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OfflineUniverse Unknown
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Being comfortable with death
    #25168508 - 04/27/18 06:53 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

I've been thinking about this after an especially strong trip that I had a few weeks ago. During the peak of the trip I was sitting on the couch and had an incredibly intense feeling of death and dissolving into nothingness, it happened multiple times over and throughout I was having open eye visuals of cells of fungi or bacteria eating remains (it felt like my remains though I did not see myself in it) and recycling my body back into nature.

It felt so peaceful and natural and profound and felt like it lasted an eternity. After I started coming down from the peak, I pondered on the idea of death and how it seemed like a totally normal thing to happen and was not scary. For a few minutes I wondered if maybe there was nothing left for me to do here in life.

It's not that I'm suicidal or depressed or looking for an escape but more like a sense of curiosity had developed in me towards what lies beyond this existence. I'm not particularly religious either but thinking about this while tripping made me feel like if I died, I would continue to exist in some form.

I'm not really sure what to make out of it.

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OnlineNorthernerM
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Universe Unknown] * 1
    #25168580 - 04/27/18 07:44 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

It's part of the psychedelic experience. :heart:

With stronger psychedelics you may be sure you killed yourself.

it's the truth in the medicine.


--------------------
The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.

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InvisibleInflaton
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Universe Unknown]
    #25168624 - 04/27/18 08:13 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Dont kid yourself. There is nothing after death. Just the people that survive you. You can perhaps say you stay alive through your descendants. But it is indeed a natural process and nothing to be afraid of. Some die, others are born. Life goes on.

I for one am totally certain there is nothing after death and I am comfortable with my own mortality.


--------------------
Materialistic, individualistic, truth seeker, risk taker.

Edited by Inflaton (04/27/18 08:16 AM)

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InvisiblefeeversM
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Inflaton]
    #25168688 - 04/27/18 08:44 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Inflaton said:
Dont kid yourself. There is nothing after death. Just the people that survive you. You can perhaps say you stay alive through your descendants. But it is indeed a natural process and nothing to be afraid of. Some die, others are born. Life goes on.

I for one am totally certain there is nothing after death and I am comfortable with my own mortality.



Define 'after'

:smile:

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InvisibleInflaton
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: feevers]
    #25168703 - 04/27/18 08:52 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

feevers said:
Quote:

Inflaton said:
Dont kid yourself. There is nothing after death. Just the people that survive you. You can perhaps say you stay alive through your descendants. But it is indeed a natural process and nothing to be afraid of. Some die, others are born. Life goes on.

I for one am totally certain there is nothing after death and I am comfortable with my own mortality.



Define 'after'

:smile:




I don't mean after the mushroom death, there are many things after that one! :wink:

After real death, when your body does to dust, you just don't exist anymore, same as before you were born. I never really understood why it is so difficult for people to accept this simple fact and so many stories have to be invented to go around it. I guess it comes from the small frightened child inside everyone.


--------------------
Materialistic, individualistic, truth seeker, risk taker.

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InvisiblefeeversM
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Inflaton]
    #25169139 - 04/27/18 12:28 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

The only 'after' we have proof of exists in or based upon the past, the past only exists in our memory's ability to parse together information in a useful and believable way in relation to the present, all the while the present is becoming etched in our memory as 'past'. Time appears to be linear, until you throw your brain's perception(which is manufactured hallucination) out of whack, then you can realize it might not be.

Some people 'remember' that they were once Jesus Christ, and the brain activity seems no different than in 'normal' memory recall. The brain is not a reliable source of what is actually going on, it is a symbolic explanation of conscious processing in this artificially perceived physical realm. Our perceptions are not what is really going on, they just appear to be how we navigate it in the present.

Outside of that, we know nothing, and anyone's answer is 100% as credible as anyone else's.

I choose to believe, knowing full well I'm probably wrong, that the fact the brain perceives a linear time culminating in an end is in some way a mechanism for growth of a very real and possibly eternal conscious being. Momentum toward growth is begot only by the urgency caused by our transient existence here. Wishful thinking, but it gives me a reason to lead what I consider to be a fulfilling and growth-filled life. I just don't think we're equipped with the tools to solve such a complex problem of consciousness, even if we could narrow it down to a certain number or configuration of neurons, synapses, action potentials etc, and be able to recreate it onto a computer as a robot or upload our own memories to a server, that would still solve nothing.

Psychedelics are great because they can show you first hand that time can be warped, the mind can be bent, the actual hallucination, life, can be challenged at its core.

Edited by feevers (04/27/18 12:32 PM)

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InvisibleInflaton
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: feevers]
    #25169342 - 04/27/18 02:00 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Agreed that human mind is extremelly unreliable. Perceptions are highly subjective. No question about that.

Reproducible physical experiments are not. They are objective. That's why science WORKS. And it works ALWAYS.

In all fundamental physical laws there is no difference between past and future. They are the same. Time has no preferred direction. This surprises most people when they learn about it because for us past and future are such different concepts. The only reason we experience them so differently is very well understood. It has to do with entropy, statistics and initial conditions. It is refereed to as "the arrow of time". It is not an inherent property of the lawas of physics. It is simply an accidental consequence of the current configuration of the universe. If you want to understand it better listen to this talk for instance, this guy explains is better than I would:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DMMULrzeDNSI&ved=0ahUKEwi9r76IntvaAhUFrVkKHV5zBecQtwIINDAF&usg=AOvVaw1rzAzf4SdUKAjWl_Vtxh-c


--------------------
Materialistic, individualistic, truth seeker, risk taker.

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OfflineAvidFan
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Universe Unknown] * 1
    #25169431 - 04/27/18 02:43 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

What is "you" anyway? It's interesting how some of the latest research is showing how bacteria not only constitute more of us than actual human cells, but can also actually influence moods and many other things in our bodies, in fact we'd be dead without many of the bacteria.

So are they you or are you they?  Certainly the atoms in your body will be recycled in some way (they are already the recycled nuclear waste of exploded stars - we are all "made of star stuff" as Carl Sagan famously said.

I don't think the "you" or "I" that we think of traditionally would survive, it is such a mess of influences from birth, genetic, familial, social.

What even constitutes "I"?  Is it your memories? Your thoughts, your feelings, your face?  They all change.

As Richard Dawkins once said,  think back to when you were  7 years old - that was you, right?  And yet not a single atom in your body is the same, it's already all been recycled.

I used to be entirely atheistic until my latest shroom journeys, but have come to believe there is something more, it's just impossible to know what it is, we can maybe only experience shadows of it.

Science is a great tool, but it is not flawless. Once upon a time science held that the earth was at the centre of the universe, that got proved wrong, and even as recently as a few years ago they thought the universe was slowing down when in fact it is speeding up, it almost seems that no matter how complete scientists think their knowledge is, there is another puzzle just around the corner.

Einstein said he refused to believe God played dice with the universe.  I think God (whatever that is, certainly not some dude with a beard!) might well actually be having a lot of fun with the whole thing.

My last trip I actually recalled being God at some point and it's to that I will go back - whatever that means, it doesn't mean the "I" that I am now will continue, maybe just that the "I" that I am now reflects some infinitesimal part of a greater whole.

Maybe. It's unknowable with the current wetware we have!

I am glad your trip has provided you with some reflection and given you some comfort, research has shown how helpful psychedelics can be for the terminally ill in allaying their fears.

Safe travels!

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InvisiblefeeversM
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Inflaton]
    #25169434 - 04/27/18 02:44 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Inflaton said:
Agreed that human mind is extremelly unreliable. Perceptions are highly subjective. No question about that.

Reproducible physical experiments are not. They are objective. That's why science WORKS. And it works ALWAYS.

In all fundamental physical laws there is no difference between past and future. They are the same. Time has no preferred direction. This surprises most people when they learn about it because for us past and future are such different concepts. The only reason we experience them so differently is very well understood. It has to do with entropy, statistics and initial conditions. It is refereed to as "the arrow of time". It is not an inherent property of the lawas of physics. It is simply an accidental consequence of the current configuration of the universe. If you want to understand it better listen to this talk for instance, this guy explains is better than I would:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DMMULrzeDNSI&ved=0ahUKEwi9r76IntvaAhUFrVkKHV5zBecQtwIINDAF&usg=AOvVaw1rzAzf4SdUKAjWl_Vtxh-c




That all makes sense, and I've read/seen most of Carroll's works and talks, I just don't really know that surface-level science is all that important in questioning the origins of life and consciousness.

