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InvisibleHumble Newcomer
Diddler de niños
I'm a teapot


Registered: 03/12/17
Posts: 1,483
Cars with engines that shut off at stops
    #25190979 - 05/08/18 07:32 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

I've learned many of the readers here are auto minded and many others may not be but may own one

BMW has been a large love for the majority of my life but when they started adding turbochargers instead of harvesting their hp with pure genius I started to lose my love. About that same time my friend got a new 5 series loaner while her BMW was in the shop and we drove that rental to Florida from Texas to go scuba diving on the cheap LOL

It was a start stop engine model and it was my first and to this date only time driving one.

As a mechanic I have spent way more time than healthy thinking about how these systems work, how many systems need to be in place to prevent problems like the inside getting hot because the AC compressor isn't spinning anymore or what if u need to make an emergency manuever and need power steering or how heavy is this load on the electrical system does the alternator run enough to recharge.

I didn't even consider the other multiple downsides associated with this technology that this guy brings up. Some of it we can overcome with future technology. Some of it is arguably not as bad as it may seem.

But I found this both entertaining and thought provoking



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How I made my mush GH

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Invisibleds442
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Posts: 374
Re: Cars with engines that shut off at stops [Re: Humble Newcomer]
    #25191570 - 05/08/18 01:24 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

I had a Ford Escape rental that had that. Hated it. There is a pause after you hit the gas before it starts moving. It doesn't really save much fuel anyway unless you are sitting in a major traffic jam.

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InvisibleHumble Newcomer
Diddler de niños
I'm a teapot


Registered: 03/12/17
Posts: 1,483
Re: Cars with engines that shut off at stops [Re: ds442]
    #25191707 - 05/08/18 02:57 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

That's what i was reading, main things I take away from this is 1) it's done so the manufacturers epa mileage numbers counts half the time as engine being shut off which skews the numbers, letting them claim higher mpg while real world ownership sees no appreciable gain, and 2) because of the extra cost and parts involved, many owners aren't even recouping the cost of the system much less any fuel savings. There are more parts to fail now with no savings.

I only drove it for a weekend and didn't like it.

Enjoyed the video tho


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How I made my mush GH

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OfflineKyshroomer19xx
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Registered: 04/22/17
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Re: Cars with engines that shut off at stops [Re: Humble Newcomer]
    #25191731 - 05/08/18 03:06 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

My car has that and i found that if if stop but dont push completely down on the peddle the car doesnt shut off i can drive it for ever without ever having the engine shut off but i still dont care for it


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RIP tom petty

Of course it is happening inside your head, but why on earth should that mean it is not real?
Albus  Dumbledore

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InvisibleHumble Newcomer
Diddler de niños
I'm a teapot


Registered: 03/12/17
Posts: 1,483
Re: Cars with engines that shut off at stops [Re: Kyshroomer19xx]
    #25191744 - 05/08/18 03:11 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

What make?

In the video he mentioned on mazda u could adjust the settings but not quite shut the system off all the way.

I'm wondering how different the system is across manufacturers, I didn't notice any ability to feather the pedal but I wasn't an owner and didn't read the manual either.


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How I made my mush GH

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OfflineKyshroomer19xx
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Re: Cars with engines that shut off at stops [Re: Humble Newcomer]
    #25191755 - 05/08/18 03:17 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Its a 2015 malibu i tried to research all i could about shutting it off when i bought it i didnt realize it was like that till after we bought it but i found out you can't shut it off but i learned after driving it that theres a sweet spot in the pedal were it doesnt shut off


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RIP tom petty

Of course it is happening inside your head, but why on earth should that mean it is not real?
Albus  Dumbledore

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InvisibleHumble Newcomer
Diddler de niños
I'm a teapot


Registered: 03/12/17
Posts: 1,483
Re: Cars with engines that shut off at stops [Re: Kyshroomer19xx]
    #25191813 - 05/08/18 03:47 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

GM. Good to know. I think I'd be happy with that.

I lived in Houston for many years and would commute one hour in morning ninety minutes in afternoon.

In those traffic jams it may add up, and having a way I can control it the other times would probably make me happy


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How I made my mush GH

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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,697
Re: Cars with engines that shut off at stops [Re: Kyshroomer19xx]
    #25191814 - 05/08/18 03:47 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

While I'm not too pessimistic about the impact on the reliability of the car, I do agree that it doesn't help much and that it just makes the car slightly more complex. It has little benefit overall and I have always regarded it as mostly a marketing gimmick with little real-world significance.

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OfflineKyshroomer19xx
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Re: Cars with engines that shut off at stops [Re: koraks]
    #25191828 - 05/08/18 03:53 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

I can tell you it has no real world significance at all i would much rather not have it but what i will say is that there really is no lag from stop to start again my wife and i recently were at a complete stop waiting in a line of traffic the engine was shut off and we almost got rearended but my wife hit the gas and veered off the road. So people who say that they lag from stop to start as for my car i havent seen that


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RIP tom petty

Of course it is happening inside your head, but why on earth should that mean it is not real?
Albus  Dumbledore

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InvisibleHumble Newcomer
Diddler de niños
I'm a teapot


Registered: 03/12/17
Posts: 1,483
Re: Cars with engines that shut off at stops [Re: koraks]
    #25191839 - 05/08/18 03:58 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

I'll admit, I initially thought it would be harder on the engines. But these manufacturers are keeping their factory warranties so u know there was careful consideration beforehand.

