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frog48
Peasant



Registered: 03/08/13
Posts: 612
Loc: France
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Organic certification HWFP?
#25289108 - 06/24/18 11:00 AM (5 years, 7 months ago) |
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Hey there, is there anybody out there who has an organic certification using HWFP? I'm trying to convince my certification agency to allow us to use HWFP. Tracability of the hardwood is the main problem. How are things in the US?
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drake89
Mushroom Magnate



Registered: 06/26/11
Posts: 4,168
Loc: TN
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Re: Organic certification HWFP? [Re: frog48]
#25290503 - 06/25/18 07:14 AM (5 years, 7 months ago) |
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Show me a hardwood tree grown in the forest, not under organic conditions. It is true that ocassionally pine used for paper is fertilized here with nitrate.
What does the traceability show? Also, where are there still hardwood stands to harvest in the EU? Eastern europe?
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frog48
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Re: Organic certification HWFP? [Re: drake89]
#25290541 - 06/25/18 07:51 AM (5 years, 7 months ago) |
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Problem is that lots of sawmills treat their lumber with fongicides if they have to stock it. The factory that is making the fuel pellets is willing to state that they don't treat the wood but the sawmills are not.
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lipa

Registered: 07/24/07
Posts: 2,684
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Re: Organic certification HWFP? [Re: frog48]
#25291380 - 06/25/18 05:14 PM (5 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
frog48 said: Problem is that lots of sawmills treat their lumber with fongicides if they have to stock it. The factory that is making the fuel pellets is willing to state that they don't treat the wood but the sawmills are not.
Here in the US organics can be done with non organic materials. One reason is if there is no organic sources nearby and the other reason behind it is the sustained temps we treat the substrates at that break down the pesticides and fungicides. You might ask your Organic certifier if there is amendments to this situation, Button mushroom farmers can use non organic sources most all the time here because they compost the substrate and sustain high temperatures which break them down before growing mushrooms on them.
The whole organic issue with mushrooms in my opinion is ridiculous. Id like to see one study where pesticides or fungicides made it into the mushrooms being bought after the substrate was processed.
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frog48
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Re: Organic certification HWFP? [Re: lipa]
#25292126 - 06/26/18 12:45 AM (5 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
lipa said: The whole organic issue with mushrooms in my opinion is ridiculous. Id like to see one study where pesticides or fungicides made it into the mushrooms being bought after the substrate was processed.
Absolutely agree with that. BUT, certifying agent ECOCERT in France doesn't know anything about mushroom culture. To be on the safe side they just forbid everything. Same issue for the use of lime, I want to use that in my grain to try to control bacterial issues in summer but the EU forbid it. (in soils). I tried to argue with them that I'm not using it in soil. No way to convince them.
Thanks Lipa, I'll try to negotiate but I'm not very optimistic
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drake89
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Re: Organic certification HWFP? [Re: frog48]
#25292670 - 06/26/18 09:05 AM (5 years, 7 months ago) |
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Im using citric acid , not as cheap as hydrated lime but it is certainly an organic acid derived from fruit. Shoot for pH 4.5 for oysters and 5 for shiitake. I think it's better for the mycelium because mycelium makes acids naturally, but that's just an opinion.
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frog48
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Re: Organic certification HWFP? [Re: drake89]
#25293120 - 06/26/18 02:00 PM (5 years, 7 months ago) |
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Thanks for feedback Drake, where do you use the citric acid, in grain or in sub? Sounds worth to try, I'm especially intrested in something that allows me to control bacterial issues in grain. I'm buying in spawn and I'm trying to multiply that, but I f* up I don't know how many k's of rye because it gets too f* hot here.
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lipa

Registered: 07/24/07
Posts: 2,684
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Re: Organic certification HWFP? [Re: frog48]
#25293348 - 06/26/18 04:04 PM (5 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
frog48 said: Same issue for the use of lime, I want to use that in my grain to try to control bacterial issues in summer but the EU forbid it.
You don't need lime in your grain spawn. Use oyster shell flour and mined gypsum.
Lime is not going to stop bacterial issues in spawn.
Are you saying your incubation space is hot? Heat is not going to start bacterial issues. The spawn you are getting is crap or you are not properly sterilizing it. Heat is an issue with spawn. I try to keep things under 80 during spawn run or things go too slow. I never have issues with bacteria just because it gets too hot though.
Edited by lipa (06/26/18 04:12 PM)
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frog48
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Re: Organic certification HWFP? [Re: lipa]
#25294064 - 06/27/18 12:26 AM (5 years, 7 months ago) |
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I see, I'm already using gypsum in grain, what is the Oyster shell flour for? What is the difference between mined and normal gypsum by the way?
Strange that heat plays no role at all with bacterial issues in grain. I had the impression that my spawn quality went down when heat goes up.
Even in incubation, I recently installed fans to get an airflow going around my incubating shiitake bags and since I can see areas recorvering that had poor mycelium growth.
But now that you mention it it might be a sterilization problem again.... Sure is that the extra airflow stimulates mycelium growth significantly. I noticed however that spots that had poor mycelium coverage and that are exposed to airflow show thick white growth but don't blister. And if you birth them pins never pop up on these former weak spots.
Thanks Lipa for shedding some light in the darkness
excuse me for the crappy pic
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lipa

