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OfflineEchoVortex
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Geolibertarianism
    #2539286 - 04/08/04 03:09 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Just encountered this word for the first time in mushmaster's reply to the survey, and it looks rather interesting. If you're leaning in that direction, mushmaster, I say lean full tilt. "Royal" libertarianism is a mug's game.

Found this website:

http://geolib.com/welcome.html


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Offlinephi1618
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Re: Geolibertarianism [Re: EchoVortex]
    #2539321 - 04/08/04 03:15 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

This includes the fruits of mental labor and the results of reinvestment of legitimate private property (capital) in future production.




So, they support intelectual property rights. However, they oppose "information monopolies". What the hell?
I think intelectual property could use some hard rethinking - but I'm not sure what form it should ultimately take.

There are various catagories of property:
physical goods vs. information
manufactured goods vs. land and natural resources

Should land be owned? How extensive should an individual's right to do whatever they hell they want (dump waste?) on their land be?

Hell if I know.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Geolibertarianism [Re: EchoVortex]
    #2539371 - 04/08/04 03:26 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Geolibertarian right here, and proud of it. It helps that my uncle happens to be one of the leading experts on Georgist economics.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Geolibertarianism [Re: phi1618]
    #2539379 - 04/08/04 03:29 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

So, they support intelectual property rights. However, they oppose "information monopolies". What the hell?
I think intelectual property could use some hard rethinking - but I'm not sure what form it should ultimately take.



Information is not the product of one's labor or creativity. It exists independently of anyone. Intellectual property is that which is created by one's mind. This includes literature, art, poetry, music, etc.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: Geolibertarianism [Re: phi1618]
    #2539386 - 04/08/04 03:33 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I wasn't endorsing everything in the site by any means . . . just thought it's an interesting take on libertarianism, worthy of further study.

I think they support intellectual property rights because thought (which produces intellectual material or property) is a function of labor whereas land is nature's bounty. I think intellectual property rights--in some form--are worth protecting because very often that's the only way for many people who don't have land or capital actually to sustain a livelihood and it also gives impetus and incentive to intellectual innovation.

On the other hand, most intellectual property is generated using tools that exist in the public domain, such as language and mathematical symbols and various theories and discoveries that predate intellectual property law--which muddies the waters a bit. Also, claiming to "own" something like the map of the human genome is patently absurd.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Geolibertarianism [Re: silversoul7]
    #2539397 - 04/08/04 03:35 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

What about the human Genome? That required work to decipher, but the information existed long before it was readable by humans.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Geolibertarianism [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2539420 - 04/08/04 03:42 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
What about the human Genome? That required work to decipher, but the information existed long before it was readable by humans.



I think Echovortex already answered that:
Quote:

Also, claiming to "own" something like the map of the human genome is patently absurd.




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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Geolibertarianism [Re: silversoul7]
    #2539432 - 04/08/04 03:45 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

oic


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Offlinephi1618
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Re: Geolibertarianism [Re: silversoul7]
    #2539506 - 04/08/04 04:01 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Information is not the product of one's labor or creativity.




I don't agree. Anything that can be encoded in bits is information, including music, art, software, etc.

When I download a song on Soulseek, am I sharing information or infringing intelectula property rights?

As it is, I think I'm doing both...

I think there is a clear difficulty in any law which restricts the sharing of information, which is a natural and beneficial action. At the same time, I think that artists, computer programmers, inventors, etc. deserve to be compensated for their work - though I think that Bill Gates is far richer than he deserves, and that his wealth is the result of a flaw in our system that grants automatic "information monopolies".





I think the land issue is important, too, and I'm no more ceartain on it, but I haven't given it enough thought. I just started reading Wages of Labor by Henry George, to get some background in the thinking on this issue...


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Anonymous

Re: Geolibertarianism [Re: EchoVortex]
    #2539614 - 04/08/04 04:25 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

this is pretty good:

A Geolibertarian FAQ


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: Geolibertarianism [Re: EchoVortex]
    #2542215 - 04/09/04 04:26 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quick question for those who know something about this topic:

It occurred to me that the whole land tax idea puts quite a lot of pressure on landowners to develop their land commercially. In fact, some people might have no choice but to develop their land just to cover the tax even though they would rather leave it wild. Doesn't sound terribly "green" to me.

Am I off-base on this? What could be done to prevent rampant overdevelopment?

Like I said, I'm interested in studying this system further, but at the same time I'm afraid I'm already past the age to get very excited about new political systems. People do whatever they want anyway, finding ways around whatever system they claim to adhere to, so once again you're left with the people: their culture, their character, and their education. A nation is ultimately made up of people, not principles--something many Americans tend to forget since the only "glue" we have binding us together are the founding myths of the republic.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Geolibertarianism [Re: EchoVortex]
    #2542970 - 04/09/04 12:14 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I'm not sure I see where you're coming from. The LVT is only a tax on the income earned from one's land, so developing the land more would simply incur more taxes.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: Geolibertarianism [Re: silversoul7]
    #2543040 - 04/09/04 12:53 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
I'm not sure I see where you're coming from. The LVT is only a tax on the income earned from one's land, so developing the land more would simply incur more taxes.




