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BrendanFlock
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Hmm, maybe the agency is in natural selection..
Agency is life?
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BrendanFlock
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Re: What is it about intoxication? [Re: BrendanFlock]
#25078804 - 03/20/18 08:38 PM (6 years, 29 days ago) |
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Talk about agencies of survival..?
What part of the mind is an agent? The being itself is an agent..
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feevers
Registered: 12/28/10
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The science seems to imply that evolution created consciousness, and therefore not just the idea of agency but the ability to recognise it (or invent it ).
One could easily argue that DNA code and the known forces that move and shape matter are responsible for everything we do and experience. Existence is pre-scripted, you're not in control, it just feels that way, etc.
While humans will likely never know for certain, it's also possible that as new means of perception(vision, hearing etc.) evolved, more complex methods for processing the vast amounts of new input gave rise to the need for new prossessing soft/hardware. And that's ultimately what consciousness is. A tool that's slightly better at doing whatever it is we're doing with this existence.
The physical world we perceive is merely an interface for something very much real, but very different than what we actually see, hear, feel etc., as basic study of neuroperception shows.
At the very least, I think consciousness is nothing of what we think it is and is a part of something infinitely larger that entails far more than earthly perceptions and language can convey.
So I didn't really start this thread to argue semantics of whether or not evolution is a force. I just see it as entirely possible that momentum can play a part in it, and a push or a pull(force) towards fitness or evolution is not out of the question.
I realize this is pretty far out there, but it's just thoughts. Assuming to "know" anything in this realm is just an admittance of deep confusion.
Edited by feevers (03/20/18 09:00 PM)
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BrendanFlock
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Re: What is it about intoxication? [Re: feevers]
#25078913 - 03/20/18 09:28 PM (6 years, 29 days ago) |
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Freewill is a feedback system.. So although you determine and plan to do things in the future.. you can get to that time and make a different choice..
Like if soneone makes a prophecy in the future.. you can litterally make choices that would betray the prophecy..
So that is what you can do if you feel the prediction of the future is bad..
Otherwise we can determine our future and keep all the good parts.. or parts you want to elect to do..
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feevers
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Re: What is it about intoxication? [Re: BrendanFlock] 1
#25079493 - 03/21/18 08:17 AM (6 years, 29 days ago) |
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Your capacity to plan or do anything is possibly pre-scripted by factors beyond your control. The fact that we're even conscious is just a summation of past events in evolution(as well as factors such as a meteor not having hit us), present existence is merely a summation of all past events in the way in which we understand the "past". Whatever happens, even our entire conscious experience, may have been always going to happen since the so-called beginning. Momentum. We ultimately don't even understand time, or if it's even linear, so even that thought is likely far too simplistic.
Your consciousness, and therefore "you", as well as your decisions, may all just be a result of genetics, epigenetics, and physical forces in the environment.
Just because you're aware of thinking "raise hand" and watching your hand go up doesn't necessarily mean you're an independent conscious being with free will in the present moment. That's just one way of looking at it that appears to make simple sense and be self-evident, and is appealing. Agency implies that we're making things happen, I'd argue that we don't even know what "we" means.
We see someone with a disorder in their neurochemistry, and instantly assume that they have less control or free will, which is why the insanity defense exists in law. We take it at face value that they're a slave to their neurochemistry, but never consider how the deeper aspects of that idea apply to our own consciousness.
Ultimately I don't lean either way in regards to the free will debate. I can completely understand the argument that it doesn't exist, but much of that argument is based upon materialist science, which I see as falling short.
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DoctorJ
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Re: What is it about intoxication? [Re: feevers]
#25080108 - 03/21/18 01:47 PM (6 years, 29 days ago) |
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Merely the word 'intoxication' implies one has been poisoned. There are synonyms with far less accusatory connotations, such as 'inebriated'.
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feevers
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Re: What is it about intoxication? [Re: DoctorJ]
#25080154 - 03/21/18 02:09 PM (6 years, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
DoctorJ said: Merely the word 'intoxication' implies one has been poisoned. There are synonyms with far less accusatory connotations, such as 'inebriated'.
True, but language evolves and I'd guess that very few people associate the word intoxication in daily conversation with poison. Technically it's likely that all drugs are poisons, we just use small doses..
I prefer "altered states of consciousness", but there are a plethora of words that can be used to provide the same context.
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Jokeshopbeard
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Re: What is it about intoxication? [Re: feevers] 2
#25080407 - 03/21/18 04:20 PM (6 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
feevers said: What is it about all of this that attracts us? It seems like it has to be more than just the fact that substances feel good. There seems to be some different reason that we all, even those who don't take drugs themselves, identify with altered states.
From someone who has relentlessly pursued just about every 'altered state of consciousness' there is going throughout his life, I'll say this about them:
They really make me feel so much more 'alive' than I feel in my baseline state.
I can't for a second imagine what role the desire to reach them might play in evolution, but it does seem obvious to me that it is a human proclivity to seek them, and perhaps even beyond human - as I believe there's enough studies that teach us that other animals will also indulge and/or seek them.
If I had to guess, I would say that they are likely pursued to the extent they are in humans due to the fact that they can make us feel 'complete'. Bear in mind I am not only talking about extraneously induced states, but also states induced by ourselves internally.
