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 Psilosopherr
A psilly goose
 
Registered: 02/15/12
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Last seen: 28 days, 15 hours
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 Re: Shroomery Car Talk  [Re: ds442]
#25115671 - 04/05/18 11:16 AM (6 years, 12 days ago) |
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I had seen a video in my youtubing that claimed tie rods were bad if they wiggled a certain way, so I jumped right on it since that had been my assumption from the get go. Now after buying a second set of tie rods from a different store (also didn't fit, the two they gave me, same brand, were not even the same size as eachother  ) I finally try to corroborate this video and find that my tie rods were not in need of replacement  like you've been trying to get through my thick head from the start.  Nice learning experience at least.
So now I'm just reassembling, still struggling to loosen this godforsaken rounded nut. Considering buying one of those 'go2' sockets since it oughtta come in handy in the future. Gonna try heating it red hot next time and see if that helps
tested my radiator fan more and it seems my coolant temp sensor needs replacing
Quote:
ds442 said:
I havent read this whole thread but the slow starting could possibly be your fuel pump. It may not be pumping that strong so it takes a while to build up fuel pressure. You would need a fuel pressure gauge. Hook it up to the valve and turn the key to the on position and check the fuel pressure. If its low that is your problem. Check on a forum about what the proper fuel pressure should be. Fuel pumps are pretty expensive to get replaced because you have to drop the fuel tank and are difficult to do yourself. I had one go out on a 87 camaro. I just cut through the hump in the back over the tank and replaced it that way. The easy way.
This is the diagnosis I've settled on for now too. My pump is only supposed to produce 2.4 psi so I was wondering if I could just put a baloon on there to test it. I cannot hear the pump engage when I turn the car on which I've been told is a good indicator that its failing. Luckily my car has a little access panel in the trunk for replacing the pump, but it does say it may be necessary to lower the fuel tank to get it out...fingers crossed
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 ds442
Stranger
Registered: 04/02/18
Posts: 374
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Only 2.4 psi. All my cars have been 20 to 30 psi. Im not familiar with foreign cars.
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose
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Last seen: 28 days, 15 hours
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Re: Shroomery Car Talk [Re: ds442]
#25115684 - 04/05/18 11:25 AM (6 years, 12 days ago) |
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I was assuming the low pressure was due to it being non-fuel injected
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ds442
Stranger
Registered: 04/02/18
Posts: 374
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Oh its not fuel injected I didnt even bother to look at the year. I have never really done anything with fuel systems in carburated cars. I have never adjusted a carb. I have had a couple but never had to work on them.
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ds442
Stranger
Registered: 04/02/18
Posts: 374
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Did you change the trans fluid yet? Its risky to change it on a high mileage car. Sometimes when you do the trans will go out. It happened to me on a truck I bought. I took my car in to get the oil changed at mobil. I asked him how much it was. Then I said I wasnt sure if I wanted to do it because of that reason and he said I wouldnt. You might want to look into that. Ive seen people with newer cars get their trans flushed and the same thing happens. I changed it on my Camaro and that had 200,000 miles on it and had no problems.
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Humble Newcomer
Diddler de niños
Registered: 03/12/17
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Re: Shroomery Car Talk [Re: ds442]
#25122014 - 04/07/18 09:59 PM (6 years, 10 days ago) |
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I dont remember anything about trouble starting after you replaced your battery. I'd need some details, what u notice
Do you know if you have an electric fuel pump philosopher? I'd assume yes, but if you have a carburetor you may have a mechanical fuel pump, I'm not familiar with older Honda's. 2.4 psi sounds low but if I remember right even small block Chevy's were 8-15 psi range on the ones that ran off the camshaft. And that's to feed a carburetor probably more than double the size of yours, a V8 that was used to haul and tow. Maybe 2.5 is enough to keep the bowl full on a small car engine, can't remmeber if u have four or six cyl.
And if you have a gut feeling always chase it out (tie rods), I'm not there and miscommunications are easy in straight text.
If they wiggle there is reason for concern. You can flop it side to side by your hand? How much effort does it take? Is the cotter pin still intact, everything seems tight and correct?
