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Invisible2Experimental
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when did consiousness first apear
    #2536478 - 04/07/04 08:51 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

For all the creationists out there, 'it' apeared when god made Adam and Eve... for the more logical folk, it happened somewhere in bewtween the times when the 'apes' became 'humans'... I wonder what it was like, the first person to ever have 'thoughts'... It makes me wonder, animals have 'thoughts' OR DO THEY? they have FEELINGS sure, but what actually defines a thought... How did conciousness first enter humans? And once again, what defines being 'conciouss'? Im sure I'll get soem answers like 'being aware= conciousness' ect, but aren't even plants aware of how to grow, and do we let them vote?? SO basicly, im not sure where I'm going with this:


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OfflineViaggio
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Re: when did consiousness first apear [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2536498 - 04/07/04 09:00 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I just asked in my "biological machines" thread what defines consciousness? Here was my post:

Quote:

viaggio said:
What is the definition of consciousness? Is it something with absolute defining boundaries, or is it relative to everything in existence? Perhaps it is relative, and that there are "levels" of consciousness in which higher levels make way for spiritual development. I don't know if consciousness is the key to spirituality...a description of advanced human-made machines had me wonder about a robot with AI. If it was self-aware, doesn't that mean it now has a consciousness? Would it be limited? Is a human's consciousness limited? No? Is it because it can grow? Then how do you measure it?




--------------------
"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: when did consiousness first apear [Re: Viaggio]
    #2536558 - 04/07/04 09:16 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

ahh! I swear I diden't see your post... maybe we a psycokineticly connected and transpired thoughts? that would say ALOT for conciousness eh?


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OfflineTheShroomHermit
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Re: when did consiousness first apear [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2536573 - 04/07/04 09:20 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

>for the more logical folk, it happened somewhere in bewtween the times when the 'apes' became 'humans'...
-I find this kind of thinking to be a little arrogant. I mean, by saying that apes, or any other animals besides humans, don't have conciousness we are effectively narrowing our views while simultaneously making ourselves appear superior.

>I wonder what it was like, the first person to ever have 'thoughts'...
-I wonder if the first humans really had much time to think deeply. I'm guessing most of there time was spent trying to stay alive.

>It makes me wonder, animals have 'thoughts' OR DO THEY? they have FEELINGS sure, but what actually defines a thought...
-We don't know for sure animals have feelings, just as we are unsure if they don't have them. Keeping animals all my life, I do suspect dogs and cats have visual thinking skills. As for what counts as a "thought"... I'd say it's anything something created in the mind, instead of entering the mind through the senses.

>How did conciousness first enter humans?
-I'm guessing that it was around before humans. I mean, being aware of itself seems to be valuable tool to ensure the survival of the self...

>aren't even plants aware of how to grow, and do we let them vote??
-I don't see how plants are aware of how to grow. I mean, they will grow toward sunlight... this is a basic chemical reflect. It has more to do with genetic programming, and I see no evidence of actual thought; after all plants will grow toward certain doom if you put a bright light just behind it.

>SO basicly, im not sure where I'm going with this:
-Me either, but is it the destination or the journey which counts?


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: when did consiousness first apear [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #2536603 - 04/07/04 09:26 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

"I mean, they will grow toward sunlight... this is a basic chemical reflect."

My point was, that SOMEHOW, on a cellular level, they 'know' how to grow towards the sunlight.. whether or not this makes the plant kingdom 'concious' is up for debate....


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: when did consiousness first apear [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2536632 - 04/07/04 09:34 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

yeah animals have thoughts. I have a cat that can open my door, and she knows that the door handle is key. I think the thing that mainly differentiates between us and animals is our ability to imagine. ideas that don't come directly from experience. I think someone else said this but called it abstract thoughts. animals rely more on insticts.

I often think about how and when conscious-awareness first appeared. not to jsut be able to experience, but to know YOU are experiencing. To say "I am" and to understand part of that. I think "Food of the Gods" would reveal some interesting thoughts that deal directly with your question.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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InvisibleArmFromTheAbyss
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Re: when did consiousness first apear [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2536665 - 04/07/04 09:43 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Perception leads to consciousness. The more you see, the more you're aware of. Personally, I think consciousness has many levels as does lucidity. Humans have the potential to reach very high levels of consciousness and pereception. Animals, specifically the more complex organisms, by the previous logic have consciousness, but lower than us.