But yeah, I think consciousness leaves most of us feeling pretty 'broken' in some way deep down, whether we care to admit it or not, and I think that we can very effectively (if most often temporarily) cure that through going into an altered state of some sort.
I have a sudden urge to go and ride my motorbike at high speeds now.
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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feevers
Registered: 12/28/10
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"Completeness"... that's a great way of putting it, and one I can relate to. I feel that certainly applies to opiates, benzos/booze, and stimulants for myself. Near the peak I often get the thought "if I could just keep this feeling always... things would be good". I really don't know how I'd classify what psychedelics do... it varies so much.
I think it's not far off to say most people want to be energetic, stress free, pain free, and euphoric... and there are plants out there(as well as their derivatives) that can easily accomplish that goal for us. Typically it's temporary, and when used too often can lead to the exact opposite of the desired effect.
A "broken" consciousness is an interesting theory, and I think at a deeper level touches on a lot of aspects of religion and philosophy. Maybe incomplete would be a good term as well.
Will evolution eventually bring about a consciousness that feels "complete" enough that it doesn't need to waste time using drugs? The current form of consciousness appears to be distracted with many things that in no way favor fitness or species propagation, what are the next steps?
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BrendanFlock
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Re: What is it about intoxication? [Re: feevers]
#25081219 - 03/21/18 11:00 PM (6 years, 28 days ago) |
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Intoxication shows us new pathways.. new doors and new oppourtunities happen because of it..
The psychedelic experience far outweighs the normal sober experience..
Simply because of the more potent chemistry..
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RJ Tubs 202
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Re: What is it about intoxication? [Re: BrendanFlock]
#25081297 - 03/22/18 12:19 AM (6 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
BrendanFlock said:
The psychedelic experience far outweighs the normal sober experience...
Would you choose the psychedelic experience continuously?
Our "favorite" ice-cream isn't so wonderful if we eat it all the time.
It's interesting that we learn to associate drug effects with pleasure. From childhood onward we're bombarded with messages (movies, ads, music) that the effects of booze, pot, pills, etc "creates" pleasure in our brain. Research shows this association is learned.
Look at all the "fun" people are having in beer and tequila commercials! Kids learn drunk = happy
When you observe someone high on crack or drunk or stoned, do they really appear to be experiencing pleasure?
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BrendanFlock
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Re: What is it about intoxication? [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
#25081380 - 03/22/18 01:45 AM (6 years, 28 days ago) |
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Yeah, the more drugs, the more pleasure!
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Ferdinando
Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,753
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Re: What is it about intoxication? [Re: BrendanFlock]
#25081511 - 03/22/18 04:19 AM (6 years, 28 days ago) |
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godspeed and with that I mean going as slow as possible
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
Edited by Ferdinando (03/22/18 07:33 AM)
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DoctorJ
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Re: What is it about intoxication? [Re: feevers]
#25081602 - 03/22/18 05:44 AM (6 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
feevers said:
Quote:
DoctorJ said: Merely the word 'intoxication' implies one has been poisoned. There are synonyms with far less accusatory connotations, such as 'inebriated'.
True, but language evolves and I'd guess that very few people associate the word intoxication in daily conversation with poison. Technically it's likely that all drugs are poisons, we just use small doses..
I prefer "altered states of consciousness", but there are a plethora of words that can be used to provide the same context.
'The difference between poison and cure is dosage' - (Either Heraclitus or Paracelcus, depends on who's admining your internet)
UGK ate so many shrimp, he got iodine poisoning. But shrimp are not intrinsically bad. LoL
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Ferdinando
Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,753
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Re: What is it about intoxication? [Re: DoctorJ]
#25081750 - 03/22/18 07:35 AM (6 years, 28 days ago) |
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I think drugs are like something that deconditiones us, that repgrograms us. we have a programming. drugs can be kind to our programming I think, but it can also be too much like that we come to think that things don't exist or something, like make us crazy and then it's drug abuse, I agree it is largely about quantity (frequency and dose).
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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feevers
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Re: What is it about intoxication? [Re: Ferdinando]
#25082316 - 03/22/18 12:00 PM (6 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Ferdinando said: I think drugs are like something that deconditiones us, that repgrograms us. we have a programming. drugs can be kind to our programming I think, but it can also be too much like that we come to think that things don't exist or something, like make us crazy and then it's drug abuse, I agree it is largely about quantity (frequency and dose).
So in that case, what do you think is doing the initial programming?
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RJ Tubs 202
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Re: What is it about intoxication? [Re: feevers]
#25086040 - 03/23/18 08:38 PM (6 years, 26 days ago) |
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Altering consciousness is entertaining to many people. Many children (all over the world) do it on the schoolyard.
Some kids make each other pass out. Some kids spin on playground equipment until they're so dizzy (tipsy) they can't stand upright.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
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Re: What is it about intoxication? [Re: RJ Tubs 202] 1
#25086569 - 03/24/18 05:27 AM (6 years, 26 days ago) |
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I used to hold my breath, I had a whole crew of young kids doing it with me.
-------------------- _ 🧠_
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Duncan Rowhl
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Intoxication is excursion of the mind.
Many people take a ‘trip’ away - some physically for stimuli, some solely mental.
It is a respite from complacency.
Many people who have travelled the world, haven’t moved an inch...
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