Small pipe wrench is your best friend sounds like with that rounded nut. The more a pipe wrench turns on something the tighter it grips and they have 6" long ones I use all the time for situations like yours. Heat works a lot of times but usually when I can get a good grip on something but it's crazy tight, maybe galled threads or something.
Vise grips, basin wrench or pipe wrench, if it resembles a hex still at all u can drive smaller size socket or box end wrench on it, there are extractor sets that you can drive on there and then use a wrench on the extractor to remove it and the nut, then u break it out on the bench.
If have heat but no fancy tools maybe heat the outside threads not the bolt itself, you would freeze the bolt with refrigerant if u had access to it, but expand the outer threads with heat and or contract inner threads (bolt) with cold and then work it back and forth as u work it out. Hard to say what without seeing what you're seeing but there's some ideas.
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose
Registered: 02/15/12
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Last seen: 28 days, 15 hours
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Mine acts much like the one in this video. The inner tie rod will twist, not sure if thats normal, and the end will twist with it. Is the inner tie rod supposed to twist/rotate like this?
Then the part that goes through the wheel hub, the part you put a nut/cotter pin on will also wiggle back and forth. The new ones I have do not do this so I'm assuming it needs replacing.
I'm hesitant to order any more tie rod ends offline for fear they won't fit either but I guess thats my only option.
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose
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Last seen: 28 days, 15 hours
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alright, watched a couple more videos, going to take a final diagnostic look tomorrow before ordering the parts.
As I understand, a part marked OEM should be identical to the original parts? Thats what I'll order.
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Humble Newcomer
Diddler de niños
Registered: 03/12/17
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Generally speaking, no, none of the steering components should rotate like that.
My buddy just bought an 08 Nissan rogue had a blown inner CV joint on the drive axle and bad ball joints and a few other things and we had the same discussion on his stabilizer links, those tiny little rods that attach vertically from the frame somewhere to your steering knuckle. I didn't think it was a big deal how little it moved by hand because nothing showed up with my prybar as I tested various areas but when he pulled it anyway it flopped worse and the new one was stiff.
Much like a new ball joint or new tie rod end, they're going to move by hand if you try hard enough but they're very very stiff.
I've never used that as a diagnostic method, condemning a part based on does it rotate a bit, because if it gets bad enough the slop shows in other proven methods like a dry park check and being underneath feeling while a helper rotates the wheel. Then I, as the mechanic, have full confidence and can go tell even the rudest customer that yes in fact you need this repair for sure. I wouldn't have that confidence in a shop environment based on that flop alone.
However if it was my own car and I had a bad feeling about it, which I very well might if I saw your car, I could get the correct parts for cheap, which are this point for u I would email rock auto your car Vin and situation and they'll send u the right one they don't take phone calls, then yes I would do it for $30 or less. Again on my f150 they're $5 each but on my buddy's rogue they're like 15 each even at Rock Auto depends on how many werr made and how much each unit costs to make.
Oem - original equipment manufacturer. Basically that means your buying from the same company that produced the orifinal parts for the car. It's never a bad thing. It's not always worth paying extra for there are lots of quality parts manufacturers out there and even a few cheap ones that never fit right but a little sanding here and drill a new hole there and save $40.
I highly recommend you open dialogue with rock auto and if they have sent wrong parts to u by a mistake of their catalog they will refund u it happened to me on a heater blend door actuator. Their system said it fit the vehicle the systems catalog was wrong.
Get credit plus get them to send u right part I dont play around that stuff makes me mad I had ordered a whole front end from them one time both lower control arms both uppers, all four tie rod ends, pitman arm, idler arm, I jacked it up and busted everything off, put everything together when I realized one of the tie rod ends was threaded wrong it was regular thread instead of LH thread and it was dark I had to crawl out all filthy and went to call them and learned it's all email and that were closed and had to ride the motorcycle to O'Reilly and pay $25 for a $5 part.
You better believe I wrote a flaming email that night while sweat poured down my greasy forehead, they say you're supposed to write that stuff out and then delete it for the therapeautic value, eff that, I clicked send in a hurry. Some teenager was probably stoned listening to his mp3 player and put the wrong part in the wrong box not caring but a week later someone opens that box and it costs them hours and a ton of effort.
