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InvisibleYthanA
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A Math Theory for Why People Hallucinate * 4
    #25356590 - 07/30/18 09:07 PM (2 months, 20 days ago)

A Math Theory for Why People Hallucinate
www.quantamagazine.org

Psychedelic drugs can trigger characteristic hallucinations, which have long been thought to hold clues about the brain’s circuitry. After nearly a century of study, a possible explanation is crystallizing.

In the 1920s, decades before counterculture guru Timothy Leary made waves self-experimenting with LSD and other psychedelic drugs at Harvard University, a young perceptual psychologist named Heinrich Klüver used himself as a guinea pig in an ongoing study into visual hallucinations. One day in his laboratory at the University of Minnesota, he ingested a peyote button, the dried top of the cactus Lophophora williamsii, and carefully documented how his visual field changed under its influence. He noted recurring patterns that bore a striking resemblance to shapes commonly found in ancient cave drawings and in the paintings of Joan Miró, and he speculated that perhaps they were innate to human vision. He classified the patterns into four distinct types that he dubbed “form constants”: lattices (including checkerboards, honeycombs and triangles), tunnels, spirals and cobwebs.

Some 50 years later, Jack Cowan of the University of Chicago set out to reproduce those hallucinatory form constants mathematically, in the belief that they could provide clues to the brain’s circuitry. In a seminal 1979 paper, Cowan and his graduate student Bard Ermentrout reported that the electrical activity of neurons in the first layer of the visual cortex could be directly translated into the geometric shapes people typically see when under the influence of psychedelics. “The math of the way the cortex is wired, it produces only these kinds of patterns,” Cowan explained recently. In that sense, what we see when we hallucinate reflects the architecture of the brain’s neural network.

But no one could figure out precisely how the intrinsic circuitry of the brain’s visual cortex generates the patterns of activity that underlie the hallucinations.

An emerging hypothesis points to a variation of the mechanism that produces so-called “Turing patterns.” In a 1952 paper, the British mathematician and code-breaker Alan Turing proposed a mathematical mechanism for generating many of the repeating patterns commonly seen in biology — the stripes of tigers or zebra fish, for example, or a leopard’s spots. Scientists have known for some time that the classic Turing mechanism probably can’t occur in a system as noisy and complicated as the brain. But a collaborator of Cowan’s, the physicist Nigel Goldenfeld of the University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign, has proposed a twist on the original idea that factors in noise. Experimental evidence reported in two recent papers has bolstered the theory that this “stochastic Turing mechanism” is behind the geometric form constants people see when they hallucinate.

Sweaty Grasshoppers

Images we “see” are essentially the patterns of excited neurons in the visual cortex. Light reflecting off the objects in our field of view enters the eye and comes to a focus on the retina, which is lined with photoreceptor cells that convert that light into electrochemical signals. These signals travel to the brain and stimulate neurons in the visual cortex in patterns that, under normal circumstances, mimic the patterns of light reflecting off objects in your field of view. But sometimes patterns can arise spontaneously from the random firing of neurons in the cortex — internal background noise, as opposed to external stimuli — or when a psychoactive drug or other influencing factor disrupts normal brain function and boosts the random firing of neurons. This is believed to be what happens when we hallucinate.

But why do we see the particular shapes that Klüver so meticulously classified? The widely accepted explanation proposed by Cowan, Ermentrout and their collaborators is that these patterns result from how the visual field is represented in the first visual area of the visual cortex. “If you opened up someone’s head and looked at the activity of the nerve cells, you would not see an image of the world as through a lens,” said Peter Thomas, a collaborator of Cowan’s who is now at Case Western Reserve University. Instead, Thomas explained, the image undergoes a transformation of coordinates as it is mapped onto the cortex. If neuronal activity takes the form of alternating stripes of firing and non-firing neurons, you perceive different things depending on the stripes’ orientation. You see concentric rings if the stripes are oriented one way. You see rays or funnel shapes emanating from a central point — the proverbial light at the end of the tunnel common in near-death experiences — if the stripes are perpendicular to that. And you see spiral patterns if the stripes have a diagonal orientation.

But if geometric visual hallucinations like Klüver’s form constants are a direct consequence of neural activity in the visual cortex, the question is why this activity spontaneously occurs — and why, in that case, it doesn’t cause us to hallucinate all the time. The stochastic Turing mechanism potentially addresses both questions.