Most of engine wear happens at start up because nothing's expanded or the correct shape yet as he pointed out but also because over time after u shut an engine down the weight of the Piston rod assembly pushes down on the rod journals of the crankshaft and actually displace the oil film that was separating the bearing from he crank journal. This also happens with the crankshaft settling down on to the main bearings, then on your cold start in the morning there is micro wear as the crank starts spinning until oil pressure is back up and the oil literally picks up the entire rotating assembly and centers it in the bore.

But, with warm free flowing oil, and no doubt a check valve added in somewhere to keep oil on top the heads, I bet there's basically no long term difference.


---
Wow, she was able to floor it and have the engine fire off and move the car forward that fast? Makes sense though, again, they have to CYA before they release anything and the potential lawsuits on a new technology from people being sitting ducks, u know they spent a lot of time getting all that straight.

A little off topic, did y'all hear about the person driving tesla model S in autopilot mode and it rear ended another car horribly and instantly killed the driver? I forget details but the stink was that autopilot was engaged, so it should have detected the car and clearly the technology is not safe yet. Big potentially criping stink.

I think they're not legally liable bc the whole you're not supposed to take hands off wheel or rely on it whatsoever but still a blight on their shiny appeal


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How I made my mush GH

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InvisibleHumble Newcomer
Diddler de niños
I'm a teapot


Registered: 03/12/17
Posts: 1,483
Re: Cars with engines that shut off at stops [Re: Humble Newcomer]
    #25191848 - 05/08/18 04:01 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah i butchered the details but here, it's actually more horrific I think.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.nydailynews.com/news/national/tesla-crashed-suv-autopilot-fatal-wreck-article-1.3906556%3foutputType=amp

Lol I literally got every detail wrong but I remember he was a 30 something software engineer for apple


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How I made my mush GH

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Invisibleds442
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Re: Cars with engines that shut off at stops [Re: Humble Newcomer]
    #25193119 - 05/09/18 08:47 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

I had a 08 Pontiac G8 GT. It had the active fuel management where it would run on 4 cylinders while cruising. I put a supercharger on it and was making over 500 HP and would get 31 mpg hwy. That's pretty good. It has collapsible lifters that fill up with oil. They held up good with all that power but I didn't have it very long before I sold it. If one went out I was going to change them for regular ones and put a cam in it.

Direct injection is also good for fuel economy. Injecting the fuel directly into the cylinder means cooler fuel resulting in more power. It is also atomized better so it burns more efficiently.

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InvisibleLIBERTYNY
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Registered: 04/07/16
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Re: Cars with engines that shut off at stops [Re: ds442]
    #25194307 - 05/09/18 08:42 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Its all about goberment mandated fuel mandates (CAFE) and safety to some extent.

Im no mechanic but modern vehicles SUCK becouse of all this unnecessary BS.

Direct fuel injection, Turbos instead of a normal size engine, Air bags galore (expensive and UnSafe),  Wifi, Gps, Rfid, Computers . . . No thanks only if you want a modern vehicle you really have no choice.


Rxor very little goberment mandated BS 15k (The jeep version starts around 30k) ---https://jalopnik.com/the-mahindra-roxor-is-a-tiny-offroad-jeep-to-conquer-am-1823460351

OP check out Erik Petersons Auto's (EPA lol) I think you will like their style  ---  http://ericpetersautos.com/

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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Cars with engines that shut off at stops [Re: Humble Newcomer]
    #25195127 - 05/10/18 09:31 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

I know at least on the new VWs/Audis with Start/Stop technology, you can code it off with VCDS


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InvisibleHumble Newcomer
Diddler de niños
I'm a teapot


Registered: 03/12/17
Posts: 1,483
Re: Cars with engines that shut off at stops [Re: Shroomism]
    #25195158 - 05/10/18 09:49 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

I definitely wish I had more confidence tackling electrical issues with all the new CAN networks and fiber optic networks and gateway modules that communicate between networks

That's a big part of having an older car and fixing it up, is the fun and ease of working on older technologies. 70's carbureted engines come to mind.

But for me I'm ok with the progression of things because we are living the necessary in between I think, between before when everything was loud and big and mechanical and inefficient but gas was cheap and horsepower sounds badass so no one cared, and the future where the driver can sleep your entire trip bc of reliable autopilot and auto traffic systems, which would be faster than today's commute FYI, off renewable storable energy sources or perhaps mini nuclear (doubt it) or perhaps some new gravity manipulation technology.

Or teleportation.

I'll just teleport and my motorcycle for the leisure rides.


