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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Democratic presidential hopeful plans to run on universal basic income [Re: qman]
    #25163334 - 04/24/18 09:00 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

krypto2000 said:
Quote:

qman said:
What happens when you flood the labor market with "free college education" recipients? :popcorn:




Crime rates drop along with income inequality, and GDP goes up while the technology sector grows? :shrug:

What do you think happens, structural engineers make minimum wage and become eligible for food stamps?




Does more structural engineers make for more engineering projects?  No.

What happens when more structural engineers chase a fixed amount of employment in that sector? Wages go lower.

You have heard of the law of supply and demand?

If having more educated people guaranteed economic prosperity the world would be a very simple place, that's obviously not the case.




You're right, but you're only seeing a small part of what I see as the bigger picture. Right now the world is run by a small group of wealthy elite. They have all the labor they need, they can get everything they want done so as far as they're concerned more educated individuals not working for them is more potential competition.

However, and you are right, wages likely drop in this scenario, but it's only going to drop so far. Many of those engineers, or other higher educated and reasonably well paid individuals, would go on to create their own businesses; there would be more innovation and more competition. If you couple that with a basic income (and I'm not saying it's feasible atm) then people would only work if they felt a passion to do so. They're not going to sit and watch Maury all day without a job though, they will work on things they care about; whether they formally have a business or not for many it will lead to one.

Besides that even if the market is flooded with every sort of skill why is that even a bad thing? What do you think is better, someone going to school to learn something that interests them, whether they will ever excel in it as a career or not, or not go to school and either work a lowly job they have no interest in or even worse (as far as society is concerned) not work a job at all and be a bum/criminal? I mean per your logic why even send people to high school if all they're ever going to do is work at mcdonalds? Why not just go from 6th grade to McCollege?

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Democratic presidential hopeful plans to run on universal basic income [Re: qman]
    #25163341 - 04/24/18 09:05 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

krypto2000 said:
Quote:

qman said:
What happens when you flood the labor market with "free college education" recipients? :popcorn:




Crime rates drop along with income inequality, and GDP goes up while the technology sector grows? :shrug:

What do you think happens, structural engineers make minimum wage and become eligible for food stamps?




Does more structural engineers make for more engineering projects?  No.



Does more engineering projects make for more structural engineers?  Yes.

Time for more infrastructure spending.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Democratic presidential hopeful plans to run on universal basic income [Re: qman]
    #25164278 - 04/25/18 10:42 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

>You have heard of the law of supply and demand?

They don't believe in it around here. They think that law was repealed by obama. Just ask them if loads of immigrants affect the wages paid and see what they tell you


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Democratic presidential hopeful plans to run on universal basic income [Re: Stonehenge] * 1
    #25164324 - 04/25/18 11:07 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Federal works programs create demand as does an increase in the supply of job creators. There are better ways to increase demand than deporting a small portion of your supply. :rolleyes:

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Offlineqman
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Re: Democratic presidential hopeful plans to run on universal basic income [Re: Stonehenge]
    #25164326 - 04/25/18 11:08 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

https://www.newsclick.in/world-bank-abolish-minimum-wage-other-labour-laws

Here's the plan folks, slave labor wages and then praying insolvent governments will make up the difference with free handouts. Tent cities across the globe!

Must have more legal and illegal immigration into the US, not enough workers to meet demand. :flowstone:

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Invisiblerelic
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Re: Democratic presidential hopeful plans to run on universal basic income [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25164403 - 04/25/18 12:03 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:

It really sucks that it can't be afforded by the US because you have a serious poverty and crime problem. You would save a fortune in policing and justice if people had money to afford a life instead of being forced into misery.




and therein lies the rub.  the criminal justice system of the united states is a big, big business that needs ever more consumers (read: criminals) to sustain their bloated, wasteful, militant, and pilfering injustice system.

take the very small example of the way violations of alcohol laws are treated in a state like the commonwealth of VA.  whether you're falling down drunk and run over a grandmother on your mountain bike or if you've just cracked your first beer while riding in the back seat of a car operated by a sober driver who is obeying all traffic laws, get caught and you're gonna be fucked to the tune of around $5K to $15K in legal fees alone...all the while being required to complete the VASAP program, probably subject to periodic drug and alcohol testing, are often required to have an ignition interlock switch installed in your vehicle (and MUST have one if convicted of 1st offense dui and need a restricted license to drive to work to pay for all this shit), will have your license suspended for a year unless you get an enlil class attorney, face jail time on a first offense of up to one year, fines up to $2,500, and the list goes on.

all of that is at the convict's expense and adds up to big money for this one slice of the big business pie that is our justice system.  the ones making money off of this system don't want reduced policing or reduced anything and in fact they rely on a steady or increasing stream of convicts to sustain them and their systems, businesses, and agencies.

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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Democratic presidential hopeful plans to run on universal basic income [Re: relic]
    #25165060 - 04/25/18 05:20 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Its true, you can be arrested for drunk driving even if you were not driving. They rarely do it but I met a guy who got 3 months for it. He was mouthing off to the cop or would not have had any problem.

