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ergot fear from rye berry spawn bag
    #25145322 -

Post deleted by mother fungus

Edited by mother fungus (04/23/18 07:27 AM)

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Re: ergot fear from rye berry B+ cultivation/spawn bag [Re: mother fungus]
    #25145363 -

Do you actually see any suspected ergot?


--------------------
"That you are here—that life exists, and identity;
That the powerful play goes on, and you will contribute a verse.”
― Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass
:acidfire::tmckenna:

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Re: ergot fear from rye berry B+ cultivation/spawn bag [Re: The Mycologist]
    #25145380 -

Ergot looks like little rat craps. Takes a lot to be poisoned. From what I have heard it takes long term ingestion to develop health concerns. Also speculatively it could bump the potency as amines are easily converted. Also speculatively yield may be diminished due the the grain being previously consumed by a mold. What you're  after is a generally a primary saprophyte not usually a secondary or successive saprophyte... it likes to be the first to eat...


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Tandem bicycles are designed for two riders. Do it together.

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Re: ergot fear from rye berry B+ cultivation/spawn bag [Re: mother fungus]
    #25145388 -

mother fungus said:
Hi, I've scoured through forums and just cant seem to find anything that makes me rest easy. I did find one person that said they bought rye berries (25 lb bag) and that there were loads of ergot in it., which did not help with my concerns at all. My main concern...could there be ergot sclerotia in this organic rye that was used to make spawn bags? If that is a possibility does pressure cooking inactivate the ergot alkaloids that are dangerous?(can a definitive source be cited) If not, how do we know that the mushrooms cultivated aren't "soaking" up these alkaloids that may or may not be water soluble, and potentially causing poisoning/harm? I have mild obsessive compulsive disorder and just don't want to mess with anything too dangerous which is why I've always chosen BRF cakes in the past (less likely to grow on rice). But so many people use rye, I'm sure its fine. I just can't seem to find a solid answer anywhere. If only I had the email address of a mycologist or organic chemist. I assume I'm doing a lot of worrying for nothing, but I would love to hear if you know anything about this. Also, if there is infected rye (via ergot) then is there an inhalation concern, as I am doing spawn bags that have an air filter for proper gas exchange, so it is also a lot less enclosed than a jar. Please only answer with some scientific backup or real experiences. This is my first posting and I apologize if it is in the wrong forum.


If it's a worry for you, you could get rye berries meant for eating.

I go to a health foods store to get mine. I doubt it would have any ergot if it's meant for consumption


--------------------
If you need any help achieving proper field capacity, please check out this video. I hope it helps you guys out!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HskufFlXEo4

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25087128/page/1

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Re: ergot fear from rye berry spawn bag [Re: Neutrino]
    #25145410 -

Post deleted by mother fungus



--------------------
Unless you learn to face your own shadows, you will continue to see them in others, because the world outside of you, is only a reflection of the world inside of you.

Anything mentioned under my account should be acknowledged as purely hypothetical in nature and it should be understood that no mentioned action has occurred, or ever will.

Edited by mother fungus (04/24/18 04:20 PM)

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Re: ergot fear from rye berry spawn bag [Re: The Mycologist]
    #25145430 -

The Mycologist said:
Do you actually see any suspected ergot?


Not per say, though there are questionable berries. Im sure at this point I'm just paranoid. If it were in there, in small amounts, would it begin to multiply, say the way many other contams do?


--------------------
Unless you learn to face your own shadows, you will continue to see them in others, because the world outside of you, is only a reflection of the world inside of you.

Anything mentioned under my account should be acknowledged as purely hypothetical in nature and it should be understood that no mentioned action has occurred, or ever will.

Edited by mother fungus (04/24/18 04:21 PM)

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Re: ergot fear from rye berry B+ cultivation/spawn bag [Re: mother fungus]
    #25145441 -

Most fungi I have met have been very talented when it comes to rearranging mollecular structure. Convincing a colony of working towards your specific goal is a task indeed. Can they? Probably most likely... will they? How would you even know? Gas chromatography? Atomic lidar?

There is more than one way to linearly transfer gene clusters muwahahaha!


--------------------
Tandem bicycles are designed for two riders. Do it together.

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Re: ergot fear from rye berry B+ cultivation/spawn bag [Re: mother fungus] * 1
    #25145457 -

mother fungus said:
The Mycologist said:
Do you actually see any suspected ergot?


Not per say, though there are questionable berries. Im sure at this point I'm just paranoid. If it were in there, in small amounts, would it begin to multiply, say the way many other contams do?


No. In the conditions it needs to grow/multiply, your rye would sprout or rot. Ergot WILL die in the pc. In nature ergot drops to the ground and goes dormant through winter. Then it affects the new sprouting grass the next year. If it is in there it is dormant until you "plant" the seeds or get them wet.