Registered: 07/24/07
Posts: 2,684
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Re: Organic certification HWFP? [Re: frog48]
#25296790 - 06/28/18 11:03 AM (5 years, 7 months ago) |
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Look here at all the gypsum. You can search anything you want to find out the reason behind not being able to use it.
Gypsum can also be a by-product of the industrial industry. That's what you want to stay away from.
I use oyster shell flour for calcium and gypsum for calcium and sulfur. If you use these your mycelium will be much healthier and brighter. And your PH will not sway so much before it is inoculated.
For oysters you can just use the flour. I use enough to keep the grain separated and prevent stickiness. If your using it for shiitake spawn use less flour and use the gypsum. The gypsum help shiitake a lot.
If your finding weak spots in your substrates I would look into either bacteria, water content or any amendments you are adding that might cause Co2 lockup. +
Extra: Why do you use spawn bags for your substrate bags? You should be using top filter only bags for your substrate blocks when you use amendments and substrates that leach when heated. I use the spawn bags like I see you use in the picture for grain only and they are incubated in a clean room. Seepage doesn't happen much with grain. The seepage can cause bacteria to make it's way through the filters and into the bags when used for substrates.. Don't get me wrong though, Saco2 bags are awesome. You just need to use the right one for the right job.
Edited by lipa (06/28/18 11:12 AM)
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drake89
Mushroom Magnate



Registered: 06/26/11
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Re: Organic certification HWFP? [Re: lipa]
#25298905 - 06/29/18 12:21 PM (5 years, 7 months ago) |
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This is just a shot in the dark but I found i can dial way back on the moisture content closer to 50%+/- and it helps with the large grain bags. Fully hydrated grains I found can suffocate in the bottom of those giant bags especially if they're soft . Hope that helps, but I don't know how you're prepping grain.
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Quadman
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Re: Organic certification HWFP? [Re: drake89]
#25299001 - 06/29/18 01:09 PM (5 years, 7 months ago) |
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Excess moisture was the main cause of most of my failures.
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frog48
Peasant



Registered: 03/08/13
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Re: Organic certification HWFP? [Re: Quadman]
#25299097 - 06/29/18 01:55 PM (5 years, 7 months ago) |
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Thanks guys, that's a lot of useful info, too much work now but i'll answer later because there's lots to explain.
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frog48
Peasant



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Loc: France
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Re: Organic certification HWFP? [Re: lipa]
#25300432 - 06/30/18 09:06 AM (5 years, 7 months ago) |
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Ok, finally got my hands free to write a decent answer. As for the gypsum, didn't know that it's also an industrial by product. I got mine directly from a gypsum mine where they produce plaster by simpy heating raw gypsum, near Carpentras. They gave me 1000 k's for free, a shovel took it out of hole in the mountain. More than worth the three hours drive.
The weak spots, it might be sub that is too wet indeed. That or bacteria. I'm sterilizing with a RR style woodfired boiler. I recently connected a third barrel and may be the steam pressure is not enough to handle 80 bags at a time. The third vessel is an old SS reservoir used for cheese making. I can pack 30 bags in it but they're packed tightly. May be they need longer cooking time because steam is not circulating around the bags.

After 17 hours of steaming the bags come out super wet. That brings me to LIPA's remark about the SACo2 bags. I always thought the SACo2 were the best bags on the market, so I never considered using Unicorn. Also because my incubation is not HEPA- filtered and I thought the Unicorns were more prone to contamintion. But from what Lipa said I gather that the SACo2 filters probably absorb water much easier than the Unicorns because the filter surface is much bigger. And if they leach through the sub, bacteria can make their way in easier in as well, if I understood Lipa well.
So I guess I should switch to unicorn for my sub. The weird thing is that I've had periods without any issues with great yields with Saco2. Just the past two weeks harvest dropped from 20 % and more to hardly 10% !!! 
Problem is that I changed several things at the same time. I switched shiitake strain from 3782 to 3790 and the third barrel I added to the boiler and if that was not enough I switched to wheat in stead of rye grain. Go and find out where the problem starts.
@drake thanks for the advice on grain prep. At the moment I pressure cook G1 and G2 (soak and simmer). Final spawn is 2.5 kilo grain in spawn bags with water added to 4 kg. I leave them 24 hours in the bags and then they' re cooked with the sub in the wood fired boiler for about 17 hours.
With this method spawn quality varies. That's why I recently started to buy in spawn and multiply it, with little succes by the way

Sorry for the novel
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