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Humble Newcomer
Diddler de niños



Registered: 03/12/17
Posts: 1,483
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Plumbing help needed (toilet Install)
#25398355 - 08/19/18 11:51 AM (5 years, 5 months ago) |
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Hello, I'm hoping for help from a plumber or anyone more experienced than me really.
I have a 3" toilet drain, a 3" inside fit closet flange and 3/4" plywood subfloors.
I installed a 6mil vapor barrier on the plywood then installed vinyl plank flooring. Baseboards are on.
I initially glued the closet flange into the drain pipe, rotated it a bit as i slid it down flush ON TOP of my finished floor. Clocked it, screwed it throigh the vinyl into the subfloor.

Upon mounting and leveling the toilet, I noticed it rocked. Not a whole lot it felt like I could tighten the toilet screws more vut i couldn't get it all out. I decided to remove the toilet, cut out the closet flange, and cut out the finished floor around closet flange, letting me slide it down another 1/8" down to the subfloor and screwing in.
Well today I did that. I even took a sander and beveled the subfloor kinda like a shower drain with a 45 to help the flange sit just a hair below the top of subfloor surface. Mounted it all back up, tbe toilet still has a tiny rock.
I start looking up how to install closet flanges maybe I missed something obvious, but no, most places I'm reading say to mount the flange on top of finished floor. Which means I've gone a step beyond most of them by lowering the flange another 1/8" in relation to the finished floor.
Now I'm reading a ton of things like people put grout or at least caulking u derneath or sometimes two tiny shims. I've seen tiny plastic toilet shims at home Depot.
Is this normal? Where did i mess up? On average, what height do you insist your toilet flanges? All toilets are universal as far as their throat depth right, this isn't an issue where my toilets flat base is different heighr compared to it's throat outlet(where wax ring attaches) ad compared to othwr toilets is it? Surely thats universal. Can I use a few tiny wedges around the toilet to wedge it up and eliminate the rock?
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Humble Newcomer
Diddler de niños



Registered: 03/12/17
Posts: 1,483
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I pulled the toilet again fully prepared tocut off the second closet flange amd sand halfway down thru the 3/4 subfloor and recess the closet flange down in there, initially I duckduckgo'ed if I was an idiot and was supposed Todo that in the first place but the one thing I have NOT read was to grind out a recessed hole in yiur subfloor to sink the flange in like a counterbore. It's not a lot of rock but I don't want any. Would be easier to shim, but I need to learn what's going wrong here
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Kwyjibo
Stranger

Registered: 07/31/18
Posts: 1,261
Loc: California
Last seen: 26 minutes
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Shim it. Most toilets aren't completely flat on the bottom and will rock unless shimmed.
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psillyboy
Florida man



Registered: 09/26/14
Posts: 581
Loc: In the 60's
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I've installed many a toilet. Most toilets do not sit flush and rock. get some plastic shims (or pound some copper tubing flat). Shim under the bottom till level and steady then grout the gap. Grouting the toilet will stop the rocking. but shimming it first is the correct way to do it.
-------------------- "True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country - K. Vonnegut “The real truth, that dare not speak itself, is that no one is in control. Absolutely no one.” ― Terence McKenna "LSD is a psychedelic drug which occasionally causes psychotic behavior in people who have never taken it." - Timothy Leary
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LIBERTYNY
Stranger

Registered: 04/07/16
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Re: Plumbing help needed (toilet Install) [Re: psillyboy]
#25408854 - 08/23/18 10:16 PM (5 years, 5 months ago) |
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First off the toilet flange is typically 1/4" to 3/8" above the finished floor height. But the wax / neoprene / putty gasket should eazly make up the difference without leaking.
bathroom floors are notoriously bad with all the moisture.
Grout the toliet down, First remove the toilet again replacing the ring, and set it in a pile of grout or plaster being carefull not to get any on the ring, Sponge up the excess, Level let dry and come back and give it another quater turn to lock down securly. The plaster is nice cause its dry in 5-10 minutes but is Bright wight.
If you use anything to shim it make sure it wont rot like wood will.
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Grey Fox

