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stew248
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The Iraq situation
#2543256 - 04/09/04 12:16 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Anyone fallowing the situation in Iraq this morning? Wow It just keeps getting better and better over there. Bush made a comment like "Those people hate freedom, and we love freedom, thats where we clash. ::nervous dopey bush laugh::". My question is, shouldn?t they have fucking known that before going in there???? Face it we liberated a bunch of fucking savages. Those people diserved saddam hussain. June 30th we should give the keys to Iraq back to him. Those people weren?t willing to fight for them selfs when saddam was killing them off by the thousands, but they?ll fight against us.
Dude to be honest, before the war I was all for going in there. I was so nieve to think that our government wouldn?t try to pass that big of a bullshit story on us. But honestly, no chemical biological weapons and nothing resembling anything nuclear. So he was NOT a threat to us. I also belived that the Iraq people would welcome us. I feel stupid, and im pissed off that bush made me look stupid, and the rest of the country. When I look at the picture of the dead americans hanging from that bridge, it makes me think, fuck saddam wasn?t that bad of a guy. He had the right idea when it came to rulling that pack of animals that lives over there. Now I wana get a petition going and get signatures to drag Donald Rumsfeild outside in back of the pentagon and beat him with a fucking hose.
Another thing, I hear these republican types like Sean Hannity (I fucking hate sean hannity with a fucking passion) saying "well clinton said they had wmd too so la de da". The differnce is Clinton did not send 100000 troops over there to get blown up 10 a day. He just lobed cruse missles at the suspected targets. When Clinton did that the republicans were like "what the hell?!? We have more important business right now like talking about you cumming all over that fat pig with the barret"
And finaly, the greatful Iraqis welcoming us....
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Divided_Sky
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Re: The Iraq situation [Re: stew248]
#2543341 - 04/09/04 12:32 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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DOn't be so easy to believe what you see in the media. Most Iraqis are happy Saddam is gone and don't mind the Americans are around. I think there was a Zogby (or Gallup poll) taken of Iraqis that said %70 were glad the US had gotten rid of Saddam, and the majority were glad we were around to keep the peace. The news media tries to make the most sensational stories by taking anecdotes of isolated terrorists to make you thing that kind of thing is widespread. It's not. They only want you to see the bad. Sometimes I feel the you way do, but I realize that it's just a few nut cases making trouble, and it is not the whole story. There are grateful Iraqis, but all the anti-war people in the press don't want you to see them. I know alot of people that supported the war that are backing down because of what they see and hear in the papers and on tv, but if you look there are alot of positive stories too. Don't let them brainwash you to believe otherwise.
-------------------- 1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..." 2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..." 3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
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Re: The Iraq situation [Re: Divided_Sky]
#2543368 - 04/09/04 12:36 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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The news media tries to make the most sensational stories by taking anecdotes of isolated terrorists to make you thing that kind of thing is widespread. It's not. They only want you to see the bad.
Perhaps, but are the 600 dead Americans merely headline-grabbing anecdotes?
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
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Divided_Sky
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Re: The Iraq situation [Re: Swami]
#2543421 - 04/09/04 12:47 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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What matters is the context it is framed in: 600 American soldiers who died to accomplish something good, who died doing something meaninful, or 600 American soldiers that are dead for no reason at all, accomplished nothing and only made things worse. IMO the press likes to present the latter reality.
-------------------- 1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..." 2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..." 3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."
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Xlea321
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Re: The Iraq situation [Re: Divided_Sky]
#2543427 - 04/09/04 12:48 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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What "meaningful" thing have they died for?
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Ekstaza
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Re: The Iraq situation [Re: Swami]
#2543431 - 04/09/04 12:49 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Swami said: The news media tries to make the most sensational stories by taking anecdotes of isolated terrorists to make you thing that kind of thing is widespread. It's not. They only want you to see the bad.
Perhaps, but are the 600 dead Americans merely headline-grabbing anecdotes?
To some people, yes.
-------------------- YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.