Science merely gives us explanations and half-answers to our physical environment, gives us enough so we're not wandering around asking "what the hell is going on here?" all day, and can actually get stuff done.

It's what goes on inside the mind, and the essence of consciousness in general that we have zero answers for, and calls into question how "real" anything else actually is. Physics and neuroscience could prove anything, and it still wouldn't be as fascinating as the mere concept of existence. There will likely never be an equation for existence, and that could be because it doesn't operate on pretenses we're familiar with or able to perceive let alone comprehend.

When we can't trust our perceptions, we're kind of just at the mercy of whatever is going on here. Any time I think I "know" something, that's a good indicator that it's time for a trip. That notion gets wiped away real fast :smile:

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: feevers]
    #25169446 - 04/27/18 02:49 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

fire or worms
both are nice as can be


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Universe Unknown] * 1
    #25169453 - 04/27/18 02:52 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Universe Unknown said:
I've been thinking about this after an especially strong trip that I had a few weeks ago. During the peak of the trip I was sitting on the couch and had an incredibly intense feeling of death and dissolving into nothingness, it happened multiple times over and throughout I was having open eye visuals of cells of fungi or bacteria eating remains (it felt like my remains though I did not see myself in it) and recycling my body back into nature.

It felt so peaceful and natural and profound and felt like it lasted an eternity. After I started coming down from the peak, I pondered on the idea of death and how it seemed like a totally normal thing to happen and was not scary. For a few minutes I wondered if maybe there was nothing left for me to do here in life.

It's not that I'm suicidal or depressed or looking for an escape but more like a sense of curiosity had developed in me towards what lies beyond this existence. I'm not particularly religious either but thinking about this while tripping made me feel like if I died, I would continue to exist in some form.

I'm not really sure what to make out of it.




That's a pretty typical experience while tripping, actually. :awesomenod:

Where were you before you became a gamete, grew, and were born into consciousness?  After you've shuffled off the mortal coil you'll be in the same place.

As Buddhism would have it though, your birth as a human is a valuable opportunity to sort this out.  Tripping is a big help. :scaryshroom::thumbup:


--------------------

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InvisiblefeeversM
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: AvidFan] * 1
    #25169460 - 04/27/18 02:54 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

AvidFan said:
What is "you" anyway? It's interesting how some of the latest research is showing how bacteria not only constitute more of us than actual human cells, but can also actually influence moods and many other things in our bodies, in fact we'd be dead without many of the bacteria.

So are they you or are you they?  Certainly the atoms in your body will be recycled in some way (they are already the recycled nuclear waste of exploded stars - we are all "made of star stuff" as Carl Sagan famously said.

I don't think the "you" or "I" that we think of traditionally would survive, it is such a mess of influences from birth, genetic, familial, social.

What even constitutes "I"?  Is it your memories? Your thoughts, your feelings, your face?  They all change.

As Richard Dawkins once said,  think back to when you were  7 years old - that was you, right?  And yet not a single atom in your body is the same, it's already all been recycled.






good points.

The Dawkins quote is thrown around a lot, but most people leave out the fact that many neurons/brain cells stay with you your entire life. I define "me" as my synapses and specific brain wiring/chemistry, malleable and capable of being altered permanently with some effort. That's just surface level, and based on the current research of perception and neuroscience, this physical realm is more of graphical user interface than the code behind the program.

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OnlineNorthernerM
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Inflaton] * 1
    #25169591 - 04/27/18 03:45 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Inflaton said:
Dont kid yourself. There is nothing after death. Just the people that survive you. You can perhaps say you stay alive through your descendants. But it is indeed a natural process and nothing to be afraid of. Some die, others are born. Life goes on.

I for one am totally certain there is nothing after death and I am comfortable with my own mortality.



Your pure atheism is commendable, a pure starting point without illusions, but that may change as you experience more. I don't mean that you'll find Jesus or some bullcrap, but there appears to be more than meets the eye the closer one looks at the subject

Energy cannot end, it can only change form. Physics 101. We are a point of energy, so to we cannot end, we can only change form.

I have been there when all of me is stripped away, no body, family, memory or anything that ever tied me to this "reality". Drifted through the void. Came back. It made me doubt everything, doubt this place, doubt my perception... but most of all it made me sure that everything is just a state of flux. An infinite state of flux. Not something that ends just because "I" as I perceive myself don't exist here anymore. Far from nothing after death.


--------------------
The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.

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InvisibleInflaton
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Northerner]
    #25169642 - 04/27/18 04:13 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

There is nothing special with human conciousness. Animals also have it. Have you ever had a dog? Do you doubt he has conciousness? It is just a little more primitive than ours. The one of primates is almost the same as un humans. A squirrel's conciousness is even more primitive than a dog. There is a continuum. We will build machines that will also have counciousness, it will just be totally different from ours.


--------------------
Materialistic, individualistic, truth seeker, risk taker.

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InvisibleInflaton
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Inflaton]
    #25169666 - 04/27/18 04:21 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Not surprisingly most human's religious, spiritual and philosophical views are extremelly antropocentric. It is like the totally self-centered world view of small kids. We will outgrow it.

We are just smart machines. Evolved to roam the surface of the earth, survive and reproduce. Just like any other species. But we have tools that allow us to ask ourselves questions we are not equipped to answer. It is better to admit you dont know that to invent childish stories. There is plenty to be awed by in this world.


--------------------
Materialistic, individualistic, truth seeker, risk taker.

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OfflineJWM
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Inflaton]
    #25169833 - 04/27/18 05:32 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Have you ever heard a pre-pubescent child force himself laugh very hard at a dirty joke? The child cannot understand having a hard-on, or 'so this chick's on the rag...', or ejaculations, or orgasms, or anything to do with the mating dance. The child will understand all these things soon enough, but the nine year old cannot experience these things, so sexual desire is unfathomable. The kid just doesn't have the mental hardware to grasp it. Of course, he will in time.
So it is with death. It is all kinds of easy to talk about death in the abstract when you're twenty five, or even forty nine. The subject takes on a different gravity as the years pile up. You have the same lacunae about death at twenty five that the nine year old has about sex. And yeah, I know- you had that time when you flipped your bike, or fucked up doing something and came just *this* close. Sorry. Doesn't count. The memory of the trauma will fade just like the memory of childbirth fades for women. You return to the default setting. Trust me on this.
I have had one level 5 event on hallucinogens, reaching the stage where I was disembodied awareness observing Creation. It confirmed for me that there are realms of existence and consciousness that are far more vast than this which we can perceive through our five senses. There does indeed exist a meta-(more than)physical world. Consider the implications.
On the business of atheism. This is a can of worms I won't open.  I would merely ask the atheist, as well as the believer to concede that both positions are equally based in faith. No can can truly speak with authority on that which we CAN NOT know. I love the quote from Life of PI: "I choose to believe the better story."

JWM

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InvisibleInflaton
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: JWM]
    #25169962 - 04/27/18 06:24 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

It is true what you say about death. I am certain it is difficult to face. But we will all have to do it, and right now that does not bother me. I see no use in bothering with that.

About atheism, I just make my picture of the world based on my own observations. I have no faith in stories that were invented by humans that lived thousands of years ago when people literally didnt know where the sun went at night. Moreover I can see where those stories come from, I see their appeal, which makes me see them for what they are. And I am always open to change my worldview. However if I see god, he touches me with his finger and I feel the eternal timeless existence of the metaphysical world during a mushroom trip I dont think I will change my world view. I'll just think: whoa, that was a really cool mindfuck! :shrug: :lol:

The idea of god and/or a metaphysical world is not needed to explain absolutely anything, and only muddies the waters, it raises many more questions that it answers. Very few people is asking the right questions, we dont need more distractions.


--------------------
Materialistic, individualistic, truth seeker, risk taker.

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Offlineendogenous
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Universe Unknown] * 1
    #25170935 - 04/28/18 04:37 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

I've seen this kind of thing before. The Entheogen (God) is dissolving the barrier between the Knowledge  that God IS the Entheogen and the illusion that there is some other God (or no God in the case of atheists).  The person misinterprets this as death of the physical body.

The Entheogen/God is "eating" (dissolving) the illusory (spiritual)
body. I.e., the illusory body is dying.

