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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Humans of the Right Wing: AsCompendium [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27392724 - 07/18/21 05:26 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
2004 invasion of Iraq



I don't know, what methods are you referring to?




Seems pretty goddamn obvious, doesn't it?

But I can see why you'd miss it, it doesn't fit your narrative.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Humans of the Right Wing: AsCompendium [Re: Kryptos]
    #27392829 - 07/18/21 06:33 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

You all seem to know.  Why not just tell me?  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Humans of the Right Wing: AsCompendium [Re: Kryptos]
    #27392833 - 07/18/21 06:36 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Again, you can argue that point with koods and The Ecstatic; I think you're missing the bigger picture of the greater good Assange is doing by revealing corruption in the first place.




Julian assange sent the password to an anti-Trump website to the Trump campaign. You hate government corruption  but seem to not give a shit about the corruption of Wikileaks.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Humans of the Right Wing: AsCompendium [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27392847 - 07/18/21 06:51 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
You all seem to know.  Why not just tell me?  :shrug:




The 2004 invasion of Iraq.

Shall I repeat myself again?

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Offlinekoods
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Re: Humans of the Right Wing: AsCompendium [Re: Kryptos]
    #27392884 - 07/18/21 07:25 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Oh I love this part when falcon plays dumb and then we get two pages of debate about the meaning of a word


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Humans of the Right Wing: AsCompendium [Re: koods]
    #27392959 - 07/18/21 08:14 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
The 2004 invasion of Iraq also exposed government wrongdoing. Do you consider debate about the methods used in this instance to also be unimportant in comparison?



I don't know, what methods are you referring to?



Quote:

Kryptos said:
The 2004 invasion of Iraq.

Shall I repeat myself again?



No, I asked what methods shivas was referring when he asked "Do you consider debate about the methods used in this instance to also be unimportant in comparison?"


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Humans of the Right Wing: AsCompendium [Re: koods]
    #27392961 - 07/18/21 08:15 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Oh I love this part when falcon plays dumb and then we get two pages of debate about the meaning of a word



I'm not debating the meaning of any word.  I'm asking what methods shivas was referring when he asked "Do you consider debate about the methods used in this instance to also be unimportant in comparison?"

Feel free to answer if you know.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Offlinekoods
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Re: Humans of the Right Wing: AsCompendium [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27392968 - 07/18/21 08:21 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

The invasion of Iraq


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Humans of the Right Wing: AsCompendium [Re: koods]
    #27392984 - 07/18/21 08:40 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

We invaded Iraq to expose wrongdoing in the Government?  :wtf:

The accusation against Assange is that he might maybe be withholding significant information.  We don't know if that's actually the case or not, but for the sake of argument, even if it were true, Assange had that right.

Invading a country and killing hundreds of thousands of people in order to expose Government wrongdoing (thats what you and Kryptos are saying, right?) would of course be morally wrong.

Do you not see the difference between killing hundreds of thousands of people and withholding information that you're not required to give up, let alone that you're not even supposed to give up (if he's withholding significant information at all, which we don't know)?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Humans of the Right Wing: AsCompendium [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27393391 - 07/19/21 08:36 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Needs a little context though, doesn’t it?

The 2004 invasion of Iraq exposed government wrongdoing on the part of Saddam Hussein, doesn’t mean it was good.


I’m not saying one way or another, but I think a debate is necessary for most people to arrive at the conclusion of whether or not it’s a “fact” to begin with. Most Americans can’t even differentiate Wikileaks and ed snowden.



Sorry, you just lost me.

What needs context?

What does "good" have to do with exposing government wrongdoing on the part of Saddam Hussein?

Are you saying it is necessary to have a debate to determine whether Wikileaks is releasing facts?  What have they release that turned out untrue?




The context of the level of wrongdoing. That determines whether the methods of exposing said wrongdoing are good or bad (which is debatable on some cost/benefit analysis scale).

2004 invasion of Iraq, we knew Saddam had committed atrocities, that his ruling party was largely corrupt and Saddam was funneling public money to keep his grip on power. You said your position is “that debate is highly unimportant compared to the fact that Assange exposed government wrongdoing.” By this logic, the 2004 invasion of Iraq was good, because the exposing of wrongdoing on behalf of Saddam far outweighs any “highly unimportant debate” that would decide whether the consequences of exposing that wrongdoing were worth exposing it in the first place.

“Good” means does that exposing justify the consequences. It’s not a clear yes or no, in Iraq I think we can confidently said it would’ve been “good” to let Saddam stay in power rather than get 2 million people killed and a subcontinent destabilized.