Alan Turing’s original paper suggested that patterns like spots result from the interactions between two chemicals spreading through a system. Instead of diffusing evenly like a gas in a room until the density is uniform throughout, the two chemicals diffuse at different rates, which causes them to form distinct patches with differing chemical compositions. One of the chemicals serves as an activator that expresses a unique characteristic, such as the pigmentation of a spot or stripe, while the other acts as an inhibitor, disrupting the activator’s expression. Imagine, for example, a field of dry grass dotted with grasshoppers. If you start a fire at several random points, with no moisture present, the entire field will burn. But if the heat from the flames causes the fleeing grasshoppers to sweat, and that sweat dampens the grass around them, you’ll be left with periodic spots of unburned grass throughout the otherwise charred field. This fanciful analogy, invented by the mathematical biologist James Murray, illustrates the classic Turing mechanism.

Turing acknowledged that this was a greatly simplified toy model for how actual patterns arise, and he never applied it to a real biological problem. But it offers a framework to build on. In the case of the brain, Cowan and Ermentrout pointed out in their 1979 paper that neurons can be described as activators or inhibitors. Activator neurons encourage nearby cells to also fire, amplifying electrical signals, while inhibitory neurons shut down their nearest neighbors, dampening signals. The researchers noticed that activator neurons in the visual cortex were mostly connected to nearby activator neurons, while inhibitory neurons tended to connect to inhibitory neurons farther away, forming a wider network. This is reminiscent of the two different chemical diffusion rates required in the classic Turing mechanism, and in theory, it could spontaneously give rise to stripes or spots of active neurons scattered throughout a sea of low neuronal activity. These stripes or spots, depending on their orientation, could be what generates perceptions of lattices, tunnels, spirals and cobwebs.

While Cowan recognized that there could be some kind of Turing mechanism at work in the visual cortex, his model didn’t account for noise — the random, bursty firing of neurons — which seemed likely to interfere with the formation of Turing patterns. Meanwhile, Goldenfeld and other researchers had been applying Turing’s ideas in ecology, as a model for predator-prey dynamics. In that scenario, the prey serve as activators, seeking to reproduce and increase their numbers, while predators serve as inhibitors, keeping the prey population in check with their kills. Thus, together they form Turing-like spatial patterns. Goldenfeld was studying how random fluctuations in predator and prey populations affect these patterns. He knew about Cowan’s work in neuroscience and soon realized his insights could apply there as well.

Houses With Eyes and Jaws

A condensed matter physicist by training, Goldenfeld gravitates toward interdisciplinary research, applying concepts and techniques from physics and math to biology and evolutionary ecology. Roughly 10 years ago, he and his then graduate student Tom Butler were pondering how the spatial distribution of predators and prey changes in response to random local fluctuations in their populations, for instance if a herd of sheep is attacked by wolves. Goldenfeld and Butler found that when a herd’s population is relatively low, random fluctuations can have big effects, even leading to extinction. It became clear that ecological models need to take random fluctuations into account rather than just describe the average behavior of populations. “Once I knew how to do the fluctuation calculation for pattern formation,” Goldenfeld said, “it was an obvious next step to apply this to the hallucination problem.”

In the brain, it’s the number of neurons that are on or off that randomly fluctuates rather than sheep and wolf populations. If an activator neuron randomly switches on, it can cause other nearby neurons to also switch on. Conversely, when an inhibitory neuron randomly switches on, it causes nearby neurons to switch off. Because the connections between inhibitory neurons are long-range, any inhibitory signals that randomly arise spread faster than random excitatory signals — exactly what’s needed for a Turing-like mechanism. Goldenfeld’s models suggested that stripes of active and inactive neurons will form in a Turing-like pattern. He dubbed these stochastic Turing patterns.

