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Invisibleremake
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Re: Being calm/anxious is a choice. [Re: Freedom]
    #25265305 - 06/13/18 10:22 AM (5 years, 9 months ago)

Well personally I don’t think we can escape the self completely. But socially it seems to be somewhat of a fabrication. And it is mainly this aspect of anxiety I guess I’m talking about.

The angst we cause in relation to one another.

The mode of being we couple to beliefs about ourselves and the world around us.

I’m not able to escape my body or the nature of reality, aging, random events etc. :tongue:...as far as I'm aware of. :wink:

But it seems like I have some choice on my beliefs, perceptions and behaviors. And am able to train and customize various aspects of it...

Not saying it’s easy though, because I’m just fresh out of a depression episode...

Death seems to be a large part of our lives. And fear seems just like the fear of fear...But what are we fearing really?

Death? What is 'death'? And what aspect of it do we fear?

How can we deal with that, or use it for something positive?

Edited by remake (06/13/18 10:34 AM)

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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Being calm/anxious is a choice. [Re: remake]
    #25268980 - 06/14/18 10:45 PM (5 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

FranniePilgrim said:
At the moment, I am thinking that being calm is a literal choice we make. That anxiety is a choice as well. Along with all our conflict in daily life.

These seem to be choices we make. ....






I think you reach your conclusion because you are thinking in very dualistic terms. Only anxiety versus calm. However the very nature of ego or self is to have conflicting desires, in a society that makes ambiguous demands, while life presents many difficulties of it's own. The result is stress on may levels, which does not equate with 'calm'.

Before proclaiming such a simple 'truism' I suggest keeping a dream journal for a few months,      ( we dream about 6 times a night) and seeing if they are all happy and stress free dreams. You might be surprised ...

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Invisibleremake
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Re: Being calm/anxious is a choice. [Re: laughingdog]
    #25269219 - 06/15/18 02:10 AM (5 years, 9 months ago)

Well it’s not a contest, that’s what I’m saying

It’s not anything vs anything unless we make it so

We choose how we perceive and interpret feelings and thoughts and dreams

And can play with them how we like.

Whatever authority rules the interpretation physically or psychologically takes precedence

But this authority is an illusion, and a reality. Once again how we choose to interpret or perceive

Perhaps we are in equilibrium and play with concepts to feel and think...:tongue:

I had a dream last night and I stayed at a hotel that went far into the sky. Me and a few friends were staying there for a music festival. I went back to get something from our apartment and a dude was in our sky room. I didn’t know him so I chased him out. He pulled a knife on me but I just stayed calm...:shrug:

I just calmly backed away into the bathroom and shut the door...

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Being calm/anxious is a choice. [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #25269306 - 06/15/18 04:44 AM (5 years, 9 months ago)

when you say "in fact there are djinn on the planet that are thousands of years old", you have to back that up in this forum;
you can get away with that sort of unsubstantiated declaration however in "spirituality and mysticism".


--------------------
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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: Being calm/anxious is a choice. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25271095 - 06/15/18 09:57 PM (5 years, 9 months ago)

Well part of psychology is knowing when you or a person is telling the truth..

For a master Psychologist the ability to discern between falsehood and truth is obvious..

A person can be seen to be telling the truth.. not based on studies or other external evidence but by the merit or honesty vs the vein of falsehood in their posts..

This has come from personal experiences that I met a form of Jesus.. posing as a Satellite repair man IS true!

So I'll leave it up to you to discern the truth or not in my posts..

But at minimal.. those and these are my perceptions.. Things that I BELIEVE are true..

Thanks for your time.. you have a sharp intellect RGV

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Invisiblepur3bind
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Re: Being calm/anxious is a choice. [Re: laughingdog]
    #25271110 - 06/15/18 10:08 PM (5 years, 9 months ago)





Before proclaiming such a simple 'truism' I suggest keeping a dream journal for a few months,      ( we dream about 6 times a night) and seeing if they are all happy and stress free dreams. You might be surprised ...




