| Home | Community | Message Board |
|
You are not signed in. Sign In New Account | Forum Index Search Posts Trusted Vendors Highlights Galleries FAQ User List Chat Store Random Growery » |
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.
|
| Shop: |
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,487 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 56 minutes, 34 seconds |
| ||||||
Quote: I think you will find that most countries have an extraordinarily low death rate when compared to the USA. Once again, being better than one of the worst doesn't make you good. We should not be holding up the Russian police force as a model worthy of praise simply because they kill less people than the US system. I also want to point out that this website was the only source of data I could find regarding police killings in Russia. There is a significant lack of available data regarding Russian policing (at least to an english speaker), which instills in me a sense of suspicion, not confidence. Quote: Are you suggesting that claims of violence levied by the FSB against the arrested anarchists are true? Because that's the only way you can legitimize these arrests. Quote: Yes, people in the USA are killed by the police at an extreme rate paralleled by few other countries. I hope you understand that posting a video of pro-police propaganda from Russia was not the way to effectively communicate this point. Quote: A government is illegally arresting and torturing people, and a government is also attempting to dictate what are legitimate forms of protest - and the best reason you can think up for why people might fight against this, is that they want attention? You don't think people might fight against an injust system simply because it is injust? For example, in the wake of the Québec student protests of 2012 a new law was passed that made it illegal to wear masks during a political demonstration, and forced marches to submit a planned route to police. People intentionally broke the law and were arrested over and over again - not for the attention - but because these laws were illegitimate overreach by our government. Last year saw most of the law finally repealed - but it's not over yet. We'll be back out on the streets this Saturday actually. Taking advantage of St Pats chaos to hold our annual "illegal" anti-police march in Montréal. Because the idea of asking the police for permission to protest is asinine. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/m
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,487 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 56 minutes, 34 seconds |
| ||||||
Quote: Personally, my criticism of the police system goes beyond the drug war. That definitely exasperates the issue, but it's the institution of authority and power that is the fundamental source of police corruption and violence. Here's a story: back during the Occupy days, our camp decided we needed conflict de-escalation so we got maybe a half dozen volunteers. This group received authority to command others, in the name of conflict resolution. To help this small group coordinate across a large area, they got radios. That's the background context. One morning I was washing dishes in the kitchen when I saw a food donation get delivered. It was bbq ribs; a rare delicacy at this homeless camp. There was a marshall present, who mentioned it over their radio. Before word could spread around camp by word of mouth, the marshalls heard over the radio, so they got to the kitchen first and ate most of the ribs between themselves before anyone else got there. It doesn't matter if this was an intentional conspiracy or just an unintended consequence of the radios, because the point still stands: in creating and empowering a police force above that of our citizen population, we created the situation for abuse of authority to happen. This is, in my opinion, the reality for all modern police forces. Although I recognize that it would be better to have cops against the drug war, instead of pushing for class 1 cannabis, I still believe that any person who willingly participates, supports, and/or benefits from the policing system to be a bastard.
| |||||||
|
OTD God-King Registered: 08/16/03 Posts: 67,514 Loc: Uncanny Valley |
| ||||||
Quote: And you get this from the prison death rate? That's ridiculous. The vast majority of deaths in prison are from illness. Deaths by homicide in prison are not common at all. Of those deaths, most are at the hands of other prisoners. What is your source for the claim that cops in the U.S. commit 6 times as many murders as Russian cops?
| |||||||
|
Koanist Registered: 02/26/19 Posts: 3,480 |
| ||||||
|
I still believe that any person who willingly participates, supports, and/or benefits from the policing system to be a bastard.
I generally agree. But at the same time, I think there are well-meaning cops working against the system e.g. fucked up laws and corruption. Just like there are good white human beings paying reparations to Africa. I post very aggressively against the status quo on Facebook. My work tries to kill the system from within. Having that said I'm not sure if the system can be changed from the inside. One must look beyond the system. Revolutionize. One morning I was washing dishes in the kitchen when I saw a food donation get delivered. It was bbq ribs; a rare delicacy at this homeless camp. I love you work brother. Keep shining.
