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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Human Rights Violations - Russia and the United States
    #25158937 - 04/22/18 11:11 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

In another thread, Ed Schulz stated that "every superpower on the globe has a very poor record on human rights" to which another poster responded "I believe that Russia has a significantly worse humans rights issue than the US."

I'd like to investigate this further with anyone interested to determine whether both sides are about equally bad, or if one side is indeed far worse than the other.

Let's compare the two countries post 2000; please don't bring up Stalin because we know Stalin was brutal, and that was a LONG time ago before Russia turned capitalist.

Can anyone bring up an example of where they believe Russia is worse than the US on human rights?  I'm interested to see if I'll learn something here, or the other way around... (please bring up specific examples; preferably things we know to be true, rather than conspiracy theories).


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Human Rights Violations - Russia and the United States [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25159086 - 04/23/18 01:11 AM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Russia is much much worse for LGBT rights. The relatively recent passage of the Russian federal law "for the Purpose of Protecting Children from Information Advocating for a Denial of Traditional Family Values" provides an example of this.

The ability to criticize the State and its institutions is much more repressed in Russia. Pussy Riot have done an unfortunately excellent job in revealing this.

Also, the Russian Federal Security Service is presently kidnapping and torturing anarchist and antifascist activists - which is a step above the repression that is generally served up by the FBI and other American law-enforcement.


Really, both countries are complicit in horrible human rights violations and I see no reason why one being less bad should provide any sort of redemption.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Human Rights Violations - Russia and the United States [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #25159138 - 04/23/18 01:51 AM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Russia is much much worse for LGBT rights. The relatively recent passage of the Russian federal law "for the Purpose of Protecting Children from Information Advocating for a Denial of Traditional Family Values" provides an example of this.



It's probably true that Russia wants to protect its children from 'anti-family' values, however, gays in Russia are free to be gay, provided they don't push their values onto their children.  We have a good number of similar restrictions here in the US.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
The ability to criticize the State and its institutions is much more repressed in Russia. Pussy Riot have done an unfortunately excellent job in revealing this.



I disagree.  You can't just go into a private church and start playing anti-religious heavy metal music.  Show me where you can do that in an American church.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Also, the Russian Federal Security Service is presently kidnapping and torturing anarchist and antifascist activists - which is a step above the repression that is generally served up by the FBI and other American law-enforcement.



Is it worse?  The US has documented cases of torture as well.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Really, both countries are complicit in horrible human rights violations and I see no reason why one being less bad should provide any sort of redemption.



I agree.  It's just that Kryptos believes one is less bad, so that's the discussion I want to have.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Human Rights Violations - Russia and the United States [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25159349 - 04/23/18 06:51 AM (5 years, 11 months ago)


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Re: Human Rights Violations - Russia and the United States [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25159367 - 04/23/18 07:11 AM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Well Chechnya is part of Russia and they have gay concentration camps

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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Human Rights Violations - Russia and the United States [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25159486 - 04/23/18 08:54 AM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Russia is much much worse for LGBT rights. The relatively recent passage of the Russian federal law "for the Purpose of Protecting Children from Information Advocating for a Denial of Traditional Family Values" provides an example of this.



It's probably true that Russia wants to protect its children from 'anti-family' values, however, gays in Russia are free to be gay, provided they don't push their values onto their children.  We have a good number of similar restrictions here in the US.




You're comparing a small backwoods conservative town in the US to Russian Federal law though, apples and oranges.

Quote:


Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
The ability to criticize the State and its institutions is much more repressed in Russia. Pussy Riot have done an unfortunately excellent job in revealing this.



I disagree.  You can't just go into a private church and start playing anti-religious heavy metal music.  Show me where you can do that in an American church.




They were arrested and sentenced to years in prison for protesting. In the US you would get charged with trespassing or something at worse and have little to no jail time, much less multiple years.

Quote:


Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Also, the Russian Federal Security Service is presently kidnapping and torturing anarchist and antifascist activists - which is a step above the repression that is generally served up by the FBI and other American law-enforcement.



Is it worse?  The US has documented cases of torture as well.




