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OfflinexFrockx
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Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,457
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Re: Overpopulation is not a problem. [Re: Rahz]
    #25122450 - 04/08/18 06:26 AM (5 years, 11 months ago)

"I suspect that your context doesn't include voluntary control since I assume you wouldn't have a problem with that."

Of course not. Voluntary anything is fine by me.

"I also suspect you equate the concept of overpopulation with misanthropy for the same reason. The various concerns that lead to the idea of overpopulation aren't direct indicators of misanthropy. It's only when solutions are associated with infringing on the liberty of others in some way that it becomes of dubious intent."

Yep, and this is where the "overpopulation" discussions always go. How to force it in the least evil way possible...

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InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
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Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,301
Re: Overpopulation is not a problem. [Re: xFrockx]
    #25122461 - 04/08/18 06:46 AM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"I suspect that your context doesn't include voluntary control since I assume you wouldn't have a problem with that."

Of course not. Voluntary anything is fine by me.

"I also suspect you equate the concept of overpopulation with misanthropy for the same reason. The various concerns that lead to the idea of overpopulation aren't direct indicators of misanthropy. It's only when solutions are associated with infringing on the liberty of others in some way that it becomes of dubious intent."

Yep, and this is where the "overpopulation" discussions always go. How to force it in the least evil way possible...




Except it's not forced. When people are able to afford a good lifestyle and are allowed to purchase condoms and other birth control devices they tend to have fewer children.

Evil is the Catholic church telling the masses condoms are evil.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." - Gilbert Keith Chesterton

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InvisibleFerdinando
Male

Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,695
Re: Overpopulation is not a problem. [Re: Rahz]
    #25122518 - 04/08/18 07:33 AM (5 years, 11 months ago)

yes oh I just thought you could steer the world to secure state and improve it almost vastly if you ran things. I couldn't do it either. we just gotta get the most/best out of it

it's very weird to me the situation. like the insecurity of it. I suppose I think that almost infinitely most of it is entirely safe and maybe running like perfectly, I suppose that's why, like intuition. it's bonkers maybe. like that it would be so much better if it was entirely safe.


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with our love with our love we could save the world

Edited by Ferdinando (08/06/18 05:24 AM)

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Invisiblequinn
some kinda love
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Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 6,799
Re: Overpopulation is not a problem. [Re: xFrockx]
    #25122648 - 04/08/18 08:53 AM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Less people does not mean more resources.



but it obviously does mean in an equitable society people would get a larger cut of the resource pie

Quote:

If we reach that point, people will die because of it anyway. There is no need for preemptive population control.



there's a rather substantial difference between ppl starving to death and ppl having less children :undecided: i dont think that conclusion follows at all

i dont think overpopulation is THE problem. i think there is a decent argument to be made that it is the wealthy countries responsible for consuming the world's resources who are more to blame than poorer countries with growing populations...

on a conceptual level tho, i do believe every human on earth is entitled to a basic standard of living in terms of healthcare, safety and food and that should be the minimum we aspire to. it is clear then that the greater the population the greater the burden on ensuring acceptable living standards for all, and obviously in a finite world with finite resources there is a real point where we would say the world is becoming overpopulated and unsustainable... so at least from this perspective you must agree that whether or not it is a problem today, it could become a problem...

if resources could be redistributed today and done so in a way that is sustainable for the foreseeable future then i'd agree that overpopulation is not an issue... however given as has already been pointed out that over a billion people today live in extreme poverty i would say it is a problem or at least part of it.


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dripping with fantasy

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Overpopulation is not a problem. [Re: quinn]
    #25122918 - 04/08/18 10:37 AM (5 years, 11 months ago)

"but it obviously does mean in an equitable society people would get a larger cut of the resource pie"

If we had an equitable society now I don't think anyone would be complaining about overpopulation.

