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OfflineUniverse Unknown
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Being comfortable with death
    #25168508 - 04/27/18 08:53 AM (3 years, 12 days ago)

I've been thinking about this after an especially strong trip that I had a few weeks ago. During the peak of the trip I was sitting on the couch and had an incredibly intense feeling of death and dissolving into nothingness, it happened multiple times over and throughout I was having open eye visuals of cells of fungi or bacteria eating remains (it felt like my remains though I did not see myself in it) and recycling my body back into nature.

It felt so peaceful and natural and profound and felt like it lasted an eternity. After I started coming down from the peak, I pondered on the idea of death and how it seemed like a totally normal thing to happen and was not scary. For a few minutes I wondered if maybe there was nothing left for me to do here in life.

It's not that I'm suicidal or depressed or looking for an escape but more like a sense of curiosity had developed in me towards what lies beyond this existence. I'm not particularly religious either but thinking about this while tripping made me feel like if I died, I would continue to exist in some form.

I'm not really sure what to make out of it.


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OnlineNortherner
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Universe Unknown] * 1
    #25168580 - 04/27/18 09:44 AM (3 years, 12 days ago)

It's part of the psychedelic experience. :heart:

With stronger psychedelics you may be sure you killed yourself.

it's the truth in the medicine.


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InvisibleInflaton
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Universe Unknown]
    #25168624 - 04/27/18 10:13 AM (3 years, 11 days ago)

Dont kid yourself. There is nothing after death. Just the people that survive you. You can perhaps say you stay alive through your descendants. But it is indeed a natural process and nothing to be afraid of. Some die, others are born. Life goes on.

I for one am totally certain there is nothing after death and I am comfortable with my own mortality.


--------------------
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Edited by Inflaton (04/27/18 10:16 AM)


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Offlinefeevers
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Inflaton]
    #25168688 - 04/27/18 10:44 AM (3 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Inflaton said:
Dont kid yourself. There is nothing after death. Just the people that survive you. You can perhaps say you stay alive through your descendants. But it is indeed a natural process and nothing to be afraid of. Some die, others are born. Life goes on.

I for one am totally certain there is nothing after death and I am comfortable with my own mortality.



Define 'after'

:smile:


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InvisibleInflaton
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: feevers]
    #25168703 - 04/27/18 10:52 AM (3 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

feevers said:
Quote:

Inflaton said:
Dont kid yourself. There is nothing after death. Just the people that survive you. You can perhaps say you stay alive through your descendants. But it is indeed a natural process and nothing to be afraid of. Some die, others are born. Life goes on.

I for one am totally certain there is nothing after death and I am comfortable with my own mortality.



Define 'after'

:smile:




I don't mean after the mushroom death, there are many things after that one! :wink:

After real death, when your body does to dust, you just don't exist anymore, same as before you were born. I never really understood why it is so difficult for people to accept this simple fact and so many stories have to be invented to go around it. I guess it comes from the small frightened child inside everyone.


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Offlinefeevers
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Inflaton]
    #25169139 - 04/27/18 02:28 PM (3 years, 11 days ago)

The only 'after' we have proof of exists in or based upon the past, the past only exists in our memory's ability to parse together information in a useful and believable way in relation to the present, all the while the present is becoming etched in our memory as 'past'. Time appears to be linear, until you throw your brain's perception(which is manufactured hallucination) out of whack, then you can realize it might not be.

Some people 'remember' that they were once Jesus Christ, and the brain activity seems no different than in 'normal' memory recall. The brain is not a reliable source of what is actually going on, it is a symbolic explanation of conscious processing in this artificially perceived physical realm. Our perceptions are not what is really going on, they just appear to be how we navigate it in the present.

Outside of that, we know nothing, and anyone's answer is 100% as credible as anyone else's.

I choose to believe, knowing full well I'm probably wrong, that the fact the brain perceives a linear time culminating in an end is in some way a mechanism for growth of a very real and possibly eternal conscious being. Momentum toward growth is begot only by the urgency caused by our transient existence here. Wishful thinking, but it gives me a reason to lead what I consider to be a fulfilling and growth-filled life. I just don't think we're equipped with the tools to solve such a complex problem of consciousness, even if we could narrow it down to a certain number or configuration of neurons, synapses, action potentials etc, and be able to recreate it onto a computer as a robot or upload our own memories to a server, that would still solve nothing.

Psychedelics are great because they can show you first hand that time can be warped, the mind can be bent, the actual hallucination, life, can be challenged at its core.


