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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26409717 - 12/31/19 06:10 PM (6 months, 6 days ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
are the MP's elected representatives?
I don't have any real knowledge of the Ukrainian political system, but the process sounds analogous to an impeachment/removal or a vote of no confidence.




MPs are elected by Ukraine citizens; parliamentary elections are held independent of presidential elections -- president has to abandon the political party he is a member of upon assuming the position

the presidential election that gave Yanukovych his position was won by a margin of about 3%
Crimea voted in favour of his (previous) party in the associated parliamentary election, but had less than 50% voter turnout in the area, which was the lowest in the Ukraine parliamentary election
the turnout in Crimea was better for the presidential election, but still on the side of low average

members of his former party that were present for the vote voted yes on it, none voted no
the majority of his party did not show up to vote

my very limited knowledge of Ukrainian language has not facillitated figuring out which actual constitutencies represented by "his party" voted to remove him tho
but the number of representatives from his party that voted to remove him also outnumbers the total amount of representatives from his party for the area of Crimea
so if they were part of the party bloc that voted against him, there were other areas voting alongside them


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Tantrika]
    #26410346 - 01/01/20 02:32 AM (6 months, 6 days ago)

I'm not arguing that he wasn't voted out by parliament.  I'm arguing that doing so was unconstitutional.  Ukraine had an impeachment process that was ignored.

I think all of us agreed that Trump will never be convicted by the Senate with a 2/3 vote.  So what do you think would happen if the Senate just ignored the impeachment process and voted Trump out with a simple majority vote?


--------------------
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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26410441 - 01/01/20 04:58 AM (6 months, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I'm not arguing that he wasn't voted out by parliament.  I'm arguing that doing so was unconstitutional.  Ukraine had an impeachment process that was ignored.

I think all of us agreed that Trump will never be convicted by the Senate with a 2/3 vote.  So what do you think would happen if the Senate just ignored the impeachment process and voted Trump out with a simple majority vote?




and the reason for the vote was due to the unconstitutional actions of the President
on Feb 21 he signed an agreement with the rest of the Ukraine government to arrange new presidential elections within the year
then he fled the country in a manner that made him unable to fulfill his duties, while making a public announcement that the ability to fulfill his duties was less important than the fact that he marginally won a popular vote 4 years prior
so the Parliament voted to arrange the agreed upon presidential vote themselves

if Trump violated his constitutional duties and had to instead be removed by a simple majority vote, that would make more sense to me than waiting around to the 2020 election
especially as Republicans would have the opportunity to table a new and more reliable representative as their presidential candidate
tho comprehend that the US is attached to having their presidential elections at a certain time frame, so citizens may disagree with me due to life upheaval it may present

Quote:

Враховуючи, що Президент України В. Янукович самоусунувся від виконання конституційних повноважень, що загрожує керованості держави,  територіальній цілісності і суверенітету України,  масовому порушенню прав і свобод громадян, виходячи з обставин крайньої необхідності, виражаючи суверенну волю Українського народу, Верховна Рада України постановляє:

1. Встановити, що Президент України В. Янукович у неконституційний спосіб самоусунувся від здійснення  конституційних повноважень та є таким, що не виконує свої обов’язки.

2. Відповідно до пункту 7 частини першої статті 85 Конституції України призначити позачергові вибори Президента України на 25 травня 2014 року.

3. Ця Постанова набирає чинності з моменту її прийняття.



Quote:

Considering that the President of Ukraine V. Yanukovych has withdrawn from the exercise of constitutional powers, which threatens the controllability of the state, territorial integrity and sovereignty of Ukraine, mass violation of citizens' rights and freedoms, on the basis of the necessity of the state, expressing the sovereign will of Ukraine ,

1. To establish that the President of Ukraine V. Yanukovych, in an unconstitutional way, has withdrawn from the exercise of constitutional powers and is in a position not to perform his duties.

2. Pursuant to paragraph 7 of part one of Article 85 of the Constitution of Ukraine, to hold snap elections of the President of Ukraine for May 25, 2014.

3. This Decree shall enter into force upon its adoption.



https://zakon.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/757-18

likewise think that Manitoba's Premier should be removed from office because he spends his time in Costa Rica pretending to make commentary on the functionings of the province


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Tantrika]
    #26410814 - 01/01/20 11:52 AM (6 months, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Tantrika said:
and the reason for the vote was due to the unconstitutional actions of the President
on Feb 21 he signed an agreement with the rest of the Ukraine government to arrange new presidential elections within the year



Yes, that was a deal he made with Parliament with the hopes of ending the bloodshed in Kiev.

Quote:

Tantrika said:
then he fled the country in a manner that made him unable to fulfill his duties



He fled the country because Ukrainians stormed his office and his home, and he feared for his life.  Is that how you think Democrats should try to get rid of Trump?

Quote:

Tantrika said:
...while making a public announcement that the ability to fulfill his duties was less important than the fact that he marginally won a popular vote 4 years prior
so the Parliament voted to arrange the agreed upon presidential vote themselves



Do you have a source for this claim?  I haven't seen it yet.

Quote:

Tantrika said:
if Trump violated his constitutional duties and had to instead be removed by a simple majority vote, that would make more sense to me than waiting around to the 2020 election
especially as Republicans would have the opportunity to table a new and more reliable representative as their presidential candidate



Are you saying if democrats threatened Trump's life and started killing people in the streets, making it difficult for Trump to work, we should vote him out?!?!?  Maybe you should try pitching that idea to democrats!

