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Burbles
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Registered: 03/24/08
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Discussion: for fastest colonization rates, should we mix grain spawn when 1/12th colonized?
#25137574 - 04/14/18 03:56 AM (5 years, 10 months ago) |
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I think people should be shaking grain spawn at 1/12 colonized. Each bit of grain is likely in contact with approximately 12 other grains. So, if yoh break it up at 1/12, the mycelium only needs to grow 1 additional grain width (in every direction, of course) to fully colonize it. This dramatically reduces colonization times for grain spawn.
Number maybe slightly higher or lower, but 1/12 seems like a good target since you won't be that precise anyway.
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/KissingNumber.html
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elasticaltiger
Like Tigers in Coitus




Registered: 06/24/13
Posts: 8,418
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Re: Discussion: for fastest colonization rates, should we mix grain spawn when 1/12th colonized? [Re: Burbles]
#25137810 - 04/14/18 07:54 AM (5 years, 10 months ago) |
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I've shaken early and I didn't see any improvement over shaking a little later. The more grains that are colonized the more spread you're going to have. It comes down to personal preference. If you're this convinced about your idea why don't you do an experiment? I predict you'll get colonization times about the same or less.
-------------------- First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger! No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit. "The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates) Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson EZEKIEL 23:20
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JHOVA
Post whore


Registered: 02/17/17
Posts: 4,727
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Re: Discussion: for fastest colonization rates, should we mix grain spawn when 1/12th colonized? [Re: Burbles]
#25137814 - 04/14/18 07:56 AM (5 years, 10 months ago) |
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Post a picture of your method to show proof it speeds up colonization.
-------------------- 🅃 🄴 🄰 🄼 🄲 🄻 🄸 🄽 🄶 🅆 🅁 🄰 🄿
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elasticaltiger
Like Tigers in Coitus




Registered: 06/24/13
Posts: 8,418
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Re: Discussion: for fastest colonization rates, should we mix grain spawn when 1/12th colonized? [Re: JHOVA] 1
#25137821 - 04/14/18 08:02 AM (5 years, 10 months ago) |
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I mean, the math seems sounds to me. I love WA so maybe they're on to something.
It doesn't factor something else though, if you have more than 1/12 colonization then that means you can have multiple colonized grains touching a single uncolonized grain. Mycelium colonizing a single grain from 2 directions will colonize that one grain faster than if the mycelium had only 1 inoculation point.
For this reason I believe 1/6 colonization is optimal because it means every uncolonized grain can be touching 2 colonized ones. This cuts the remaining colonization time for every grain in half.
1/6 just happens to be..... about 15%
-------------------- First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger! No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit. "The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates) Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson EZEKIEL 23:20
Edited by elasticaltiger (04/14/18 08:04 AM)
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elasticaltiger
Like Tigers in Coitus




Registered: 06/24/13
Posts: 8,418
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Re: Discussion: for fastest colonization rates, should we mix grain spawn when 1/12th colonized? [Re: elasticaltiger]
#25137826 - 04/14/18 08:06 AM (5 years, 10 months ago) |
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I am so smrt!
-------------------- First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger! No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit. "The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates) Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson EZEKIEL 23:20
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,890
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Discussion: for fastest colonization rates, should we mix grain spawn when 1/12th colonized? [Re: Burbles]
#25137849 - 04/14/18 08:17 AM (5 years, 10 months ago) |
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Shaking early sucks. Cool theory but actually try it out.
Then again if you use g2g or LC your jar finishes in under 7 days with no shaking anyway.
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elasticaltiger
Like Tigers in Coitus




Registered: 06/24/13
Posts: 8,418
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Re: Discussion: for fastest colonization rates, should we mix grain spawn when 1/12th colonized? [Re: bodhisatta]
#25137875 - 04/14/18 08:31 AM (5 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said: Shaking early sucks. Cool theory but actually try it out.
Then again if you use g2g or LC your jar finishes in under 7 days with no shaking anyway.
Bod at least back up my reasoning.
-------------------- First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger! No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit. "The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates) Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson EZEKIEL 23:20
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USFCav
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Registered: 03/29/13
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Re: Discussion: for fastest colonization rates, should we mix grain spawn when 1/12th colonized? [Re: bodhisatta]
#25137877 - 04/14/18 08:31 AM (5 years, 10 months ago) |
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I had a bag once that it took two weeks and only had 2 quarter sized myc points..while my other bag was at about 30% colonized..innoc at same time same syringe. I shook them both on same day..yes my 30% bag took off and got fully colonized quicker by about 3 days. But the other bag would have taken so much longer if I didn't shake it up. So I guess it's more about how long it is taking to colonize. If it's taking too long I say break it up and shake to speed up it's progress.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,890
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Discussion: for fastest colonization rates, should we mix grain spawn when 1/12th colonized? [Re: elasticaltiger]
#25137881 - 04/14/18 08:33 AM (5 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
elasticaltiger said:
Quote:
bodhisatta said: Shaking early sucks. Cool theory but actually try it out.
Then again if you use g2g or LC your jar finishes in under 7 days with no shaking anyway.
Bod at least back up my reasoning. 
Idk i do 30-50% based on lots of experience shaking jars at all different times.
Shake at 1/12th and it will quickly get to 40-60% then you'll be like fuck i want to shake again
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elasticaltiger
Like Tigers in Coitus