Edited by feevers (04/27/18 02:32 PM)


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InvisibleInflaton
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: feevers]
    #25169342 - 04/27/18 04:00 PM (3 years, 11 days ago)

Agreed that human mind is extremelly unreliable. Perceptions are highly subjective. No question about that.

Reproducible physical experiments are not. They are objective. That's why science WORKS. And it works ALWAYS.

In all fundamental physical laws there is no difference between past and future. They are the same. Time has no preferred direction. This surprises most people when they learn about it because for us past and future are such different concepts. The only reason we experience them so differently is very well understood. It has to do with entropy, statistics and initial conditions. It is refereed to as "the arrow of time". It is not an inherent property of the lawas of physics. It is simply an accidental consequence of the current configuration of the universe. If you want to understand it better listen to this talk for instance, this guy explains is better than I would:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DMMULrzeDNSI&ved=0ahUKEwi9r76IntvaAhUFrVkKHV5zBecQtwIINDAF&usg=AOvVaw1rzAzf4SdUKAjWl_Vtxh-c


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OfflineAvidFan
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Universe Unknown] * 1
    #25169431 - 04/27/18 04:43 PM (3 years, 11 days ago)

What is "you" anyway? It's interesting how some of the latest research is showing how bacteria not only constitute more of us than actual human cells, but can also actually influence moods and many other things in our bodies, in fact we'd be dead without many of the bacteria.

So are they you or are you they?  Certainly the atoms in your body will be recycled in some way (they are already the recycled nuclear waste of exploded stars - we are all "made of star stuff" as Carl Sagan famously said.

I don't think the "you" or "I" that we think of traditionally would survive, it is such a mess of influences from birth, genetic, familial, social.

What even constitutes "I"?  Is it your memories? Your thoughts, your feelings, your face?  They all change.

As Richard Dawkins once said,  think back to when you were  7 years old - that was you, right?  And yet not a single atom in your body is the same, it's already all been recycled.

I used to be entirely atheistic until my latest shroom journeys, but have come to believe there is something more, it's just impossible to know what it is, we can maybe only experience shadows of it.

Science is a great tool, but it is not flawless. Once upon a time science held that the earth was at the centre of the universe, that got proved wrong, and even as recently as a few years ago they thought the universe was slowing down when in fact it is speeding up, it almost seems that no matter how complete scientists think their knowledge is, there is another puzzle just around the corner.

Einstein said he refused to believe God played dice with the universe.  I think God (whatever that is, certainly not some dude with a beard!) might well actually be having a lot of fun with the whole thing.

My last trip I actually recalled being God at some point and it's to that I will go back - whatever that means, it doesn't mean the "I" that I am now will continue, maybe just that the "I" that I am now reflects some infinitesimal part of a greater whole.

Maybe. It's unknowable with the current wetware we have!

I am glad your trip has provided you with some reflection and given you some comfort, research has shown how helpful psychedelics can be for the terminally ill in allaying their fears.

Safe travels!


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Offlinefeevers
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Inflaton]
    #25169434 - 04/27/18 04:44 PM (3 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Inflaton said:
Agreed that human mind is extremelly unreliable. Perceptions are highly subjective. No question about that.

Reproducible physical experiments are not. They are objective. That's why science WORKS. And it works ALWAYS.

In all fundamental physical laws there is no difference between past and future. They are the same. Time has no preferred direction. This surprises most people when they learn about it because for us past and future are such different concepts. The only reason we experience them so differently is very well understood. It has to do with entropy, statistics and initial conditions. It is refereed to as "the arrow of time". It is not an inherent property of the lawas of physics. It is simply an accidental consequence of the current configuration of the universe. If you want to understand it better listen to this talk for instance, this guy explains is better than I would:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DMMULrzeDNSI&ved=0ahUKEwi9r76IntvaAhUFrVkKHV5zBecQtwIINDAF&usg=AOvVaw1rzAzf4SdUKAjWl_Vtxh-c




That all makes sense, and I've read/seen most of Carroll's works and talks, I just don't really know that surface-level science is all that important in questioning the origins of life and consciousness.

Science merely gives us explanations and half-answers to our physical environment, gives us enough so we're not wandering around asking "what the hell is going on here?" all day, and can actually get stuff done.