| |||||||
|
Stranger Registered: 03/16/05 Posts: 32,557 Loc: California, US Last seen: 8 months, 8 days |
| ||||||
Quote: Agreed, but as you indicated above Russia is in the same general ballpark of European cops (x1.4). Quote: I don't know, but why would they just make up charges? Quote: I agree the video proves nothing, as I stated above. Quote: But they AREN'T illegally arresting people - people are knowingly protesting in unsanctioned locations, where they know they'll get arrested. Those who protest in sanctioned areas get very little attention. Quote: Of course people should protest against an injust system. And they're allowed to do that. But not in undesignated areas. Quote: I'd argue it's for the attention. There are other ways to protest a system without getting a criminal record in the process. But some people will do what gets their cause the most attention. Quote: We have similar laws in the US to what they have in Russia regarding protests and demonstrations. This is from the ACLU website: ...certain types of events require permits. For example: - A march or parade that does not stay on the sidewalk, and other events that require blocking traffic or street closure; - A large rally requiring the use of sound amplifying devices; or - A rally at certain designated parks or plazas. Many permit procedures require that the application be filed several weeks in advance of the event. You might disagree with the law, but it is the law.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
| |||||||
|
Stranger Registered: 03/16/05 Posts: 32,557 Loc: California, US Last seen: 8 months, 8 days |
| ||||||
Quote: We know, this was discussed in the Guardian article above. My source is shivas.wisdom's post. Take it up with him if you don't like it. -------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,487 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 56 minutes, 34 seconds |
| ||||||
Quote: To be fair, that number comes from comparing England and Wales highest number of deaths in custody in a decade (2018) with the only year we have information from Russia (2015) - I included this number for increased perspective. When we compare 2015 numbers directly, Russia has 2.3x the rate - a not insignificant number. Why are you interested in portraying Russian police in as benevolent of a light as possible? I also want to repeat that our only source of information regarding Russian custody deaths rates is this website, which doesn't inspire enough confidence in me to believe we can make any real conclusions about the reality of the Russian policing system. Quote: Because, as anarchists, these people are actively organizing against state authority, and false charges of terrorism and violence are a very effective way to silence political dissent. In the 21st century, there is much more precedent for false charges of terrorism levied against anarchists, than actual instances of anarchist terrorism. One of the first contemporary attempts to fabricate a far-reaching criminal conspiracy in order to frame anarchists took place in Italy in the mid-1990s, in what became known as the Marini trial. As one of the birthplaces of the original anarchist movement, Italy has always been ahead of the curve when it comes to strategies of repression. It’s worth quoting at length from the analysis of the Marini trial that anarchists published at the time, as it offered an ominous portent of everything that has followed in the years since: Quote: In 2008 and 2009, police carried out raids with the intention of establishing the existence of nationwide anarchist terror networks in France (the “Tarnac 9” case) and the United States. Neither of these efforts ultimately succeeded. In an article published by CrimethInc in 2010, “The Age of Conspiracy Charges,” where they reviewed over a dozen high-profile political conspiracy cases initiated in the US between 2004 and 2010 targeting anarchists and their associates. Several of these efforts sent people to prison for years or decades, but none of them succeeded in demonstrating any evidence of worldwide or nationwide terror networks. After the high-water mark of popular struggles in 2011, police around Europe counterattacked with another wave of attempts to invent anarchist terror networks. In late 2014 and early 2015, police in Spain and Catalunya carried out Operations Pandora and Piñata, arresting dozens of anarchists and charging many of them with being part of a terrorist group—on the basis of evidence such as their having co-published a book entitled Against Democracy. By the beginning of 2018, this attempt, too, had proved to be a dismal failure. An important factor in the defeat of this wave of repression was the broad support the defendants received throughout the Iberian peninsula, including a solidarity campaign on the theme #YoTambienSoyAnarquista (“I too am an anarchist”). Police in Czech Republic imitated the Spanish example, initiating their own Operation Fenix in April 2015. This also did not turn out well for the authorities, with the trial ending with all defendants acquitted and the state scrambling to invent new justifications to continue harassing its targets. Thanks to strenuous solidarity efforts and the laziness, incompetence, and stupidity of the police, the authorities failed to convince even their own reactionary legal officials that these fake terror networks existed. If you want more background on repression throughout Europe during this period, read “On Repression Patterns in Europe,” which offers a critical overview of repression and solidarity in six countries. Seeking to improve on all these failures, in 2017, the Russian security services introduced an innovation: using