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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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LIGO * 2
    #25100284 - 03/29/18 05:59 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

The Laser Interferometer Gravitational-Wave Observatory (LIGO) is a large-scale physics experiment and observatory to detect cosmic gravitational waves and to develop gravitational-wave observations as an astronomical tool. Two large observatories were built in the United States, one in Hanford, WA and the other in Livingston, LA, with the aim of detecting gravitational waves by laser interferometry. These can detect a change in the 4 km mirror spacing of less than a ten-thousandth the charge diameter of a proton, equivalent to measuring the distance from Earth to Proxima Centauri (4.0208x10^13 km) with an accuracy smaller than the width of a human hair.

As of March 2018, LIGO has made six detections of gravitational waves, of which the first five were colliding black-hole pairs. The sixth detected event, on August 17, 2017, was the first detection of a collision of two neutron stars, which simultaneously produced optical signals detectable by conventional telescopes.

Rai Weiss, Barry Barish and Kip Thorne won the 2017 Nobel Prize in Physics for the discovery.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LIGO


I am reading an excellent book about LIGO right now called Black Hole Blues (And Other Songs from Outer Space) by Janna Levin which I recommend.

The detection and sophisticated observation of gravitational wave signatures is a big deal, one of the most significant scientific discoveries, possibly ever. The only catch is that it cost almost $700 million to get this thing going.

I just wanted to share some info on this for anyone interested.


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OfflineWeakHyperCharge
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Re: LIGO [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #25133589 - 04/12/18 04:29 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Thanks, LIGO blows my mind. I'm sure it would have made Einstein nut his pants.

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: LIGO [Re: WeakHyperCharge]
    #25133642 - 04/12/18 04:53 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Absolutely. They actually made their first detection in 2016, the hundredth anniversary of the publication of Einstein's general theory of relativity. Pretty neat.


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InvisibleMr. Bojangles
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Re: LIGO [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #25138932 - 04/14/18 04:28 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

The sheer scale and precision of the equipment and engineering required to accurately detect gravitational waves is absurd.  I consider LIGO one of the current pinnacles of human achievement.


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Re: LIGO [Re: Mr. Bojangles]
    #25139182 - 04/14/18 05:46 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

The specs on the wiki page are different from the LIGO site, which says they use mirrors to amplify a 200W laser to 750kW and then more mirrors to make it effectively 1120km long. :ooo: Also check out Fermilab's holometer, they haven't found any quantization, yet.

"The fact that the Holometer ruled out his theory to a high level of significance proves that it can probe time and space at previously unimagined scales, Hogan said. It also proves that if this quantum jitter exists, it is either much smaller than the Holometer can detect, or is moving in directions the current instrument is not configured to observe."

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: LIGO [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #25663765 - 12/07/18 01:13 PM (5 years, 5 months ago)

It has just been announced that LIGO has made more detections of gravitational events, specifically four new black hole mergers.


Quote:

Scientists’ collection of gravitational waves just got a lot bigger


Astronomers have now tallied up more gravitational wave sightings than they can count on their fingers.

Scientists with the LIGO and Virgo gravitational wave observatories report four new sets of these ripples in spacetime. Those additions bring the total count to 11, the researchers say in a study published December 3 at arXiv.org, marking major progress since the first gravitational wave detection in 2015 (SN: 3/5/16, p. 6).

All but one of the 11 sets of waves were stirred up in violent collisions of two black holes. The one remaining detection, reported in October 2017, instead came from the smashup of two stellar corpses called neutron stars (SN: 11/11/17, p. 6).

The observations are beginning to reveal how often such waves jiggle the cosmos, and the properties of the shadowy cosmic figures that unleash the ripples. For example, the data hint that black holes may have merged more frequently earlier in the universe’s history, the researchers report in a second study posted December 3 at arXiv.org. The team also concluded that few mergers involve black holes bigger than about 50 times the sun’s mass.

“There’s real strong evidence that those (larger) black holes are missing,” says LIGO member Daniel Holz, an astrophysicist at the University of Chicago. Some theoretical physicists had predicted such a dearth of bulky black holes, based on the physics of stellar explosions that produce the cosmic chasms.