As it says in the Taittiriya Upanishad: "I am that food that eats the eater of food"


--------------------
The Day of the Lord has come like a thief in the night. -- It is there but no one knows it.

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InvisibleCitizen X
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: endogenous]
    #25170943 - 04/28/18 04:56 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

*it seemed like a totally normal thing to happen and was not scary

I’ve always felt this way.


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OnlineNorthernerM
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Citizen X]
    #25170980 - 04/28/18 05:29 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Citizen X said:
*it seemed like a totally normal thing to happen and was not scary

I’ve always felt this way.



I always rationalized it that way too. But when it happens, and you think... "fuck, I'm gonna die" and it's really happening, right now, that is something else. The urge to survive takes over and the flight/flight responses kick into full gear. Pure animalistic instinct that is extremely hard to control.


--------------------
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InvisibleCitizen X
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Northerner]
    #25171032 - 04/28/18 06:36 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Northerner said:
Quote:

Citizen X said:
*it seemed like a totally normal thing to happen and was not scary

I’ve always felt this way.



I always rationalized it that way too. But when it happens, and you think... "fuck, I'm gonna die" and it's really happening, right now, that is something else. The urge to survive takes over and the flight/flight responses kick into full gear. Pure animalistic instinct that is extremely hard to control.




I agree 100%


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InvisibleBill_Oreilly
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Inflaton]
    #25171097 - 04/28/18 07:26 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Inflaton said:
Dont kid yourself. There is nothing after death. Just the people that survive you. You can perhaps say you stay alive through your descendants. But it is indeed a natural process and nothing to be afraid of. Some die, others are born. Life goes on.

I for one am totally certain there is nothing after death and I am comfortable with my own mortality.





Bullshit. Nobody knows. Death is a massive mystery and whoever claims to know what happens at death is full of shit. Thanks for sharing your opinion though


--------------------
Something there is mysteriously formed,
Existing before Heaven and Earth,
Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging,
All-pervading, unfailing,
I do not know its name; I call it tao.
If forced to give it a name, I call it
Great (ta). Being great, it flows out;
Flowing out means far-reaching;
Being far-reaching, it is said to return.


It's just a shot away..

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OfflineUniverse
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
    #25171156 - 04/28/18 07:57 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Bill_Oreilly said:
Quote:

Inflaton said:
Dont kid yourself. There is nothing after death. Just the people that survive you. You can perhaps say you stay alive through your descendants. But it is indeed a natural process and nothing to be afraid of. Some die, others are born. Life goes on.

I for one am totally certain there is nothing after death and I am comfortable with my own mortality.





Bullshit. Nobody knows. Death is a massive mystery and whoever claims to know what happens at death is full of shit. Thanks for sharing your opinion though




Bill nailed it.
It's ignorant and arrogant for anyone to claim they are certain one way or the other when it comes to what happens after death. How can one be certain there is something? How can one be certain there's nothing? It's fluff talk. Verbal masturbation.
The truth is that NOBODY KNOWS. People think they have an answer, but THEY DON'T. When you can accept that you just don't know, that's when you have discovered the truth. The truth is that you just don't know. Accept it and move on to the things you actually do know.

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InvisibleInflaton
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Universe]
    #25171167 - 04/28/18 08:07 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Universe said:
Quote:

Bill_Oreilly said:
Quote:

Inflaton said:
Dont kid yourself. There is nothing after death. Just the people that survive you. You can perhaps say you stay alive through your descendants. But it is indeed a natural process and nothing to be afraid of. Some die, others are born. Life goes on.

I for one am totally certain there is nothing after death and I am comfortable with my own mortality.





Bullshit. Nobody knows. Death is a massive mystery and whoever claims to know what happens at death is full of shit. Thanks for sharing your opinion though




Bill nailed it.
It's ignorant and arrogant for anyone to claim they are certain one way or the other when it comes to what happens after death. How can one be certain there is something? How can one be certain there's nothing? It's fluff talk. Verbal masturbation.
The truth is that NOBODY KNOWS. People think they have an answer, but THEY DON'T. When you can accept that you just don't know, that's when you have discovered the truth. The truth is that you just don't know. Accept it and move on to the things you actually do know.




Hahaha, ok fair enough. I could also think there is a pile of gold inside a wall in my house. In all fairness I have never looked inside, so definitely it COULD BE. It is not impossible, some earlier owner could have hid it there. Some people might choose to beleve their house is full of hidden gold because it makes them feel rich. In reality I have no reason to believe my house walls are full of gold and I am quite certain they are not. The same about the existence of god.

The problem with religion is that if your parents had been telling you since you were born that there is gold hidden in your house's walls, but it is just not possible to look inside them, you'd probably believe there is.

The idea of god as some sort of conscious entity or being is extremely anthropocentric, we humans always try to put everything in the context of ourselves, and this is understandable. But it is in my opinion very shortsighted. And if god is not some sort of dude with superpowers, as in the christian bible or islamic coran, but some sort of 'cosmic energy' as some people want to put it when confronted with the irrationality and childishness of actual religions, what is exactly this 'cosmic energy' needed for? We already have physics.


--------------------
Materialistic, individualistic, truth seeker, risk taker.

Edited by Inflaton (04/28/18 08:27 AM)

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OfflineUniverse
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Inflaton] * 2
    #25171192 - 04/28/18 08:27 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

You can't see radio waves or electricity or magnetism, but what would your life be without them? Convincing examples of the fact that only a fool rules out things they can't actually see or hold.

Regarding the existence of God -
My parents were atheists and I was brought up with no religion. Just my dad and his atheist views. I agreed with him up until I started to trip at age 16. That's when I started pondering the big questions and trying to come up with answers. But it wasn't until my wife gave birth that I came to the belief that God is real. I don't know how that works, and I never will, but experiencing the creation of life was a game changer. It is for a lot of people. If you never had a kid, you can't understand. I look at my kids and I know for sure that there's something out there that's bigger than all of us. But I'll never be so arrogant as to claim that I know what it is.

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InvisibleInflaton
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Universe]
    #25171201 - 04/28/18 08:33 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Universe said:
You can't see radio waves or electricity or magnetism, but what would your life be without them? Convincing examples of the fact that only a fool rules out things they can't actually see or hold.

Regarding the existence of God -
My parents were atheists and I was brought up with no religion. Just my dad and his atheist views. I agreed with him up until I started to trip at age 16. That's when I started pondering the big questions and trying to come up with answers. But it wasn't until my wife gave birth that came to the belief that God is real. I don't know how that works, and I never will, but experiencing the creation of life was a game changer. It is for a lot of people. If you never had a kid, you can't understand. I look at my kids and I know for sure that there's something out there that's bigger than all of us. But I'll never be so arrogant as to claim that I know what it is.




If you want to know, I have three totally amazing kids. I also trip on mushrooms, and sometimes I think about my kids tripping. I don't see where god comes into the picture.

And "can't see radio waves or electricity or magnetism"? You can't see anything else man! Light is electromagnetic waves at the nanometer wavelength. Most of what you feel and all chemical and biological processes are electromagnetism.  And waves/light at other wavelengths can't be detected by our eyes but can be very easily detected by other means/apparatus. From a simple AM/FM radio to a X-ray machine.


--------------------
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InvisiblefeeversM
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Universe]
    #25171206 - 04/28/18 08:36 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Inflaton said:
Quote:

Universe said:
Quote:

Bill_Oreilly said:
Quote:

Inflaton said:
Dont kid yourself. There is nothing after death. Just the people that survive you. You can perhaps say you stay alive through your descendants. But it is indeed a natural process and nothing to be afraid of. Some die, others are born. Life goes on.

I for one am totally certain there is nothing after death and I am comfortable with my own mortality.





Bullshit. Nobody knows. Death is a massive mystery and whoever claims to know what happens at death is full of shit. Thanks for sharing your opinion though




Bill nailed it.
It's ignorant and arrogant for anyone to claim they are certain one way or the other when it comes to what happens after death. How can one be certain there is something? How can one be certain there's nothing? It's fluff talk. Verbal masturbation.
The truth is that NOBODY KNOWS. People think they have an answer, but THEY DON'T. When you can accept that you just don't know, that's when you have discovered the truth. The truth is that you just don't know. Accept it and move on to the things you actually do know.