Again, apples and oranges. Not that one is okay, but kidnapping and torturing foreign "enemy combatants (w/e that means)" is not the same as kidnapping and torturing domestic citizens who are essentially just protestors.

Quote:


Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Really, both countries are complicit in horrible human rights violations and I see no reason why one being less bad should provide any sort of redemption.



I agree.  It's just that Kryptos believes one is less bad, so that's the discussion I want to have.







I agree with this too, I just do not think the US is as bad as Russia. I am not defending the US at all and the whole reason I mentioned this was because that guy that spurred the discussion would not directly address his own comment and acknowledge that Russia is in any way worse. Even if it were not worse he could have said he was mistaken, he changed his mind, whatever, but he brushed it off and deflected instead of answering the question at face value.

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OnlineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Human Rights Violations - Russia and the United States [Re: MagicMush123]
    #25159579 - 04/23/18 10:00 AM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Well Chechnya is part of Russia and they have gay concentration camps




Chechnya is vehemently opposed to being part of Russia. But yeah, the anti lbgtq fervor in and around Russia is abhorrent.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Human Rights Violations - Russia and the United States [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25159582 - 04/23/18 10:01 AM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Remember, I'm not arguing that the USA is free of the following human rights violations, nor am I arguing that Russia is all-around worse than the USA; I completely agree with the quote in the OP. Still, you asked for examples where Russia is doing worse than the USA, and I still remain convinced of those I provided: treatment of the LGBT population, of State criticism, and of anarchists.


Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
It's probably true that Russia wants to protect its children from 'anti-family' values, however, gays in Russia are free to be gay, provided they don't push their values onto their children.  We have a good number of similar restrictions here in the US.



Public statements as innocuous as "being gay and loving gays is normal; beating gays and killing gays is criminal,” have been targeted by this legislation - you would not face any legal consequences for a similar statement in the USA; although you could still have social repercussions depending on the crowd you hang with. Russia is worse than the USA when it comes to human rights and their LGBT population - a town refusing to permit a pride parade is bad, but State repression of speech is much worse.


Quote:

I disagree.  You can't just go into a private church and start playing anti-religious heavy metal music.  Show me where you can do that in an American church.



Sure, but would you be charged with "premeditated hooliganism performed by an organized group of people motivated by religious hatred or hostility," and sentenced to two years imprisonment? Would your music videos be banned using anti-extremism legislation? Pussy Riot was a well-known example, but it is not the only instance of artistic repression in Russia. Being a journalist isn't much better. Russia is worse than the USA when it comes to repressing criticism of State institutions.


Quote:

Is it worse?  The US has documented cases of torture as well.



I am referring strictly to the treatment of anarchists and antifascists here. Despite the USA's recorded use of torture, no anarchists are currently being hung upside down and electrocuted there. This is currently happening in Russia. Anarchists in the USA face grand jury summons, denial of bail, and conspiracy charges - anarchists in Russia are being tortured into false confessions.


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InvisibleMagicMush123
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Re: Human Rights Violations - Russia and the United States [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #25159603 - 04/23/18 10:12 AM (5 years, 11 months ago)


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OnlineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Human Rights Violations - Russia and the United States [Re: MagicMush123]
    #25159747 - 04/23/18 11:34 AM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Corruption is much more brazen in Russia. Putin is a piece of shit.


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Re: Human Rights Violations - Russia and the United States [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #25159784 - 04/23/18 11:52 AM (5 years, 11 months ago)

You can also legally beat the shit out of your wife and kids in Russia now.


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Re: Human Rights Violations - Russia and the United States [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25159785 - 04/23/18 11:53 AM (5 years, 11 months ago)

they are both God awful.  But im glad you are questioning this and bringing this to light.  So many of the wars started by the US are done so claiming its over "human rights" but the reality is far from the truth.  Wars are started over money.  It is economic, pure and simple.  Millions are dying in africa and around the world, but they dont have the oil and resources to steal so who cares.


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Re: Human Rights Violations - Russia and the United States [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #25159790 - 04/23/18 11:57 AM (5 years, 11 months ago)

russia is very family oriented.  They care about their children.  its the first thing they think about when everything goes to hell in a handbasket.


it is illegal to propagandize gay sex, unlike here where its made to be a political issue.  made to look normal, and shoved down peoples throats till they accept it as normal. 
but you can be gay, they dont care.  they just dont want it forced down their childrens throats and want to protect them, and that is understandable.