However, to function properly, the visual cortex must be primarily driven by external stimuli, not by its own internal noisy fluctuations. What keeps stochastic Turing patterns from constantly forming and causing us to constantly hallucinate? Goldenfeld and colleagues argue that even though the firing of neurons can be random, their connections are not. Whereas short-range connections between excitatory neurons are common, long-range connections between inhibitory neurons are sparse, and Goldenfeld thinks this helps suppress the spread of random signals. He and his cohorts tested this hypothesis by creating two separate neural network models. One was based on the actual wiring of the visual cortex, and the other was a generic network with random connections. In the generic model, normal visual function was substantially degraded because the random firing of neurons served to amplify the Turing effect. “A generically wired visual cortex would be contaminated by hallucinations,” Goldenfeld said. In the realistic model of the cortex, however, internal noise was effectively dampened.

Goldenfeld suggests that evolution has selected for a particular network structure that inhibits hallucinatory patterns: The sparseness of connections between inhibitory neurons prevents inhibitory signals from traveling long distances, disrupting the stochastic Turing mechanism and the perception of funnels, cobwebs, spirals and so forth. The dominant patterns that spread through the network will be based on external stimuli — a very good thing for survival, since you want to be able to spot a snake and not be distracted by a pretty spiral shape.

“If the cortex had been built with these long-range inhibitory connections all over the place, then the tendency to form these patterns would be stronger than the tendency to process the visual input coming in. It would be a disaster and we would never have survived,” Thomas said. Because long-range inhibitory connections are sparse, “the models don’t produce spontaneous patterns unless you force them to, by simulating the effects of hallucinogenic drugs.”

Experiments have shown that hallucinogens like LSD appear to disrupt the normal filtering mechanisms the brain employs, perhaps boosting long-range inhibitory connections and therefore permitting random signals to amplify in a stochastic Turing effect.

Goldenfeld and collaborators have not yet tested their theory of visual hallucinations experimentally, but hard evidence that stochastic Turing patterns do arise in biological systems has emerged in the last few years. Around 2010, Goldenfeld heard about work done by Ronald Weiss, a synthetic biologist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology who had been struggling for years to find the appropriate theoretical framework to explain some intriguing experimental results.

Years earlier, Weiss and his team had grown bacterial biofilms that were genetically engineered to express one of two different signaling molecules. In an effort to demonstrate the growth of a classic Turing pattern, they tagged the signaling molecules with fluorescent markers so that the activators glowed red and the inhibitors glowed green. Although the experiment started out with a homogenous biofilm, over time a Turing-like pattern emerged, with red polka dots scattered throughout a swath of green. However, the red dots were much more haphazardly located than, say, leopards’ spots. Additional experiments also failed to yield the desired results.

When Goldenfeld heard about these experiments, he suspected that Weiss’ data could be viewed from a stochastic point of view. “Rather than trying to make the patterns more regular and less noisy,” Weiss said, “we realized through our collaboration with Nigel that these are really stochastic Turing patterns.” Weiss, Goldenfeld and collaborators finally published their paper in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences last month, 17 years after the research began.

The biofilms formed stochastic Turing patterns because gene expression is a noisy process. According to Joel Stavans of the Weizmann Institute of Science in Israel, that noise is responsible for disparities among cells, which can have the same genetic information yet behave differently. In recently published work, Stavans and his colleagues investigated how noise in gene expression can lead to stochastic Turing patterns in cyanobacteria, ancient organisms that produce a large proportion of the oxygen on Earth. The researchers studied anabaena, a type of cyanobacteria with a simple structure of cells attached to one another in a long train. An anabaena’s cells can specialize to perform one of two activities: photosynthesis, or converting nitrogen in the atmosphere into proteins. An anabaena might have, for instance, one nitrogen-fixing cell, then 10 or 15 photosynthesis cells, then another nitrogen-fixing cell, and so on, in what appears to be a stochastic Turing pattern. The activator, in this case, is a protein that creates a positive feedback loop to produce more such proteins. At the same time, the protein may also produce other proteins that diffuse to neighboring cells and inhibit the first protein’s production. This is the primary feature of a Turing mechanism: an activator and an inhibitor fighting against each other. In anabaena, noise drives the competition.

Researchers say the fact that stochastic Turing processes appear to be at work in these two biological contexts adds plausibility to the theory that the same mechanism occurs in the visual cortex. The findings also demonstrate how noise plays a pivotal role in biological organisms. “There is not a direct correlation between how we program computers” and how biological systems work, Weiss said. “Biology requires different frameworks and design principles. Noise is one of them.”