This guy has a point actually.
I think I might go back on doing this again as well.


--------------------
"There are times— and this would be a great study for somebody to do—there have been periods in English when there were emotions that don't exist anymore, because the words have been lost. There are colors that don't exist anymore because the words have been lost." — Terence McKenna (The Archaic Revival: 1991)


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: Being calm/anxious is a choice. [Re: pur3bind]
    #25271178 - 06/15/18 10:52 PM (5 years, 9 months ago)

I think my dreams are about usurping destiny from people and my past lives..

And in saying that I tell you the truth that my dreams are most often tense...extremely tense..or fear based..

But I always think I've accomplished allot when I wake up..

So that in and of itself..brings some solace..and peace..

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OfflineDuncan Rowhl
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Re: Being calm/anxious is a choice. [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #25271524 - 06/16/18 05:45 AM (5 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Amen!

Chronic anxiety and depression are activities we choose to engage in.

We don't "have" anxiety anymore than we "have" anger. Language can reveal confusion & lack of understanding. .





Such a tidy claim really demands the elaboration that it pertains to psychological anxiety - as and where those medical cases can actually be identified, amidst the numerous causes.  The same applies to depression.

The importance is stressed for the fact that many so-called 'professionals' are bundling 'anxiety' in the very same manner with the same concise, blanket claims, readily regarding therapy whilst overlooking serious, physical, medical conditions pertaining the endocrine, nervous and circulatory systems, which function, or indeed, malfunction not upon the basis of choice.


Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Language can reveal confusion & lack of understanding.





Q.E.D.

'Anxiety' and 'Depression' being two such labels which are overexploited and misunderstood - rather than us appreciating of all individual causes, possibilities and characteristics pertaining to each, which are both nothing more than words to loosely describe resulting conditions. :thumbup:

Edited by Duncan Rowhl (06/16/18 06:53 AM)

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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Being calm/anxious is a choice. [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
    #25271882 - 06/16/18 10:00 AM (5 years, 9 months ago)

Theodore Rubin, (former President of the American Institute of Psychoanalysis) the author of 30
books including the nature of chronic anger and self-hatred, states this about the topic of stress

"Anxiety is the royal road to discovering illusions."

It's interesting when we vigorously explore the root of anxiety what we find. The thinking that fuels it. 

Stress / anger / depression can't be sustained without the contribution of supporting thinking. 

Of course anxiety is a positive highly adaptive evolutionary trait that's been critical for
our species success. Some anxiety is natural. When we engage in ongoing chronic
anxiety (and depression and anger) there are certainly physiological repercussions.

The brain neuro-chemistry of a driver engaging in road rage changes, but if he shoots and kills another
driver who cut him off, it's inaccurate to blame his brain changes, as they came after his stress and anger.

We live in an age when we pathologize many experiences that are not brain defects or malfunctions.

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OfflineDuncan Rowhl
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Re: Being calm/anxious is a choice. [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #25271987 - 06/16/18 10:58 AM (5 years, 9 months ago)

This is the kind of 'professional' I refer to (besides doctors) and herein is the issue.

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
"Anxiety is the royal road to discovering illusions."

Theodore Rubin, (former President of the American Institute of
We live in an age when we pathologize many experiences that are not brain defects or malfunctions.




This seems to suggest that the physical malfunctions (which are indeed often real as a cause of anxiety) are but mere illusions?

Edited by Duncan Rowhl (06/16/18 11:05 AM)

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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Being calm/anxious is a choice. [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
    #25272002 - 06/16/18 11:08 AM (5 years, 9 months ago)

A physiological change that results from emotional disturbances (violent rage, stress, depression) is one thing.

The theory chronic disturbances are caused by physiological malfunctions or chemical defects is another.

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OfflineDuncan Rowhl
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Re: Being calm/anxious is a choice. [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
    #25272015 - 06/16/18 11:16 AM (5 years, 9 months ago)

Angina is a precursor to anxiety which is not controllable by choosing not to witness it.