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Divided_Sky
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Re: The Iraq situation [Re: Xlea321]
#2543445 - 04/09/04 12:51 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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A similar situation is the "Apartheid Wall" that is being built in Israel. In every single picture you see a giant concrete wall, but in reality 97% is a fence and only a tiny stetch is made of concrete to prevent snipers from shooting Israeli motorists. And yet, there are NO pictures of the other 97% on the TV news, in the papers, in the yahoo photo slideshow, etc. If one did not know better they would believe the whole thing was a giant concrete wall. Thanks to our freinds in the press.
-------------------- 1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..." 2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..." 3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."
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Xlea321
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Re: The Iraq situation [Re: Divided_Sky]
#2543462 - 04/09/04 12:54 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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The american press are biased in favour of Palestine???
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EchoVortex
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Re: The Iraq situation [Re: Divided_Sky]
#2543514 - 04/09/04 01:00 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Divided_Sky said: What matters is the context it is framed in: 600 American soldiers who died to accomplish something good, who died doing something meaninful, or 600 American soldiers that are dead for no reason at all, accomplished nothing and only made things worse. IMO the press likes to present the latter reality.
Yeah, I like it too when other people die for things I consider good and meaningful. Saves me the trouble of dying for the things I consider good and meangingful.
Say, do you consider the war in Iraq good and meaningful? What's that? "Yes!" you say? Well, boy, have I got a proposition for you . . .
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grib
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Re: The Iraq situation [Re: Divided_Sky]
#2543739 - 04/09/04 01:45 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
DOn't be so easy to believe what you see in the media. Most Iraqis are happy Saddam is gone and don't mind the Americans are around. I think there was a Zogby (or Gallup poll) taken of Iraqis that said %70 were glad the US had gotten rid of Saddam
Don't believe the media but do believe a Zogby or Gallup poll? While I whole-heartedly agree that you should believe little of what is shown or told by most U.S media outlets why should one believe a Zogby or Gallup poll?
Quote:
but in reality 97% is a fence...
That makes it so much better doesn't it? 40 feet concrete wall or 9 feet wire fence topped with constantin wire... Don't both serve the same purpose?
-------------------- <~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>
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stew248
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Re: The Iraq situation [Re: Divided_Sky]
#2544121 - 04/09/04 04:10 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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They might be glad to see saddam gone. But there not glad to see us. The fact is the so called Iraqis who are on our side, when the first hint of trouble comes they abadon there post. They are not willing to fight for freedom because tehy don't want it. We should not try to force it on them neither. But we can't have Iraq deterioriating into a terrorist state. So we have to stay there. I say we give saddam a bath, shave and a haircut, and 5,000 more liters of anthrax and let him rule his country. Those people need a crazy ass brutal dictatorship to keep them in line.
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: The Iraq situation [Re: stew248]
#2544149 - 04/09/04 04:16 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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I really think your selling the Iraq people short....they dont need Saddam with anthrax to rule them.
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stew248
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Re: The Iraq situation [Re: DieCommie]
#2544319 - 04/09/04 05:05 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Maybe your right, but do you have any recomendations for the job? He kept those people in line for decades. The point is we shouldn't be dieing to give the Iraqi people a better life that they don't want.
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: The Iraq situation [Re: stew248]
#2544365 - 04/09/04 05:23 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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A little off topic...but what they need is there own form of "protestant revolution". Sure they dont want it, but it would be better for them anyway. People dont always want whats best for them....very odd...
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Divided_Sky
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Re: The Iraq situation [Re: EchoVortex]
#2544390 - 04/09/04 05:30 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
EchoVortex said:
Quote:
Divided_Sky said: What matters is the context it is framed in: 600 American soldiers who died to accomplish something good, who died doing something meaninful, or 600 American soldiers that are dead for no reason at all, accomplished nothing and only made things worse. IMO the press likes to present the latter reality.
Yeah, I like it too when other people die for things I consider good and meaningful. Saves me the trouble of dying for the things I consider good and meangingful. Say, do you consider the war in Iraq good and meaningful? What's that? "Yes!" you say? Well, boy, have I got a proposition for you . . .