Public works programs? Sounds like make work which costs money and produces little. Where is the money going to come to pay for that?


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Offlineqman
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Re: Democratic presidential hopeful plans to run on universal basic income [Re: krypto2000]
    #25165187 - 04/25/18 06:03 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
Federal works programs create demand as does an increase in the supply of job creators. There are better ways to increase demand than deporting a small portion of your supply. :rolleyes:




"Federal works programs create demand"

Sometimes at the expense of other demand.

"as does an increase in the supply of job creators"

I don't even know what that means.

"There are better ways to increase demand (for labor)"

Which are what exactly?

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Democratic presidential hopeful plans to run on universal basic income [Re: qman]
    #25165218 - 04/25/18 06:15 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
"Federal works programs create demand"

Sometimes at the expense of other demand.



Can you provide an example?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Offlineqman
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Re: Democratic presidential hopeful plans to run on universal basic income [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25165246 - 04/25/18 06:27 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
"Federal works programs create demand"

Sometimes at the expense of other demand.



Can you provide an example?




Well, if you tax or borrow money for a "Federal works program", doesn't it potentially come at the expense of another to way of allocate the resource?

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Democratic presidential hopeful plans to run on universal basic income [Re: qman]
    #25165279 - 04/25/18 06:42 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
"Federal works programs create demand"

Sometimes at the expense of other demand.



Can you provide an example?




Well, if you tax or borrow money for a "Federal works program", doesn't it potentially come at the expense of another to way of allocate the resource?



I guess it depends on who pays the tax.  If you tax the poor, then yes.  If you tax the rich with money they wouldn't have spent in the economy, then no.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Offlinekoods
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Re: Democratic presidential hopeful plans to run on universal basic income [Re: Stonehenge]
    #25165389 - 04/25/18 07:33 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Another idiotic pipe dream that won't gain traction even among dems. That and ubi are pie in the sky nonsense we can't afford. Where is sanders going to find those jobs? They don't exist or the ones that do have lots of applicants.

Wait now, if unemployment really is around 4% like the far left fervently believes, why would we even need this? With that low unemployment, wages would be rising and companies beating the bushes for applicants. They have been playing make believe with fake numbers, now sanders wants to address the actual situation but with imaginary funds.

Sanders seems like a nice guy but too much of a kook. Him caving in to hill and not raising a peep when he was cheated shows what a cuck he is.




They? Your guy now fervently embraces the jobs data.

The one of the reasons we aren't seeing significant rising wages despite high employment is that human labor is becoming obsolete. Instead of competing for labor, which would increase wages, companies are automating. They are meeting their labor shortages with investments in automation. This is likely the last economic cycle we will see where economic prosperity will be tied to job growth. We need to figure out how an increasingly obsolete working class will still benefit in an increasingly automated work place.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Democratic presidential hopeful plans to run on universal basic income [Re: Stonehenge]
    #25165422 - 04/25/18 07:49 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

>Well, if you tax or borrow money for a "Federal works program", doesn't it potentially come at the expense of another to way of allocate the resource?

Of course it does, its the usual far left voodoo economics which never works. How do you produce more job creators indeed? Not by jacking taxes way up on high earners, but thats what the left wants.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Offlinekoods
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Re: Democratic presidential hopeful plans to run on universal basic income [Re: koods] * 1
    #25165427 - 04/25/18 07:51 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

The owners and investors of us factories are making more money than ever because they need fewer and fewer employees to produce more and more.

Our current economic system will collapse unless we address this problem. Our current president blames immigrants, bad trade deals and Chinese sweat shops. Has he ever talked about the threat that automation poses to the American worker? No. We are fucking doomed without honest leadership.

People who are opposed to redistribution of wealth need to ask themselves a question: how do you expect to make a living when a robot can do your job better at a fraction of the cost? That future is coming. It will be particular trades at first. First the truck drivers, tax drivers. Retail jobs will vanish. Lab workers. Pharmacists. Lawyers. Healthcare support workers. It's fucking scary.




--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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InvisibleMr. Bojangles
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Re: Democratic presidential hopeful plans to run on universal basic income [Re: qman]
    #25165527 - 04/25/18 08:30 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Mr. Bojangles said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
What you are proposing would lead to hyperinflation.  And a value added tax is regressive.




I know...printing more money leads to hyperinflation.  That is an easy way to get to that conclusion, but I believe it involves a little more. 

First -- We have investors; typically countries that have experienced hyperinflationary events in the past century experienced a dearth of investment.  It's usually what leads governments to start cranking out money like crazy.  Like I said, Treasuries are the thing to have in your portfolio for many governments, institutions, and individuals.  Our money is backed by the sale of Treasuries and, at least currently, we don't create more money supply without corresponding sales of Treasuries. 

Second -- Very extreme economic conditions usually lead to hyperinflation, at least with precedents in the current industrial age.  Destruction of infrastructure, no production, massive political rifts, war, a 180 in economic fortunes...basically less goods and more money, but the thing that leads to less goods is usually quite serious.  Basically there needs to be a spark of some sort, and history has shown its usually a big spark. 