Likewise, an under / over active Thyroid yielding anxiety also is largely uncontrollable without medication.

The physical defects are the causes - not the repercussions.

A person who can think their way out of anxiety suffers from anxiety induced by mental processes - worry, anger - Not induced by physical defects.

Anyone who assumes that anxiety only surfaces from worrying (doctor or otherwise), is leading a very naive, illusive, yet healthy lifestyle....or they are simply focusing solely on the brain as a Psychoanalyst. :wink:

The overall point is, that 'anxiety' isn't as black and white as some people claim, so we shouldn't simply jump to the conclusion of relating it with common mental stress.

Edited by Duncan Rowhl (06/16/18 11:30 AM)

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Being calm/anxious is a choice. [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
    #25272273 - 06/16/18 01:27 PM (5 years, 9 months ago)

I think all my anxieties have real memories with strong feelings behind them.


--------------------
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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: Being calm/anxious is a choice. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25273454 - 06/16/18 11:24 PM (5 years, 9 months ago)

So is this about fight or flight responses?

I was walking down an alleyway at dark.. and when I was about one quarter in.. I saw some feet moving in the glare of the light.. I hesitated and was wondering what it was.. then near the end of the alley I saw a creature hobbling like a raccoon or skunk or something..

I figured if I was to continue I might have a confrontation..

Raccoons have claws and usually hang out in a gang..

And then its quite obvious what the problem would be with a skunk..

So I turned around and walked along the street.. then came to my house

I was scared as soon as I saw the beast.. but I had to make a cold calculation in case I was to go forward.. and face my destiny so to speak..

But my calculation said it wad bad news to continue down that alley.. and so I ultimately saved myself in a way..

Only problem that wasn't fulfilled was my curiosity and what would've happened..

So I was tempted by my fight response.. but ultimately went with my flight response..

My new theory is that one could always find a safe way out.. or most of the time at least.

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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Being calm/anxious is a choice. [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #25273601 - 06/17/18 02:02 AM (5 years, 9 months ago)

calm vs anxiety
choice vs chemistry & circumstance
these notions can be viewed as dualities, or opposites written in stone,
or perhaps as polarities on a spectrum, with many gradations

true mind body control,
however doesn't seem to happen generally without a lot of committed practice
(although a few 'rare birds' get a gift for it)
hence, martial arts temples, monasteries, and so on

just attempting to have a good attitude, is child's play by comparison.

for example:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=WIM+HOF+%22Iceman%22+Method

and

detail from video





this could be an interpretation of deep 'calm'

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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Being calm/anxious is a choice. [Re: laughingdog]
    #25273630 - 06/17/18 02:47 AM (5 years, 9 months ago)

and the above examples have perhaps some emphasis on the physical

from the the more mental side, Freud , who was wrong about many things, seems to have nailed it in regards to Defense Mechanisms. And of course to think one has none, is evidence of having at least one!

see for example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_mechanisms

"Defense Mechanisms

Defense mechanisms may result in healthy or unhealthy consequences depending on the circumstances and frequency with which the mechanism is used.[2] In psychoanalytic theory, defence mechanisms (German: Abwehrmechanismen) are psychological strategies brought into play by the unconscious mind[3] to manipulate, deny, or distort reality in order to defend against feelings of anxiety and unacceptable impulses and to maintain one's self-schema or other schemas.[4] These processes that manipulate, deny, or distort reality may include the following: repression, or the burying of a painful feeling or thought from one's awareness even though it may resurface in a symbolic form;[2] identification, incorporating an object or thought into oneself;[5] and rationalization, the justification of one's behaviour and motivations by substituting "good" acceptable reasons for the actual motivations.[2][6] In psychoanalytic theory, repression is considered as the basis for other defence mechanisms.[2]

Healthy persons normally use different defences throughout life. An ego defence mechanism becomes pathological only when its persistent use leads to maladaptive behaviour such that the physical or mental health of the individual is adversely affected.