Registered: 06/24/13
Posts: 8,418
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Re: Discussion: for fastest colonization rates, should we mix grain spawn when 1/12th colonized? [Re: elasticaltiger]
#25137952 - 04/14/18 09:19 AM (5 years, 10 months ago) |
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No bod. Im talking about my other post.Quote:
elasticaltiger said: It doesn't factor something else though, if you have more than 1/12 colonization then that means you can have multiple colonized grains touching a single uncolonized grain. Mycelium colonizing a single grain from 2 directions will colonize that one grain faster than if the mycelium had only 1 inoculation point.
For this reason I believe 1/6 colonization is optimal because it means every uncolonized grain can be touching 2 colonized ones. This cuts the remaining colonization time for every grain in half.
1/6 just happens to be..... about 15%
-------------------- First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger! No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit. "The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates) Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson EZEKIEL 23:20
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Cybin_man
Circle the Wagons


Registered: 05/02/17
Posts: 799
Loc: In the bathroom
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Re: Discussion: for fastest colonization rates, should we mix grain spawn when 1/12th colonized? [Re: elasticaltiger]
#25137980 - 04/14/18 09:38 AM (5 years, 10 months ago) |
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This might tell you something. I nocc’d these both up on 3-22-18. Mixed them both up on 4-9-18 (2 days after the first picture). Now they look like this today 4-14-18. (2nd pic) PEU. (Doesn’t really matter though)
 Front and back
-------------------- mushrooms + my morning jacket = awesome https://youtu.be/xkY4isMi2Zc
 
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hamloaf
Pork Block



Registered: 12/23/09
Posts: 20,578
Loc: Oklahoma.
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Re: Discussion: for fastest colonization rates, should we mix grain spawn when 1/12th colonized? [Re: elasticaltiger]
#25138087 - 04/14/18 10:24 AM (5 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
elasticaltiger said: I mean, the math seems sounds to me. I love WA so maybe they're on to something.
It doesn't factor something else though, if you have more than 1/12 colonization then that means you can have multiple colonized grains touching a single uncolonized grain. Mycelium colonizing a single grain from 2 directions will colonize that one grain faster than if the mycelium had only 1 inoculation point.
For this reason I believe 1/6 colonization is optimal because it means every uncolonized grain can be touching 2 colonized ones. This cuts the remaining colonization time for every grain in half.
1/6 just happens to be..... about 15%
Nice post, ET.
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Burbles
Stranger


