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 Joshua
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Registered: 10/27/98
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 Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss  [Re: Blue Helix]
#2520511 - 04/03/04 12:16 AM (20 years, 18 days ago) |
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Excellent work!!
I will have to reconsider other types of casing mixes.
Thank you.
Joshua
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 ragadinks
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 Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Blue Helix]
#2520773 - 04/03/04 04:03 AM (20 years, 18 days ago) |
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RogerRabbit
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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Blue Helix]
#2521776 - 04/03/04 02:39 PM (20 years, 18 days ago) |
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I've been following this thread with great interest. For quite some time now, I've been including coir in my substrate mixes. I believe it's better suited as a substrate than as a casing material. Most importantly however, the problem is the cost. Compared to manure, compost, straw, etc., coir is very expensive. Coir is not suited to be a casing material unless mixed(diluted) with verm, as was done in Blue's experiments. In my opinion as well, peat is a better casing material, and it's what I've switched back to. Another point is not to sterilize peat or coir in a pressure cooker. Part of what helps initiate pinning is bacteria in the casing layer. If you sterilize it, you lose this feature. Best to pasteurize only. One more point. My research has shown that it is not only unnecessary, but counterproductive to 'incubate' the casing layer. If you case when the substrate is 90% or so covered with mycelium, the myc is growing rapidly and will infiltrate the casing even if you expose to fruiting conditions immediately after applying the casing layer. I've found that if I apply casing, then leave uncovered and exposed to light(which I do from day one, by the way) overlay is never a problem, but the myc colonizes enough of the lower casing to be able to transfer moisture into the substrate. This also leaves a bit of uncolonized casing material to provide all those little 'humid micro-environments' to stimulate pinning. I actually get pissed off when the myc pokes through the casing, even a little bit.
Very nice experiments. Thanks for sharing.
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Blue Helix
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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: RogerRabbit]
#2521838 - 04/03/04 03:02 PM (20 years, 18 days ago) |
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RogerRabbit, I agree with most of your observations, but I have to differ in incubation of casing. I observed that incubation of small grain trays, say less than 1 cubic foot of surface area and a couple inches deep, is a very good thing. If one doesn't incubate those small trays, they can take too long to colonize and will not colonize as evenly or completely. However, I found that incubation of bulk substrate trays, like this one, is absolutely not required in that additional heat does not need to be provided. Additional heat will probably raise the core temperature to undesirable levels. I actually had to fan the underside of this tray to keep it from getting to hot during the substrate run and even the casing run! In any case, though, I don't agree one should introduce the tray to fruiting conditions until the casing is colonized at least half way, active or passive incubation heat.
As far as casing being sterilized or pasteurized, I don't think it makes much difference. All the bacteria killed are, in my opinion, quickly replenished by small amounts on the substrate itself. I've done both sterilization and pasteurization, and I didn't notice any difference in yield or pin set. The only time I had a problem is when I didn't do either; I got green mold in that tray after the first flush, starting from a small piece of wood in the peat moss.
By the way, I have pictures of the peat side fruiting like crazy taken today, but I'll have to wait until this evening to post them because I've maxed out my daily upload limit.
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RogerRabbit
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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Blue Helix]
#2522405 - 04/03/04 05:39 PM (20 years, 17 days ago) |
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Agreed. I never case straight grain, as it's a waste of good grain. I always do as you did, spawning into a bulk substrate. My pinsets have been better after pasteurization, as opposed to sterilized casing material. Just an observation. It's good to see folks experimenting. So many seem to think the first thing they try is the 'only' way to do things. Keep up the good work!
Oh, it just occured to me that I might have made it seem that I don't incubate bulk substrate trays. I do. What I was saying above is that I don't incubate 'again' after the casing layer goes on. I prefer the casing to not colonize completely.
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"I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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Blue Helix
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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: RogerRabbit]
#2522616 - 04/03/04 06:42 PM (20 years, 17 days ago) |
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When you say incubate, RogerRabbit, do you add heat to those trays? I found with this last 3.5 sq.ft. tray that the substrate generated too much heat during incubation even in a room that was generally about 74F, so I used a temperature-controlled PC fan at the bottom of the tray keyed off a temperature probe inserted into the bed core core to keep the core from overheating. Before I started using the fan, the core temperature was soaring to the low 90s in a room that was 20F cooler!
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Blue Helix
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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Blue Helix]
#2523125 - 04/03/04 09:17 PM (20 years, 17 days ago) |
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Here are those pictures of the tray fruiting. This is the peat-vermiculite casing side. The casing is the basic 50/50 formula with crushed coral rather than oyster shell, calcium carbonate flour (as used in wine making), peat moss, and vermiculite. It was sterilized but pasteurization seems to work just as well if not better.
 
Edited by Blue Helix (04/03/04 09:18 PM)
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RogerRabbit
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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Blue Helix]
#2523281 - 04/03/04 10:20 PM (20 years, 17 days ago) |
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Awesome flush..geezus!
Was the peat/verm side better than the coir/verm?
When I 'incubate' it's at room temperature. The myc, as you discovered, makes its own heat.