Hahaha, ok fair enough. I could also think there is a pile of gold inside a wall in my house. In all fairness I have never looked inside, so definitely it COULD BE. It is not impossible, some earlier owner could have hid it there. Some people might choose to beleve their house is full of hidden gold because it makes them feel rich. In reality I have no reason to believe my house walls are full of gold and I am quite certain they are not. The same about the existence of god.

The problem with religion is that if your parents had been telling you since you were born that there is gold hidden in your house's walls, but it is just not possible to look inside them, you'd probably believe there is.




I don't think anyone here is really talking about religion, you're completely overlooking the deeper messages and points in people's posts.

You can check and see if there's gold in the walls, almost everything we're told can be either verified, debunked, or at the least approached with logic. You can't check and see what happens when you die. It's not knowable. It's a concept with a different set of parameters than the logic and reason we use to survive our daily life.



Quote:

Universe said:
If you never had a kid, you can't understand. I look at my kids and I know for sure that there's something out there that's bigger than all of us. But I'll never be so arrogant as to claim that I know what it is.




Not true at all, having a kid doesn't entitle you to any knowledge. At best it's a reminder of the nature we come from, but that reminder can be had in many ways.

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InvisibleInflaton
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Inflaton]
    #25171239 - 04/28/18 08:48 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

These equations are sufficient to explain ABSOLUTELY ALL KNOWN PHENOMENA outside of gravity and nuclear reactions. This includes all of biology and human consciousness. If you really know of any phenomena that can't be explained by these you are in for a fucking Nobel prize man.



Ah wait, but it happens that to understand how the work actually works requires a lot of study and dedication. It surely is easier to come up with my own-brewed crazy ideas that allow me to roam happy believing what I want. To me that is what is really arrogant.


--------------------
Materialistic, individualistic, truth seeker, risk taker.

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OfflineUniverse
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: feevers]
    #25171253 - 04/28/18 08:54 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

feevers said:
Quote:

Universe said:
If you never had a kid, you can't understand. I look at my kids and I know for sure that there's something out there that's bigger than all of us. But I'll never be so arrogant as to claim that I know what it is.




Not true at all, having a kid doesn't entitle you to any knowledge. At best it's a reminder of the nature we come from, but that reminder can be had in many ways.




You twist my words. I said that if you never had a kid, you can't understand. You turn that into, if you have kids you're untitled to knowledge. Very different statement.
My dad had me and my sister, but remained an atheist until his miserable death at age 91. He told me on his death bed that he feared the impending nothingness more than anything he ever feared in his life. He wished that he had been religious because over the years he watched his religious friends accept death with grace and not panic.  I think he might have started to doubt his atheism towards the end and was worried about an eternity in hell. My dad was a psychiatrist with a 35-year private practice.

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InvisibleInflaton
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Universe]
    #25171265 - 04/28/18 08:58 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Universe said:
Quote:

feevers said:
Quote:

Universe said:
If you never had a kid, you can't understand. I look at my kids and I know for sure that there's something out there that's bigger than all of us. But I'll never be so arrogant as to claim that I know what it is.




Not true at all, having a kid doesn't entitle you to any knowledge. At best it's a reminder of the nature we come from, but that reminder can be had in many ways.




You twist my words. I said that if you never had a kid, you can't understand. You turn that into, if you have kids you're untitled to knowledge. Very different statement.
My dad had me and my sister, but remained an atheist until his miserable death at age 91. He told me on his death bed that he feared the impending nothingness more than anything he ever feared in his life. He wished that he had been religious because over the years he watched his religious friends accept death with grace and not panic.  I think he might have started to doubt his atheism towards the end and was worried about an eternity in hell. My dad was a psychiatrist with a 35-year private practice.




Whatever works for everyone. I have nothing against religious people. I have many loved ones that are religious. It is just not for me. I prefer to seek the truth, not follow a comforting lie.


--------------------
Materialistic, individualistic, truth seeker, risk taker.

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InvisiblefeeversM
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Universe]
    #25171282 - 04/28/18 09:17 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Universe said:
Quote:

feevers said:
Quote:

Universe said:
If you never had a kid, you can't understand. I look at my kids and I know for sure that there's something out there that's bigger than all of us. But I'll never be so arrogant as to claim that I know what it is.




Not true at all, having a kid doesn't entitle you to any knowledge. At best it's a reminder of the nature we come from, but that reminder can be had in many ways.




You twist my words. I said that if you never had a kid, you can't understand. You turn that into, if you have kids you're untitled to knowledge. Very different statement.
My dad had me and my sister, but remained an atheist until his miserable death at age 91. He told me on his death bed that he feared the impending nothingness more than anything he ever feared in his life. He wished that he had been religious because over the years he watched his religious friends accept death with grace and not panic.  I think he might have started to doubt his atheism towards the end and was worried about an eternity in hell. My dad was a psychiatrist with a 35-year private practice.




You said that just by looking at your kids that you know there's something out there, and people who don't have kids can't understand that. Even if you're not applying that to everyone, that's suggesting that having kids can give some sort of knowledge. Maybe I misunderstood the way you worded it, but I still disagree.

I don't think anyone has knowledge when it comes to what happens when we die. I agree with what your dad said, and that's why I manufactured my own belief about what might happen, knowing full well I'm almost certainly wrong. It makes for a better life, at least in my case.

Edited by feevers (04/28/18 09:19 AM)

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InvisibleBill_Oreilly
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Inflaton]
    #25171836 - 04/28/18 01:55 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Inflaton said:
Quote:

Universe said:
Quote:

feevers said:
Quote:

Universe said:
If you never had a kid, you can't understand. I look at my kids and I know for sure that there's something out there that's bigger than all of us. But I'll never be so arrogant as to claim that I know what it is.




Not true at all, having a kid doesn't entitle you to any knowledge. At best it's a reminder of the nature we come from, but that reminder can be had in many ways.




You twist my words. I said that if you never had a kid, you can't understand. You turn that into, if you have kids you're untitled to knowledge. Very different statement.
My dad had me and my sister, but remained an atheist until his miserable death at age 91. He told me on his death bed that he feared the impending nothingness more than anything he ever feared in his life. He wished that he had been religious because over the years he watched his religious friends accept death with grace and not panic.  I think he might have started to doubt his atheism towards the end and was worried about an eternity in hell. My dad was a psychiatrist with a 35-year private practice.




Whatever works for everyone. I have nothing against religious people. I have many loved ones that are religious. It is just not for me. I prefer to seek the truth, not follow a comforting lie.





Why does everyone who doesn't believe in God think you need to believe in a religion in order to believe in God? It's so simple minded it's mind boggling


--------------------
Something there is mysteriously formed,
Existing before Heaven and Earth,
Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging,
All-pervading, unfailing,
I do not know its name; I call it tao.
If forced to give it a name, I call it
Great (ta). Being great, it flows out;
Flowing out means far-reaching;
Being far-reaching, it is said to return.


It's just a shot away..

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Invisiblebreeg89
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Universe Unknown] * 1
    #25172318 - 04/28/18 07:04 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah, I had a similar death/re-birth experience on ALD-52 last spring. I was liberated from my body, watching it decompose below me. I then felt like I had been re-born.

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Offlineendogenous
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Inflaton]
    #25172830 - 04/29/18 04:21 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Inflaton said:
The idea of god as some sort of conscious entity or being is extremely anthropocentric, we humans always try to put everything in the context of ourselves, and this is understandable. But it is in my opinion very shortsighted. And if god is not some sort of dude with superpowers, as in the christian bible or islamic coran, but some sort of 'cosmic energy' as some people want to put it when confronted with the irrationality and childishness of actual religions, what is exactly this 'cosmic energy' needed for? We already have physics.





God/Entheogens are Consciousness. They are the Essence of Consciousness.

They are the true God that was worshiped by Christ, Buddha, Indra, Moses, Mohamed, etc.

What else could show the way to answer prayers other than Consciousness?

"They are the Eternal
among things that pass away.
Pur Consciousness
of conscious beings.
The ONE
who fulfills the prayers of many.
Only the wise who see Them in their souls
attain the Peace Eternal.
"

Katha Upanishad


--------------------
The Day of the Lord has come like a thief in the night. -- It is there but no one knows it.

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InvisibleInflaton
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: endogenous]
    #25173029 - 04/29/18 08:29 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

endogenous said:
Quote:

Inflaton said:
The idea of god as some sort of conscious entity or being is extremely anthropocentric, we humans always try to put everything in the context of ourselves, and this is understandable. But it is in my opinion very shortsighted. And if god is not some sort of dude with superpowers, as in the christian bible or islamic coran, but some sort of 'cosmic energy' as some people want to put it when confronted with the irrationality and childishness of actual religions, what is exactly this 'cosmic energy' needed for? We already have physics.