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How I made my mush GH

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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,697
Re: Cars with engines that shut off at stops [Re: LIBERTYNY]
    #25196960 - 05/11/18 04:24 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

LIBERTYNY said:
Air bags galore (expensive and UnSafe)



US 1990-2000:
Deaths due to airbags: 175
Lives saved due to airbags: 6377

You'll be arguing that seatbelts are an unsafe addition next :wink:

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InvisibleHumble Newcomer
Diddler de niños
I'm a teapot


Registered: 03/12/17
Posts: 1,483
Re: Cars with engines that shut off at stops [Re: koraks]
    #25198501 - 05/11/18 09:17 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Airbags started being two stage around 2000 as well, "advanced airbags" can operate in three modes, for example the occupancy sensor in the passenger seat tells the computer 0-59 pounds in the seat which in an accident will not deploy passenger airbag (bc seat is either empty or has small child) 60-100 pounds stage 1 deployment which is a lower power charge that deploys airbag or 101+ pounds which is stage three deploying at full force.

Also the severity of the crash, determined by how many crash sensors have gone off and also vehicle speed input are factored in, and if bad enough the airbags may deploy anyway in an attempt to save lives.

Even the seat belt tensioners have pyrotechnic devices and they fire off tensioning your seat belt the second the airbag deploys to minimize occupants movement.

Fascinating technology. Everyone has a story where something didn't go right and if the new technology wasn't in place things would have been better, but in the broad picture we are far safer and any mistakes made were corrected and improved on the next designs
Just how things progress


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How I made my mush GH

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InvisibleLIBERTYNY
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Re: Cars with engines that shut off at stops [Re: koraks]
    #25198545 - 05/11/18 09:51 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

koraks said:
Quote:

LIBERTYNY said:
Air bags galore (expensive and UnSafe)



US 1990-2000:
Deaths due to airbags: 175
Lives saved due to airbags: 6377

You'll be arguing that seatbelts are an unsafe addition next :wink:




Deaths . . .  look into injury's

Statistics suck, most are designed to deceive,  Most everyone I know that has be in a vehicle with a airbag pop winds up with some sort of injury.
  Google  'Takata Corp'  these things should have never ben installed, yet it's 'not legal' to remove or disable them despite the dangers, yet their still mandated.

  the average airbag and related equipment costs 1,500 - 2,000$ each and most 4 seaters have 6 or more, Thats 12K mandated on to the price of every 4 seater. the add on all the other mandated garbage (like seatbelts).
  I would not care if this were not mandatory, but it is

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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,697
Re: Cars with engines that shut off at stops [Re: LIBERTYNY]
    #25198844 - 05/12/18 03:47 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Provide some statistics of injuries and prevented injuries then, as well as severity of injuries, showing a comparison between airbag and non-airbag deployed crash situations.

As to the cost breakdown, it's ludicrous. You seem to rely on replacement costs, while installation costs of airbags are in the range of 2-5% of total vehicle price, not in the range of 35-60% as you indicate.

Even a toddler without any insight in the automotive industry would blow massive holes in  your inane argument. It's a well established fact that the plethora of active and passive safety systems added to cars over the decades have dramatically increased the safety of road traffic in all respects.

Edited by koraks (05/12/18 03:51 AM)

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InvisibleHumble Newcomer
Diddler de niños
I'm a teapot


Registered: 03/12/17
Posts: 1,483
Re: Cars with engines that shut off at stops [Re: koraks]
    #25198951 - 05/12/18 06:44 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

:popcorn:

I just learned -

Takata had a recall during the 80s Asian automotive invasion on seatbelts, called by US national highway safety board the second largest recall in US at that time, 8.5 million Honda's Subarus daihatsu, etc had faulty seat belts made of abs plastic, after a while ultraviolet light made it brittle and break and seat belts would fail during accidents.

Honda actually got fined 50k as well because authorities believe they knew for 5years and said nothing.

Now they make 20% of airbags in today's cars, the inflator devices made in their Mexican plant had "improperly stored chemicals" and faulty pyrotechnic devices,
In may 2013 a recall of 3.6 million vehicles started but due to Takatas poor record keeping it was impossible to determine all affected models so that prompted a second recall in June 2013 and then in June 2014, BMW and 9 other automakers announced they were recalling 3 million additional cars due to Takatas parts, and now as of may 2015 it's the largest recall in history and it's still ongoing I guess.

40 million recalled units because apparently they send shrapnel flying through the car, a Malaysian woman had a wreck at 30/kmh which is like 22mph probably, would have been just fine with no airbags but it deployed which should have been ok but when it did it sent a piece of shrapnel through her neck killing her. And her baby was delivered post mortem and died a few days later, I think that was a big nail in their coffin.


I didn't even know.

But how is it illegal to remove Takatas airbags? There's a massive recall.

Oh, you mean remove airbags period.

...is that illegal? I don't think it is. Ive known people who couldn't afford replacement after deployment and just didn't replace the steering wheel airbag. I don't recall ever being Instructed to fail a vehicle on state inspection for a deployed or missing airbag either. I could be wrong.

I'll fail you for a busted windshield but i won't fail a vehicle with no windshield at all. The law cares only about sight obstructions, not if you get hit by bugs while driving.


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How I made my mush GH

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