It's what goes on inside the mind, and the essence of consciousness in general that we have zero answers for, and calls into question how "real" anything else actually is. Physics and neuroscience could prove anything, and it still wouldn't be as fascinating as the mere concept of existence. There will likely never be an equation for existence, and that could be because it doesn't operate on pretenses we're familiar with or able to perceive let alone comprehend.

When we can't trust our perceptions, we're kind of just at the mercy of whatever is going on here. Any time I think I "know" something, that's a good indicator that it's time for a trip. That notion gets wiped away real fast :smile:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: feevers]
    #25169446 - 04/27/18 04:49 PM (3 years, 11 days ago)

fire or worms
both are nice as can be


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Universe Unknown] * 1
    #25169453 - 04/27/18 04:52 PM (3 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Universe Unknown said:
I've been thinking about this after an especially strong trip that I had a few weeks ago. During the peak of the trip I was sitting on the couch and had an incredibly intense feeling of death and dissolving into nothingness, it happened multiple times over and throughout I was having open eye visuals of cells of fungi or bacteria eating remains (it felt like my remains though I did not see myself in it) and recycling my body back into nature.

It felt so peaceful and natural and profound and felt like it lasted an eternity. After I started coming down from the peak, I pondered on the idea of death and how it seemed like a totally normal thing to happen and was not scary. For a few minutes I wondered if maybe there was nothing left for me to do here in life.

It's not that I'm suicidal or depressed or looking for an escape but more like a sense of curiosity had developed in me towards what lies beyond this existence. I'm not particularly religious either but thinking about this while tripping made me feel like if I died, I would continue to exist in some form.

I'm not really sure what to make out of it.




That's a pretty typical experience while tripping, actually. :awesomenod:

Where were you before you became a gamete, grew, and were born into consciousness?  After you've shuffled off the mortal coil you'll be in the same place.

As Buddhism would have it though, your birth as a human is a valuable opportunity to sort this out.  Tripping is a big help. :scaryshroom::thumbup:


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Offlinefeevers
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: AvidFan] * 1
    #25169460 - 04/27/18 04:54 PM (3 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

AvidFan said:
What is "you" anyway? It's interesting how some of the latest research is showing how bacteria not only constitute more of us than actual human cells, but can also actually influence moods and many other things in our bodies, in fact we'd be dead without many of the bacteria.

So are they you or are you they?  Certainly the atoms in your body will be recycled in some way (they are already the recycled nuclear waste of exploded stars - we are all "made of star stuff" as Carl Sagan famously said.

I don't think the "you" or "I" that we think of traditionally would survive, it is such a mess of influences from birth, genetic, familial, social.

What even constitutes "I"?  Is it your memories? Your thoughts, your feelings, your face?  They all change.

As Richard Dawkins once said,  think back to when you were  7 years old - that was you, right?  And yet not a single atom in your body is the same, it's already all been recycled.






good points.

The Dawkins quote is thrown around a lot, but most people leave out the fact that many neurons/brain cells stay with you your entire life. I define "me" as my synapses and specific brain wiring/chemistry, malleable and capable of being altered permanently with some effort. That's just surface level, and based on the current research of perception and neuroscience, this physical realm is more of graphical user interface than the code behind the program.


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OnlineNortherner
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Inflaton] * 1
    #25169591 - 04/27/18 05:45 PM (3 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Inflaton said:
Dont kid yourself. There is nothing after death. Just the people that survive you. You can perhaps say you stay alive through your descendants. But it is indeed a natural process and nothing to be afraid of. Some die, others are born. Life goes on.

I for one am totally certain there is nothing after death and I am comfortable with my own mortality.



Your pure atheism is commendable, a pure starting point without illusions, but that may change as you experience more. I don't mean that you'll find Jesus or some bullcrap, but there appears to be more than meets the eye the closer one looks at the subject

Energy cannot end, it can only change form. Physics 101. We are a point of energy, so to we cannot end, we can only change form.

I have been there when all of me is stripped away, no body, family, memory or anything that ever tied me to this "reality". Drifted through the void. Came back. It made me doubt everything, doubt this place, doubt my perception... but most of all it made me sure that everything is just a state of flux. An infinite state of flux. Not something that ends just because "I" as I perceive myself don't exist here anymore. Far from nothing after death.


--------------------
If only you could see the things he has seen, the technicolour dreams of a plastic changa bear


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InvisibleInflaton
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Northerner]
    #25169642 - 04/27/18 06:13 PM (3 years, 11 days ago)

There is nothing special with human conciousness. Animals also have it. Have you ever had a dog? Do you doubt he has conciousness? It is just a little more primitive than ours. The one of primates is almost the same as un humans. A squirrel's conciousness is even more primitive than a dog. There is a continuum. We will build machines that will also have counciousness, it will just be totally different from ours.