horrific methods of torture, they set out to terrorize arrestees into signing statements proclaiming their guilt themselves. Thus far, they have succeeded in forcing a half dozen people to acknowledge membership in a far-fetched “terror network” that had not actually carried out any actions. The police of all nations are interlinked in a global network. They exchange tactics, strategies, and training; innovations in one field or region are swiftly passed on to others. It is plain for all to see that governments and the models of policing that they employ have become increasingly authoritarian since the turn of the century. In this context, it’s no stretch to imagine that police in Europe and the US might emulate the Russian model for concocting a conspiracy and forcing their targets to confirm its existence by means of torture. Does this really seem hard to imagine? The tactic of forcing defendants to validate false testimony is not new to Russia, as a cursory review of the history of the USSR will show. Likewise, this is not the first time that the Russian security services have attempted to frame anarchists and anti-fascists by means of a concocted terror conspiracy. For example, during the year before the presidential elections of 2012, the Nizhny Novgorod Counter-Extremism department concocted the so-called Antifa-RASH case, in which they accused several anti-fascists of laying the groundwork for an armed coup; they even fabricated blatantly false “membership cards,” which were riddled with errors. Three of the defendants were eventually amnestied, but two remain in exile to this day. As an afterthought, this all began back when Russia was preparing to host the FIFA World Cup. Mega-projects like the World Cup offer oppressive state governments the opportunity to carry out massive new initiatives of restructuring and repression. The FSB were determined to show that they could effectively prevent terror attacks - and the easiest way to do so was to invent a threat. This is another factor that explains the new wave of repression against anarchists and antifascists in Russia. Quote: If it's such an effective attention getter, how much have you heard about the tortured anarchists and those arrested protesting the situation? Quote: Sure, and I'm saying that we have managed to get the law partially repealed by willfully violating it. Breaking the law can be effective protest. Similar to the Wobblies fighting free speech restrictions by flooding the jails. Quote: Deaths is custody is not the same thing as police murders.
| |||||||
|
Stranger Registered: 03/16/05 Posts: 32,557 Loc: California, US Last seen: 8 months, 8 days |
| ||||||
Quote: I sense the opposite. Why are you so interested in portraying Russian police in as bad a light as possible when they're significantly better than those in the US? Whatever, I think we can at least agree on the very crude numbers - roughly 6x better than US cops, and 1.4x - 2.3x worse than British cops. ![]() Quote: And I want to repeat that I've asked anyone for examples of Russian cops shooting people to death; thus far it's been surprisingly quiet. I read your story about governments keeping anarchists down. Is it not true that some anarchists advocate violence as being necessary to rid the world of exploitation? If it weren't true, then I don't think Governments would really care. Quote: I've heard more about those arrested than I ever have about the ones who protest in permitted areas. ![]() Quote: I hear you, but breaking the law can get you in trouble, and no one should be surprised if breaking the law gets them arrested. Quote: And I agreed. But you haven't been able to show evidence of murders by police in Russia thus far (I'm sure there are a few instances), and I suspect the ratio of police murders by US police is much higher than your estimate or else we'd hear a lot more about Russian police killings (which western journalists would LOVE to write about). -------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,487 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 56 minutes, 34 seconds |
| ||||||
Quote: Being better than the worst doesn't necessarily make you good. I am interested in portraying both Russian and US police in as bad a light as possible because I am interested in portraying all police in as bad a light as possible. You will find I respond in a similar way to anyone who portrays police in a positive light. I am against policing as an institution, regardless of country of origin. Full stop. Quote: I previously stated that I could find no information on police killings in Russia beyond rusebola.com. Any searches related to "Russia police murders" only brings up a slew of articles related to a serial killer Russian cop. Still, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I believe the onus is on you to provide some data regarding police murders in Russia, if you wish to make the claim that Russian police rarely commit murder. Quote: Yes, a variety of opinions are held by different anarchists; including some that openly advocate for violence as being necessary to rid the world of exploitation. Do you think that is sufficient reason for mass arrests of anyone tangentially related to anarchist communities, based on manufactured conspiracy and terrorism charges? Quote: Could you please answer more specifically: outside of our conversations on the subject, how much have you heard about the tortured anarchists and those arrested protesting the situation?
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,487 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 56 minutes, 34 seconds |
| ||||||
|
March 15th is the International Day Against Police Brutality!