God/Entheogens are Consciousness. They are the Essence of Consciousness.

They are the true God that was worshiped by Christ, Buddha, Indra, Moses, Mohamed, etc.

What else could show the way to answer prayers other than Consciousness?

"They are the Eternal
among things that pass away.
Pur Consciousness
of conscious beings.
The ONE
who fulfills the prayers of many.
Only the wise who see Them in their souls
attain the Peace Eternal.
"

Katha Upanishad




It doesn't look to me like the bible, torah or the koran advocate the use of hallucinogenics. But given their contents it would make sense that their authors were regular users.

Religion and spiritualism are a leaky leaky boat, that can't withstand a single battering of the storm of rationality. Better leave it docked in the calm waters of incognizability, and dont start asking serious questions because you'll find very soon they have no answers.

I have met very smart people that are religious, and have tought deeply about the nature of god. When pushed about how/what is exactly god, what rules, if any, it follows, what is the ream in which it exists if it transcends space and time, by what mechanisms does it affect the physical world, etc... the only answer they can offer is the same as the official doctrine of the catholic church: you should not ask those questions because the human mind can't comprehend them even in principle. Well, sure as hell that answer does not satisfy me and looks like an intellectual run for the hills and take cover to me.

And dont get me started with the "universal energy fields of good vibes" of new age bs. That is just lunatic.


--------------------
Materialistic, individualistic, truth seeker, risk taker.

Edited by Inflaton (04/29/18 08:53 AM)

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OfflineAvidFan
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Inflaton] * 1
    #25173647 - 04/29/18 02:15 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Yet Superstring theorists, who are apparently scientists, talk of a possible 10th dimension which is incomprehensible to the human mind where everything imaginable is possible.  Sounds like scientists and mystics have some of the same ideas all along!  How about if those dimensions are compactified into our reality and our consciousness intersects with them, somehow - meaning we may have a consciousness that exists both here in 3 dimensions and eternally in other dimensions...

Have any of these dimensions been observed, tested, and proven using empirical scientific methods?  Nope.  They've been inferred from the fact scientists can't make sense of other aspects of the universe otherwise.

At this point fitting in data to make other data work begins to sound as much like new age BS and confirmation bias as anything else.

Quantum mechanics doesn't really stand up to the barrage of rationality all that well either...  It doesn't make sense on a rational level at all!

Scientists can't even really agree what science is.  Is it empirical observation or post-empirical confirmation?

Lots of intriguing questions, I have no idea at all what the answers are! :grin:

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InvisibleBill_Oreilly
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: AvidFan] * 1
    #25173664 - 04/29/18 02:26 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

science has turned into a laughing stock. They all define things differently and cant even agree on what they are trying to define. Its just one big mess filled with egotism and skepticism. Atleast they are starting to turn away from reduction-ism.


--------------------
Something there is mysteriously formed,
Existing before Heaven and Earth,
Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging,
All-pervading, unfailing,
I do not know its name; I call it tao.
If forced to give it a name, I call it
Great (ta). Being great, it flows out;
Flowing out means far-reaching;
Being far-reaching, it is said to return.


It's just a shot away..

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OfflineNature Boy
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
    #25173673 - 04/29/18 02:31 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

If you are not thinking about death, you are not thinking about living.


--------------------
All submitted posts under this user name are works of pure fiction or outright lies.  Any information, statement, or assertion contained therein should be considered pure unadulterated bullshit.  Note well:  Sorry, but I do not answer PM's unless you are a long-time trusted friend.  If you have a question, ask it in the appropriate thread.

                                                                               

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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
    #25173675 - 04/29/18 02:31 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

I find it hilarious we keep getting good evidence that the big bang is bullshit yet people keep perpetuating it as some insurpassable God-explosion on the limits of existence. It’s nuts. Science is awesome and hilarious at the same time.

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Invisiblelarry.fisherman
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Nature Boy]
    #25173678 - 04/29/18 02:32 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Nature Boy said:
If you are not thinking about death, you are not thinking about living.



Few too many take the time to realize we’re all just looking for a good death. Only one way to get there though.

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InvisibleInflaton
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: larry.fisherman]
    #25173838 - 04/29/18 03:39 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Bill_Oreilly said:
science has turned into a laughing stock. They all define things differently and cant even agree on what they are trying to define. Its just one big mess filled with egotism and skepticism. Atleast they are starting to turn away from reduction-ism.




Quote:

XLCaps said:
I find it hilarious we keep getting good evidence that the big bang is bullshit yet people keep perpetuating it as some insurpassable God-explosion on the limits of existence. It’s nuts. Science is awesome and hilarious at the same time.




OMG. I am mind blown by your ignorance guys. I'm not going to try to convince you of anything. I hope you enjoy your obscurantist views of the world. And luckily for you not everyone thinks that way, otherwise you'd find yourselves living in a very different, much more uncomfortable world.


--------------------
Materialistic, individualistic, truth seeker, risk taker.

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OfflineMartianman420
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Inflaton]
    #25173894 - 04/29/18 04:03 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

this is hard for me so thats why i trip so hard lol


--------------------
Thinking is not an option

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InvisibleBill_Oreilly
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Nature Boy]
    #25174178 - 04/29/18 06:45 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Nature Boy said:
If you are not thinking about death, you are not thinking about living.





Yes sir.


Hear me out..


i believe that, in most cases, the more you fear death, the more you appreciate life.

Look at me for an example. i am so pissed/scared at the fact i will die because i know that theres a chance that i will never be able to trip again and i will never be able to experience the joys of life and the learning that goes with it. i LOVE tripping so much and thats the reason why i dont want to die, because of the respect i have for life, tripping, and the fun in learning in life. I will miss it all and want to stay. That is my only issue with death.

It comes down to being able to see the good in life so much so that death scares the shit out of you because you know theres a chance it will all never come back to you.


--------------------
Something there is mysteriously formed,
Existing before Heaven and Earth,
Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging,
All-pervading, unfailing,
I do not know its name; I call it tao.
If forced to give it a name, I call it
Great (ta). Being great, it flows out;
Flowing out means far-reaching;
Being far-reaching, it is said to return.


It's just a shot away..

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InvisibleBill_Oreilly
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Posts: 26,370
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: larry.fisherman]
    #25174197 - 04/29/18 06:56 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

XLCaps said:
I find it hilarious we keep getting good evidence that the big bang is bullshit yet people keep perpetuating it as some insurpassable God-explosion on the limits of existence. It’s nuts. Science is awesome and hilarious at the same time.





Yeah man...science is good for 2 things...to bring us better toys and make life more convenient. But when it tried being philosophical it turned itself into a joke.


--------------------
Something there is mysteriously formed,
Existing before Heaven and Earth,
Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging,
All-pervading, unfailing,
I do not know its name; I call it tao.
If forced to give it a name, I call it
Great (ta). Being great, it flows out;
Flowing out means far-reaching;
Being far-reaching, it is said to return.


It's just a shot away..

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InvisibleInflaton
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
    #25175450 - 04/30/18 12:08 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Bill_Oreilly said:
Yeah man...science is good for 2 things...to bring us better toys and make life more convenient.





Science is just understanding. Understanding gives us power. To make better toys, make life more convenient if we choose so, or conversely to create hell on earth if that is what we want.

Quote:


But when it tried being philosophical it turned itself into a joke.




I kind of agree with that, but I would rephrase as: when you mix science with philosophy the result most often than not is a joke.

Most of philosophy is a joke anyway. And a bad one. Not even funny.


--------------------
Materialistic, individualistic, truth seeker, risk taker.

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OnlineNorthernerM
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Inflaton]
    #25175537 - 04/30/18 12:58 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Inflaton said:
Most of philosophy is a joke anyway. And a bad one. Not even funny.



Don't know what philosophy you've been reading. I find most of it highly interesting... religion on the other hand tends to be a mostly unpalatable.


--------------------
The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.

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InvisibleInflaton
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Northerner]
    #25175587 - 04/30/18 01:34 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Northerner said:
Quote:

Inflaton said:
Most of philosophy is a joke anyway. And a bad one. Not even funny.