I’m not disputing whether they’re facts or not, that’s irrelevant, although the haven’t seen evidence of Wikileaks releasing false information. I’m saying the editorializing and the promotion of certain facts over others provides evidence of an agenda. It’s like when the local news reports on petty thefts and gang violence every single night on the news, and not a peep about climate change or war or corruption. The problem with that type of proportionality isn’t that the news is lying about thefts or gang violence, it’s that there’s a predetermined agenda that decides which facts should be amplified, and which should be muted.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Humans of the Right Wing: AsCompendium [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27393580 - 07/19/21 10:56 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
2004 invasion of Iraq, we knew Saddam had committed atrocities, that his ruling party was largely corrupt and Saddam was funneling public money to keep his grip on power. You said your position is “that debate is highly unimportant compared to the fact that Assange exposed government wrongdoing.” By this logic, the 2004 invasion of Iraq was good, because the exposing of wrongdoing on behalf of Saddam far outweighs any “highly unimportant debate” that would decide whether the consequences of exposing that wrongdoing were worth exposing it in the first place.

“Good” means does that exposing justify the consequences. It’s not a clear yes or no, in Iraq I think we can confidently said it would’ve been “good” to let Saddam stay in power rather than get 2 million people killed and a subcontinent destabilized.



You misunderstood my point.  I was discussing whether the methods used to expose wrong doing were right or not, I didn't touch on whether actions taken as a result of discovering such wrong doing were right or not.

I'm saying that gaining the knowledge that "Saddam had committed atrocities, that his ruling party was largely corrupt and Saddam was funneling public money to keep his grip on power" was a good thing.  Actions taken as a result of such knowledge have nothing to do with gaining that knowledge.

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
I’m not disputing whether they’re facts or not, that’s irrelevant, although the haven’t seen evidence of Wikileaks releasing false information. I’m saying the editorializing and the promotion of certain facts over others provides evidence of an agenda.



And I'm saying we have no evidence that Wikileaks is promoting certain significant facts over others.  Wikileaks said the information it had on Trump was insignificant.  We don't know if that's true or not, but the media is trying to pretend he's withholding significant information without any evidence to back up that claim.

Shivas is saying he wants to see that information and decide for himself if it's significant or not.  But you've already argued Assange shouldn't be releasing insignificant information.

He's damned if he does, and he's damned if he doesn't.  :shrug:

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
It’s like when the local news reports on petty thefts and gang violence every single night on the news, and not a peep about climate change or war or corruption. The problem with that type of proportionality isn’t that the news is lying about thefts or gang violence, it’s that there’s a predetermined agenda that decides which facts should be amplified, and which should be muted.



I completely agree that's what the local news is currently doing.  But we have zero evidence that Assange is withholding significant information from us.  It's another fake news story the mainstream media is pushing to try and discredit Assange.

Is it possible he's withholding significant information?  Sure it's possible, but Assange had been pushing very hard to get dirt on Trump.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Humans of the Right Wing: AsCompendium [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27393596 - 07/19/21 11:10 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

And as you know, the mainstream media is more than happy to report dirt on Trump.  Anyone who has dirt on Trump doesn't even have to go through Wikileaks to get the information out, they just take it to CNN, MSNBC, etc.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Humans of the Right Wing: AsCompendium [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27393935 - 07/19/21 03:23 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

You misunderstood my point.  I was discussing whether the methods used to expose wrong doing were right or not, I didn't touch on whether actions taken as a result of discovering such wrong doing were right or not.

I'm saying that gaining the knowledge that "Saddam had committed atrocities, that his ruling party was largely corrupt and Saddam was funneling public money to keep his grip on power" was a good thing.  Actions taken as a result of such knowledge have nothing to do with gaining that knowledge.




Actions taken as a result of such knowledge has EVERYTHING to do with it. Going back to the local news analogy, it would be like if there was a one hour segment every single night on local news across the country detailing how a disproportionate amount of Jewish people are wealthy and control vast portions of the media. They can’t play the “knowledge is power” card when antisemitic hate crimes surge, and pretend that focusing on a specific piece of information doesn’t imply importance, or invite implications for the viewer to make for themselves. All of these things are absolutely taken into account when the media chooses what to cover, how to cover it, what language to use, what imagery, etc. 