Here's a photo essay to mark the day. Photos from the United States, Canada, Germany, Sweden, Czech Republic, Spain, Greece, Russia, Ukraine, Turkey, Hong Kong, Thailand, Venezuela, Brazil, and elsewhere. Police violence is not a local aberration or the hallmark of a particular brand of tyranny, but a fundamental element of a society based on property rights and the centralized authority of the state. Rather than arming hierarchical gangs, teaching them to obey unquestioningly, giving them legal impunity, and ordering them to defend the existing inequalities of our society, we can work together on a voluntary and horizontal basis to meet the needs of our communities, resolve conflicts, and defend each other from police violence. Let each person act according to the dictates of her conscience rather than deferring to authority. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
Edited by shivas.wisdom (03/16/19 12:33 AM)
| |||||||
|
Stranger Registered: 03/16/05 Posts: 32,557 Loc: California, US Last seen: 8 months, 8 days |
| ||||||
Quote: This article has a pretty good overview of US police shootings vs other countries, showing your estimates on the killings by Enland police are FAR, FAR too high. It states that "if we look at the United Kingdom, 1 person was killed by police in 2014 and 0 in 2013. English police reportedly fired guns a total of three times in all of 2013, with zero reported fatalities. From 2010 through 2014, there were four fatal police shootings in England." I suspected these kind of numbers, but didn't find them until now. Regular Russian police don't carry guns, except to emergency situations, so it's very likely their numbers are very low as well, especially considering there are so few reports of Russian police shootings. Wikipedia shows similar numbers. Quote: No, but I do believe police have a right to investigate those intending to use violence. Quote: I haven't, but the ones who break the law are the ones you're hearing about. -------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,487 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 56 minutes, 34 seconds |
| ||||||
Quote: Remember, I could only find data for "deaths in custody" for Russia, so this was also the figure I used for the UK and USA - not "police murders". Since "deaths in custody" includes all causes of death, we would assume the figure to be larger than "police murders". It is still a safe assumption that more violent policing systems will experience a greater rate of deaths in custody. Furthermore, it doesn't appear that you have provided any data on police killings in Russia either, so your claim that Russian police rarely commit murder is unsubstantiated. As you love to say: we don't make believe in the politics forum. Quote: It's odd that your only response to evidence that police engaged in campaigns of mass arrests of anyone tangentially related to anarchist communities, based on manufactured conspiracy and terrorism charges, is that "police have a right to investigate those intending to use violence". Quote: I'm hearing about the ones being tortured, regardless if they broke the law beforehand or not. It's odd that you claim these protesters are intentionally getting arrested because it makes for attention getting propaganda in the west, when you admit you have heard absolutely nothing about it through western media. Sounds like more make believe.
| |||||||
|
Stranger Registered: 03/16/05 Posts: 32,557 Loc: California, US Last seen: 8 months, 8 days |
| ||||||
Quote: I understand that the data is hard to find. But common sense tells me that police who don't carry guns commit fewer killings. Quote: I explained why I believe it's lower. I can't say it is with 100% certainty, but the fact that Russian police don't usually carry guns plus the fact that there are almost no stories of police killings in Russia leads me to guess it is lower usign common sense. Quote: YOU heard about the one getting intentionally arrested, as I already noted above. -------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
| |||||||
|
Koanist Registered: 02/26/19 Posts: 3,480 |
| ||||||
|
Now those pictures give me mad fuel to riot.
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,487 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 56 minutes, 34 seconds |
| ||||||
Quote: I'm sure you'll appreciate that "police who don't carry guns commit fewer killings" is a different claim from your earlier one that "the number of killings by Russian police is extremely low". Quote: I agree that the USA policing system has one of the highest rates of police murders, and so by extension it is a safe assumption that Russia's police murders are likely to be lower. Once again, this is still a different conclusion from the initial claim that "the number of killings by Russian police is extremely low". Quote: It's not a strong position in a debate to be trying to make believe about my personal experience. The anarchist torture cases that I have heard about, and that I have spoken about here, were not precipitated by people going to protest in "undesignated protest areas" (a nebulous term you have neglected to define further) - they were people simply going about their lives.
| |||||||
|
Snitterbundem The Dirty Registered: 12/07/13 Posts: 14,480 Last seen: 5 minutes, 45 seconds |
| ||||||
|
I liked your photo essay. The picture quality of those photos was excellent too! One thing I'll never understand, why do police pepper spray people, when they are lined up, sitting down on the ground?
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell Every one of you should see this video. "Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,487 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 56 minutes, 34 seconds |
| ||||||
|
I plagiarized it from crimethinc.com, they have some quality production.