Registered: 03/24/08
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Re: Discussion: for fastest colonization rates, should we mix grain spawn when 1/12th colonized? [Re: hamloaf]
#25138736 - 04/14/18 03:13 PM (5 years, 10 months ago) |
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Maybe I'll do a youtube video on it. Not sure the best way to approach that though.
I have shaken early, and it seems that it always helps, as there is some sort of exponential growth thingy that goes on.
Shaking twice doesn't seem like a bad idea either, and I've done it, but with recovery time, it feels a little pointless.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,890
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Discussion: for fastest colonization rates, should we mix grain spawn when 1/12th colonized? [Re: elasticaltiger]
#25138740 - 04/14/18 03:15 PM (5 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
elasticaltiger said: No bod. Im talking about my other post.Quote:
elasticaltiger said: It doesn't factor something else though, if you have more than 1/12 colonization then that means you can have multiple colonized grains touching a single uncolonized grain. Mycelium colonizing a single grain from 2 directions will colonize that one grain faster than if the mycelium had only 1 inoculation point.
For this reason I believe 1/6 colonization is optimal because it means every uncolonized grain can be touching 2 colonized ones. This cuts the remaining colonization time for every grain in half.
1/6 just happens to be..... about 15%
makes sense but I still like to wait till at least 1/3 colonized to shake
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Burbles
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Re: Discussion: for fastest colonization rates, should we mix grain spawn when 1/12th colonized? [Re: bodhisatta]
#25138767 - 04/14/18 03:22 PM (5 years, 10 months ago) |
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How do you think we should do this experiment?
One way would be to just add 1/12, 1/6, and 1/3 spawn to sterilized grain - it is obvious higher spawn ratio will mean faster colonization time, but if you also recorded the time it took for the 1/12 quantity, 1/6 and 1/3 quantities to colonize, you could then add the times together to see which is the fastest.
This way you'd be doing it in a real measurable way and not just eye-balling it, and potentially not seeing how much spawn is actually colonized inside the bag.
Could do it in jars and inoculate with the same size of agar wedge, taken from the petri dish using something like a cork borer.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,890
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Discussion: for fastest colonization rates, should we mix grain spawn when 1/12th colonized? [Re: Burbles]
#25138778 - 04/14/18 03:26 PM (5 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Burbles said: How do you think we should do this experiment?
shake jars at 1/12 1/6 and 1/3 and so on. if you can reliably measure that %
Quote:
One way would be to just add 1/12, 1/6, and 1/3 spawn to sterilized grain - it is obvious higher spawn ratio will mean faster colonization time, but if you also recorded the time it took for the 1/12 quantity, 1/6 and 1/3 quantities to colonize, you could then add the times together to see which is the fastest.
obviously if you g2g and add more spawn into uncolonized it's faster. I don't see what this would acomplish other than proving common sense. I get that it's a way to measure but come on it's going to be a linear trend. Just like shaking closer to 100% is going to be faster.
Quote:
Could do it in jars and inoculate with the same size of agar wedge, taken from the petri dish using something like a cork borer.
that would make sense
or just make a bunch of grain jars over your cultivation career and shake them at different times and notice shaking early sucks.
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mushboy
modboy



Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 32,503
Loc: where?
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Re: Discussion: for fastest colonization rates, should we mix grain spawn when 1/12th colonized? [Re: bodhisatta]
#25138785 - 04/14/18 03:28 PM (5 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said:
or just make a bunch of grain jars over your cultivation career and shake them at different times and notice shaking early sucks.

i never shake early. and as time goes on and more jars i got going/less time to do shit, i find i dont shake at all.
sometimes those colonize first.. sometimes they dont
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Burbles
Stranger


Registered: 03/24/08
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Re: Discussion: for fastest colonization rates, should we mix grain spawn when 1/12th colonized? [Re: mushboy]
#25138818 - 04/14/18 03:42 PM (5 years, 10 months ago) |
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I like the way of doing an objective measurement - people think god talks to them, and that they have experience first hand with it. If you can say: in this study, the 1/12 spawn took 4 days to colonize when mixed the 1/6 took 3 days, and the 1/3 took 2 days, but the 1/12 spawn took 3 days to make, the 1/6 took 5 days,and the 1/3 took 7 days, you can then say: the 1/12 took 3 + 5 for a total of 7 days, while the others took 8 and 9 respectively and it is based on accurate, objective measurements... it is much better.
Everyone always says 1/3 -- but I have *never* seen anyone attempt such an experiment. Sure, it might be that, but it would be cool to graph this out.
it also obviously depends on container shape... so it's a bit complicated there. A sphere is likely to colonize the fastest due to less surface area touching the container.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
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Re: Discussion: for fastest colonization rates, should we mix grain spawn when 1/12th colonized? [Re: Burbles]
#25139066 - 04/14/18 05:11 PM (5 years, 10 months ago) |
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just make like 100-1000 grain jars. inoculate them all with the same size agar wedge and same monoculture.
then shake them at say 10 days 15 days and 20 days to represent as close you can to a certain % colonized. it will normalize out over such a high sample. I can help you with the statistics if you pony up and actually do it.
then you can get recovery times and correlate days to % colonized. You could even go so far as to take a couple sample jars at 10, 15 ,20 days and then dump them out and actually measure the % colonized to give yourself a calibration standard.
lots of ways to do it. but experience says ~30-50% is giving the most optimum recovery. This is based off more than decades of user reports. likely millions of grain jars worth of corroborating evidence.
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filthyknees
no coincidence


Registered: 03/08/13
Posts: 6,283
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Re: Discussion: for fastest colonization rates, should we mix grain spawn when 1/12th colonized? [Re: Burbles]
#25139502 - 04/14/18 07:34 PM (5 years, 10 months ago) |
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Posting hoping for follow through on test trials
-------------------- But if you're in a hurry, and really got to go If you're in a hurry, might have to find out slow That it's one thing to try and another to fly You get there quicker just a step at a time It's one thing to bark, another to bite The show ain't over till you pack up at night
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