Now it is perfectly plausible that foreign investment can completely leave the country; that coupled with something fucked like the aftershocks of another recession, depression, or war that hits close to home could lead us into a potential hyperinflationary scenario.  With a strong economy, Fed decisions that are in line with whatever policy that is adopted, and a country that is usually untouched by catastrophic homeland war, this seems unlikely.  Nuclear war is certainly hanging over the world...so I guess that could be the "spark" :cool:





The Fed bought over $4.5 trillion of T-bonds and mortgage debt with printed money, yet the velocity of money dropped even lower, why?  Because almost all of that money never entered Main Street and landed on Wall Street.

The world's central banks printed over $20 trillion the last 10 years and still no real inflation. All of that money went into financial assets held by very few hands, just like they intended.

If the Fed instead bought $4.5 trillion of student, credit card, auto and consumer debt with printed money we would have seen massive inflation. That's why they would never do that or UBI.




I wouldn't say that we didn't have inflation.  The fact that the financial sector had absorbed most of that kept inflation at bay for most of main street...but isn't wall street inflated right now? 

It is a bit of a reach to say all the money central banks print goes to financial assets.  A fairly large portion, perhaps.  "Printed" money is debt.  You ask for a loan, the Fed just printed that money for you.


--------------------
"It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong."

Francois-Marie Arouet

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Offlineqman
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Re: Democratic presidential hopeful plans to run on universal basic income [Re: koods]
    #25165533 - 04/25/18 08:32 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
The owners and investors of us factories are making more money than ever because they need fewer and fewer employees to produce more and more.

Our current economic system will collapse unless we address this problem. Our current president blames immigrants, bad trade deals and Chinese sweat shops. Has he ever talked about the threat that automation poses to the American worker? No. We are fucking doomed without honest leadership.

People who are opposed to redistribution of wealth need to ask themselves a question: how do you expect to make a living when a robot can do your job better at a fraction of the cost? That future is coming. It will be particular trades at first. First the truck drivers, tax drivers. Retail jobs will vanish. Lab workers. Pharmacists. Lawyers. Healthcare support workers. It's fucking scary.




So when is any politician going to discuss this issue?  The people that own our politicians do NOT want this subject matter to go into political debate.

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InvisibleMr. Bojangles
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Re: Democratic presidential hopeful plans to run on universal basic income [Re: koods]
    #25165541 - 04/25/18 08:38 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:[/]
People who are opposed to redistribution of wealth need to ask themselves a question: how do you expect to make a living when a robot can do your job better at a fraction of the cost? That future is coming. It will be particular trades at first. First the truck drivers, tax drivers. Retail jobs will vanish. Lab workers. Pharmacists. Lawyers. Healthcare support workers. It's fucking scary.





We can't see the future; automation and, to a greater extent, AI may create new industries.  If so, hopefully they are industries that massive amounts of people can partake in.  If not and robots can really do everything, it probably won't be until the service jobs start to disappear before the public and governments react.  But that's me trying to predict the future :facepalm:


--------------------
"It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong."

Francois-Marie Arouet

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InvisibleMagicMush123
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Re: Democratic presidential hopeful plans to run on universal basic income [Re: koods]
    #25165644 - 04/25/18 09:18 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
The owners and investors of us factories are making more money than ever because they need fewer and fewer employees to produce more and more.

Our current economic system will collapse unless we address this problem. Our current president blames immigrants, bad trade deals and Chinese sweat shops. Has he ever talked about the threat that automation poses to the American worker? No. We are fucking doomed without honest leadership.

People who are opposed to redistribution of wealth need to ask themselves a question: how do you expect to make a living when a robot can do your job better at a fraction of the cost? That future is coming. It will be particular trades at first. First the truck drivers, tax drivers. Retail jobs will vanish. Lab workers. Pharmacists. Lawyers. Healthcare support workers. It's fucking scary.






Even if automated, it would still create direct and indirect jobs if the company is on us soil. Its not like there would be factories with no one working in them at all

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Offlinekoods
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Re: Democratic presidential hopeful plans to run on universal basic income [Re: MagicMush123]
    #25165697 - 04/25/18 09:39 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Is it only an issue if ALL the jobs are gone?  What about half the jobs? What about a quarter? Do you think our economic system can tolerate 25% unemployment?


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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InvisibleMagicMush123
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Re: Democratic presidential hopeful plans to run on universal basic income [Re: koods]
    #25165709 - 04/25/18 09:44 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Is it only an issue if ALL the jobs are gone?  What about half the jobs? What about a quarter? Do you think our economic system can tolerate 25% unemployment?



No. Just saying a fully automated factory in the usa would be providing more jobs than an off shore factory could.
How can we tackle this problem koods? Say we have 25-50% of jobs being terminated. Would it be possible to implement 4 hour work days?  So you would have 2 people now doing one job?
We seem to be stuck on this backwards system of trying to get one guy to do as much work as possible for the lowest pay possible. Eventually we will have to move away from that system and see how many people we can employ

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