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LizardWizard
GnomeGrower
Registered: 01/07/15
Posts: 13,717
Loc: the parking lot
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Re: Working under alcohol lamp [Re: sagecl]
#25442858 - 09/07/18 03:18 PM (5 years, 6 months ago) |
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I've pointed to this technique years ago, and was told it wouldn't work for myco work. I've always doubted those answers.
-------------------- The best things in life can be smelled on one's fingers.
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bodhisatta
Smurf real estate agent
Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,891
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I see it more as the difference between using a hand saw, a two person bow saw. And a chain saw.
Can you cut down a forrest with the bunsen burner(hand saw) sure but you're doing it like they did in 1650
Can you cut down a forest with a still air box(two person bow saw) Sure but you're doing it like 1903
And with a flow hood(chain saw)...
But in this case the two person bow saw costs substantially less than the hand saw. So yea...
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gizmodo
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Re: Working under alcohol lamp [Re: bodhisatta]
#25443493 - 09/07/18 07:43 PM (5 years, 6 months ago) |
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There are so many threads here any information can be found to confirm a bias.
-------------------- One must be mindful to maintain their balance on the slippery earth. Bod's Comprehensive Agar Resource Gizmodo's Market Stall Say No To Grow Kits
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bodhisatta
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Re: Working under alcohol lamp [Re: gizmodo]
#25443497 - 09/07/18 07:45 PM (5 years, 6 months ago) |
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I hate that graemlin because it's spelled beggar not begger
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gizmodo
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Re: Working under alcohol lamp [Re: bodhisatta]
#25443500 - 09/07/18 07:45 PM (5 years, 6 months ago) |
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OCD trigger. Cannot unsee.
Edited by gizmodo (09/07/18 07:46 PM)
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LizardWizard
GnomeGrower
Registered: 01/07/15
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Re: Working under alcohol lamp [Re: gizmodo]
#25443502 - 09/07/18 07:46 PM (5 years, 6 months ago) |
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Same here dude.
-------------------- The best things in life can be smelled on one's fingers.
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bodhisatta
Smurf real estate agent
Registered: 04/30/13
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or derfase should be derface
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36fuckin5
Alchemycologist
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Re: Working under alcohol lamp [Re: bodhisatta] 1
#25443608 - 09/07/18 08:28 PM (5 years, 6 months ago) |
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Ythan did those just to irk people like you.
-------------------- Redd Foxx said: If you're offended I don't give a shit and don't come see me no more. Pat The Bunny said: A punk rock song won't ever change the world, but I can tell you about a couple that changed me. bodhisatta said: i recommend common sense and figuring it out. These are the TEKs I use. They're all as cheap and easy as possible, just like your mom.
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Mtez44
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Re: Working under alcohol lamp [Re: bodhisatta]
#25443820 - 09/07/18 09:53 PM (5 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said: I see it more as the difference between using a hand saw, a two person bow saw. And a chain saw.
Can you cut down a forrest with the bunsen burner(hand saw) sure but you're doing it like they did in 1650
Can you cut down a forest with a still air box(two person bow saw) Sure but you're doing it like 1903
And with a flow hood(chain saw)...
But in this case the two person bow saw costs substantially less than the hand saw. So yea...
why is it that you compare the burners to a handsaw and the SAB to a misery whip?
You are simply saying the SAB is better and Im trying to understand why. Are you saying that a still air box will allow you to work faster?
I think your opinion is common place. Your analogy didn't really explain why though. Just a fancier way to say what everyone else is saying.
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bodhisatta
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Re: Working under alcohol lamp [Re: Mtez44]
#25443844 - 09/07/18 09:58 PM (5 years, 6 months ago) |
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more reliable results. more consistent success. chop the forest down faster. yea the bunsen burner is more open and more space and nice to work with like a hand saw, and a SAB kind of ties you down to arm holes like a two person saw ties you down to needing two people.
either way its just a fucking analogy lol. I'm trying to say that the bunsen burner isn't staying relevant in microbiology because it's not as effective and other methods are not cost prohibitive.
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Mtez44
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Re: Working under alcohol lamp [Re: bodhisatta]
#25443939 - 09/07/18 10:38 PM (5 years, 6 months ago) |
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all good man. I get its just an analogy. However a lot of what you say holds weight around here.
Its just that everything seems anecdotal when it pertains to this subject. Mostly popular opinion. Burners apparently the least popular.
I just hate SABs perhaps like you hate burners.
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Josex
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Re: Working under alcohol lamp [Re: Mtez44]
#25444536 - 09/08/18 07:23 AM (5 years, 6 months ago) |
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Anyone who's been here a while knows that Bod is always right, or rather believes to be, shit's getting old and the analogies he posted here based on zero actual experience are just ridiculous. I'd always take what he says with a fucking fat pinch of salt...
I've tried both ways (SAB and bunsens) and know very well the pros and cons of each method. I'd build a FH if it wasn't a near impossibility for me, but as it is working with the 2 bunsens is hands down my next best option.
I don't have to set up a SAB anymore, just the thought of it makes me cringe. I just light up the burners and get to work. I'm as comfortable as if I was in front of a FH and don't have to look through a thick piece of plastic. I don't need to be careful not to stir the dirty air in a dirty box because I'm working in a nearly sterile field. I can move faster and get shit done in a fraction of the time it would take me in a SAB. The bunsens are 10x safer than a plastic box, I've done some crazy shit using the bunsens just to see if I'd get contams that you could never do in a SAB without getting a bunch of mold.
The only real con of the bunsens that I can see is the price vs a plastic box, but it isn't much and imo totally worth it considering how much easier your life is gonna get.