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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Overpopulation is not a problem. [Re: xFrockx]
    #25122950 - 04/08/18 10:51 AM (5 years, 11 months ago)

perhaps not (tho id be interested if that's based on anything)

as i said, if we could maintain the current population at a decent living standard and it was sustainable i would agree


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dripping with fantasy

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Overpopulation is not a problem. [Re: quinn] * 1
    #25123141 - 04/08/18 11:49 AM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Thing is, that's an awfully big "if."


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Offlinedodgem
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Re: Overpopulation is not a problem. [Re: qman] * 2
    #25124762 - 04/09/18 01:28 AM (5 years, 11 months ago)

The problem is there is no such thing as a problem.

The fact that humans think that their lives are superior to any other living thing in existence is quite hysterical. To base the well being of the living planet earth on something as minute as one living species is comical.

People die. That’s not a bad thing.

Quote:

qman said:
The standard of living of humans today is based on the price of energy. The cheaper the energy and then the higher standard of living.

If you don't care about the standard of living of billions of people today, then you might claim "overpopulation is not a problem", but it depends on how you define "a problem".




If only we could realize energy is free our standard our living would be through the roof.


--------------------
Walk where you like your steps

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OfflineMadoxx
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Registered: 05/19/13
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Re: Overpopulation is not a problem. [Re: dodgem]
    #25138219 - 04/14/18 11:30 AM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Lets ride the wave boys






Seeing the world as a petri dish (with limited resources) and us as bacteria dividing at exponential rates is always funny, spotting the similarities between both graphs. World population 1900: 1.6 Billion. Projected for 2100: 9.6 - 12.3 billion.


--------------------
:awecid:

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Overpopulation is not a problem. [Re: Madoxx] * 2
    #25138651 - 04/14/18 02:45 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Less people does not mean more resources.





This seems real dumb to me.

Also I always thought the argument for overpopulation was about quality of life. At least that's what I look at with regards to population :shrug:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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OfflineXeny

Registered: 02/15/08
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Re: Overpopulation is not a problem. [Re: Madoxx] * 1
    #25194814 - 05/10/18 05:33 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Madoxx said:
Lets ride the wave boys







Thank you industrial revolution?

We are just no longer capable of any form of real familyplanning, we use up any resource as fast as we possibly can, we prefer a fast burn instead of a slow steady ride. The mentality of people is also troubling, most see the problems but either think it's too late or think their actions have no impact. Aboriginals used to carefully regulated their population according to the availability of food and water. Their population is rising fast too since they moved into permanent settlements with all-year access to water and food.

Not easy to overlook life's instinct to propagate.


--------------------
Ik hou van je

While you're still sleeping the saints are still weepin' cause things you call dead haven't yet had the chance to be born. -Scatman John

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Offlinejibbly1
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Re: Overpopulation is not a problem. [Re: Xeny] * 1
    #25282801 - 06/21/18 08:30 AM (5 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Xeny said:
Quote:

Madoxx said:
Lets ride the wave boys







Thank you industrial revolution?

We are just no longer capable of any form of real familyplanning, we use up any resource as fast as we possibly can, we prefer a fast burn instead of a slow steady ride. The mentality of people is also troubling, most see the problems but either think it's too late or think their actions have no impact. Aboriginals used to carefully regulated their population according to the availability of food and water. Their population is rising fast too since they moved into permanent settlements with all-year access to water and food.

Not easy to overlook life's instinct to propagate.




This is true, although controversial to talk about in Australia. Australian aboriginals did practice infanticide during times of food scarcity, usually coinciding with droughts caused by el-nino events. They also had strict rules passed down through the generations through songs and stories about what they could hunt or gather, where and when. This allowed environments, animals and plants to regenerate. They lived in a state of stable homeostasis with their environment and have done for 10's of thousands of years. Our modern civilisation is about as sustainable as those who built angkor wat or the Easter Island civilisation. (both civilisations that blindly out grew their resources)

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OfflinePeyote Road
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Registered: 09/02/15
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Re: Overpopulation is not a problem. [Re: jibbly1]
    #25284425 - 06/22/18 12:14 AM (5 years, 9 months ago)

I'm guilty of the misanthropy pointed out in the OP, so I am fine with less people. But I don't think the earth can adequately handle much more than 10 billion and we are approaching that number.