I think animals just have  a lower level of consciousness than humans. Animal thoughts may be more instinctive than ours. An owl needs to be aware of lots of things around it. Therefore shouldn't it thus have consciousness? He's conscious of that feild mouse running around down there and then he swoops apon it.

Perhaps consciousness did not first appear in humans, but humans are the pinnacle, so far, of reaching higher levels of consciousness. However, some of us carry the curve so to speak. There is even different levels of consciousness within the human species. Some humans are not really conscious, some are "overly" conscious about what's going on around us. Intrestingly, Humans with lower levels of consciousness tend to still survive. So consciousness doesn't run parrellel with survival.

Humans definetly are somewhat seperate from most other organisms. We have evolved past the Neolithic Revolution, which puts us on a level seperate from all other organisms. We no longer think primarily to survive because of things like the Industrial Revolution. We think crazy shit!
Welp, that's my veiw. :laugh:


--------------------


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OfflineTheShroomHermit
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Re: when did consiousness first apear [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2536671 - 04/07/04 09:44 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

>My point was, that SOMEHOW, on a cellular level, they 'know' how to grow towards the sunlight.. whether or not this makes the plant kingdom 'concious' is up for debate...
-Then the debate is whether or not genetics count as a concious. My stance is that no, they don't (in itself) count.


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OfflineTheShroomHermit
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Re: when did consiousness first apear [Re: ArmFromTheAbyss]
    #2536696 - 04/07/04 09:53 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

>Perhaps consciousness did not first appear in humans, but humans are the pinnacle, so far, of reaching higher levels of consciousness.
-How are you so sure that dolphins wouldn't have reached a similar society if they had written record and organized languages? I think that much of what we have accomplished is due to an effort on ALL our part, and is repassed through communication to others. If you took away communication, we'd loose our team work ability... we wouldn't have been able to accomplish many of the things we have.


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: when did consiousness first apear [Re: ArmFromTheAbyss]
    #2536711 - 04/07/04 09:57 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

.. good thoughts, contradiction in your post:

"So consciousness doesn't run parrellel with survival"

With your owl example it seems conciousness DOES parallel survival.. but to what point? Did you mean pysical survival.. or is there some sort of 'higher' survival you were refering to?


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: when did consiousness first apear [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #2536746 - 04/07/04 10:07 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

TheShroomHermit said:
-How are you so sure that dolphins wouldn't have reached a similar society if they had written record and organized languages? I think that much of what we have accomplished is due to an effort on ALL our part, and is repassed through communication to others. If you took away communication, we'd loose our team work ability... we wouldn't have been able to accomplish many of the things we have.




Maybe dolphins are even more advanced than humans, to the point where they don't need any external technology to live happy lives. That, and they don't have thumbs.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: when did consiousness first apear [Re: Shroomism]
    #2536873 - 04/07/04 10:35 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

That, and they don't have thumbs.

Thus they will never experience the joy of hitch-hiking.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Re: when did consiousness first apear [Re: Swami]
    #2536949 - 04/07/04 10:57 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

read the book FOOD OF THE GODS, by Mckenna i think.
He puts forth the theory that conciousness first appeared when the mamallian nervous system achieved symbiosis with the mushroom conciousness via apes and shrooms. VERY interesting book


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OfflineSpokesman
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Re: when did consiousness first apear [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2537008 - 04/07/04 11:09 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

actually, creationists would tell you concioussnes has existed forever because isn't god a concious being?


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Edited by Spokesman (04/08/04 09:19 AM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: when did consiousness first apear [Re: Spokesman]
    #2537061 - 04/07/04 11:21 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

People who make crates?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: when did consiousness first apear [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2537091 - 04/07/04 11:26 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

read the book FOOD OF THE GODS, by Mckenna i think.
He puts forth the theory that conciousness first appeared when the mamallian nervous system achieved symbiosis with the mushroom conciousness via apes and shrooms. VERY interesting book


False assumption. I have read it.