There is still much more to understand about hallucinations. Jean-Paul Sartre experimented with mescaline in Paris in 1935 and found it distorted his visual perception for weeks. Houses appeared to have “leering faces, all eyes and jaws,” clock faces looked like owls, and he saw crabs following him around all the time. These are much higher-level hallucinations than Klüver’s simple form constants. “The early stages of visual hallucination are very simple — these geometric patterns,” Ermentrout said. But when higher cognitive functions kick in, such as memory, he said, “you start to see more complex hallucinations and you try and make sense of them. I believe that all you’re seeing is the spontaneous emergence of [stored memories] as the higher brain areas become more excited.”

Back in the ’20s, Klüver also worked with subjects who reported tactile hallucinations, such as cobwebs crawling across their skin. Ermentrout thinks this is consistent with a cobweb-like form constant mapped onto the somatosensory cortex. Similar processes might play out in the auditory cortex, which could account not only for auditory hallucinations but for phenomena like tinnitus. Cowan agrees, noting that the brain has similar wiring throughout, so if a theory of hallucinations “works for vision, it’s going to work for all the other senses.”


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InvisibleNothingsChangedS
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Re: A Math Theory for Why People Hallucinate [Re: Ythan]
    #25357212 - 07/31/18 02:37 AM (2 months, 20 days ago)

:thumbup:


--------------------


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Invisiblelessismore
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Re: A Math Theory for Why People Hallucinate [Re: NothingsChanged]
    #25357459 - 07/31/18 04:23 AM (2 months, 20 days ago)




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Offlinerider420
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Re: A Math Theory for Why People Hallucinate [Re: lessismore]
    #25358223 - 07/31/18 02:53 PM (2 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

“The early stages of visual hallucination are very simple — these geometric patterns,” Ermentrout said. But when higher cognitive functions kick in, such as memory, he said, “you start to see more complex hallucinations and you try and make sense of them. I believe that all you’re seeing is the spontaneous emergence of [stored memories] as the higher brain areas become more excited.”




How innocent is it to believe that a simple mathematical pattern is the cause of hallucinations. I guess Ermentrout has never done psychedelics otherwise he would know hallucinations depends on dose and type of psychedelic used. DMT LSD shrooms all cause very different hallucinations especially in higher doses.

Its like comparing a movie with a dream, a dream seems real no matter what crazy shit is happening while with a movie you know what your seeing is just BS.


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Invisiblelessismore
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Re: A Math Theory for Why People Hallucinate [Re: rider420]
    #25358324 - 07/31/18 03:43 PM (2 months, 19 days ago)

The ego sees what it want to see. => I am the master of my own mind.

Thus I can hallucinate ANY thing you don't want me to see (and researchers too). How that for Timothy Leary anyone.


If I want to be on the moon, I be there now.
Even with lsd artifacts overlapping on my vision.

The mystery of psychedelics is they are mind manifesting.


They may do all things or none things.

Just like a dream.


For consciousness is at the center of it all.


If you don't believe psychedelics may do NO things, you not done them enough. Psychedelics the only tools that stop working when you do them enough. The only drugs that stop working.

It is why experienced trippers say: distance out trips to not lose the magic.

Trip too much=>boring trips


Trips are as magical as a dream, and as a child's imagination.

I mean it be unusual not to see dragons.



NOW would you be mindfucked if a 10 strip of good LSD did Nothing?
I mean it would messme up, and then maybe later it would giveme the death anxiety


Hey it seems, expectation is often more powerful than the trip itself... just see that line

I expect to trip,therefore I trip

Thought rollercoaster

One initial thought

Cascading thoughts

Rollercoaster


But he who stops thought. No thought. No trip.


Is it possible?


It would mean, a guru would not trip. Ever heard that story?
the guru who ate a thumbprint, but felt nothing. Thumbprint of good lsd.


Seems the experience is very subjective.
Some are convinced they have ingested a Hallucinotory substance


Just like some see devils when smoking the weed, others do not. (and freak out, go to the hospital)


So if you want to trip people, have a child's imagination.
Else it will be boring, you might see nothing.


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: A Math Theory for Why People Hallucinate [Re: lessismore]
    #25358590 - 07/31/18 06:11 PM (2 months, 19 days ago)

No the ego does not see what it wants to see.  It's not even the ego, but it's the part(the ego) that suffers.  Expectations are blown.