Don't know what philosophy you've been reading. I find most of it highly interesting... religion on the other hand tends to be a mostly unpalatable.




I admit I am mostly ignorant in the matter. But my take on what I have read is that philosophy authors like to hint at interesting concepts, play with words, raise riddles and enigmatic questions. But not offer any clear solutions. You are left with some vague idea that you learned something, but you cant be too sure what. Because to me, if they really came up with a clear and transparent paradigm about the issues at hand, it would not be called philosophy. It would be called science.

Here you have a couple of good quotes:

When I study philosophical works I feel I am swallowing something which I don't have in my mouth. ~Albert Einstein

Philosophy consists mostly of kicking up a lot of dust and then complaining that you can’t see anything. ~Gottfried Leibniz


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InvisibleBill_Oreilly
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Inflaton]
    #25176059 - 04/30/18 05:35 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Inflaton said:
Quote:

Northerner said:
Quote:

Inflaton said:
Most of philosophy is a joke anyway. And a bad one. Not even funny.



Don't know what philosophy you've been reading. I find most of it highly interesting... religion on the other hand tends to be a mostly unpalatable.




like to hint at interesting concepts, play with words, raise riddles and enigmatic questions. But not offer any clear solutions. You are left with some vague idea that you learned something, but you cant be too sure what





That is also what science does


--------------------
Something there is mysteriously formed,
Existing before Heaven and Earth,
Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging,
All-pervading, unfailing,
I do not know its name; I call it tao.
If forced to give it a name, I call it
Great (ta). Being great, it flows out;
Flowing out means far-reaching;
Being far-reaching, it is said to return.


It's just a shot away..

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InvisibleInflaton
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
    #25176348 - 04/30/18 07:52 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Bill_Oreilly said:
Quote:

Inflaton said:
Quote:

Northerner said:
Quote:

Inflaton said:
Most of philosophy is a joke anyway. And a bad one. Not even funny.



Don't know what philosophy you've been reading. I find most of it highly interesting... religion on the other hand tends to be a mostly unpalatable.




like to hint at interesting concepts, play with words, raise riddles and enigmatic questions. But not offer any clear solutions. You are left with some vague idea that you learned something, but you cant be too sure what





That is also what science does




Ok sir, one point for you. :shrug:

But your computer works, after all. :lol:


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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
    #25176375 - 04/30/18 08:06 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

I think both you guys are missing the point (and the mechanics) on both of those concepts.

See my signature.


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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Universe Unknown]
    #25176399 - 04/30/18 08:17 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Death is a perspective, not a reality. When psychedelics dissolve our boundaries, we can see the limitations of self give way to the infinite continuity of the whole. Next time try not to interpret or think about the experience, follow the feelings like a faint smell and give your senses over to them as fully as possible.

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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Hygrocybe]
    #25177227 - 05/01/18 07:07 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Hygrocybe said:
Death is a perspective, not a reality.





That is so false. How can anyone believe such a ridiculous statement


--------------------
Something there is mysteriously formed,
Existing before Heaven and Earth,
Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging,
All-pervading, unfailing,
I do not know its name; I call it tao.
If forced to give it a name, I call it
Great (ta). Being great, it flows out;
Flowing out means far-reaching;
Being far-reaching, it is said to return.


It's just a shot away..

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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
    #25178047 - 05/01/18 02:26 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

People have been questioning our belief in death for millennia: the ship of Theseus, Ramana Maharshi's awakening, and shifting definitions of clinical death. When psychedelics offer you a glimpse of transcendent states of consciousness, don't be held back by a belief in death.

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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Inflaton]
    #25178285 - 05/01/18 03:51 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Inflaton said:
These equations are sufficient to explain ABSOLUTELY ALL KNOWN PHENOMENA outside of gravity and nuclear reactions. This includes all of biology and human consciousness. If you really know of any phenomena that can't be explained by these you are in for a fucking Nobel prize man.



Ah wait, but it happens that to understand how the work actually works requires a lot of study and dedication. It surely is easier to come up with my own-brewed crazy ideas that allow me to roam happy believing what I want. To me that is what is really arrogant.



You sound so smug and completely sure of yourself. Science is basically our "next best guess based on the information that we are able to process" Remember that science once said rather emphatically that the earth was flat or later that the sun revolved around the earth. We may be at a point where science is able to prove or DISprove past scientific discoveries on a pretty  head spinning rate. We are now able to smash tiny particles into each others at unimaginable speeds so that we may find what? the tiniest of all particles? The God particle?

IDK, but to say that you completely and unequivocally believe something to be an absolute truth when, clearly it cannot be proven with our current limited technology is just plain close minded. I am certainly not as bright as you, so, if you don't mind...please explain to me in layman's terms how Maxwell's equation can prove beyond any doubt that we can fully understand consciousness.:shrug: That, I do not get.

For me, as a very young child...2-3 yrs. old, I can remember having this overwhelming feeling of just knowing, I mean knowing as surely as a my hand was a hand and feet were feet that this life was not my first go around. This is nothing that was taught to me as the feeling may have even predated me being able to speak...I'm not sure why or where I may have been, but, I just knew....this was as profound as vision would be. In any case, it is a truth to me and will stand as a truth in my world. Tripping has only cemented this feeling of transient consciousness or whatever you may want to call it.

To my knowledge, there has not yet been a device made that can measure consciousness....I do believe this will be in our future, though. Lastly, I will close with some quotes from my favorite scientist of all time....one, you might say, was blessed with a bit of the divine.

"Imagination is more important than knowledge.
Knowledge is limited.
Imagination encircles the world."

"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth"

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds"

"All religions, arts, and sciences are branches of the same tree."

.....Albert Einstein


--------------------
Look Deep Into Nature,and Then You Will Understand Everything Better.

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InvisibleInflaton
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Thayendanegea]
    #25178609 - 05/01/18 06:39 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Thayendanegea said:
Quote:

Inflaton said:
These equations are sufficient to explain ABSOLUTELY ALL KNOWN PHENOMENA outside of gravity and nuclear reactions. This includes all of biology and human consciousness. If you really know of any phenomena that can't be explained by these you are in for a fucking Nobel prize man.



Ah wait, but it happens that to understand how the work actually works requires a lot of study and dedication. It surely is easier to come up with my own-brewed crazy ideas that allow me to roam happy believing what I want. To me that is what is really arrogant.



You sound so smug and completely sure of yourself. Science is basically our "next best guess based on the information that we are able to process" Remember that science once said rather emphatically that the earth was flat or later that the sun revolved around the earth. We may be at a point where science is able to prove or DISprove past scientific discoveries on a pretty  head spinning rate. We are now able to smash tiny particles into each others at unimaginable speeds so that we may find what? the tiniest of all particles? The God particle?

IDK, but to say that you completely and unequivocally believe something to be an absolute truth when, clearly it cannot be proven with our current limited technology is just plain close minded. I am certainly not as bright as you, so, if you don't mind...please explain to me in layman's terms how Maxwell's equation can prove beyond any doubt that we can fully understand consciousness.:shrug: That, I do not get.

For me, as a very young child...2-3 yrs. old, I can remember having this overwhelming feeling of just knowing, I mean knowing as surely as a my hand was a hand and feet were feet that this life was not my first go around. This is nothing that was taught to me as the feeling may have even predated me being able to speak...I'm not sure why or where I may have been, but, I just knew....this was as profound as vision would be. In any case, it is a truth to me and will stand as a truth in my world. Tripping has only cemented this feeling of transient consciousness or whatever you may want to call it.

To my knowledge, there has not yet been a device made that can measure consciousness....I do believe this will be in our future, though. Lastly, I will close with some quotes from my favorite scientist of all time....one, you might say, was blessed with a bit of the divine.

"Imagination is more important than knowledge.
Knowledge is limited.
Imagination encircles the world."

"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth"

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds"

"All religions, arts, and sciences are branches of the same tree."