I had understood LVT to be a tax on the actual assessed value of the land itself, and not on income from the land--which, for clarity's sake, really ought to be called something like Land Income Tax.

Here's a quote from George himself:

"We propose--leaving land in the private possession of individuals, with full liberty on their part to give, sell or bequeath it--simply to levy on it for public uses a tax that shall equal the annual value of the land itself, irrespective of the use made of it or the improvements on it...."

The words "annual value" are ambiguous because they could possibly mean annually assessed value or, if stretched a bit, annual income. But I think the ambiguity is cleared up by the next clause, "irrespective of the use made of it or the improvements on it . . .."

Is geolibertarianism in favor then of a land income tax over a land value tax? It's still not completely clear to me.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Geolibertarianism [Re: EchoVortex]
    #2543225 - 04/09/04 02:08 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

This might help answer your question:
Quote:

Today there is great concern over the environment - pollution of land, air and water, industrial wastes, over-development, destruction of nature. Furthermore, with the advent of global environmental problems, environmentalism is no longer a local concern. "NIMBY" (not in my back yard) is no longer possible in many cases.

Much environmental devastation is caused by our system of land tenure. As a community grows, large areas are acquired for speculation. This results in "leap-frog" development, with people moving further out to find affordable land. Thus all the facilities needed for a growing population are stretched out and made more expensive - transportation, utilities, water supply, garbage disposal, markets and other requirements.

If this condition were corrected, people and industries could move out from the centers of population at a more normal pace, thus making unnecessary the waste and expense, and a premature invasion of nature.

Land value taxation would make this condition possible, as people could then acquire sites closer to the centers more cheaply. Furthermore, people could enjoy both the advantages of urban culture as well as proximity to nature, instead of, as now, either being crowded in the city or settled so far away that urban amenities are not conveniently available.

The environmental problem is exacerbated where land monopoly is at its worst. In Brazil, the destruction of the rain forest is deplored. People crowded in urban slums go to farm these areas, not well suited for agriculture, because prime agricultural land is owned by a few latifundistas. An application of land value taxation would improve this situation. Better land would become available without having to resort to the rain forest.

We also find that in African countries whole communities of people are forced onto poor land not suitable for habitation by the dominant ruling cliques. The plight of the disinherited people is often attributed to overpopulation or overuse of land, but the real cause is land monopoly.

Often, measures advanced by environmentalists to improve the situation would require much regulation and restriction of individual liberty, along with a degree of monitoring that would become increasingly difficult to attain. Under land value taxation, and relief from other taxes, good environmental standards would be easier to attain. A greater sense of community and voluntary observance could be relied on, instead of increasing regulations imposed by government.

People are becoming deeply concerned about the consequences of reliance upon fossil fuels, and hope to shift to renewable, less- polluting energy sources as soon as may be. Land value taxation would provide a significant incentive in this direction. At the current state of technology, resources such as solar power are not yet cost-competitive with fossil fuels. However, the energy industries receive various indirect subsidies, and the techniques for utilizing coal and oil have been refined for over a hundred years. A major cause of this has been the capacity to own the potential energy resources themselves, in the ground. It is not possible to own the sun! Profits from oil and coal come largely from land, whereas profits from various forms of solar energy come almost exclusively from capital. A tax system that collected ground rent, and removed the tax burden from labor and capital, would put solar energy on a more equal footing with entrenched - but environmentally destructive - fossil fuels.

Environmentalists need to learn the remedy of the single tax on land values as a way to improve the environment.





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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: Geolibertarianism [Re: silversoul7]
    #2543308 - 04/09/04 02:26 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Sounds promising, but to be honest the tone of that piece creeps me out a little bit as it is eerily reminiscent of late-night infomercials for some special car wax that promises you the world. I'm not really big on political prescriptions that assume that , if you adopt them, A, B, C, and D will all follow in a neat, orderly progression like falling dominoes. I see the world as being a good deal messier than that, and the bigger the promises, the more skeptical I become.

Nonetheless, the LVT idea is still very interesting indeed and I'll try to keep an open mind as I learn more about it. But I'm still a little in the dark: are we talking about a land value tax here or a land income tax?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Geolibertarianism [Re: EchoVortex]
    #2543493 - 04/09/04 02:58 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Well, apparently it is the land value tax. It's basically like current property taxes except that they exempt human improvements on the land.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: Geolibertarianism [Re: silversoul7]
    #2543539 - 04/09/04 03:04 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Okay, thanks for clearing that up.

An intriguing idea, though--definitely want to give this some thought.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Geolibertarianism [Re: EchoVortex]
    #2543817 - 04/09/04 04:02 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)



--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Edited by Evolving (04/09/04 04:16 PM)


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