--------------------
All comments by Morel Guy are fictional opinions and nothing legally binding therein.


Edited by Morel Guy (08/01/18 09:12 AM)


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Invisiblelessismore
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Re: A Math Theory for Why People Hallucinate [Re: Morel Guy]
    #25359200 - 07/31/18 10:56 PM (2 months, 19 days ago)

to the ones who ingest Hallucinatory Substances, or think they do; i urge you to take a higher dose next time, you know.., maybe it is all expectations? ^^


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Invisiblelessismore
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Re: A Math Theory for Why People Hallucinate [Re: Morel Guy]
    #25359210 - 07/31/18 11:01 PM (2 months, 19 days ago)

Ego (I am, sense of Self), sees what it wants to see. That is the whole Idea of expectations.

Suggestion is highly researched subject.

Some people see only what they want to see.


So you say it is the Ego-fragments that suffer? sounds sensible. I mean fear is less than the whole. Lets say deth-anxiety, or people-anxiety, or old traumas anxiety.

All existed as fragments of the ego, and are not about to let go and be absolved.


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Re: A Math Theory for Why People Hallucinate [Re: lessismore] * 1
    #25359221 - 07/31/18 11:05 PM (2 months, 19 days ago)

This "research" has a lot more weight than "my hallucinations are of another dimension" or spiritual bullshit. I personally have always believed that the brain runs on polygons and that's why we see sacred geometry.


--------------------
Your god is dead, and I killed him.

When you’re lost, here I am. Forever with your soul


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Invisiblelessismore
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Re: A Math Theory for Why People Hallucinate [Re: lessismore]
    #25359267 - 07/31/18 11:35 PM (2 months, 19 days ago)



I have seen this Vision on Salvia Divinorum;my head became a building and I saw it from outside, but it was now rock, rock hard.

And I was watching it from outside.

And my hands became landscape (unmoveable,rigid, like stone too), my body part of another dimension.

My body morphed into other dimensions, literally I was the watcher of myself. And voices spoke to me, from outside myself, my furniture spoke to me.

A plastic bag on the floor became heads of people i know, and it spoke to me. So I picked it up.


The voice kept coming from the location.


It is messy shit, don't play with that Herb, salvia 20x
I got transported into a doom maze and unable to escape, the walls were solid. My old reality was gone.


I tell you I have become Cement, ground on Salvia many times.
It hurts a bit to be the pavement, and it is so cold.

I also get transported outside each time, and there are people there each time, which are not in reality there.

But it feels real. They speak and I reply. Like a dream.


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Invisibleds442
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Re: A Math Theory for Why People Hallucinate [Re: Ythan]
    #25359417 - 08/01/18 03:56 AM (2 months, 19 days ago)

Some people see the same types of patterns but how do you explain all the other crazy things people see. It is your lower brain doing it. Same as when you are dreaming.

I have never hallucinated off a psychedelic. I had Schizophrenia for 3 years and had some visual and audio hallucinations. I seen the RV space ship from the movie Spaceballs come down over my neighbors yard. It looked so real.

A couple of weeks ago I was having this dream where I was sleeping in a room with a bunch of people. A big guy put a sheet over me and started to attack me. I woke up and there was this big bald fat dude right above me pointing and screaming at me. I couldn't hear him. I thought about punching him but thought he's not real. He then turned into a jellyfish and floated away. Crazy shit.

The other day I had a dream where I got into a fight with and old friend. He threw a punch and I blocked it and threw one back. I actually punched and knocked something off the table next to my bed.

I'm always getting into fights in my dreams. I am always getting attacked. What the hell is that about?


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Invisiblelessismore
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Re: A Math Theory for Why People Hallucinate [Re: ds442]
    #25359435 - 08/01/18 04:15 AM (2 months, 19 days ago)

Go for the TRUTH man, and people... go for the TRUUUUUTH

TRUTH MAN

ps Im not going to tell you watht it is, I might have interest in that.


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OfflineFractal420
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Re: A Math Theory for Why People Hallucinate [Re: Morel Guy]
    #25359470 - 08/01/18 05:55 AM (2 months, 19 days ago)

Quote:

Morel Guy said:
No the ego does not see what it wants to see.  It's not even the ego, but it's the part that suffers.  Expectations are blown.