Here is an interesting link
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21304672/fpart/1/vc/1


--------------------
Tandem bicycles are designed for two riders. Do it together.

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Re: ergot fear from rye berry spawn bag [Re: Neutrino]
    #25145464 -

Neutrino said:
Most fungi I have met have been very talented when it comes to rearranging mollecular structure. Convincing a colony of working towards your specific goal is a task indeed. Can they? Probably most likely... will they? How would you even know? Gas chromatography? Atomic lidar?

There is more than one way to linearly transfer gene clusters muwahahaha!


Interesting indeed!! Thanks for your speculation, and it's a definite relief to know that it is killed by the PC.


--------------------
Unless you learn to face your own shadows, you will continue to see them in others, because the world outside of you, is only a reflection of the world inside of you.

Anything mentioned under my account should be acknowledged as purely hypothetical in nature and it should be understood that no mentioned action has occurred, or ever will.

Edited by mother fungus (04/24/18 04:33 PM)

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Re: ergot fear from rye berry B+ cultivation/spawn bag [Re: mother fungus]
    #25146188 -

All life on earth is killed by the pc. Except maybe those tardigrades lol.


--------------------
"That you are here—that life exists, and identity;
That the powerful play goes on, and you will contribute a verse.”
― Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass
:acidfire::tmckenna:

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Re: ergot fear from rye berry B+ cultivation/spawn bag [Re: The Mycologist]
    #25146205 -

If anyone happens to manage growing an ergot culture they should get creative. Certainly not something to be frustrated with. That said PC your grains and you're clean


--------------------
Never give up, never surrender.

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Re: ergot fear from rye berry spawn bag [Re: The Mycologist]
    #25147517 -

The Mycologist said:
All life on earth is killed by the pc. Except maybe those tardigrades lol.


I read in one of Roger Rabbit's notes that if the grain was truly sterilized it would have to be in the pressure cooker until the grains were mush.

"STERILIZATION JARS - Total sterilization would take at least 24 hours in the PC and your grains would come
out as a sticky mush. The one to two hours we use for 'sterilization' gives us a window of opportunity to get the
jars colonized before the contaminants that survived the pressure cooker can get a foothold. Don't wait three
days. Instead, if you're having contamination problems, simply cook up a few extra jars and always keep a
blank or two at each step that you don't inoculate. If you do a grain to grain transfer, keep one jar back that
you don't use for g2g. If you experience contaminants and your blanks are contaminant free, the problem was
in your sterile technique. If both the blank and the inoculated jar contaminate, the problem was in your
sterilization process. By using blanks at every step, you can always narrow down the problem to exactly the
step you went haywire on. Once you get your procedures down pat, you won't need to use blanks"

So could it still live? I know I know, I'm overthinking this.


--------------------
Unless you learn to face your own shadows, you will continue to see them in others, because the world outside of you, is only a reflection of the world inside of you.

Anything mentioned under my account should be acknowledged as purely hypothetical in nature and it should be understood that no mentioned action has occurred, or ever will.

Edited by mother fungus (04/24/18 04:28 PM)

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Re: ergot fear from rye berry B+ cultivation/spawn bag [Re: mother fungus]
    #25147538 -

This fear is ridiculous


--------------------
Everything you need in one spot.

My Q&A thread. Ask me questions here rather than in Private Message
Bod's chat thread

5g a day keeps the 5g away

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Re: ergot fear from rye berry B+ cultivation/spawn bag [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25147661 -

How easy/likely is rye to contract ergot? If I grow my own rye, what are the odds I could manage to acquire a culture?


--------------------
Never give up, never surrender.

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Re: ergot fear from rye berry B+ cultivation/spawn bag [Re: Failboat]
    #25147689 -

The sclerotia grows on living rye. The mycelium may grow on rye grains. People have tried to cultivate it on purpose and fail.


--------------------
Everything you need in one spot.

My Q&A thread. Ask me questions here rather than in Private Message
Bod's chat thread

5g a day keeps the 5g away

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Re: ergot fear from rye berry B+ cultivation/spawn bag [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25147793 -

Right on, I figure if i grow about an acre of rye for brewing/mycology eventually I would come across it.


--------------------
Never give up, never surrender.