Ugh. I triple check everything from them now but they honor payments
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose
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Last seen: 28 days, 15 hours
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finally tried to start up the 87 mazda I'd replaced the timing belt on a while back.
Hasn't been run for a few years now. Tried to start it while a friend slowly poured gas in the carb. Sounded like it was close to starting a couple times.
But then it'd stop cranking and start making a whirring sound instead, like something was spinning. Pushing the gas pedal seemed to trigger this new noise, but it'd also happen on its own if cranked for a few seconds.
Dunno, trying to find the noise on youtube
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose
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think this sound is pretty close
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Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student
Registered: 11/30/11
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Does it still crank or is the whirring all you get now?
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Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose
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Last seen: 28 days, 15 hours
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It still cranks each time the key is turned, goes for a few seconds or so and then is replaced by the whir alone.
I was sometimes trying to hit the gas as I cranked it, which seemed to trigger the whirring to happen faster.
From what I've been reading it sounds like the starter motor (bendex gear?) isn't properly meshing with the flywheel. Haven't taken a look at those parts yet
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Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student
Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system
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That's what I'd be looking at.
--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe
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Humble Newcomer
Diddler de niños
Registered: 03/12/17
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Starters do two things simultaneously : kick out the Bendix gear to engage the flyeheel and close a set of heavy contacts to allow a lot of current through, powering the motor and turning your engine.
It may be that the starter motor drive gear is losing engagement with the flyeheel ring gear
I would crawl under and look for loose starter motor mounting bolts first.
Some engines require shims to angle the starter when u install it, for the proper angle and depth of engagement in the two gear teeth, sometimes shims are left out by inexperienced mechanics if a repair was done at some point.
Could also be a worn bendix gear, once a chip happens in the gear it gets worse with every successful start of the engine.
If need be, you could remove the starter motor, inspect it's Bendix gear, look in the flyeheel housing with a light and bar the engine over by hand with a socket on the crankshaft pulley or similar and inspect entire ring gear.
Make a mark with a paint marker or sharpie on the first tooth u inspect, crank engine by hand until u see mark again to guarantee u inspected entire thing
It could also be that the hold in windings inside the starter motor have failed.
There are pull in windings and hold in windings and if your hold in windings say, the solder joint inside broke loose from too many heat cycles of contractions and expansions and now theres an open circuit or a bad connection, comes and goes, and when u loose that connection the motor is still spinning but the electromagnet fails, and the Bendix kicks out whole spinning.
That should be apparent by having a helper try to start it a few times on your command as your underneath nearby listening and determining where the Bendix is at all times, does it stay engaged the whole time your helper is holding the key to start or does it kick itself back out even though he's holding key entire time
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Humble Newcomer
Diddler de niños
Registered: 03/12/17
Posts: 1,483
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Different starters sound different but theres a very distinct sound that's coming to my mind, that I'm thinking you have.
Regular cranking noise like run-un-un-un-un then a fast whir like this
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose
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Last seen: 28 days, 15 hours
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thats the sound all right, putting that on the back burner atm, starter didn't seem loose at least.
went to start my honda to do a little more test driving/adjust the alignment and the refurbished battery I'd bought maybe two months ago can barely even crank the engine, even at a full charge.
enough already with the problems. guess I'm getting another new battery
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose
Registered: 02/15/12
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Last seen: 28 days, 15 hours
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starter and flywheel look good, nice strong spark at the spark plug. Thinking maybe I just need to siphon out all the old gas and replace w/fresh.
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Humble Newcomer
Diddler de niños
Registered: 03/12/17
Posts: 1,483
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lol, you will be vehicular entertainment for me for a while to come and i thank you for that. Keeps me from getting rusty while i'm not turning wrenches professionally atm.
Well at least we're narrowing it down, learning a lot and having fun while we do it. If that's the sound for sure, well we have a narrowed down area at least.
So you pulled the starter and inspected both flywheel ring gear and starter pinion gear, everything looks fine?