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Download Let's Grow Mushrooms
semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat
"I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison
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Blue Helix
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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: RogerRabbit]
#2523311 - 04/03/04 10:38 PM (20 years, 17 days ago) |
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This is my first and last try using coir. I don't like the way it colonizes like a substrate and overlays in the fruiting chamber. I lightly scratched and patched the coir side, but it is already starting to overlay again. I do have pins now, but the set isn't great. It looks like it will overlay by the next flush, so I just might let it do that and fruit it like a big substrate block. I will not use coir again for casing cubes.
This tray is a pretty typical heavy flush when things go right. Heavy first flushes are to be expected when the casing colonizes under the surface evenly before the fruiting conditions are introduced. I like to give the casing a light scratch toward the end of the casing colonization period then allow 24 to 48 more hours before initiating fruiting. That little mixup of casing mycellium at the very end helps even the flush out and gives me a better pin set--that's my only "secret" but it's really just a recommendation from Stamets in TMC.
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Blue Helix
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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Blue Helix]
#2530072 - 04/06/04 12:26 AM (20 years, 15 days ago) |
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UPDATE
The coir side did suffer from the scratching. I would say it produced about 1/2 or less of the mushrooms of the peat moss side (not a bad flush, just not that good). However, after the first flush, the mycellium finally stopped colonizing the coir patching. I guess the whole bed finally got the message "It's time to fruit, so stop wasting energy on vegative growth." I suppose if one can make it to the first flush using a coir-based casing without it overlaying, you'll be good to go for the rest of the fruiting.
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scatmanrav
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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Blue Helix]
#4000117 - 04/01/05 12:03 PM (19 years, 20 days ago) |
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Wheres the coir side pics of it mature? 
Interesting stuff. I've always had great success with coir..you just really need to know how to baby it, when to iniate and all that. But then again, you can also have better then great success. I have already picked up some peat moss (wasnt really around during the winter) and begun a few experiments with the casing. I like it...I also liked throwing in a bit of coir..about 15-20% give or take. I'd like to try a thin layer of just coir over the top of the substrate, say 1/4 inch or so, then peat/verm (1/2 inch or so) on top of that. I dont really know why...I just have the urge to try it.
Well anyway, informative as usual and all that
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Blue Helix
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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: scatmanrav]
#4000236 - 04/01/05 12:27 PM (19 years, 20 days ago) |
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Hi, scatmanrav. I never got around to posting a picture of the coir side fruiting. It wasn't too bad, but it wasn't great either. The end yield was about 50% of the peat moss side. The tray eventually went green mold because this was back when I used to run 100% RH most of the time, and I got mold almost every time by the third flush.
My current tray setup, after the green bomb I created by mixing peat moss in uncolonized horse manure in that other thread, is going to be modeled after this tray. What I mean by that is that this tray happened to be incubated during a hot spell, which ensured the bed didn't get too cold during casing incubation. To get that same effect in the new tray I'm going to be running a tub-in-tub setup so I can zero in on the exact temperature I want during casing incubation. The reflective bubble wrap will be used over the outer tub too to ensure even heat. Hopefully that will fix my casing running problem. The other thing I will be doing differently in this new tray compared to the one in this thread is running at 95% RH rather than 100%.
I am also considering mixing in a bit of coir (about 15%) in the casing mix just for kicks. I figure at that level overlay shouldn't be a problem, but I might benefit from some of that great texture that coir has over peat. I don't know. I am on the fence over it, but I have a couple weeks to think about it.
Edited by Blue Helix (04/01/05 12:33 PM)
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agar
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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Blue Helix]
#4000984 - 04/01/05 02:33 PM (19 years, 20 days ago) |
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I gather from all this that, something on the order of a PH adjusted 45% verm, 45% peat & 10% coir (or - something close to that range) casing mixture might be ideal.
Adding a small amount of coir is somewhat like CAC'ing a peat casing, as is done in some commercial cultivation referanced below.
PENN STATE REFERANCE
CAC or CI
Fully colonized spawn run substrate is used to introduce mycelia into the casing layer. This is often used to improve crop uniformity, crop cycling, mushroom quality, and yields. Spawn run compost at casing (CAC) is used to inoculate the casing during the mixing or application of the casing.
CAC is now produced much like spawn?in aseptic conditions?by those who produce and supply spawn to growers. This process is called casing inoculum (CI).
By adding the mycelia uniformly throughout the casing, the spawn growth into the casing is quicker and more even. The time from casing to harvest is reduced by 5?7 days so that the rooms can be cycled faster or more breaks can be harvested in the same time.
Mycelial growth is uniform on the surface, which encourages the mushrooms to form on the surface as well. Therefore, they are cleaner. Yields are improved since the mushroom growth is uniform and crop management is easier. In addition, more mushrooms are produced from areas that may have less nutrition.
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hyphae
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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: agar]
#4001592 - 04/01/05 04:49 PM (19 years, 20 days ago) |
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I'm a peat based man through and through and haven't read this thread yet for some reason? Anyway I'll read through it and see if it sways my thinking at all. I hope it will at least reinforce my love love for the peat microclimate which IME is superior. It looks like an excellent presentation from a quick skim over and should make for an interesting read! TY
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Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy.
