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Offlinenaturalistic123
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Questions about grains and their inherent properties
    #25313606 - 07/07/18 04:46 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Hey everyone, hope you guys are all well and thriving.  My prayers and best thoughts go out to you all!

So I know that the newcomers are reccomended to stick with the proven teks, and once they get a number of grows under their belt, and have an understanding of the process, then they are advised that it's okay to start experimenting, as long as it makes sense.

I'm not really looking to start experimenting just yet, I love reading and following the teks that are posted here.  After a number of successful BRF bulk grows, and now starting in on WBS (I have a small amount of WBS jars colonizing right now, differing brands with differing ingredients, prepared with differing hydrating teks),  I was wondering just what exactly the great thing about grains like rye, wbs, and oats are versus BRF.  Is it just simply that these grains can be shaken, and caused to colonize faster than flour?

I purchased a couple bags of long grain brown rice, just to experiment with making my own BRF in a blender (which comes out a good deal cheaper than buying prepacked BRF in my area), and while in the process of blending, I started thinking about the possibility of making WBS flour and mixing with vermiculite, a la PF tek but with WBS powder.

The only thing I can think of why people do not use WBS flour would be because it cannot be shaken like the whole grains could be.  And also perhaps that maybe a flour made of WBS or oats or rye would somehow be too dry without hydrating, even when mixed with vermiculite and brought to field capacity.  I think theoretically, one could use WBS flour like BRF, and just wanted to get some others thoughts on this.

maybe if WBS or other whole grains were powdered, they could be easily sterilized via boiling and steam?  Might this be a different approach for newbies looking to follow the PF tek?  I think if it were possible, making a wbs flour would be even cheaper for the newbie than BRF.

I'm not reccomending this to anyone by any means, just looking to get insights from people who are much more experienced than I on these fleeting thoughts I am having. Thank you guys so much for your time and comments!!


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OfflineVroomerMcZoomers
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Re: Questions about grains and their inherent properties [Re: naturalistic123]
    #25313614 - 07/07/18 04:51 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

" I was wondering just what exactly the great thing about grains like rye, wbs, and oats are versus BRF.  Is it just simply that these grains can be shaken, and caused to colonize faster than flour?"

As far as I know, that's about it.  That and it's easier to crumble it into bulk substrates.


As for the rest, I don't know why rice flour is the common one, instead of some other type of flour.  I can only assume that Mr. and Mrs.  P.F. tried a few different ones and figured brown rice works best.


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Re: Questions about grains and their inherent properties [Re: VroomerMcZoomers]
    #25313639 - 07/07/18 05:11 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

That's very interesting Natural. I blend my own brf to and the thought of blending other grains never crossed my mind. If it works, than it's cheaper atleast. If none of the more veteran guys write a good reason not to, I might try this with some oats soon.


For the bit Vroomer answered, I think i've seen it said somewhere Grain jars produce better because it's all food. PF jars are 2/3 verm.


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Re: Questions about grains and their inherent properties [Re: naturalistic123] * 1
    #25313680 - 07/07/18 05:37 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

naturalistic123 said:
The only thing I can think of why people do not use WBS flour would be because it cannot be shaken like the whole grains could be. 




i would never do wbs flour because it would fuck up the grinder. wbs is harder than rice.
kramer cakes are basically grain flour cakes. never done it before tho. too much of a pain in the ass imo.

also why bother? when using whole grains it IS the nutes and it holds the water.
you would need to add verm to the flour just like pf. and in that case? just do brf:shrug:

brf is insanely nutritious so its not like using grain flour grows super shrooms or anything.
and if you have the grains? just do whole grains. why spend the time and effort making whole grain flour?


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Re: Questions about grains and their inherent properties [Re: mushboy]
    #25313705 - 07/07/18 06:00 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mushboy said:
brf is insanely nutritious so its not like using grain flour grows super shrooms or anything.
and if you have the grains? just do whole grains. why spend the time and effort making whole grain flour?




For me it would be about cost. Putting spores into grains is a crap shoot. I'm doing BRF anyway so I can do spores while I clean cultures. I already grind rice for brf, grinding oats would be cheaper.


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Re: Questions about grains and their inherent properties [Re: LtLurker]
    #25313747 - 07/07/18 06:37 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah the cost is one reason to choose grains over BRF. Grains are cheaper in bulk


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Re: Questions about grains and their inherent properties [Re: pixelpopper]
    #25313759 - 07/07/18 06:45 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

BRF can be steam sterilized, I´m not so sure about grain flower.. Also BRF can be mixed with verm and water easily, I´ve tried about 8 different flours for verm cakes and not one of them had the texture that reminded of BRF. The only successful cakes I made was with Oatmeal grinded up.