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Mtez44
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Re: Working under alcohol lamp [Re: Josex]
#25444900 - 09/08/18 10:24 AM (5 years, 6 months ago) |
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I have several of these style burners for camping. They attach directly to the fuel canister
You think these will work in place of bunsens?
Would they make a larger sterile field vs a single jet Bunsen?
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gizmodo
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Re: Working under alcohol lamp [Re: Josex]
#25444919 - 09/08/18 10:37 AM (5 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said: And i wouldn't suggest it to more modern technique..
Quote:
Josex said: Anyone who's been here a while knows that Bod is always right, or rather believes to be, shit's getting old and the analogies he posted here based on zero actual experience are just ridiculous. I'd always take what he says with a fucking fat pinch of salt...
I didn't see a reason to straw man Bod. Either way it looks like two opinions, everyone's got them just like assholes. People being straight up rude for no reason here triggers me you guys need to lay off the energy drinks.
Be nice.
-------------------- One must be mindful to maintain their balance on the slippery earth. Bod's Comprehensive Agar Resource Gizmodo's Market Stall Say No To Grow Kits
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bodhisatta
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Re: Working under alcohol lamp [Re: gizmodo]
#25444950 - 09/08/18 10:51 AM (5 years, 6 months ago) |
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Jose and I talked about this before. The best literature says that the bunsen "reduces risk" or other phrases that don't sound solid.
Its used in settings where no sterile technique would be fine. Its not used in labs where sterility is demanded.
There is not a lot of data or info or evidence about the efficacy of the Bunsen burner sterile field but also the only people using it are schools and basic QA labs that don't require great sterile technique to achieve their goals anyway.
If it's working for jose he can gladly post evidence of it and maybe ill eat my words some day, to think I always need to be right is lol at best. Ive ate my words numerous times here and even more in real life. Im only posting with the intent of digging for better understanding and also the best help for the next people in line to learn.
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LizardWizard
GnomeGrower
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Posts: 13,717
Loc: the parking lot
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Re: Working under alcohol lamp [Re: bodhisatta]
#25445126 - 09/08/18 12:48 PM (5 years, 6 months ago) |
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It's your style bod, you do know that by now, right?
Josex, I believe what you say, but I have no experience working with bunsens, nor am I planning to work with them since I got a hood anyway. But I think it would be good for the OMC if you would do a small write-up with a few short vids or photo's with comments, on how to work with bunsens. It's indeed a much easier way of working than the dreadful confines of a SAB, and a lot cheaper than any hood, but since no one ever put up a tek for it, no one will ever have use for it. So if you're up for it...
Things that come to mind for me are: Can you use it for open bag inoculation; How much of a perimeter do you have around the bunsens; How fast can you move; Direction of airflow and working principle; Proper contamination rates to find out how well you're doing (like with SAB I had a 8/10 good plate rate after transfer, as long as the source was clean already, when I moved to mold city that became about 2/10, flowhood fixed it all the way up to 10/10); how long does it need to run in a small room before it's efficient enough; what preparation is needed for work surfaces; Stuff like that..
-------------------- The best things in life can be smelled on one's fingers.
Edited by LizardWizard (09/08/18 12:57 PM)
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bodhisatta
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Aseptic Technique Tomasz Bykowski1 and Brian Stevenson
This chapter describes common laboratory procedures that can reduce the risk of culture contaminations (sepsis), collectively referred as “aseptic technique.” Two major strategies of aseptic work are described: using a Bunsen burner and a laminar flow hood. Both methods are presented in the form of general protocols applicable to a variety of laboratory tasks such as pipetting and dispensing aliquots, preparing growth media, and inoculating, passaging, and spreading microorganisms on petri dishes. Curr. Protoc. Microbiol. 11:A.4D.1-A.4D.11. C 2008 by John Wiley & Sons, Inc
The Bunsen Burner Probably the easiest way to create a relatively sterile environment on the laboratory bench is by using a simple gaspowered burner
still waiting on anything that says the field produced by a bunsen burner is more than "relatively sterile" or "semi-sterile"
or compelling results from individuals.
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FishLevelMidnight
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Re: Working under alcohol lamp [Re: bodhisatta]
#25445811 - 09/08/18 06:31 PM (5 years, 6 months ago) |
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What about thousands of labs around the world that use burners for bacterial work?
Even if you aren’t using antibiotics to select.
-------------------- Trade List
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gizmodo
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Providing literature instead of what ifs is a more concise way to get a point across. I mean what kind of bacterial work? What type of environment are they working in? Is there anything else they are doing to really bolster the atmosphere in terms of a lab setting? Just a burner is probably not the only factor at play in the least I just look here and see people throwing jabs at the wind? Anyway nobody said someone can't use it originally it was just said there are just much more reliable and sensible methods. Yall are cray.
-------------------- One must be mindful to maintain their balance on the slippery earth. Bod's Comprehensive Agar Resource Gizmodo's Market Stall Say No To Grow Kits
Edited by gizmodo (09/08/18 06:37 PM)
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Mtez44
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Re: Working under alcohol lamp [Re: gizmodo]
#25445904 - 09/08/18 07:19 PM (5 years, 6 months ago) |
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gizmodo with all due respect I think the argument here is that there the SAB is not the more reliable and sensible method.
But again I think it may come down to opinion.
SAB is not infallible and neither is the bunsen it seems.
I just don't see any evidence saying the SAB is better. I don't see any evidence saying burners are better. It seems to be a matter of opinion.
I think its fair to say that both methods work just as well. Unless anyone has evidence to the contrary.
As for me, I hate the confines of a SAB, I will be moving to the burner technique.
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