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MrMaddHatter
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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: hyphae]
#4010390 - 04/03/05 09:19 PM (19 years, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
hyphae said:
I'm a peat based man through and through and haven't read this thread yet for some reason? Anyway I'll read through it and see if it sways my thinking at all. I hope it will at least reinforce my love love for the peat microclimate which IME is superior. It looks like an excellent presentation from a quick skim over and should make for an interesting read! TY
Hey thats what I was going to post!  
I worked with a 50/50 coir/verm mix for couple of years, then finally switched over to peat/verm/dash of lime, and I have to say the peat blows coir away as far as texture, and moisture retention (what I mean is, holds water for longer period of time, not holds more water).
Also something about the blackness of peat based casings with all those white threads shooting up is just beautiful.
Coir does work great for a casing mix, I never had a bad flush with it.
But I've had my best flushes with peat 
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scatmanrav
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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: MrMaddHatter]
#4012703 - 04/04/05 01:03 PM (19 years, 17 days ago) |
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I'm a believer in the peat moss...got my first pins on peat moss casing..got lots of peat based and coir casings to see the difference. From now on..peat will be the basis of my casing mix..though there may be a bit of coir mixed in..
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agar
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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: scatmanrav]
#4012942 - 04/04/05 02:24 PM (19 years, 17 days ago) |
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Yup....with a touch of coir..... I agree.
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Juan_del_Pueblo
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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: agar]
#4012999 - 04/04/05 02:42 PM (19 years, 17 days ago) |
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For all the freaky peats:
Aren't there different types of peat moss. The PH levels will be different depending on where you live. How can I find out what's the best PH level? What amount of water is used for the moss? Also what amount of time should I use in the mike for sterilization?
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agar
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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Juan_del_Pueblo]
#4013077 - 04/04/05 03:11 PM (19 years, 17 days ago) |
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You need a pH test probe to deterine pH of any peat, as it comes from differing sources (worldwide), all with differing pH. ph probes can be had under $20 at garden supply stores.
The preferred pH range of a casing mixture is 6.5 to 8. 7.5 is optimal.
Hydrate mix to feild capacity (70/75%) before nuking.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Something I wrote in another life.
"pH", is a measure to describe the acidity of a medium.
pH 7 is neutral; higher means alkaline, lower acidic.
Peat is a major constituent of preferred casing mixes. The pH of peat is variable, dependent on the source it came from. Meaning, the pH of peat differs from various sources. The preferred pH range of a casing mixture is 6.5 to 8. 7.5 is optimal.
Peat is acidic. Consequently, to achieve an optimal pH range of a casing mix, the pH of the casing mixture must be adjusted accordingly (within the range of 6.5 to 8).
The pH of the casing must be within certain limits to support strong mycelial growth. An overly acidic or alkaline casing mixture will depress mycelial growth and supports unwanted competitors.
It is generally easier to make casing materials more alkaline (i.e., increasing the pH) than it is to make them more acid (i.e., reducing the pH).
A movement of 0.5 is easy but, because the pH scale is logarithmic, a movement on the order of, 2.0 points becomes more difficult because there is a factor of 10x between each full point, so pH 5.0 is actually 100 times more acid than pH 7.0.
There are several common types of lime available for use, though care should be exercised with all of the products. Lime is caustic and a skin and eye irritant and can be dangerous if misused. If you choose to use such products, carefully read and follow all manufacturer directions exactly. The major types of lime products include:
Hydrated Lime: fast acting, but not long lasting. It is very effective to produce a fast change in pH level. It is also the "strongest" form of lime generally available, and you must follow all manufacturer precautions, since your skin and eyes can be easily irritated or burned if the product is misused.
Ground Limestone: a naturally occurring type of limestone that has been ground to a fine powder. How quickly it will act to modify pH and how long it will persist depends on how finely it was ground.
Generally, ground limestone is weaker than hydrated lime, needing about 30% more to raise the pH by the same amount. It has the advantage, however, of usually being significantly cheaper than the hydrated lime, and usually works more slowly and lasts much longer.
Mixed Lime: usually sold under a brand name. Most brands contain a variety of particle sizes to provide some immediate benefits, as well as a longer persistence. (this is often referred to as "time released" lime).
pH gradually falls to less than optimal by the end of cropping due to acids secreted by the mushroom mycelium. Consequently, a long lasting buffering agent is preferable.
If you wish to achieve optimal results when adjusting pH, it is highly advisable to use litmus strips (with color chart), or acquire a pH test probe (available at most garden supply stores, under $20) to accurately test, and adjust the pH of your casing mix, prior to application.
Doing all other cultivation steps properly, then applying a casing mixture outside the proper pH range, most often creates poor cropping results.
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RogerRabbit
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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: agar]
#4016398 - 04/05/05 09:05 AM (19 years, 16 days ago) |
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Has anybody tried CAC'ing with cubies? My guess is it would lead to overlay, which happens far too often even without CAC.
I'm also a believer in peat/verm casings. I tried coir when everybody else was raving about it, but coir works far better in the substrate than in casings.
RR
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Download Let's Grow Mushrooms
semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat
"I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison
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