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p9hu7 said:
So, why bother saying "why bother"? it is what it is. The purpose is to experiment with procedures that venture outside the norm, is it necessary for growing mushrooms? Big nope. Is it fucking cool to think and experiment? Resounding yes.


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Re: Questions about grains and their inherent properties [Re: mushboy]
    #25313982 - 07/07/18 09:24 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)



A bag of freshly ground WBS, complete with cracked corn and sunflower seed.  The cheapest of the cheapest, a 40lb bag for $15.  The processing took all of ten seconds, about the same time it took for my rice.  I didn't notice any extra wear on my blender. 

I think I may go ahead and make up a few PF style jars of these, and try inoculating with a syringe.  I think the only advantage to this would be a cheaper grain alternative than rice to those who have only worked with flour, especially if it is able to be steam sterilized, since alot of people who do cakes, and or BRF bulk might not have a pressure cooker. 

The difference in pricing would vary from locality to locality, substrate to substrate, but it might be possible to find something significantly cheaper for those who may be interested.


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Re: Questions about grains and their inherent properties [Re: naturalistic123]
    #25313994 - 07/07/18 09:33 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Dude I still like it. I have to do a straight set before an experiment(Last set was an  experiment). But I got a bunch of oats @ $20 for 80lbs. It's worth trying imo. I'ma be right behind you on this.


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Re: Questions about grains and their inherent properties [Re: LtLurker]
    #25314271 - 07/08/18 01:30 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Id like to find that 20$ for 80lb deal myself.  Although right now my goal is to get wbs methods down before i move on to a different material, since i have 80lbs of wbs!

My experiment is underway, a sampling of 5 half pint "WBSF" jars are being pc'd at the moment, at the ratio of the standard pf classic recipe, with the exception of wild bird seed flour substituted for the brown rice flour.  The pc cycle will be an hour and thirty minutes in a small electric plug in pc.  I don"t beleive this pc reaches 15psi.  Later experiments will involve only steam sterilizing the wbsf jars.

A small amount of b+ spore syringe solution (obtained from a trusted vendor) will be injected past the micropore tape tomorrow morning, and the tape will not be replaced after inoculation. 

Updates will be posted at the first signs of any growth, be it mycelium or contaminate culture.


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Re: Questions about grains and their inherent properties [Re: naturalistic123]
    #25314303 - 07/08/18 02:48 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Once you see how easy grains are to work with you'll get it.

They can be prepared en masse easily.  They can be found for prrtty cheap.

Growing on whole grains is the bees knees. It's so easy and they have so many nutrients and so many inoculation points. You get em colonized. You break em up, you mix em in.

All mushroom farms use whole grain spawn.

The grains themselves are packed with nutrition. A single grain has enough nutrients to grow several small mushrooms and the mushrooms don't need your help to break them down.

I can't wait to see what you grow. :cheers:


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Re: Questions about grains and their inherent properties [Re: naturalistic123]
    #25314631 - 07/08/18 11:01 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

You can use any grain flour for PF tek..
Its just that Brown rice is a grain you can actually find in flour form at the grocery store easily. They usually don't have rye or oat flour. And wheat flour(aka flour) turns into a mess on addition of water because of gluten.

Also it might be really hard to grind your grain into flour. You can grind it but probably not fine enough to work reliably, where BRF store bought is appropriately ground into flour.

Brf was the choice for PF tek to keep it noob friendly.
Any grain flour is stupid nutrition because you can fit a more than a half pint of whole grain into one PF cake once you grind it.

Of course all you really need to do is look up your question
Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Brans are superior to flours.  I've been recommending rice bran for brf tek for years. You can use just about any cereal bran or grain flour.  Lots of people grind rye or wheat berries for brf cakes.
RR




Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
You can make grain cakes by grinding the grains to flour and using just like brf.


RR




Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
It's been done successfully.  For some reason, whole grains need sterilization above 100C, but if ground into flour and mixed with verm, 90 minutes at 100C does the trick.  I have theories, but really can't say for sure why that's so. :shrug:
RR




Etc.. basically using stuff thats not BRF in cakes is super old news


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Re: Questions about grains and their inherent properties [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25314766 - 07/08/18 12:52 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

I understand.  I wasn't aware of it and had not read of anyone doing it before, I thought it was a novel idea.  I'm glad to see that it can be done, and that the grains can in fact be sterilized easier when ground to flour.


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Re: Questions about grains and their inherent properties [Re: naturalistic123]
    #25314809 - 07/08/18 01:15 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

I used to grow with a WBS mix that has broken grains in it (of part of the types in the mix), which is bad news.