Among the purposes of ego defence mechanisms is to protect the mind/self/ego from anxiety or social sanctions or to provide a refuge from a situation with which one cannot currently cope.[7]

One resource used to evaluate these mechanisms is the Defense Style Questionnaire (DSQ-40).[8][9]

........

In 1936, Anna Freud enumerated the ten defence mechanisms that appear in the works of her father, Sigmund Freud: 1. Repression, 2. Regression, 3. Reaction formation, 4. Isolation, 5. Undoing, 6. Projection, 7. Introjection, 8. Turning against one's own person, 9. Reversal into the opposite, 10. Sublimation or displacement.[14] "

--------

my comment ... note the phrase ...."and to maintain one's self-schema [or other schemas]"...
this is a definition of ego or self -- in other words the self is inherently anxious -- as many have pointed out -- it feels separate, knows it is mortal, and at least un-or subconsciously knows it is subject to pain at any moment, and that ultimately life is extremely uncontrollable, & that many or most (of its) desires are unfulfillable, hence mechanisms to avoid this scary stuff, are necessary, to be able to function; as well as mechanisms to  avoid awareness of one's faults and or 'shadow side' or socially unacceptable impulses.

So the idea behind self work or therapy or growth... (or whateveryouwantocallit) is to face anxieties in one self, feel them, have the patience to experience them, and understand and work with them and not to deny and banish, and pretend one is perfect, boast about it and wonder why life seems flat.

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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Being calm/anxious is a choice. [Re: laughingdog]
    #25273646 - 06/17/18 03:15 AM (5 years, 9 months ago)

"in other words the self is inherently anxious"
and if we substitute the word 'suffering' we get
what Buddhism taught 2500 years ago, as usually translated in english ... or ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukkha:
other possible synonyms for dukkha are: "  "suffering", "pain", "unsatisfactoriness" or "stress".[1][2][3][4] It refers to the fundamental unsatisfactoriness and painfulness of mundane life."

As many of us probably already know, Buddhist teaching is about generally seeing thru and letting go of self ; rather than emotional processing of our yukky stuff, as in current therapy / growth work; but in any case both see, taking life as personally, as we may tend to do, as more of a problem than life itself, which we may often think is the problem.

In any case, in summary, wanting to be free of anxiety, happens because we are anxious about being anxious, and desire to perfect a self as well as preserve & protect it. The exact opposite of the only remedy to the knot.

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Invisibleremake
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Re: Being calm/anxious is a choice. [Re: laughingdog]
    #25274367 - 06/17/18 11:54 AM (5 years, 9 months ago)

Just to put it out there, I am not saying anxiety or depression is something easy to get out of, only that a large part of the confusion that comes a long with it, can to a certain degree be controlled.

And, it seems to me, regarding the way our society is currently constructed as if we are choosing to induce this in each other for whatever reasons we can dream of.

Think about this scenario:

A person is born within a group of people who deprives him/her from their physical and psychological needs if he/she does not follow a set of rules that define the group. Only when the person has adhered to all the rules, he or she will receive 'relief' from the induced deprivation.

It can be so extreme, that if one is to help the deprived person before his/her 'initiation' is complete, you will face ostracization from the group.

All these 'rules' are fabricated and are not rooted in logic, but belief systems that undermine the health and freedoms of the individual.

Thus, social anxiety and depression relating to social issues are completely illogical, although their repercussions can be very real.

It seems to me that when we feel a feeling we continuously seek objects and thoughts to latch them on to. When none is found, often we may escape to elaborate theories that are not necessarily based in fact.

However, if one is mindful enough, just as one moves from a loud area to a quiet room. One can, in some sense, do this in mind. One can reroute the agency of one's thoughts and feelings from something 'unknown' to your individual self (something known).

To give over one's agency to 'something else', is to give in to fear/depression/anxiety.

That which seeks to overpower, can be overpowered, by removing oneself from the agency of the 'main authority'.