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Re: ergot fear from rye berry spawn bag [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25147908 -

bodhisatta said:
This fear is ridiculous


Oh good. I assume you have solid facts to back up the impossibility of it occurring then? Scientific literature is usually the best way to stop an overactive mind like mine. If you know those facts I'd appreciate hearing them :smile:. There is a story online of a man contracting it (ergotism), albeit, by eating a few suspicious pieces during a mycology project, as a mycologist. I dont think he had PC'd yet, and ended up being put in jail for 4 days for irrational behavior at a super market, or something like that. Happened in 2008. The rye berries were from a health food store in california. link if you're interested.

https://books.google.com/books?id=DS7Okwr2iqgC&pg=PA99&lpg=PA99&dq=ergot+in+my+organic+rye+grain&source=bl&ots=qYJr0agAL9&sig=2ZjIti59KumGgD1Q_T93tbiwL_8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwim8rrM9cHaAhUJ9IMKHXsGDDQ4ChDoAQhMMAY#v=onepage&q=ergot%20in%20my%20organic%20rye%20grain&f=false


--------------------
Unless you learn to face your own shadows, you will continue to see them in others, because the world outside of you, is only a reflection of the world inside of you.

Anything mentioned under my account should be acknowledged as purely hypothetical in nature and it should be understood that no mentioned action has occurred, or ever will.

Edited by mother fungus (04/24/18 04:29 PM)

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Re: ergot fear from rye berry B+ cultivation/spawn bag [Re: mother fungus]
    #25147951 -

Not to sound like a dick but if I put a research paper in front of you you would probably have a hard time reading it. You would have looked up this question yourself or found that relevant article if article researching was your forte.
Not that there would be an article that would support my opinion anyway. Most articles focus on very specific things, there's no meta study about trying to grow ergot accidentally doing mycology projects tho.

What's very suspicious about that link you posted is that they wont give any information about the incident. "omitted to prevent embarrass" and no link to the report of the incident they're using as evidence. Also the victim happened to be a chemist. Etc... Fishy is usually fishy


--------------------
Everything you need in one spot.

My Q&A thread. Ask me questions here rather than in Private Message
Bod's chat thread

5g a day keeps the 5g away

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: ergot fear from rye berry B+ cultivation/spawn bag [Re: The Mycologist] * 1
    #25148053 -

The Mycologist said:
All life on earth is killed by the pc. Except maybe those tardigrades lol.


I love you.


--------------------
Tandem bicycles are designed for two riders. Do it together.

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Re: ergot fear from rye berry spawn bag [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25148057 -

Sure, I didnt look too far into the citations of the story as it seemed like it was from a book, and not answering the main question I was after. However ergotism does still occur, I've read a few articles on it through the NCBI website, which also has info from NLM and NIH, which of course are accredited sources. Either way, I do A LOT of research, and while some of it goes over my head I try my best to also look up things I dont know and try and understand from there. I have OCD and I have spent a lot of time trying to ease my mind over these years, over various questions that require a definitive answer, and trust me, there's plenty of lacking and even worse, contradicting research out there, from the "ultimate" sources (FDA, CDC) but that's another topic leaning more towards conspiracy; don't get me started on vaccines and fluoride in our drinking water.
Back on topic, I know that a research article wouldnt exist for "accidental ergot poisoning from a mushroom substrate", but I can deduce from certain  facts what I need to feel comfortable about my projects outcome. The ultimate answer to trump my concern seems simple enough to find, but oddly not there. THAT ULTIMATE QUESTION BEING; at what temperature do ergot alkaloids become inactive. Are they stable to heat? Considering that in the middle ages the outbreaks they had of ergotism, then called st. anthony's fire, was acquired through ingesting bread made from ergot ridden rye and wheat flour, which obviously gets baked, the temp to reach inactivity must be higher than that of bread baking. I can also surmise that the flour they were using contained far more ergot than what is available to us today, through strict FDA regulation. There are plenty of articles on how they are trying to maintain safe grain feed for animals and what levels are acceptable for animals and humans, though organic rye is much more likely to have some ergot in it, and that's coming just from what I've read on this forum. The main way of getting it out is through sifting. It seems like if heat or processing made it inactive then they still wouldnt be going to all the trouble of trying to remove the ergot, especially in animal feed (just process it by pressure cooking and then all should be good) However, I am also aware of all the published articles from the pharmaceutical aspect and why they might have a motive for accumulating it for research. Ergot alkaloids are commonly used for migraine headaches, as well as some use in obstetrics in the past to stop post hemorrhage bleeding. I'm not trying to sound like a dick either, I am learning and I know that, but I assumed that is precisely what such forums are for. Im not sure why you'd just assume that I couldnt at least extract the main reason as to why it would or wouldnt be of concern, just because I'm a noob or dont have a huge background in mycology or organic chemistry. I don't have a background in biology either, but I understand the basic concepts of cell division, if that makes sense toward my point. Again, not trying to be a dick but we are all here to help each other out if we can, no?

Edited by mother fungus (04/24/18 04:32 PM)

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Re: ergot fear from rye berry B+ cultivation/spawn bag [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25148065 -

bodhisatta said:
Not to sound like a dick but if I put a research paper in front of you you would probably have a hard time reading it. You would have looked up this question yourself or found that relevant article if article researching was your forte.
Not that there would be an article that would support my opinion anyway. Most articles focus on very specific things, there's no meta study about trying to grow ergot accidentally doing mycology projects tho.