I don't think I could ever understand the police mindset, but I imagine getting pumped up on adrenaline and holding weapons while standing with your gang against the enemy is enough to inspire unprovoked attacks.
| |||||||
|
Snitterbundem The Dirty Registered: 12/07/13 Posts: 14,480 Last seen: 5 minutes, 45 seconds |
| ||||||
Quote: Self-righteous indignation, power tripping, and I think in bigger cities a lot of them are on steroids. Some cops are just fucking jacked man! I loved that picture you showed of the people holding donuts on a stick lol! I was talking to a former army special forces douchebag at the bar the other day. We almost got into a fight, actually. He kept bashing 'lazy socialists', and finally I told him I was a socialist, and half the bar jumped right up my asshole. As he got more drunk, he got belligerent about it. Anyway, he kept referring to himself as an 'alpha male'. 'Alpha males punch eachother in the face as a sign of respect'... or some other nonsense like that. I think that police view themselves in a similar manor. They are 'alpha tough guys', and they like to dominate other people. I find the concept of 'alpha males' troubling. I don't know that it has any basis in reality. -------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell Every one of you should see this video. "Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns
| |||||||
|
Stranger Registered: 03/16/05 Posts: 32,557 Loc: California, US Last seen: 8 months, 8 days |
| ||||||
Quote: Agreed, it's not the same. I'll give anyone 5 shrooms if they can show the number of people killed by Russian police each year. I'll bet it's less than 5/yr outside the Caucuses and less than 10/yr in total, as there are so few articles about Russian cop killings. I did find this article: "...in all the 23 years of post-Soviet Russian history not a single peaceful OR violent protestor has ever been shot at... I bring to the reader’s attention – in the event it was overlooked – that the articles in which the criticism of the amendments to the Russian law appeared were published in the RUSSIAN and Russian-language daily, Nezavismaya gazeta, published in ‘Putin’s fascist Russia’" showing that you're allowed to be critical of the Russian Government in Russia. Quote: Actually I defined a "designated protest area" above and noted that Russia has similar laws. You can protest all you want in Russia if you get a permit and don't disrupt other events. -------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side. Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (03/16/19 12:45 PM)
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,487 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 56 minutes, 34 seconds |
| ||||||
Quote: I think you should stop trying to shift the burden of proof. If you want to claim Russia has less than 10 police murders a year, you have to provide proof. We don't make believe in the politics forum. Although no source is provided, that article appears to support the claim that Russian police rarely shoot people if we assume it to be true. Still, I need to point out that "...in all the 23 years of post-Soviet Russian history not a single peaceful OR violent protestor has ever been shot at..." is a heavily qualified statement. Shooting people is not the only way to cause injury or death, nor will every Russian civilian be considered a protester. No protester getting shot in 23 years is not the equivalent to no police murder in 23 years. Quote: Fair enough, I missed your associating the American restrictions to protest with those in Russia. Now you need to show how the tortured anarchists were initially arrested for violating the designated protest policy, if you want to continue with your claim that Russians are intentionally violating this policy, then getting arrested and tortured, all in order to create attention-grabbing propaganda for western audiences.
| |||||||
| |||||||
| Shop: |
|
| Similar Threads | Poster | Views | Replies | Last post | ||
![]() |
The official Communist thread ( |
1,210 | 20 | 09/04/10 12:18 AM by Prisoner#1 | ||
![]() |
Jealousy of our freedoms and way of living? | 2,720 | 19 | 04/09/04 01:41 AM by Phred | ||
![]() |
2nd amendment to justify shooting pigs? ( |
13,940 | 131 | 09/19/02 01:08 PM by francisco | ||
![]() |
War Pigs | 418 | 2 | 03/18/03 02:40 AM by zeronio | ||
![]() |
Pigs Attack California Anti-War Protesters ( |
4,995 | 71 | 04/09/03 03:22 AM by Paid | ||
![]() |
NSW Police are PIGS | 612 | 2 | 08/03/06 07:40 AM by quiver | ||
![]() |
TRUMP 2024 ( |
300,925 | 25,387 | 05/16/24 01:00 PM by Bigbadwooof | ||
![]() |
So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? ( |
15,056 | 292 | 06/11/16 11:06 AM by DustJuice |
| Extra information | ||
| You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa 40,330 topic views. 0 members, 3 guests and 14 web crawlers are browsing this forum. [ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ] | ||

You might disagree with the law, but it is the law.
























