Record-breaking black holes produced one of the new sets of spacetime shivers. The combined mass of the colliding behemoths was the largest yet spotted, with one black hole weighing in at about 50 times the mass of the sun, and the other at 34 times the sun’s mass. Those ripples also originated farther away than any previous detection: about 9 billion light-years from Earth, give or take a few billion. “It stands out in every possible way,” says physicist Emanuele Berti of Johns Hopkins University, who was not involved with the research. “It’s super interesting.”

LIGO’s two detectors — located in Hanford, Wash., and Livingston, La., — and Virgo, near Pisa in Italy, are shuttered for upgrades until next spring. Improvements to the equipment could triple the number of gravitational wave sightings, Holz says. “We’re going to get a whole bunch more.”

www.sciencenews.org/article/ligo-detects-gravitational-waves-4-black-hole-collisions







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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: LIGO [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #25666327 - 12/08/18 06:08 PM (5 years, 5 months ago)

Awesome. Larger sample size!

:wooyeah:

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: LIGO [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26138961 - 08/16/19 07:21 PM (4 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Scientists may have spotted a black hole and a neutron star colliding

By Adrian Cho  Aug. 16, 2019 , 4:55 PM
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/08/scientists-may-have-spotted-black-hole-and-neutron-star-colliding


Gravitational-wave hunters may have spotted their most exotic quarry yet. On 14 August at 5:10:39 p.m. EDT, a trio of gigantic detectors in the United States and Italy detected a pulse of gravitational waves—ripples in space itself—apparently set off when a black hole and a neutron star spiraled into each other about 900 million light-years away. Observers had previously spotted numerous mergers of black holes and one merger of neutron stars, but never a combination. The new find could give new insights into neutron stars, which are made of the densest matter in the cosmos.

"This is a huge milestone—if it stands up," says Patrick Brady, spokesperson for the more than 1300 scientists working with the Laser Interferometer Gravitational-Wave Observatory (LIGO), which has twin detectors in Hanford, Washington, and Livingston, Louisiana. The new observation was made by LIGO and Virgo, a gravitational wave detector near Pisa, Italy, which itself hosts more than 400 scientists.

Gravitational waves are set off when extremely massive objects collide. To detect the infinitesimal stretching of space, physicists developed huge L-shaped optical instruments called interferometers, with arms several kilometers long. The first detection came in September 2015, when LIGO researchers sensed a burst of gravitational radiation from two massive black holes dozens of times as massive as the sun merging 1.3 billion light-years away. Because a black hole is a pure gravitational field left behind when a massive star collapses to a point, the collision involved no matter and produced no visible radiation.

In August 2017, Virgo joined the hunt. Within days, the three detectors spotted an even more fruitful event: the merger of two neutron stars—essentially gigantic atomic nuclei about 10 kilometers across that are left behind by the implosion of stars slightly too small to create black holes. That collision also produced a massive explosion that was seen by conventional telescopes across the electromagnetic spectrum.

Now, LIGO and Virgo may have spotted the merger of a black hole and a neutron star. "This is the third leg of our collection, and of course we want to complete our collection," says Vicky Kalogera, an astrophysicist and LIGO member at Northwestern University in Evanston, Illinois. Seeing just one black hole shred a neutron star could reveal how stiff neutron-star matter is, Kalogera says, which is key to deciphering the structure of neutron stars. Theorists still aren’t entirely sure how common black hole-neutron star pairs should be or how they form, she says. Modeling suggests they're more likely to form from stars born in orbiting pairs that then collapse, rather than wandering black holes and neutron stars that somehow find each other.

The new signal was remarkably strong. Working together, the three detectors were able to pinpoint the source on the sky to within 23 square degrees—a spot on the sky about seven times as wide as the moon. In comparison, they were able to locate the merging neutron stars only to within 28 square degrees, even though that pair was much closer, only 130 million light-years away. The strength of the signal reflects how much the precision of the detectors has improved in 2 years, Brady says.

To really nail down the nature of the colliding bodies, researchers hope that conventional telescopes can spot evidence of some sort of an explosion, which would indicate the presence of neutron star material. So far, astronomers have reported no obvious signs of such an "optical counterpart," Brady says.

That lack of an optical counterpart means the identification of the objects rests entirely on their masses, which researchers estimate from the gravitational waves. One is heavier than five solar masses, and the other—the presumed neutron star—is lighter than three, Brady says. But that second identification isn't entirely certain, Kalogera says. "Maybe it's not a neutron star? Maybe it's a tiny black hole?" In fact, based on the earlier observation of merging neutron stars, some theorists argue a neutron star cannot weigh more than about 2.2 solar masses.