Ive had one lucy trip where (i was maybe 18ish) i was looking at porn the day before, and with the memory long gone (lol) i dropped 300 mics with a friend and we sat on the beach, and the clouds started becoming very vivid sex acts, like literal Lucy in the Sky, giving blowjobs and other shit youd see from porn thumbnails, just constantly changing.

Another thing i notice over and over again is Lucy (but not Psilo) makes me see shades of purple everywhere like in the grass and such that i do not normally see, but i dont think its a "hallucination" either. I think its the ability to see past ROY G BIV, at least a little

Mushrooms make grass and nature look really inviting too but i dont see that purple color everywhere. But it has to be in the sunlight. Light makes most of my actual "hallucinations" happen whenever id trip. Its usually lamps and lights that turn into faces and all that

alot of people maybe are thinking about xyz and assume the trip will be related to xyz but you feel completely different after you start coming up usually, its like a layer of the psyche is stripped away. Perhaps this is why afterwards people feel less depressed


--------------------
Dreaming of That face again.
It's bright and blue and shimmering.
Grinning wide
And comforting me with it's three warm and wild eyes.

Prying open MY third eye



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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: A Math Theory for Why People Hallucinate [Re: Fractal420]
    #25359628 - 08/01/18 09:19 AM (2 months, 19 days ago)

Hallucinogens as they are wrongly called do not meet expectations.  It is part of the equation but it's surely not the message.

Life, how often does it meet expectations?  If it does a majority of the time, why not expect more?  It also brings into the misery of fear and fearing expectations coming into manifestation.

The whole idea of why they are called hallucinogens is they hallucinate where expectations and reality do not show true.  Most of the time in sober reality our expectations and how we react to our own inner workings are our worst problems.  Psychedelics teach us to fear our expectations and reactions.  They can teach us to change those when normally we feel we have no power to do such.  It's the very model of psychotherapy.

It's also the model of religion, to find some inner power or higher power to transcend normal modes of perception.  Which so much of what's normal is not being able to change the self in relation to reality.

It's safe to say that psychedelics are the most unexpected of drugs.  Even now they try to stigmatize and classify their effects based on psychiatric generic references.  No longer to free the mind and dream, we are limited by social expectations that a 3 year old can learn.

Who we are is a lot of expectation building, social expectation building.  Some do very well transcending while maintaining social expectations.  Others I feel were injured and descended (myself included).  To me, nothing is more dangerous than social expectations.  Nothing more trivial.


--------------------
All comments by Morel Guy are fictional opinions and nothing legally binding therein.


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Invisiblelessismore
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Re: A Math Theory for Why People Hallucinate [Re: Morel Guy]
    #25359844 - 08/01/18 11:44 AM (2 months, 19 days ago)

Interesting commentary, I feel a bit the same. Psychedelics not only good.
I see so many people looking in the mirror on it: Pride, enslaves man.

If they were good, they would not boost pride in people. But all they do after taking psychedelics is take selfies.



Did we do that when we were free kids of God(of creation)? NOPE!

We just were. To be.


What psychedelics do,can do, is trap the mind. It might just well be of satan, if the saying is true, that god does no harm.

But it may not be so simple, they may be a doubleedged swords. But their nature is still Serpent (knowledge) Thus they can hurt more than do good often.


Knowledge a dangerous thing: science, the abomb etc.


It seems psychedelics are like a sharp teethed demon, who once he gets a hold of your neck, clenches on. And then you ask him more.



As I see it, psychedelics, weed often lead into isolation,despair , just like hacking groups , and new age. Maybe they all are occult, in the dark, deluded.
If they were true there would be liberation all over them, and only happy enlightened people verywhere.

But in each of these, people wander any direction, go crazy, and be on psychiatric meds with ruined life often. Like selfvictimize. Isolated. Despaired. Lonely. Hypochrite too. Blame all mode.


They cannot be of universal good.
I also promote that gnosticism is not of universal good, as it has the sword of knowledge in it too, with some inherent evil in it (snake).

They seek knowledge, thus self reward.

And like psychedelics, new age - that is often the whole business,trippy stuff.


Self reward.