The information being shared, and it’s validity, is not what’s in question. The consequences of that information being amplified above other information in an attempt to mold the narrative, that’s why people like Jeff Bezos buy a money pit like the Washington Post. The way the information is transmitted is far more important than the information itself. You know this, you saw how elegantly the discourse around Wikileaks went from “should the US be doing war crimes” to “Assange is a Putin ally, and rapist.”


Quote:

And I'm saying we have no evidence that Wikileaks is promoting certain significant facts over others.  Wikileaks said the information it had on Trump was insignificant.  We don't know if that's true or not, but the media is trying to pretend he's withholding significant information without any evidence to back up that claim.

Shivas is saying he wants to see that information and decide for himself if it's significant or not.  But you've already argued Assange shouldn't be releasing insignificant information.

He's damned if he does, and he's damned if he doesn't.  :shrug:




Choosing to not publish the RNC emails on the basis of “it was not (or less) interesting” isn’t a very good justification for an organization ostensibly dedicated to the liberation of information to withhold emails of the political machine propelling Trump to the most powerful office in the world. Now I’m not gonna sit here and act like Julian Assange made Hillary Clinton lose the election because she did that herself, but simply releasing the RNC leaks would’ve removed any doubt.

I have no doubts the media will lie to scandalize Assange, because they’ve already been doing it, but that also doesn’t mean that Assange didn’t or doesn’t have his own motivations for Wikileaks. When people get power they invariably use it to extend that power, it’s true for people we agree with and people we disagree with, and Assange had motives for making the Democrats look particularly bad, considering the Obama administration’s ruthless pursuit of whistleblowers. Maybe he got an assurance from the Trump campaign that he’d stop pursuing Wikileaks and reneged on that promise once elected, who knows. We can’t pretend to know the consequences of the facts when we probably don’t even know 1% of the facts.


--------------------

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Humans of the Right Wing: AsCompendium [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27394019 - 07/19/21 04:16 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
2004 invasion of Iraq, we knew Saddam had committed atrocities, that his ruling party was largely corrupt and Saddam was funneling public money to keep his grip on power. You said your position is “that debate is highly unimportant compared to the fact that Assange exposed government wrongdoing.” By this logic, the 2004 invasion of Iraq was good, because the exposing of wrongdoing on behalf of Saddam far outweighs any “highly unimportant debate” that would decide whether the consequences of exposing that wrongdoing were worth exposing it in the first place.

“Good” means does that exposing justify the consequences. It’s not a clear yes or no, in Iraq I think we can confidently said it would’ve been “good” to let Saddam stay in power rather than get 2 million people killed and a subcontinent destabilized.



You misunderstood my point.  I was discussing whether the methods used to expose wrong doing were right or not, I didn't touch on whether actions taken as a result of discovering such wrong doing were right or not.

I'm saying that gaining the knowledge that "Saddam had committed atrocities, that his ruling party was largely corrupt and Saddam was funneling public money to keep his grip on power" was a good thing.  Actions taken as a result of such knowledge have nothing to do with gaining that knowledge.




You're putting the cart before the horse. Everybody knew Saddam was a dictator, but the extent of his corruption was not apparent until after the invasion of Iraq. No invasion, no knowledge of corruption. So, again, was knowing about government corruption in Iraq worth an invasion?

---

Otherwise, it's the same thing as with Russian bot accounts. You're focused on finding an account run by Russians, and the Russians are focused on finding Americans that spout convenient bullshit and getting them trending. Propaganda is not about lies anymore. It's not the 1950s. It's about who gets heard and who does not. What gets published, and what doesn't. It doesn't matter that RT has the most accurate news stories ever and never publishes false information. What matters is what they decide not to publish in the first place. Same with Assange.

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Offlinekoods
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Re: Humans of the Right Wing: AsCompendium [Re: Kryptos]
    #27394062 - 07/19/21 04:49 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

To be fair falcon isn’t really interested in exposing corruption in countries other than the US and maybe some European countries. He seems perfectly fine with corruption in Russia.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Humans of the Right Wing: AsCompendium [Re: koods]
    #27394267 - 07/19/21 07:22 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Russia is one big corruption, they're just centralizing.

Though, I'm pretty sure it's comparable in most places worldwide. It's just different levels of brazen depending on the location.

Even in the US, the corruption isn't the big issue, the fact that people are starting to pay attention is.

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Humans of the Right Wing: AsCompendium [Re: koods] * 1
    #27394299 - 07/19/21 07:47 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
To be fair falcon isn’t really interested in exposing corruption in countries other than the US and maybe some European countries. He seems perfectly fine with corruption in Russia.