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welcome to my world http://www.shroomery.org/forums/postlist.php/Board/326

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Re: Human Rights Violations - Russia and the United States [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #25159819 - 04/23/18 12:13 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Corruption is much more brazen in Russia. Putin is a piece of shit.




Then why are Trump and Putin such great friends, that doesn't make sense. :cookiemonster:

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OnlineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Human Rights Violations - Russia and the United States [Re: qman]
    #25159835 - 04/23/18 12:21 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Corruption is much more brazen in Russia. Putin is a piece of shit.




Then why are Trump and Putin such great friends, that doesn't make sense. :cookiemonster:




Because neither really gives a fuck about nationalism, or how they appear to foreigners.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Human Rights Violations - Russia and the United States [Re: krypto2000]
    #25160218 - 04/23/18 03:28 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Russia is much much worse for LGBT rights. The relatively recent passage of the Russian federal law "for the Purpose of Protecting Children from Information Advocating for a Denial of Traditional Family Values" provides an example of this.



It's probably true that Russia wants to protect its children from 'anti-family' values, however, gays in Russia are free to be gay, provided they don't push their values onto their children.  We have a good number of similar restrictions here in the US.



You're comparing a small backwoods conservative town in the US to Russian Federal law though, apples and oranges.



I agree with this part.  Russia isn't as LGBT friendly as the West.

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
The ability to criticize the State and its institutions is much more repressed in Russia. Pussy Riot have done an unfortunately excellent job in revealing this.



I disagree.  You can't just go into a private church and start playing anti-religious heavy metal music.  Show me where you can do that in an American church.



They were arrested and sentenced to years in prison for protesting. In the US you would get charged with trespassing or something at worse and have little to no jail time, much less multiple years.



No, they were NOT arrested for protesting, that's western propaganda.  They were arresting for trespassing into a private church.  The penalty in the US for trespassing can be 8 years in prison and / or fines up to $100,000.  So we're no better in this regard.

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
The US has documented cases of torture as well.



Again, apples and oranges. Not that one is okay, but kidnapping and torturing foreign "enemy combatants (w/e that means)" is not the same as kidnapping and torturing domestic citizens who are essentially just protestors.



They were NOT arrested for "protesting".  They were arrested for planning to set off bombs during the elections and the FIFA World Cup.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Human Rights Violations - Russia and the United States [Re: mycoprog]
    #25160231 - 04/23/18 03:37 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

mycoprog said:
You can also legally beat the shit out of your wife and kids in Russia now.



No, you cannot.  A stupid new law pushed by the Orthodox church in Russia says you can slap your spouse if it's light enough so that no injury is caused.  Stupid law, I agree, but we have a lot of stupid religious laws (which I'll discuss soon).


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Human Rights Violations - Russia and the United States [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25160247 - 04/23/18 03:47 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

yes. you can.

https://themoscowtimes.com/articles/nine-months-on-russian-women-grapple-with-new-domestic-violence-laws-59686


I think you can do more than a 'light slap'

I particularly like where it says you can beat them 'once a year' without having to worry about criminal charges.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Human Rights Violations - Russia and the United States [Re: mycoprog]
    #25160286 - 04/23/18 04:10 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

mycoprog said:
yes. you can.

https://themoscowtimes.com/articles/nine-months-on-russian-women-grapple-with-new-domestic-violence-laws-59686


I think you can do more than a 'light slap'

I particularly like where it says you can beat them 'once a year' without having to worry about criminal charges.



Do you mean this part?
Quote:

Under the new regulations, first-time offenders can be handed a fine of 30,000 rubles, detained for up to 15 days or made to do community service. Criminal charges are only brought against offenders if beatings take place more than once a year.




--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Invisiblemycoprog
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Re: Human Rights Violations - Russia and the United States [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25160356 - 04/23/18 04:46 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

lol. yep.

I also read that often "some women are being forced to pay the fines handed down to their abusers, with unpaid fines often taken from shared bank accounts."


Check out the documentary "Russia's War on Women".

pretty interesting.


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