What's very suspicious about that link you posted is that they wont give any information about the incident. "omitted to prevent embarrass" and no link to the report of the incident they're using as evidence. Also the victim happened to be a chemist. Etc... Fishy is usually fishy



This does make you sound like a dick...

This ads no real value to the OP.

Good job putting words together.


--------------------
Tandem bicycles are designed for two riders. Do it together.

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Re: ergot fear from rye berry B+ cultivation/spawn bag [Re: mother fungus]
    #25148079 -

mother fungus said:
I have OCD


cant your OCD tell you to use paragraphs and shit. damn thats a wall of text no one will read.
gotta love how when you boil down someones irrational fears the OCD line comes out of the woodwork.


--------------------
:hypnotoad:
Making Liquid Culture :  Go insane with LC
Mushboy likes these teks : Making shroom tea
Dank Education

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Re: ergot fear from rye berry B+ cultivation/spawn bag [Re: mushboy]
    #25148090 -

People who say it's my OCD have no idea what OCD actually is anyway. Try living with someone who actually has that and you'll forever be irritated by people that use that acronym like candy


--------------------
Everything you need in one spot.

My Q&A thread. Ask me questions here rather than in Private Message
Bod's chat thread

5g a day keeps the 5g away

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Re: ergot fear from rye berry spawn bag [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25148516 -

bodhisatta said:
People who say it's my OCD have no idea what OCD actually is anyway. Try living with someone who actually has that and you'll forever be irritated by people that use that acronym like candy


bodhisatta said:
People who say it's my OCD have no idea what OCD actually is anyway. Try living with someone who actually has that and you'll forever be irritated by people that use that acronym like candy


I truly have OCD. Not that I need to verify my mental condition to anyone. It's something that I've learned to live with, progressed with and it's no small feat, to overcome certain episodes that I've had. What an ass to say that.


--------------------
Unless you learn to face your own shadows, you will continue to see them in others, because the world outside of you, is only a reflection of the world inside of you.

Anything mentioned under my account should be acknowledged as purely hypothetical in nature and it should be understood that no mentioned action has occurred, or ever will.

Edited by mother fungus (04/24/18 04:19 PM)

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Re: ergot fear from rye berry spawn bag [Re: mushboy]
    #25148524 -

mushboy said:
mother fungus said:
I have OCD


cant your OCD tell you to use paragraphs and shit. damn thats a wall of text no one will read.
gotta love how when you boil down someones irrational fears the OCD line comes out of the woodwork.


Read it or don't. Kind people that are willing to help or have similar concerns or knowledge will. Irrational fears aside, I thought this site was here to be helpful and informative.


--------------------
Unless you learn to face your own shadows, you will continue to see them in others, because the world outside of you, is only a reflection of the world inside of you.

Anything mentioned under my account should be acknowledged as purely hypothetical in nature and it should be understood that no mentioned action has occurred, or ever will.

Edited by mother fungus (04/24/18 04:18 PM)

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Re: ergot fear from rye berry spawn bag [Re: Neutrino]
    #25148536 -

Neutrino said:
bodhisatta said:
Not to sound like a dick but if I put a research paper in front of you you would probably have a hard time reading it. You would have looked up this question yourself or found that relevant article if article researching was your forte.
Not that there would be an article that would support my opinion anyway. Most articles focus on very specific things, there's no meta study about trying to grow ergot accidentally doing mycology projects tho.

What's very suspicious about that link you posted is that they wont give any information about the incident. "omitted to prevent embarrass" and no link to the report of the incident they're using as evidence. Also the victim happened to be a chemist. Etc... Fishy is usually fishy



This does make you sound like a dick...

This ads no real value to the OP.

Good job putting words together.



Thank you Neutrino for taking the time to help me out and acknowledge a dick when you see one. I hope you have a great day.

Edited by mother fungus (04/24/18 04:17 PM)

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Re: ergot fear from rye berry B+ cultivation/spawn bag [Re: mother fungus]
    #25148538 -

You posted a fear, you were told the fear waz not founded in good science.

I'd define that as helpful and informative:thatsayes:


--------------------
:hypnotoad:
Making Liquid Culture :  Go insane with LC
Mushboy likes these teks : Making shroom tea
Dank Education

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Re: ergot fear from rye berry B+ cultivation/spawn bag [Re: mother fungus]
    #25148546 -

It is and its been around for 20+ years going strong. Its so helpful in fact that you can have an amazing grow before even posting. Especially if you have like OCD about things and stuff.

You got your answer.


--------------------
Everything you need in one spot.

My Q&A thread. Ask me questions here rather than in Private Message
Bod's chat thread

5g a day keeps the 5g away

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