I do not rule out these tools really can expand minds for universal good/good of all.

But the knowledge they provide is a dangerous thing, like it is dangerous taking a science phd - it can ruin you or make you. ''I seen as many lives ruined by a physics phd as Heroin'' - I heard one say one day.


Well knowledge can isolate you people. It should not be our only goal in life.
And psychedelics can tend to make people fixated, like a fifa football lunatic (also trapped in own mind).

Both fixated on a single goal only now in life.

Addiction.Obsession.The devil.


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OfflineFractal420
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Re: A Math Theory for Why People Hallucinate [Re: lessismore]
    #25359999 - 08/01/18 01:10 PM (2 months, 19 days ago)

Theyre absolutely unpredictable and wildly different each time. Unlike say, i dunno, cocaine or even the mildly psychedelic cannabis. Again with all psychedelics but particularly lsd. One first tab can be a certain way and the person thinks "so thats what lsd is like". If they take the very next tab from the same strip the next weekend, it'll be so vastly different that they'll probably feel like its almost a whole different substance at first. There are the basic lysergamide/tryptamine effects but all this subjective stuff will have changed from say a very body oriented experience to something very visual, the come up could change from super smooth to just intense as fuck. Its just so different every time. Mushrooms vary too but i feel at the same doses with similar potency shrooms theyre not as different, lsd causes these crazy swings in mood, which also might be part of why it can be healing as well as a bit much and possibly difficult at higher doses.

In general, lsd is a fucking *trip, which ironically is the best way i can put it.

I prefer ald52 when possible, its like the difference between sativa and indica


--------------------
Dreaming of That face again.
It's bright and blue and shimmering.
Grinning wide
And comforting me with it's three warm and wild eyes.

Prying open MY third eye



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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/11/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: A Math Theory for Why People Hallucinate [Re: Fractal420]
    #25360423 - 08/01/18 05:10 PM (2 months, 18 days ago)

You cannot test for ald52 to my knowledge, no test kits out there?

So may be risky. I highly recommend an Ehrlich test kit/reagent kit, it's only like $10 to be safe, if you chose to venture 'down the road'(no secret talk ment).

LSD is not always lsd these days, and the wrong molecule can kill, there are many that may fit onto 1/4" blotters: bromodragonfly, dox, 25inbome - all 3 can be deadly. There have been fatalaties from each. This is not to downrate LSD, I just want you all to be safe. Inform yourself, Erowid is simply the best place for LSD information.


So you say Ald52 is like a stony Indica?

LSD for sure is one hell of a ride, like sativa all in mind, like my mind is a Needlepoint, needle focusing on my reality

And the thoughts just keep coming, straming into my mind


Like the visuals ohoho


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/11/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: A Math Theory for Why People Hallucinate [Re: lessismore]
    #25360441 - 08/01/18 05:17 PM (2 months, 18 days ago)

Mushroom chocolates, almost/exactly as good as good pure LSD. And I dont say that about many things. I tried so many methods, but only chocolates make me happy trips.

I swear they make me trip harder. Less needed to dose!

Like Orange Juice tek makes you need half dose. Be safe with them, you might not need over 3-3.5g there. But usually I need like 3.5-4.5g or more.


Consistent less of a dose needed. It may be the surface area, or chocolate interacting like many say. Hard to say. Just the trips are AmaZing. Like good lsd people. It improves shroom trips so much, and make them easier to take with you too... chocolates easy to pack.

Stay safe at home ^^ (dont go to far from home... shrooms, take you for a ride... and 3-3.5g chocolates and you might not find youe way home again). Lock up all doors. Turn off phones, facebook.


Experienced tripper tips...

-turn off phones, phones can disturb trip/or you may something you regret next day to boss/friend, something stupid while intoxicated. People also known to dial 911 while tripping Mushrooms. PHONES very very bad mix with tripping often - but some can handle them, not all can

-turn off facebook, you wouldn't want boss knowing you trip, with those big Pupils

-lock doors, it makes you safe from strangers/visiting family

-be alone, undisturbed, strangers can give bad trips, even family can



Some of the common tripper tips I heard again and again. It is because there is somethin to it people. Be safe.