If astronomers can’t find an optical counterpart, then LIGO and Virgo researchers will have to try to nail down the nature of the colliding objects from the gravitational waves alone. That's challenging, but not necessarily impossible, Brady says. "This is the great thing about this observation,” he says. “It's right at the edge of our discovery space and we're going to have to work very hard to understand what we're seeing."







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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: LIGO [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26139101 - 08/16/19 08:42 PM (4 years, 8 months ago)

That's really interesting. Neutron stars have the highest density matter known to science, at least to my understanding. So to see it torn apart by a black hole will give some interesting results.

Its a shame that the event will not produce much visible light. I wonder if Radio telescopes will pick any signals as an alternative to optical telescopes?

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Offlinekillingravensun
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Re: LIGO [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #26139178 - 08/16/19 09:36 PM (4 years, 8 months ago)

how does the GW stretch the mechanism but not the light?

Quote:

While it's true that a gravitational wave does stretch and squeeze the wavelength of the light in the arms ever so slightly, it does NOT affect the fact that the beams will travel different distances as the wave changes each arm's length.



https://www.ligo.caltech.edu/page/faq

so the light is affected differently in some unexplained way?

Quote:

A gravitational wave causes each of LIGO's arms to change length in an opposite fashion, i.e., when one arm gets longer, the other gets shorter.





but the length of the light is also affected so how are changes detected?

Quote:

the laser beams are making their way through the interferometer unaware of the fact that the distance they have to travel before meeting up again is changing. A beam traveling through a longer arm, therefore, takes a little longer to return to the merger point than the beam in the shorter arm




the beams are also stretched/compressed so the laser beams time of travel is not affected in relation to the device.

for the device to work a part of it must be made of a substance that is not subject to gravitational influence. the device therefore cannot measure GWs if they even exist.

the whole concept is a logical fallacy


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: LIGO [Re: killingravensun]
    #26139184 - 08/16/19 09:44 PM (4 years, 8 months ago)

Gravity can bend lightwaves. Gravitational lensing is one example.

Quote:

As this is happening, the laser beams are making their way through the interferometer unaware of the fact that the distance they have to travel before meeting up again is changing. A beam traveling through a longer arm, therefore, takes a little longer to return to the merger point than the beam in the shorter arm, which means, when they do meet up again, their waves won't necessarily just cancel each other out. Instead, they pass through each other, sometimes canceling out, but other times adding together to make a brighter light. Back and forth the waves pass through (*interfere with*) each other as the arms themselves change length, causing light interference that ranges fully between totally destructive to totally constructive. In other words, instead of nothing coming out of the interferometer, a flicker of light appears.

While this sounds like a mess, it's not. In fact, during a gravitational wave's passage, the resulting interference pattern itself changes in-step with the changing lengths of the arms. Looking at the changing interference pattern, LIGO computers decipher exactly how the arms of the interferometer itself must have changed over the time of the wave's passage to create the patterns that emerge. In this elegant way, the changing times of arrival of the laser beams from each arm cause a changing interference pattern that betrays changes in the lengths of the arms caused by the gravitational wave!




So LIGO measures the interference or non-interference of lightwaves depending on if gravity waves are affecting the arms. Non-interference means no gravity waves but an interference pattern means gravity waves are affecting the device, which affects the light output depending on its interference pattern caused by varying intensities of gravity waves.

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Offlinekillingravensun
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Re: LIGO [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #26139203 - 08/16/19 09:56 PM (4 years, 8 months ago)

gravity is affecting the whole machine including the light, it is not shown that GW can affect different parts in different ways, no information can be gleaned even if GWs are real.


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Re: LIGO [Re: killingravensun]
    #26139206 - 08/16/19 10:00 PM (4 years, 8 months ago)

If the light and the device arms were affected in the same way, there would be no interference pattern. The device would never change.

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Offlinekillingravensun
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Re: LIGO [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #26139217 - 08/16/19 10:07 PM (4 years, 8 months ago)

that is correct, if gravity is affecting all parts similarly then no information about gravitational influence can be gleaned. it must first be shown that some part of the machine remains unaffected by the GW and then a measurement can be made between that element and the rest of the device.