We can choose when in an anxious or depressive state to seek help or relief, without feeling guilt or shame, and by whichever method is most beneficiary or healthy.

Sometimes it feels as if one does not have a choice, as if one is trapped. But, simply seeking help and truly trying to get back to one's human condition can provide great relief.

For example,

Perhaps, all one needs is the physical and psychological comfort of another individual. The angst that surrounds such a simple thing, to hold and be comforted by someone, is blasted out of proportion by today's society to extreme degrees.

I'm going off a bit here, I hope some of this jargon made sense.

Peace :peace:

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Invisibleremake
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Re: Being calm/anxious is a choice. [Re: remake]
    #25274393 - 06/17/18 12:03 PM (5 years, 9 months ago)

So it seems to me, as if our angst and fears are rooted in a disconnection and denial of our human nature, in the most simplistic terms.

Perhaps we are trapped in symbolism or superstition regarding the extremely extrapolated 'meaning' of things.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Being calm/anxious is a choice. [Re: laughingdog]
    #25275725 - 06/18/18 02:16 AM (5 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
and the above examples have perhaps some emphasis on the physical

from the the more mental side, Freud , who was wrong about many things, seems to have nailed it in regards to Defense Mechanisms. And of course to think one has none, is evidence of having at least one!

see for example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_mechanisms

"Defense Mechanisms

Defense mechanisms may result in healthy or unhealthy consequences depending on the circumstances and frequency with which the mechanism is used.[2] In psychoanalytic theory, defence mechanisms (German: Abwehrmechanismen) are psychological strategies brought into play by the unconscious mind[3] to manipulate, deny, or distort reality in order to defend against feelings of anxiety and unacceptable impulses and to maintain one's self-schema or other schemas.[4] These processes that manipulate, deny, or distort reality may include the following: repression, or the burying of a painful feeling or thought from one's awareness even though it may resurface in a symbolic form;[2] identification, incorporating an object or thought into oneself;[5] and rationalization, the justification of one's behaviour and motivations by substituting "good" acceptable reasons for the actual motivations.[2][6] In psychoanalytic theory, repression is considered as the basis for other defence mechanisms.[2]

Healthy persons normally use different defences throughout life. An ego defence mechanism becomes pathological only when its persistent use leads to maladaptive behaviour such that the physical or mental health of the individual is adversely affected.

Among the purposes of ego defence mechanisms is to protect the mind/self/ego from anxiety or social sanctions or to provide a refuge from a situation with which one cannot currently cope.[7]

One resource used to evaluate these mechanisms is the Defense Style Questionnaire (DSQ-40).[8][9]

........

In 1936, Anna Freud enumerated the ten defence mechanisms that appear in the works of her father, Sigmund Freud: 1. Repression, 2. Regression, 3. Reaction formation, 4. Isolation, 5. Undoing, 6. Projection, 7. Introjection, 8. Turning against one's own person, 9. Reversal into the opposite, 10. Sublimation or displacement.[14] "

--------

my comment ... note the phrase ...."and to maintain one's self-schema [or other schemas]"...
this is a definition of ego or self -- in other words the self is inherently anxious -- as many have pointed out -- it feels separate, knows it is mortal, and at least un-or subconsciously knows it is subject to pain at any moment, and that ultimately life is extremely uncontrollable, & that many or most (of its) desires are unfulfillable, hence mechanisms to avoid this scary stuff, are necessary, to be able to function; as well as mechanisms to  avoid awareness of one's faults and or 'shadow side' or socially unacceptable impulses.

So the idea behind self work or therapy or growth... (or whateveryouwantocallit) is to face anxieties in one self, feel them, have the patience to experience them, and understand and work with them and not to deny and banish, and pretend one is perfect, boast about it and wonder why life seems flat.


,
these are patterns of behavior, not exactly mechanisms, not mechanical, and not chemical, at best these are mnemonics and labels to help a practitioner apply awareness to the client/patient/subject who needs assistance/healing.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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