It is entertaining in a mind-candy way, but not from a historical or anthropological view as his "evidence" is way too flimsy to be considered a serious hypothesis.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleArmFromTheAbyss
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Re: when did consiousness first apear [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2537099 - 04/07/04 11:28 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

.. good thoughts, contradiction in your post:

"So consciousness doesn't run parrellel with survival"

With your owl example it seems conciousness DOES parallel survival.. but to what point? Did you mean pysical survival.. or is there some sort of 'higher' survival you were refering to?




I guess consciousness does have a relationship with survival. I was talking about physical.

The difference between us and animals though is that we have cultivated our consciousness to the point where our survival no longer depends apon it. We have the time to explore philosophy and be conscious/aware of all the other stuff out there beyond our world.

I wonder if a sloth can think existentially. ???


--------------------


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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Re: when did consiousness first apear [Re: ArmFromTheAbyss]
    #2537208 - 04/07/04 11:52 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

yeah i agree that its not a solid answer, but it IS interesting, and also about as valid as any theory i have come across. Plus i have had enough experiences with mushrooms taking hold of my mind and making it go farther than ever before, and seen how it can take your head and make you SEE something you didnt before...
it makes me wonder...


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OfflineDrubuShrume
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Re: when did consiousness first apear [Re: ArmFromTheAbyss]
    #2537755 - 04/08/04 02:19 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

>>>The difference between us and animals though is that we have cultivated our consciousness to the point where our survival no longer depends apon it. We have the time to explore philosophy and be conscious/aware of all the other stuff out there beyond our world.<<<

Oh, but our survival DOES depend on our counsciousness. It requires consciousness to consume your food. While you aren't necessarily aware of the process that occurs in getting your hungry man dinner or ramen noodles, there is conscious effort required for such products and your survival.

Animals with brains are conscious beings. The brain interprets signals from the senses and develops patterns and reactions to certain stimulii. Like the owl stalking the field mice, it KNOWS the mice is there, and it KNOWS how to spot one. While being self-consciousness might require language in order to identify yourself as "I" whether through sounds or symbols, a consciousness is required before self-consciousness. Have you ever been knocked "unconscious"? You don't really respond to the input your body is recieving.

Mushrooms (along with a lil bit of Plato) have helped me realize that each individual and their experience is a possiblity playing itself out. This possiblity is God, all of existence and nonexistence. According to Plato, there exists the reality of objects, and there exists the reality of forms. The reality of forms, in my view, is God. It is all the possiblities, the blueprints for what is to come and what was. All knowledge exists in the realm of FORMS. The computer desk you are sitting at is imperfect. Eventually, it will decay and break down. However, the concept of such an object, the core idea of a computer desk, is infinite. The form can be expressed in many different ways, but each way is imperfect and finite. Such is all things associated with life. Humans are imperfect objects of a perfect form. This perfect form is God (remember- God is the form of forms-it contains all the knowledge ever known to man and all knowledge that ever will be known). Humans are incredibly smart. This is the result of being able to discover the forms that are within us. Whenever we get a good idea, its because we've found a form within us (one that might never have existed before, but once its been found its can't be lost forever).

I could go on and on even more but my point is that being self-aware is knowing you have a chance to do as much as you can with your life. All people know this, and some people just ignore it or make excuses as to why they shouldn't do as much as they can.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: when did consiousness first apear [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2538267 - 04/08/04 07:48 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

One does not need to be what you call a "creationist" in order to interpret and squeeze understanding out of the Biblical creation mythos. Genesis is pregnant with meaning.

I recommend that you read just the first chapter of Ego and Archetype: Individuation and the Religious Function of the Psyche by Edward Edinger (former director of the C. G. Jung Institute, NYC). This is the best modern (Jungian) interpretation of the origin of consciousness from the unconscious that I've ever read anywhere. Adam and Eve are symbolic 'recapitulations' of every human being's emergence from 'The Great Round,' The Great Mother,' 'The Cosmic Birther,' the Mater-Matter-Matrix of human existence. The book can commonly be found at large book stores in the psychology section.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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