.....Albert Einstein




I agree with everything you say, specially with the part where you say I am smug and sure of myself :shrug::lol:

Let me clarify what I said about Maxwell's equations, I took some license there. Obviously that is not the whole story. But this is the whole story as we know it:



And let me also clarify what science says about the fundamental workings of the universe, as currently understood. It says that within the current boundaries of our 4 dimensional spacetime and given the current known force and matter fields, ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN. And I mean ANYTHING. That is magic enough for me. I don't need to look for more. But with the magic comes the rules, and the probability of something happening is weighted in a very precise way by the function above. So if you want to see something really 'weird' happen, like a macroscopic object spontaneously behaving in a 'counter intuitive' way, the odds are so low, that you'd have to wait an inimaginable time for that to happen. So regarding weird beliefs that a lot of people seem to have about how the universe works, be that some sort of metaphysical god, or perhaps someone that thinks that we are all pink rabbits whose brains are being manipulated by a six legged blue alien into believing we are humans in earth, even if they can't be proven false and they definitely COULD BE TRUE, are just not needed. Therefore by Occam's razor, we must reject them. Until the time where such theory is needed to explain some phenomena we can all see and experience, and test and repeat once and again. And all known phenomena can be explained by the equations above, that have been tested in many ways to incredible precision. Or better said, what is true is a weaker statement, that is that we have no reason to believe that any known phenomena (including human conciousness, which is just the inner workings of the 'brain machine') can't be explained by the above. If anyone can show that there is any reproducible phenomena that does not fit with the current accepted scientific theories, I can tell you, scientists will make you their new rock star, they are begging for something like that to happen, be that a six legged blue alien or a "universal field of good vibes". But we can't take anyone's theories or observations without proof because we all know how extremely unreliable the human brain is. It does malfunction in every possible way. So even if you see something 'weird', don't fool yourself.

And regarding the topic of this forum, mushrooms can definitely give you great insights, a rush of creativity and a deep sense of understanding. But also don't confuse that sense of understanding and certainty with true understanding and certainty. That might or might not be. Any ideas you got tripping have to be very critically examined and can't be taken at face value, no matter how beautiful they are and how much certainty you feel you have. And I don't want to sound too somber, I still believe some can be true understanding!


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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Inflaton]
    #25179121 - 05/02/18 12:24 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

:undecided:


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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Inflaton]
    #25179146 - 05/02/18 01:30 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Inflaton said:
Dont kid yourself. There is nothing after death. Just the people that survive you. You can perhaps say you stay alive through your descendants. But it is indeed a natural process and nothing to be afraid of. Some die, others are born. Life goes on.

I for one am totally certain there is nothing after death and I am comfortable with my own mortality.




The here after is of course now, and if you examine it closely you realize there is nowhere else than now. - Alan Watts


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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Inflaton]
    #25179254 - 05/02/18 04:29 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Inflaton
Quote:

Inflaton said:ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN. And I mean ANYTHING. That is magic enough for me. I don't need to look for more. But with the magic comes the rules, and the probability of something happening is weighted in a very precise way by the function above. So if you want to see something really 'weird' happen, like a macroscopic object spontaneously behaving in a 'counter intuitive' way, the odds are so low, that you'd have to wait an inimaginable time for that to happen. So regarding weird beliefs that a lot of people seem to have about how the universe works, be that some sort of metaphysical god, or perhaps someone that thinks that we are all pink rabbits whose brains are being manipulated by a six legged blue alien into believing we are humans in earth




Just playing, but the dark era of the universe is going to be a very long, unimaginably long time.  So long that if you were to hypothetically write the number of years, and used the atoms in the universe for the 0s after the 1, there wouldn't be enough atoms in the entire observable universe to write that number down. (of course there would be an equation to come up with the number but the mathematical side of my brain is not well developed!) but you get the point.

Say there was a Dark Era in some universe somewhen, which went on for a very long time, and it went on for so long that ultimately the probability of a sentient creator being popping into existence out of nothing became inevitable.  Or indeed a bunch of pink rabbits manipulated by aliens scenario!

If ANYTHING can happen, then given an infinite amount of time, anything WILL!  Making it impossible to dismiss any possibility. That's a weird idea in itself, I think the problem here is nomenclature, it's like the 5 blind wise guys identifying an elephant for the king, they all feel different bits but think it's a wall, a snake, a rope, etc - they are all right in a limited way based on their observations, but also missing out on a lot of data!

I am going to take the pink rabbit hypothesis into my day and have a lot of fun with it :grin:

Edited by AvidFan (05/02/18 04:30 AM)

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InvisibleInflaton
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: AvidFan]
    #25179354 - 05/02/18 05:46 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

AvidFan said:
Inflaton
Quote:

Inflaton said:ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN. And I mean ANYTHING. That is magic enough for me. I don't need to look for more. But with the magic comes the rules, and the probability of something happening is weighted in a very precise way by the function above. So if you want to see something really 'weird' happen, like a macroscopic object spontaneously behaving in a 'counter intuitive' way, the odds are so low, that you'd have to wait an inimaginable time for that to happen. So regarding weird beliefs that a lot of people seem to have about how the universe works, be that some sort of metaphysical god, or perhaps someone that thinks that we are all pink rabbits whose brains are being manipulated by a six legged blue alien into believing we are humans in earth




Just playing, but the dark era of the universe is going to be a very long, unimaginably long time.  So long that if you were to hypothetically write the number of years, and used the atoms in the universe for the 0s after the 1, there wouldn't be enough atoms in the entire observable universe to write that number down. (of course there would be an equation to come up with the number but the mathematical side of my brain is not well developed!) but you get the point.

Say there was a Dark Era in some universe somewhen, which went on for a very long time, and it went on for so long that ultimately the probability of a sentient creator being popping into existence out of nothing became inevitable.  Or indeed a bunch of pink rabbits manipulated by aliens scenario!

If ANYTHING can happen, then given an infinite amount of time, anything WILL!  Making it impossible to dismiss any possibility. That's a weird idea in itself, I think the problem here is nomenclature, it's like the 5 blind wise guys identifying an elephant for the king, they all feel different bits but think it's a wall, a snake, a rope, etc - they are all right in a limited way based on their observations, but also missing out on a lot of data!

I am going to take the pink rabbit hypothesis into my day and have a lot of fun with it :grin:




Indeed. That is called the Bolzmann brain hypothesis:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boltzmann_brain


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Edited by Inflaton (05/02/18 05:51 AM)

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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Inflaton]
    #25182325 - 05/03/18 05:07 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Thanks Inflaton - that's most interesting.

It's also interesting how these theories arise after I've mentioned them on forums, having never come across them before despite years of research and exploration.

Did I just stumble across them, or did my musings create them?

What if I am God and all of this is just a solipsistic illusion?

And I haven't even tripped for 3 weeks, lol!

Thank you for the Boltzmann thing - seems to be a locus where philosophy and science collide!

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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Universe Unknown]
    #25183014 - 05/03/18 10:50 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Sounds trippy man.


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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Inflaton]
    #25183276 - 05/04/18 04:41 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

4
Quote:

Inflaton said:

It doesn't look to me like the bible, torah or the koran advocate the use of hallucinogenics. But given their contents it would make sense that their authors were regular users.

Religion and spiritualism are a leaky leaky boat, that can't withstand a single battering of the storm of rationality. Better leave it docked in the calm waters of incognizability, and dont start asking serious questions because you'll find very soon they have no answers.

I have met very smart people that are religious, and have tought deeply about the nature of god. When pushed about how/what is exactly god, what rules, if any, it follows, what is the ream in which it exists if it transcends space and time, by what mechanisms does it affect the physical world, etc... the only answer they can offer is the same as the official doctrine of the catholic church: you should not ask those questions because the human mind can't comprehend them even in principle. Well, sure as hell that answer does not satisfy me and looks like an intellectual run for the hills and take cover to me.

And dont get me started with the "universal energy fields of good vibes" of new age bs. That is just lunatic.





Actually, you could start with the Egyptians. The Hebrews were slaves in Egypt.

The Goddess Isis was called "the Acacia Goddess". All of the Egyptian Gods were born under the Acacia Tree. The main God, Osiris, was thought to be INSIDE of the Acacia Tree.
https://isiopolis.com/2015/07/12/isis-the-acacia-goddess/

The Hebrews made ALL of the wood furnishings in the "Trysting Tent" where they would go to meet with God, out of ACACIA wood.

And, of course, the Christians (who were Jews) had to have known about that.



But there are other references. E.g., the "Burning Bush" from which God appeared to Moses fits with a red Amanita Muscaria. The Manna which fit the description of Psilocybin.


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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: endogenous]
    #25186912 - 05/06/18 12:59 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

The thing about our universe is that it started in a very "unlikely" place. As it moves to a more likely configuration, it crates an arrow of time for us, that makes us differentiate past from future. The question becomes why did it start in such an unlikely configuration, and the answer is inflation. One can ask then why did inflation took place, one possible answer is the multiverse and the implications are mind blowing. Our for-all-purposes infinite universe is just the tiniest minuscule fraction of the whole thing.