Registered: 01/22/15
Posts: 2,652
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Re: Plumbing help needed (toilet Install) [Re: LIBERTYNY]
#25409006 - 08/24/18 12:10 AM (5 years, 5 months ago) |
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A lot of times the rocking comes from the floor not being completely level. Thats especially a problem with tile that hasnt been installed carefully around the flange.
It was probably a good idea to mount the flange directly to the sub floor. Use an extra wax ring (without the plastic bottom) to build the wax up higher if you need to. You want to feel that your pushing it down solidly into a good amount of wax when you seat it onto the flange.
Caulk has always worked for me to eliminate minor rocking. Even if its so bad that you have to use shims its still probably a good idea to caulk the base since its sitting on wood flooring.
Also that water supply is in an awkward spot. And didnt you want to couple the pex to a short piece of copper pipe to attach the valve too?
-------------------- IT WAS ALL A DREAM
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Humble Newcomer
Diddler de niños



Registered: 03/12/17
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Re: Plumbing help needed (toilet Install) [Re: Grey Fox]
#25412099 - 08/25/18 09:21 AM (5 years, 5 months ago) |
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Wow, thanks for the replies everyone I'm parked at the hardware store reading.
Grey fox, yes the pex is in a weird spot because of the 2x4 framing behind the sheetrock, I punched a different hole in the wall i had to patch because I was unable to run the pex neatly thru those angles so I punched the second hole u see and patched the first. Not ideal, but no one will notice. If i had more foresight i would have plotted out how i was going to run it and possibly notch a stud before sheetrock for perfect routing - next time.
I did not put a shut off valve at the toilet itself, very uncommon im sure, good eye, I did that because I have a shutoff valve for each consumer at the pex manifold central in my house (guess I removed that pic but I have 3/4 pex city water coming into a manifold where it splits into 20 invidual pex circuits with quarter turn shut off valves. I did have to install two in line shutoff valves in that system to be able to isolate water heater from circuit)
Thats both a relief and a thought provoker that the flange should be installed above bathroom finished floor.
My main concern here is two fold, do a quality job here and also learn how to fly thru it next time, amd I've been reading a lot of professionals glue in the flange on the rough in, before any flooring is installed sometimes. Ive read they inquire about tyoe of flooring and maybe shim the flange up if tile is to be used. So plotting it in a specific spot with math should be very possible across the board.
I initially thought I could squeeze all the vertical travel out by compressing the wax ring, and i did remove a ton, but it wasn't quite enough. I was thinking like grey fox a bit, in troubleshooting mode anyway, that next time maybe I should always install directly to the subfloor because that shifts my acceptable window of compression doen to the floor, you can always Compress a wax ring less if you needed to...
This flooring isn't perfect for sure, I had "professional" help and we had to replace carrier beams in this restroom due to a failed water heater in tbe hallway maybe 30 years back that was never addressed. It rotted out ten feet behind the water heater closet, half tje bathroom support beams. the first guy was fired because he didn't even notice the subfloor wasnt level across the whole room when he screwed it to the carrier beams (whaaat) and the second guy helped me make wood wedge shims to level out the subfloor top pieces but it's not perfect.
Plus the bathroom went through a redesign after the hurricane and I moved the toilet which meant I cut out a section of subfloor that had the old toilet stub Hole and I replaced that 3x3 square with another solid piece of 3/4 subfloor but nothing ever matched up in this old house. I screwed it down, caulked the gaps, and ran the drum sander over all the edges and transitions before installing the 6mil vapor barrier and vinyl plank.
As a nitpicker, I can still feel the variations when i babystep all over rhe floor.
So I think today is my last chamce. I've been eaten up by anxiety all week, mainly because after messing with it so much I can feel the PVC joint under floor starting to loosen up a little, there's a lot of leverage at play when you're rocking a closet flange around on a toilet stub pipe.
Im going to bolt the flange to tbe subfloor today (to clarify about the sanding a 45 in the subfloor, this flange has a "knurl" all around it that sits on the subfloor and that leaves the flange elevated a hair above the floor and I sought to bring that down flush) and put a new wax ring and install the toilet. Hopefully I can find the tiny white plastic shims I've seen, I'm worried about them sliding out over time so somethinf would need to be done additionally.
If the rock is tiny would caulk alone should suffice I hope? I grouted/concreted the shower pan to the subfloor and that's my only experience with it
Thanks everyone reassurance is nice
Edited by Humble Newcomer (08/25/18 10:28 AM)
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Humble Newcomer
Diddler de niños