--------------------
The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Registered: 05/07/04
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Re: Overpopulation is not a problem. [Re: Xeny]
    #25290920 - 06/25/18 12:25 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Xeny said:
Quote:

Madoxx said:
Lets ride the wave boys







Thank you industrial revolution?

We are just no longer capable of any form of real familyplanning, we use up any resource as fast as we possibly can, we prefer a fast burn instead of a slow steady ride. The mentality of people is also troubling, most see the problems but either think it's too late or think their actions have no impact. Aboriginals used to carefully regulated their population according to the availability of food and water. Their population is rising fast too since they moved into permanent settlements with all-year access to water and food.

Not easy to overlook life's instinct to propagate.



Yes.
As long as we, as self-declared first world, live a role model of greed, strength, respectlessness, richness and whatever sin to overpower others and enrich ourselves, this multiplies with the population as and impact on the whole planet and our future.
This mental setting is the biggest problem.
It shouldn't be a wonder nor a secret.
It's obvious.

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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Overpopulation is not a problem. [Re: BlueCoyote] * 1
    #25290957 - 06/25/18 12:58 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

the OPs attitude seems like that of  Queen Marie Antoinette

"Let them eat cake" is the traditional translation of the French phrase "Qu'ils mangent de la brioche", supposedly spoken by "a great princess" upon learning that the peasants had no bread. Since brioche was a luxury bread enriched with butter and eggs, the quote would reflect the princess's disregard for the peasants, or her poor understanding of their situation."

Those in privileged positions, rarely understand, the larger context. And furthermore those who are privileged often don't know they are.

The story of the Buddha's early life and leaving home relate to precisely this point. So wether or not it is historically true, it is retold as it teaches us in metaphor the unfortunate consequences of being too sheltered.

Some of the secular remedies for being overly sheltered are, volunteer work, travel, and a study of anthropology. ( Of course If you stay at the Hilton when you travel, like the 'ugly american' type, it doesn't count).

In the case of trying to understand population issues, I suppose visits to India, China, and Tokyo might be recommended.

Of course if one wants to save money, one could start here, but of course images, lack the smells and sounds that would really help bring them to life; and of course even with smells and sounds interaction would be lacking, let alone the difficulty of escape, in such a situation.

https://www2.bing.com/images/search?q=living+in+a++dump%2c+India&FORM=HDRSC2

https://www2.bing.com/images/search?q=crowded%20indian%20train&qs=SC&form=QBIR&sp=4&pq=crowding%2C%20india&sk=RI1SC2&sc=5-15&cvid=39117E743AAE45998EA64F5491E89BC9

https://www2.bing.com/images/search?q=crowded%20streets%20in%20china&qs=SC&form=QBIR&sp=1&pq=crowded%20street%20chin&sc=3-19&cvid=DC4D9E0471D64BD391D576E29C3AEDBD

etc

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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system Flag
Re: Overpopulation is not a problem. [Re: laughingdog]
    #25292753 - 06/26/18 10:10 AM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
In the case of trying to understand population issues, I suppose visits to India, China, and Tokyo might be recommended.



Completely agree. I've travelled in India and China extensively and the experiences were incredibly humbling and life-changing.

It fascinates me how many people have never left the privileged homeland in which they were born and yet have such strong opinions about the whole world, even though they've never seen it.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

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OfflinePeyote Road
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Re: Overpopulation is not a problem. [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #25301914 - 07/01/18 12:35 AM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:
Quote:

laughingdog said:
In the case of trying to understand population issues, I suppose visits to India, China, and Tokyo might be recommended.



Completely agree. I've travelled in India and China extensively and the experiences were incredibly humbling and life-changing.

It fascinates me how many people have never left the privileged homeland in which they were born and yet have such strong opinions about the whole world, even though they've never seen it.




Agree, very strong opinions on topics you have not taken the time to really learn about are in general not a good thing.


--------------------
The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra

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