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Re: LIGO [Re: killingravensun]
    #26139224 - 08/16/19 10:15 PM (4 years, 8 months ago)

My understanding is different things can affect the device in different ways. For example, an Earthquake. So they have all these sensors to identify "noise" and filter it out later need be to look for the specific gravity wave interference pattern.

Then comparing that suspected Gravity Wave to other sources things that would cause vibrations in the device:

Quote:

Measuring all known noise sources (e.g., earthquakes, winds, ocean waves, traffic, farming activities, even molecular vibrations in LIGO's mirrors) with seismometers, magnetometers, microphones, and gamma ray detectors, and then filtering out the vibrations caused by these sources from our data.

Looking for identical, simultaneous signals from multiple detectors world-wide (LIGO, Virgo, GEO600). This rules out noise sources which are local to a given detector. The more detectors that feel the same vibration at "the same time" (accounting for travel-time between detectors), the more certain we are that the source of the vibration was not local.

Constantly comparing the signals coming out of the interferometers with theorized patterns of gravitational waves generated by known phenomena (these patterns are derived directly from the equations of general relativity).

Comparing the time of arrival of a possible gravitational wave event with an electromagnetic (EM) event seen by EM observatories.




Cool thing is there is multiple devices across the entire world and when you sync the data, you can identify interference sources that are local and non-local (gravity waves).

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Offlinekillingravensun
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Re: LIGO [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #26139239 - 08/16/19 10:27 PM (4 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
Quote:

Measuring all known noise sources...


Constantly comparing the signals coming out of the interferometers with theorized patterns of gravitational waves




Cool thing is there is multiple devices across the entire world and when you sync the data, you can identify interference sources that are local and non-local (gravity waves).



there is much discussion on the noise filtering techniques and their efficacy, but regardless there is no element of the device that is static with regards to gravitational influence, whatever signal is received cannot be a GW.


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Offlinechibiabos
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Re: LIGO [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #26143346 - 08/19/19 06:27 PM (4 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
Gravity can bend lightwaves. Gravitational lensing is one example.



No it can't. Spacetime can have nonzero curvature (and the curvature itself literally is gravity) but gravity isn't a force that can deflect photons.  It's basically a result of the actual geometry of spacetime, which isn't constant.  The geometry tells you how to quantify distances and the geometry seen by an observer (according to you) depends on its motion relative to you.  Or it's motion relative to you depends on the way that that observer's coordinate system is defined.  Sort of a chicken and egg thing, and definitely beside the point.

The idea of gravity as a force works well in a sort of a Newtonian treatment of problems, but Newtonian theories of gravity (which basically result from some assumptions that he had to make about the geometry of space -- as opposed to spacetime -- and that he was very clear about when he wrote his Principia) don't provide valid descriptions on the scales that you're trying to think about and Newton never really intended for them to do so.

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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: LIGO [Re: chibiabos]
    #26143366 - 08/19/19 06:39 PM (4 years, 8 months ago)

Ok sure, lets be more specific: Gravity bends space-time and since light travels thru it, it bends light as well. Another example is black holes which even light cannot escape. That is extreme gravity levels thou.

Gravity is obviously a force since it acts on object but poorly understood.

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Re: LIGO [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #26143403 - 08/19/19 07:07 PM (4 years, 8 months ago)

Gravity doesn't bend spacetime.  Gravity is the curvature of spacetime.  If you were to imagine a three dimensional spacetime that, out to its very and infinite limit was laid out like a three-dimensional grid that looks like little cubes stacked on top of and next to each other (so that if you look down from the top it looks like a bunch of squares on a grid) then gravity would be the degree to which your actual three dimensional spacetime deviates from that.  It looks like a force if you assume that the entire universe looks something like the former, but if you treat the geometry of spacetime (i.e. the geometry as seen by an observer who isn't you) as a sort of a term whose definition depends on that observer's motion then you start to get results like where a particle in a closed, elliptical orbit is actually on a geodesic with no forces acting on it.

Related video might help with the context.  I'd highly recommend watching the entire thing, but you can skip to 16:00 if you just want to get to the part about geodesics.


Edited by chibiabos (08/19/19 07:37 PM)

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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: LIGO [Re: chibiabos]
    #26143618 - 08/19/19 09:22 PM (4 years, 8 months ago)

I don't believe that. Gravity definitely bends space-time by the force behind it. Similar to the way water bends light (refraction).

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