Did you try to have someone start the vehicle when you removed the starter and watch the bendix to see if it kicks out? You may have to supply a ground clamp with the starter removed from starter nose cone to a ground, the best thing to do would be to remove the starter entirely, noting wire locations for small wire and big wire, and put the starter on the bench and hook up a battery charger to it, ground clamp of charger to starter case and turn on batter charger with red clamp in your hand and carefully touch red clamp to the small terminal wire to kick out solenoid. Follow me? Basically supply power to the solenoid to watch if bendix kicks out. it should. You can always touch the red clamp to the large contact and that should spin the motor if you ever needed to test that circuit, but in your case your starter spins, we just doubt it kicks out.
Gas wouldn't concern me until over a year in the tank. Even then, ehhhh. I would have concerns of rough idle, surging at highway speed, other driveability problems from the fuel evaporating into a varnish gunk over time, but doubt a no start.
Cranking rpm would be my first culprit, we want 400rpm while rolling, measuring it isn't important but its crucial to tune your ear, maybe you already have. A healthy fresh battery spins a car like run-un-un-un-un-un real fast. That cranking rpm is crucial because of a few things, faster cranking equals more compression in the cylinder which raises the air charge temp which makes combustion easier. The more wore out an engine is, and the more off its fuel and ignition systems, the more important that initial cranking rpm is.
diesels for example. slow crank on a diesel you'll never fire off. Why? Diesels are compression ignition engines, no spark plugs, instead of the 8.5 : 1 compression ratios in most your FWD cars these days, those black cloud throwing diesels run 17:1 or 20:1 compression ratios , they compress the intake air so tight it gets red hot and immediately ignites the diesel fuel when its injected into the cylinder. Cranking rpm is even more crucial for them.
I forget which vehicle is which, but i suspect a parasitic draw on said vehicle, causing the new battery to be dead over 2 months and causing you to always have a less than full battery when you go to start and gives you slow cranking rpm and gives you issues.
Other helpful tips, battery voltage should be 12.65V static. that means key off, nothing discharging battery. 2.1 volts for every one of the six cells inside the battery.
Other helpful tips for starting systems, for you and everyone else thats learning :
When engine is running with a healthy battery and alternator, 14 - 14.5 volts should be measured at the battery.
When a weak battery is suspected to be the culprit of a no start condition (like now), have someone try cranking the engine while holding a multimeter or voltmeter on the battery terminals.
Many failed batteries will show a healthy 12 or 12.2 volts static but as soon as a load is applied you will hear slow cranking rpm and you can see the battery voltage drop to 11 or even lower while starting. If you see this, your battery is toast.
Parasitic draw -
Parasitic draw is something pulling a charge with your key in the off position. Typically to find this condition you would remove the battery negative clamp and use your multimeter or ammeter in series with your battery circuit, IE, remove negative battery clamp and seperate it from battery tie it off somewhere, get your ammeter, one probe of ammeter to battery negative POST, one probe of ammeter to battery negative CABLE, you have completed circuit through your meter, now you monitor how many mA are being drawn right now with key off. should be none.
If you have anything at all, go pull fuses one by one looking to see, when you pull a fuse and have the parasitic draw drop to 0, you know you killed the circuit in question.
Now, look at your fuse diagram and determine what all was powered by that fuse, ie taillights, brake lights, and go from there. sometimes a bad switch or relay. sometimes bulbs or sockets that have melted together and shorted out cause weird stuff. things going to ground through other things.
This was a good one, everyone needs to know those numbers, having a voltmeter on the battery while someone goes to crank shows you how healthy it really is.
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Humble Newcomer
Diddler de niños
Registered: 03/12/17
Posts: 1,483
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This is an excellent video I learned a few things in it.
He references the other ways to find a parasitic draw, by removing the battery clamp and killing circuits one by one or by using an amp clamp around the negative cable like I was saying but he shows a way to check without killing circuits and I will probably adopt this method from here on out
He has a very valid point that modern vehicles are more and more particular about diagnostic techniques but on your car you should not feel bad about yanking fuses to speed things up considerably.
A great educational video on the subject
PS I am not humble mechanic on YouTube LOL but I think id get along with him
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