I don’t think he’s fine with it, he’s just so devoted to pointing out hypocrisy that he’s ignoring it entirely.

Maybe I’m giving him too much credit, but it’s like when people say I only criticize the democrats; I gloss over a bunch of republicans criticisms because my audience here (for the most part) already acknowledges all that. I don’t think fal is interested in talking about corruption in Russia because nobody is on the other side of that issue here. Personally I don’t think there’s much point talking about it either. Russia is trying to influence our elections, ok so what we do that too, and we’re sanctioning/antagonizing them over it. Russia has oligarchs, we antagonize and sanction them for that too. I guess we could argue whether our methods against Russia are fruitful, but nobody with any power is on the “defend Russia” side, so it’s pointless to even argue, there’s no needle to be moved. US corruption, on the other hand, is a much more pressing issue for Americans like us, and one that needs addressing, let alone even acknowledged by some of the more politically savvy among us.

This discussion keeps going back to proportionality. How much of society’s energy should we spend saying Russia is bad, given the folks in power have already adopted that opinion and acted on it for decades? How much should we spend on our own problems, given they’re widely denied and actively obfuscated by those in power? That’s the important question, otherwise you’re just allowing the corporate media and their government handholders to dictate the terms of your political thought.


--------------------

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Re: Humans of the Right Wing: AsCompendium [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27394399 - 07/19/21 08:51 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Falcon once defended Russia bombing a hospital in Syria by saying that nobody was killed. You are giving him too much credit.

He considers an election held by Russia in the part of the Ukraine they had invaded less than two weeks earlier a legitimate exercise of democracy.

He holds Russia to a totally different standard


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

Edited by koods (07/19/21 08:56 PM)

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Humans of the Right Wing: AsCompendium [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27394459 - 07/19/21 09:53 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
The information being shared, and it’s validity, is not what’s in question. The consequences of that information being amplified above other information in an attempt to mold the narrative, that’s why people like Jeff Bezos buy a money pit like the Washington Post. The way the information is transmitted is far more important than the information itself. You know this, you saw how elegantly the discourse around Wikileaks went from “should the US be doing war crimes” to “Assange is a Putin ally, and rapist.”



I completely agree.  But do you have any evidence that Wikileaks was withholding significant information about Trump?  As I've said before, any dirt on Trump would be easy to get out - you wouldn't need to go through Wikileaks - you can just go to MSNBC.

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Choosing to not publish the RNC emails on the basis of “it was not (or less) interesting” isn’t a very good justification for an organization ostensibly dedicated to the liberation of information to withhold emails of the political machine propelling Trump to the most powerful office in the world. Now I’m not gonna sit here and act like Julian Assange made Hillary Clinton lose the election because she did that herself, but simply releasing the RNC leaks would’ve removed any doubt.



Fair enough, and I don't disagree, but you previously argued Wikileaks shouldn't be releasing people's dinner plans.  Are you changing your mind about that?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Humans of the Right Wing: AsCompendium [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27394464 - 07/19/21 09:58 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

koods said:
To be fair falcon isn’t really interested in exposing corruption in countries other than the US and maybe some European countries. He seems perfectly fine with corruption in Russia.




I don’t think he’s fine with it, he’s just so devoted to pointing out hypocrisy that he’s ignoring it entirely.



Thank you, you beat me to it.

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
it’s like when people say I only criticize the democrats; I gloss over a bunch of republicans criticisms because my audience here (for the most part) already acknowledges all that. I don’t think fal is interested in talking about corruption in Russia because nobody is on the other side of that issue here. Personally I don’t think there’s much point talking about it either. Russia is trying to influence our elections, ok so what we do that too, and we’re sanctioning/antagonizing them over it. Russia has oligarchs, we antagonize and sanction them for that too. I guess we could argue whether our methods against Russia are fruitful, but nobody with any power is on the “defend Russia” side, so it’s pointless to even argue, there’s no needle to be moved. US corruption, on the other hand, is a much more pressing issue for Americans like us, and one that needs addressing, let alone even acknowledged by some of the more politically savvy among us.



Exactly.

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
This discussion keeps going back to proportionality. How much of society’s energy should we spend saying Russia is bad, given the folks in power have already adopted that opinion and acted on it for decades? How much should we spend on our own problems, given they’re widely denied and actively obfuscated by those in power? That’s the important question, otherwise you’re just allowing the corporate media and their government handholders to dictate the terms of your political thought.



:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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