Registered: 03/12/17
Posts: 1,483
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Humble Newcomer
Diddler de niños



Registered: 03/12/17
Posts: 1,483
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Liberty - I think I understand what youre saying, remove toilet, replace closet flange, put small bed of grout on finished floor, stab toilet, install hardware and bring flush and level, sponge excess, wipe clean with sponge, after dry tighten another quarter turn.
I don't have much experience with grouting and stabbing appliances, especially solo I feel like id make a huge mess but if i worj fast i shouldn't ruin the floor. I think k ill have to do this the next time i have that much rock after a flange is installed on top the finished floor. The rock has been reduced by half or more since lowering closet flange again, I'm hoping I can get away wirh caulk this time.
I'm not experienced with grout are there different kinds, some to avoid in this application, maybe an optimium kind even?
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Humble Newcomer
Diddler de niños



Registered: 03/12/17
Posts: 1,483
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Wow. So I just stabbed the toilet back down. Measured for center with a tape amd a level for plumb amd I tightened down on the two toilet bolts.
After it was tight and level I was happy to see no shim needed on front of toilet but to my chagrin I lost a shim under thw toilet in the back - I just shoved it in and it went alllll the way, disappeared under bowl. So I have a large area only in the back that requires two shims together like a wedge and them push that wedge in.
Surprisingly, with no shims it rocks only a hair and in all directions kinda. Even though the gap is huge in back and small in front. But with wedge it tightens up quite fast. Huge difference
What I'm gathering from this is y'all are dead right for one, regardless of all my extra work to ensure squareness pf the pipe amd the flange, the Bott of toilet sits very uneven on the floor. So uneven I'm quite certain that's not all the floors fault - I'm convinced now rhat I should expect to shim / grout on every install.
I feel very confident making one more doublestacked shim for the other side of the back (I'm not pulling the toilet for a 5th time to get those 0.50 wedges, I'll buy more later) and then I'll fill the gap eith caulk, force it in the gap with my finger all around amd wipe excess. Hopefully this will eliminate minor rocking that could force wedges out.
I've also read you're only supposed to caulk around front and sides, to leave back open kinda like a weep hole to tell if Bottom seal leaks over the years so I'll try that, plus it's hella hard to get back there anyway.
Thank y'all so much. I don't handle failure well, the anxiety wasn't from repeatedly pulling the toilet, im anything but lazy, it stemmed from each time loosening up my PVC welds underneath and each time not knowinf what the fuck to do..... Sigh
Today may be the first good day all week, I need to spool my momentum back up. Nexttime I look forward to not cutting into my final floor to lower flange and getting one step closer to the pros, but in a pinch or one of those situations, this will work perfectly fine too.

(Grey fox, bonus, the weird pex placement and lack of valve make the piping invisible )
Thanks again shroomerites
(Update, more shims installed, two double stacked shim "wedges" in the back and two more shims at about center of the sides. Rock solid now. I'm awash with relief.)
Edited by Humble Newcomer (08/25/18 12:27 PM)
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Grey Fox

Registered: 01/22/15
Posts: 2,652
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Looks good! Congrats on a job well done.
-------------------- IT WAS ALL A DREAM
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