What I'm saying is people don't gripe about casualties if they think it accomplished something, look at world war II. Of course we have to remember the dead and their sacrifices, and the horrors of war, but we don't always have to bitch. The difference is that most people believe WWII was worth fighting for. If you convince the public Iraq is NOT worth fighting for then our soldiers are dying in vain. I don't believe they are, and I think the attempt to make their successes (in restoring order, infrastructure, health care, economy, and securing democracy)look like defeat disrespects them and their sacrifice. If you are so much about putting your mouth where your money is why don't you go become a human shield? If I don't have the grounds to support our troops you don't have the grounds to criticize them.
-------------------- 1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..." 2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..." 3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."
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Divided_Sky
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Re: The Iraq situation [Re: grib]
#2544420 - 04/09/04 05:43 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
grib said: Don't believe the media but do believe a Zogby or Gallup poll? While I whole-heartedly agree that you should believe little of what is shown or told by most U.S media outlets why should one believe a Zogby or Gallup poll?
Although a poll is never completely accurate, it is alot more representative of reality than a tv camera, as it uses statistical data rather than attention getting pictures and anecdotes to make its case. I've met alot of people who think that America is all gun fights and car chases because it is what they see on TV. If you took a poll you would find that in fact very few Americans are involved in gun battles or car chases. It is much safer to make a generalization from statistics than from stories and anecdotes. Moreover, there is far less editorial process in statistics than with journalism (albeit polls are subject to often very bias interpretations) I trust the what the poll says over the news even more becuase the mainstream media more or less ignored it.
Quote:
That makes it so much better doesn't it? 40 feet concrete wall or 9 feet wire fence topped with constantin wire... Don't both serve the same purpose?
That is peripheral. What we are talking about is the use of images as propaganda. A 40ft tall wall is a much more powerful symbol than a fence. When journalists choose to exclude the reality that almost all of it is a fence and not a wall they are distorting the public's perception and reaction of the situation.
-------------------- 1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..." 2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..." 3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."
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silversoul7
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Re: The Iraq situation [Re: Divided_Sky]
#2544430 - 04/09/04 05:48 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
If you took a poll you would find that in fact very few Americans are involved in gun battles or car chases. It is much safer to make a generalization from statistics than from stories and anecdotes.
Statistically, the US has the highest violent crime rate of any developed country.
-------------------- "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Divided_Sky
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Re: The Iraq situation [Re: silversoul7]
#2544455 - 04/09/04 05:56 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
silversoul7 said: Statistically, the US has the highest violent crime rate of any developed country.
South Africa? But that is beside the point...
You can't argue that car chases and gun battles happen all the time in the US, because they don't. TV is not representative of reality, otherwise we would all be really good looking.
-------------------- 1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..." 2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..." 3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."
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grib
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Re: The Iraq situation [Re: Divided_Sky]
#2544542 - 04/09/04 06:17 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Although a poll is never completely accurate, it is alot more representative of reality than a tv camera, as it uses statistical data rather than attention getting pictures and anecdotes to make its case.
I agree that a poll is never completely accurate. Being representative though? How is the poll being conducted? Are they telephoning the residents of Baghdad? If so, that doesn't seem like it would be representative of a population where, according to the CIA factbook on Iraq, one in 36.5 people have telephones. If they are compiling their information by going door-to-door, OK, you may be correct if they are going into every sector of the population.
Quote:
I've met alot of people who think that America is all gun fights and car chases because it is what they see on TV.
No doubts there. I've met people who think that because of the sky-scrapers we have no sunlight on our city streets. These were simple villagers though.
Quote:
(albeit polls are subject to often very bias interpretations)
Quote:
A 40ft tall wall is a much more powerful symbol than a fence.
Such a shame isn't it? The same result yet the 'perceptions' are quite different. (those villagers...)**sigh**
-------------------- <~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>
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grib
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Re: The Iraq situation [Re: Divided_Sky]
#2544613 - 04/09/04 06:34 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
it is alot more representative of reality than a tv camera
BTW, are you talking about TV in the United States? If so, you should see what's shown on TV in other countries!