Rye grains for example, are considered to be great because they are relatively large kernels (nice spacing and aeration and should be easier to keep them separate to shake) and whole kernels (which means protection from a contaminant just infiltrating it, and also that there is micronutrition included).

For spawn I think millet is better because of the small but separable kernels. With spawn you want small particles but not a great likelihood of everything growing fused together too quickly.

I switched to rye only recently and this year's fresh millet harvest should arrive very soon too. If you're not quick here, they treat most of it with antifungals, but not if you scoop the fresh harvest.

One disadvantage of BRF and verm is that the verm is inert so part of your substrate is there doing nothing. What's so great about cakes anyway? All it takes to facilitate other substrates is trays or other containers, and also you can just allow a jar of grains to grow into one chunk as well (although it could be a little crumbly).

You can use any kind of flour for PF Tek but it should be whole kernel like BRF because it includes the bran part of the kernel which provides the micronutrition. If you use white kinds of flour with this part of the kernel missing, you don't have any micronutrients.

Who cares if the kind of flour you use binds (which I think is because of starch and not really gluten) and "makes a mess", you are supposed to mix the dry ingredients (BRF and verm) together anyway first and after that it shouldn't matter what the water does?

PF tek is a neat formula for beginners and should require less extra materials or adjusting, but other than that I don't see what's so great about it. If you proceed to other methods I personally would definitely not hang on to part of it by trying to still make cakes or something like that.

Yeah OP is right that you can use other sources of whole kernel grains to turn into a flour for PF tek. But that doesn't mean it is what I would focus on to improve the tek. If you are going to invest energy, do it to graduate away from PF tek, not make it more efficient. IMHO

In that sense I agree with Tiger: using grains is simple in a different way, there are just different things to look out for. But in another sense it makes the PF tek look overly complicated. PF tek is good for fast results, but it can be restrictive beyond that. Grains give you more control which you need to learn to use, but it is more likely to open up a world of possibilities that don't conform to some tek.


Edited by Solipsis (07/08/18 01:20 PM)


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Re: Questions about grains and their inherent properties [Re: Solipsis] * 1
    #25314850 - 07/08/18 01:38 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

All this post was really about was theory of using other grains and flouring them, instead of BRF.  Bod has proven that this is, in fact, old news, so therefore my question was answered and also anyone else's who was interested.  I guess since this fact isn't in any tek (that i've read), and is relatively obsolete (because I haven't seen it discussed before), people that are just getting started haven't really heard of it.  I think it is an important peice of information, but I can also see how it may add more to the mix of confusion for begginers. 

To all those touting the wonders of using whole grains, I am in fact using whole WBS.  The theory was just a thought that crossed my mind, and since I hadn't heard it before, I thought it might be something new.  Thanks to everyone whose commented here, all of your information is very good and helpful, and I hope that someone just getting started and has a bit of insight might see that if they needed to, they could use a substitute for BRF when doing their PF tek.

I'm still going foward with the WBS flour experiment, and I suppose i'll still post updates on here, for anyone who is interested how it may compare to a BRF style grow.


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Re: Questions about grains and their inherent properties [Re: naturalistic123]
    #25314909 - 07/08/18 02:09 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

I would be interested in how fine the flour needs to be to be steam sterilized reliably


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Re: Questions about grains and their inherent properties [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25316048 - 07/09/18 02:19 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Just stumbled across this tidbit, maybe useful for anyone curious about this thread -
https://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/mushrooms_cultivation15.shtml


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Re: Questions about grains and their inherent properties [Re: naturalistic123]
    #25316190 - 07/09/18 06:55 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Some of the shit typed in that document is so stupid I can't read the rest.

Quote:


BARLEY OATS - Works but has much variation in nutrient content to be reliable. I've had BIG flushes with this stuff and some pretty good flops too




Blame failure on the type of grain...
Make up ridiculous theory that the nutrition content varies
Absolutely retarded

Quote:


using a single grain isolate






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Re: Questions about grains and their inherent properties [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25316399 - 07/09/18 10:56 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

I know, I thought so too.  It's probably from the 70's, but still interesting to see someone using different grains for the PF.


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Re: Questions about grains and their inherent properties [Re: naturalistic123]
    #25331174 - 07/17/18 11:11 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

- Update -

Hey guys, just a quick update on the progress of these WBS flour PF jars.  I made up five of them and injected with a b+ spore syringe from a trusted vendor 8 days ago.  The first signs of life are now visible in one of the jars.  It was actually noticed last night.  So say about eight days for germination, usually that's what I'd expect from BRF PF jars as well.

Hopefully the WBS was ground fine enough for the PC cycle to completely sterilize.  Now is the waiting game to see if the myc will take over before any contam can.

Pictures to come late tonight after work!


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