(Erowid very good idea to read too.. Set, Setting, Dose). You can not plan trip too much really I think. Plan a day ahead, for some good time. Rather than trip in nervous setting, near people you do not know fully well. Be alone or with very trusted trip sitter (one who wont mess with you). Else better be alone. In safe environment.



Edited by lessismore (08/01/18 05:33 PM)


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OfflineFractal420
Psycellium
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Registered: 06/21/13
Posts: 3,369
Last seen: 2 hours, 26 minutes
Re: A Math Theory for Why People Hallucinate [Re: lessismore]
    #25361449 - 08/02/18 06:52 AM (2 months, 18 days ago)

Quote:

lessismore said:
You cannot test for ald52 to my knowledge, no test kits out there?

So may be risky. I highly recommend an Ehrlich test kit/reagent kit, it's only like $10 to be safe, if you chose to venture 'down the road'(no secret talk ment).

LSD is not always lsd these days, and the wrong molecule can kill, there are many that may fit onto 1/4" blotters: bromodragonfly, dox, 25inbome - all 3 can be deadly. There have been fatalaties from each. This is not to downrate LSD, I just want you all to be safe. Inform yourself, Erowid is simply the best place for LSD information.


So you say Ald52 is like a stony Indica?

LSD for sure is one hell of a ride, like sativa all in mind, like my mind is a Needlepoint, needle focusing on my reality

And the thoughts just keep coming, straming into my mind


Like the visuals ohoho




Firstly ALD is slightly stronger than LSD25, despite being more chill. The visuals are pretty crazy, maybe even more so because you dont have much anxiety and can just look and appreciate them. Theres actual research weighing the strength vs level of anxiety of lsd vs ald52

These days ALD is sold as ald, used to just randomly be on lucy blotter/liquid. You can actually differentiate between say lsd25 and 1pLSD, and since ald is so close to 1p, im sure with marquis And erlich you can tell the difference thru slightly different color reactions. Youd have to look closely though. Im sure all would light up under a blacklight for example. But what i can say is when i got some strips of ALD back in the day, was always my favorite blotter. Probably stronger yet more chill. Thats why i say indica of lsd. LSD25 is more panicky stimulating and electric, sort of like "acid sativa". Also, you can prolly have different qualities of either, as in amber vs needlepoint ald. And many levels in between. That is my understanding at least

PS luckily seems like nbome is mostly phased out in the US, its pretty much all real lysergamides at least. The DOX thing as well, it seems less common. I had some hofmann bicycle day that def had to be DOX like 5 years ago. It seems since lsd is prolly easier and cheaper to get than those rc's anyway, the main one (lsd potency psychedelic phen)i see for sale sometimes is 2cb-fly and thats quite different and prolly not likely to be on blotter. Especially after the problems this chemical caused a few years back when it was labelled 2ce (killed people, because 2ce dosage is typically 10-25mg)


--------------------
Dreaming of That face again.
It's bright and blue and shimmering.
Grinning wide
And comforting me with it's three warm and wild eyes.

Prying open MY third eye



Edited by Fractal420 (08/02/18 07:01 AM)


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/11/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: A Math Theory for Why People Hallucinate [Re: Fractal420]
    #25363954 - 08/03/18 11:16 AM (2 months, 17 days ago)

Interesting how so many are sure the Hofmann tabs are DOX, but I have had fake tabs once

I have never been jaw numbed on hofmann tabs yet, have eaten many

But I agree heavily with you the taste is suspect

There could be many reasons for this taste, such as watercolor paper, or impure b-grade lsd (not all is needlepoint)


I can only say they very very good, very clean trips

Very powerful trips I might add, though It always takes me 3 hits to dose


2 gives a pretty good trip, well even 1½ can do.


But 3 is good for the splitting.

Many lives etc.



Hofmann always tested as LSd on ehrlich for me, and glowed under uv. So feel confient it was lsd.


But one can never know.

I have had fakes before, not hofmanns as mention, and those give jaw numbing
jaw numbing is an nbome and that can be very dangerous



A general thumbrule: if it is  bitter it is a spitter

or be very careful if your blotter is bitter people, dox/nbome can kill.


I would just recommend the hofmann prints, well sure there likely 10.000 prints of them in circulation, hard to know what is on each, and if each is pure.

But the ones I got were very pure clean trips. Felt so good.


Some of the best lsd i have had.


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