Divided, TV in the U.S is (self?) censored much more than in other countries. We see little of the reality in Iraq on TV here in the United States.
-------------------- <~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>
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Phred
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Re: The Iraq situation [Re: grib]
#2545167 - 04/09/04 09:03 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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grib asks:
How is the poll being conducted? Are they telephoning the residents of Baghdad?
No. All the polls done so far in Iraq have been face-to-face.
pinky
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Baby_Hitler
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Re: The Iraq situation [Re: Phred]
#2545171 - 04/09/04 09:06 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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When will they be done face to voting booth I wonder.
-------------------- "America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat “Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.” -- Thomas Jefferson The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance. The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)
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Phred
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Re: The Iraq situation [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#2545174 - 04/09/04 09:07 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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My guess is it will be a while longer. Another year, maybe.
pinky
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Baby_Hitler
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Re: The Iraq situation [Re: Phred]
#2545188 - 04/09/04 09:12 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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I wonder what would happen if we let the Iraqi people vote on this issue today:
Would you prefer for the coalition forces to remain in your country or to leave immediately?
- Please stay.
- Get the hell out.
-------------------- "America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat “Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.” -- Thomas Jefferson The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance. The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)
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EchoVortex
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Re: The Iraq situation [Re: Divided_Sky]
#2545737 - 04/10/04 01:11 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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If you are so much about putting your mouth where your money is why don't you go become a human shield? If I don't have the grounds to support our troops you don't have the grounds to criticize them.
Stupid analogy. You're the one who is trying to put a positive spin on ripping people's lives away from them. You are the one who is claiming that it is acceptable to use the lives of other people as means to an end you consider worthwhile. I oppose using other people's lives as means to an end, so why is it incumbent upon me to use my own life as a means? It just doesn't follow.
Furthermore, I am not criticizing the troops--I'm criticizing the administration. You realize, I hope, that there is a difference?
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stew248
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Re: The Iraq situation [Re: EchoVortex]
#2545997 - 04/10/04 05:50 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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The troops are just doing there job. They should definantly be supported. Its the bush admin. that fucked up. Bush should be voted out of office. While the troops are getting killed george bush is down on vacation in his crawford ranch having a goddam sleep.
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Divided_Sky
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Re: The Iraq situation [Re: grib]
#2546994 - 04/10/04 06:51 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
grib said:
Divided, TV in the U.S is (self?) censored much more than in other countries. We see little of the reality in Iraq on TV here in the United States.
I agree the US TV is censored to a large degree, but I think it is largely out of ethical consideration for our soldiers and their families. Also, it makes it more difficult for terrorists to use violence as propaganda.
Regarding the reality we see on TV in the US, it is simply a different one than people in other countries see. I am quite familiar with British, New Zealand and Australian TV news programs and the difference is editorial. Given the choice the BBC reporters will try to show more negative than the US news sources, but each ommits the same amount of information. Reality is complex, and when journalists bring us the news they pick and choose what we see. This is determined by the bias of the journalists. In many countries where the cool thing is to hate America the bias is very apparent. Take the BBC, which hires all its reporters from the Gaurdian, they have publicly proclaimed to be against the war. When they show angry Iraqis, you aren't seeing anything more realistic than what's on American TV, just more anti-American. In the US where we don't like too much self criticism we censor things in different ways. Neither is truly accurate.
Fortunately, in America since the press is against the President, but nor necessarily against the war it is possible for a little more honest perspective, even if it is censored.
-------------------- 1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..." 2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..." 3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."
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stew248
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Re: The Iraq situation [Re: Divided_Sky]
#2548191 - 04/11/04 04:59 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Have you ever watched the fox news channel?
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Divided_Sky
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Re: The Iraq situation [Re: stew248]
#2548776 - 04/11/04 02:12 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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I don't get cable. I know Fox News has a strong right leaning, but I think it is sort of a counter-bias to everything else. They are just one channel that gets lots of ratings because it as a monopoly on all the conservatives who don't trust any of the other channels. They don't really represent the bulk of mass media in this country. That's like saying Air America represents talk radio.
-------------------- 1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..." 2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..." 3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."
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