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InvisibleInflaton
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Inflaton]
    #25169666 - 04/27/18 06:21 PM (3 years, 11 days ago)

Not surprisingly most human's religious, spiritual and philosophical views are extremelly antropocentric. It is like the totally self-centered world view of small kids. We will outgrow it.

We are just smart machines. Evolved to roam the surface of the earth, survive and reproduce. Just like any other species. But we have tools that allow us to ask ourselves questions we are not equipped to answer. It is better to admit you dont know that to invent childish stories. There is plenty to be awed by in this world.


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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Inflaton]
    #25169833 - 04/27/18 07:32 PM (3 years, 11 days ago)

Have you ever heard a pre-pubescent child force himself laugh very hard at a dirty joke? The child cannot understand having a hard-on, or 'so this chick's on the rag...', or ejaculations, or orgasms, or anything to do with the mating dance. The child will understand all these things soon enough, but the nine year old cannot experience these things, so sexual desire is unfathomable. The kid just doesn't have the mental hardware to grasp it. Of course, he will in time.
So it is with death. It is all kinds of easy to talk about death in the abstract when you're twenty five, or even forty nine. The subject takes on a different gravity as the years pile up. You have the same lacunae about death at twenty five that the nine year old has about sex. And yeah, I know- you had that time when you flipped your bike, or fucked up doing something and came just *this* close. Sorry. Doesn't count. The memory of the trauma will fade just like the memory of childbirth fades for women. You return to the default setting. Trust me on this.
I have had one level 5 event on hallucinogens, reaching the stage where I was disembodied awareness observing Creation. It confirmed for me that there are realms of existence and consciousness that are far more vast than this which we can perceive through our five senses. There does indeed exist a meta-(more than)physical world. Consider the implications.
On the business of atheism. This is a can of worms I won't open.  I would merely ask the atheist, as well as the believer to concede that both positions are equally based in faith. No can can truly speak with authority on that which we CAN NOT know. I love the quote from Life of PI: "I choose to believe the better story."

JWM


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InvisibleInflaton
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: JWM]
    #25169962 - 04/27/18 08:24 PM (3 years, 11 days ago)

It is true what you say about death. I am certain it is difficult to face. But we will all have to do it, and right now that does not bother me. I see no use in bothering with that.

About atheism, I just make my picture of the world based on my own observations. I have no faith in stories that were invented by humans that lived thousands of years ago when people literally didnt know where the sun went at night. Moreover I can see where those stories come from, I see their appeal, which makes me see them for what they are. And I am always open to change my worldview. However if I see god, he touches me with his finger and I feel the eternal timeless existence of the metaphysical world during a mushroom trip I dont think I will change my world view. I'll just think: whoa, that was a really cool mindfuck! :shrug: :lol:

The idea of god and/or a metaphysical world is not needed to explain absolutely anything, and only muddies the waters, it raises many more questions that it answers. Very few people is asking the right questions, we dont need more distractions.


--------------------
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Offlineendogenous
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Universe Unknown] * 1
    #25170935 - 04/28/18 06:37 AM (3 years, 11 days ago)

I've seen this kind of thing before. The Entheogen (God) is dissolving the barrier between the Knowledge  that God IS the Entheogen and the illusion that there is some other God (or no God in the case of atheists).  The person misinterprets this as death of the physical body.

The Entheogen/God is "eating" (dissolving) the illusory (spiritual)
body. I.e., the illusory body is dying.

As it says in the Taittiriya Upanishad: "I am that food that eats the eater of food"


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InvisibleCitizen X
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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: endogenous]
    #25170943 - 04/28/18 06:56 AM (3 years, 11 days ago)

*it seemed like a totally normal thing to happen and was not scary

I’ve always felt this way.


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Re: Being comfortable with death [Re: Citizen X]
    #25170980 - 04/28/18 07:29 AM (3 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Citizen X said:
*it seemed like a totally normal thing to happen and was not scary

I’ve always felt this way.



I always rationalized it that way too. But when it happens, and you think... "fuck, I'm gonna die" and it's really happening, right now, that is something else. The urge to survive takes over and the flight/flight responses kick into full gear. Pure animalistic instinct that is extremely hard to control.


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