About the bolzman brain I dont think it means much. If they do exist, good for them. We are still here. And I dont think our universe is a  illusion of your mind that is going to collapse tomorrow.

I'm coming down from a trip now, listening to mozarts requiem, next to my sleeping 3y old daughter and feeling quite in peace.


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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Inflaton]
    #25187047 - 05/06/18 05:03 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

One thing zion-tists don't seem to have a grasp of is ETERNITY.

They seem able to accept an "infinite" universe - but not an ETERNAL one in spite of
"Matter cannot be created or destroyed".

"They are the Eternal
among things that pass away.
Pure Cosciousness
of conscious beings.
The ONE
who fulfills the prayers of many.
Only the wise who see Them in their souls
attain the Peace Eternal"
"
--Katha Upanishad



They are the Essence of Consciousness
They are God/Entheogens.
:smile:


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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Inflaton]
    #25187420 - 05/06/18 09:47 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Inflaton said:
Quote:

feevers said:
Quote:

Inflaton said:
Dont kid yourself. There is nothing after death. Just the people that survive you. You can perhaps say you stay alive through your descendants. But it is indeed a natural process and nothing to be afraid of. Some die, others are born. Life goes on.

I for one am totally certain there is nothing after death and I am comfortable with my own mortality.



Define 'after'

:smile:




I don't mean after the mushroom death, there are many things after that one! :wink:

After real death, when your body does to dust, you just don't exist anymore, same as before you were born. I never really understood why it is so difficult for people to accept this simple fact and so many stories have to be invented to go around it. I guess it comes from the small frightened child inside everyone.




Do you not believe in spirit and soul? Tripping makes these concepts apparent to me. For some reason the choice to believe in an afterlife made death no less frightening to me. Only once I simply accepted death, I seemed freed from its agony. I think that is one of the main reasons christianity is so popular. It easily lets people understand you don't need to be afraid of death.

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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: ketafiend]
    #25187467 - 05/06/18 10:10 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ketafiend said:
Do you not believe in spirit and soul? Tripping makes these concepts apparent to me. For some reason the choice to believe in an afterlife made death no less frightening to me. Only once I simply accepted death, I seemed freed from its agony. I think that is one of the main reasons christianity is so popular. It easily lets people understand you don't need to be afraid of death.




I absolutely do not believe in spirit, soul, religion, superstitions or anyhing of the sort. No amount of mushrooms I take is going to change this. I can see too clearly for wasting time on that. I thought hard about those issues and made my mind about them at a very early age. It is apparent that those beliefs in all their many shapes and forms are human constructs that have nothing to do with how the universe actually works. And I am perfectly fine with death and mortality. Our time is finite, fine. It cant be otherwise. I'll probably wont like it when my time comes, but right now it does not bother me thinking it will. Also I'll have psychedelics to ease the trance :shrug: :mushroom2:


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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Inflaton]
    #25187475 - 05/06/18 10:19 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

And to all those that feel like they need to believe in the afterlife because they are terrified of actual death, I'd tell them this: grow the fuck up and stop being a frigthened childish pussy. You are not so important and not accepting that you wont exist forever is just a stupid selfish feeling. Other people will exist instead.


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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Inflaton] * 1
    #25190848 - 05/08/18 04:42 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Entheogens are the true and only God. Any good that can come to humans is through Them. They are the source of all knowledge. They are the Tree of Knowledge (of good and evil).

They are Eternal.

Speaking about "Amata"  (Amrita/Soma, Hindu - Ambrosia, Greek - Amrit, Sikhism - Entheogens)

"The Buddha in The Dhammapada, gave guidance on Amata ( Nibbana)

Mindfulness is the way to The Deathless (Amata-Nibbana)
Unmindfulness is the way to death.
Those who are mindful do not die
Those who are not mindful are as if dead already.

Fully comprehending this,
The wise, who are mindful,
Rejoice in being mindful and
Find delight in the domain of the Noble Ones (Ariyas).

The wise, constantly cultivating tranquility and insight development practice
Being ever mindful and steadfastly striving, realise Nibbana (Amata)
Nibbana, which is free from the bonds of yoga
Nibbana, (Amata) the Incomparable!
"
--(Dhamapadda 21-23)

The "Noble Ones" (Ariyas) is a reference to the Aryans who brought the worship of Soma to the Hindus and Amata (the Buddhist Amrita/Soma) to the Buddhists.


--------------------
The Day of the Lord has come like a thief in the night. -- It is there but no one knows it.

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OfflineAvidFan
Psychonaut
I'm a teapot

Registered: 03/05/18
Posts: 20
Loc: UK
Last seen: 5 years, 2 months
Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Inflaton]
    #25191835 - 05/08/18 03:56 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Inflaton said:
And to all those that feel like they need to believe in the afterlife because they are terrified of actual death, I'd tell them this: grow the fuck up and stop being a frigthened childish pussy. You are not so important and not accepting that you wont exist forever is just a stupid selfish feeling. Other people will exist instead.




Steady on mate, we all feel different things in different ways.  Our survival instinct is very strong, like any organism we do what we can to keep on living! Unlike most organisms, we can imagine not living, and for many people that is a scary thought. I don't think it's stupid or childish or selfish, it's just human.  I don't think there's any need for insults, there is a frightened child at the core of many of us, and not everyone can have your perspective or certainty, so do please respect others fears and opinions my friend!

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InvisibleInflaton
Dr. Stranger


Registered: 03/28/18 Happy 6th Shroomiversary!
Posts: 1,680
Loc: Limbo
Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: AvidFan]
    #25191894 - 05/08/18 04:28 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

AvidFan said:
Quote:

Inflaton said:
And to all those that feel like they need to believe in the afterlife because they are terrified of actual death, I'd tell them this: grow the fuck up and stop being a frigthened childish pussy. You are not so important and not accepting that you wont exist forever is just a stupid selfish feeling. Other people will exist instead.




Steady on mate, we all feel different things in different ways.  Our survival instinct is very strong, like any organism we do what we can to keep on living! Unlike most organisms, we can imagine not living, and for many people that is a scary thought. I don't think it's stupid or childish or selfish, it's just human.  I don't think there's any need for insults, there is a frightened child at the core of many of us, and not everyone can have your perspective or certainty, so do please respect others fears and opinions my friend!




I express my opinion vehemently because this is a public internet forum, and I dont think people should get offeneded by the generic opinions of a stranger. Otherwise I'd be offended continuously, like every time I hear any display of religious faith. Most religions carry the implicit or even explicit premise that non-believers are just wrong on the way they live their lives, they are immoral and sinners that will suffer forever in hell. Isn't that offensive if you think about it?

Also, I dont mind offending people that are easily offended.

That being said, I agree with your points. If anyone wants to have any beliefs that make their life easier, that's fine by me, as long as they dont try to impose. We can be friends and even like each other. But I am still allowed to call them on their bs.


--------------------
Materialistic, individualistic, truth seeker, risk taker.

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InvisibleInflaton
Dr. Stranger


Registered: 03/28/18 Happy 6th Shroomiversary!
Posts: 1,680
Loc: Limbo
Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Inflaton]
    #25191918 - 05/08/18 04:44 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

And most religion is peer pressure anyway. I am quite sure more than 50% of people that attend churches just dont want to ask themselves any existential questions for fear of where it will lead them. What are they going to do on Sundays and what will their aquaintances say if they suddenly come out as atheists? Pfff...

It is always more comfortable not to ask and to have 'faith'.


--------------------
Materialistic, individualistic, truth seeker, risk taker.

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Offlineendogenous
נפל מגיהינום
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/07/12
Posts: 2,365
Last seen: 2 months, 21 days
Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Inflaton]
    #25194766 - 05/10/18 04:12 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Inflaton said:
And to all those that feel like they need to believe in the afterlife because they are terrified of actual death, I'd tell them this: grow the fuck up and stop being a frigthened childish pussy. You are not so important and not accepting that you wont exist forever is just a stupid selfish feeling. Other people will exist instead.



It sounds like you haven't had too many close to death experiences.
Have you ever Seen the Psychedelic Being (which is the true God).


--------------------
The Day of the Lord has come like a thief in the night. -- It is there but no one knows it.

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