Quote:

Tantrika said:
tho comprehend that the US is attached to having their presidential elections at a certain time frame, so citizens may disagree with me due to life upheaval it may present



Democrats would like your idea, but not republicans.  Especially if Trump had already agreed to hold early elections.

Quote:

Tantrika said:
Quote:

Considering that the President of Ukraine V. Yanukovych has withdrawn from the exercise of constitutional powers, which threatens the controllability of the state, territorial integrity and sovereignty of Ukraine, mass violation of citizens' rights and freedoms, on the basis of the necessity of the state, expressing the sovereign will of Ukraine ,

1. To establish that the President of Ukraine V. Yanukovych, in an unconstitutional way, has withdrawn from the exercise of constitutional powers and is in a position not to perform his duties.

2. Pursuant to paragraph 7 of part one of Article 85 of the Constitution of Ukraine, to hold snap elections of the President of Ukraine for May 25, 2014.

3. This Decree shall enter into force upon its adoption.






Again, I'm not arguing that a vote took place, I'm arguing about the constitutionality of that vote.




Edit:  I'll go ahead and address your last point...

Quote:

Tantrika said:
likewise think that Manitoba's Premier should be removed from office because he spends his time in Costa Rica pretending to make commentary on the functionings of the province



Do you really not see the difference between someone voluntarily going to a vacation home in Costa Rica and someone being forced to leave a country because of a threat on their life by a bunch of hoodlums?


Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (01/01/20 02:14 PM)


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26411146 - 01/01/20 03:42 PM (6 months, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Tantrika said:
and the reason for the vote was due to the unconstitutional actions of the President
on Feb 21 he signed an agreement with the rest of the Ukraine government to arrange new presidential elections within the year



Yes, that was a deal he made with Parliament with the hopes of ending the bloodshed in Kiev.

...




and it is unfortunate he had such fallen popularity with Ukraine citizens that his efforts failed

now here is my deal with you
don't give a shit about this topic, went out of my way to read up on it, talk to Ukraine and Russian immigrant friends about it, despite it somewhat alienating them to address it over half a decade later
but did so in order to answer Balls relevant question
and when your arguments start getting into how you feel the Russian invasion was valid, recognize it would be pure idiocy for me to try and taunt people who left that part of the world to come to a place where they are free from it
so have no intention of getting in to pages of debate with you where you try and inch positions into your favour

want to ignore the unconstitutional actions of him fleeing and focus on the issue as Parliament was the ones in the wrong in your eyes, because they took control of the situation he abandoned,
that is fine you are entitled to your opinion

but while old Russia-related political propaganda issues are your main point of interest,
am personally more interested in vidya games, and plan to spend the next few hundred hours of my spare time replaying Witcher 3
it's a Polish game about being a monster hunter for hire in medieval Poland
while dealing with the social reprecussions of a large imperial force systematically fighting and occupying the area

Yenneferrrrrrrr:heart:


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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26411178 - 01/01/20 04:06 PM (6 months, 6 days ago)

I’m developing a video game. This is a diagram of the storyline so far. The hero - Hawk - is trapped in a bubble/universe where logic doesn’t work and facts change depending on the situation. The best part is, no one ever wins! Super-unique concept. What do you think?

• Hawk

*tumbleweeds*

-—-—-—-
LV 94 Detachment (steel wall)
-—-—-—-
^^^
Facts and logic
^^^
•Reality


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: feldman114] * 1
    #26411185 - 01/01/20 04:13 PM (6 months, 5 days ago)

I kind of want to play this game now, if only to meet...


Yeeeennnneeeeffeeerrrrr


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"Real change never happens from the top down, but from the bottom up. The American Revolution, Civil Rights movement, Women's Suffage, etc' - Bernie Sanders
Every one of you should see this video.
"Not to be a dick but we grow felonies and are adults here. And that's the real answer!" - Trusted Cultivator


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #26411193 - 01/01/20 04:20 PM (6 months, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
I kind of want to play this game now, if only to meet...


Yeeeennnneeeeffeeerrrrr




It's a game of choices
the biggest being

Yen or Triss?


cannot relate much to Geralt (the playable character)
but love both Yennefer and Triss as examples of empowered women :awesomenod:
find Yennefer to be the relatable one tho; traumatic childhood, high scale academic teaching, works to mold her image into a more attractive one using magic because she was born ugly and freakish :uhoh:

soon as my pizza is finished, am going to get to work cutting the head off the game's first Gryphon

it's apparently got a netflix series now; but do not have netflix to be able to watch it myself


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Offlinefeldman114
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Tantrika]
    #26411198 - 01/01/20 04:25 PM (6 months, 5 days ago)

The series is pretty dope, but they butchered yenifer’s character compared to the books


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Tantrika]
    #26411312 - 01/01/20 05:43 PM (6 months, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Tantrika said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
That was a deal he made with Parliament with the hopes of ending the bloodshed in Kiev.



and it is unfortunate he had such fallen popularity with Ukraine citizens that his efforts failed



I realize that Yanukovych was very unpopular in Kiev and Western Ukraine.  But Ukraine was more than just those areas.

It's kind of like if Washington DC put Biden in charge with a coup, they might be perfectly happy, but Texans may have a very different point of view.

Quote:

Tantrika said:
now here is my deal with you
don't give a shit about this topic, went out of my way to read up on it, talk to Ukraine and Russian immigrant friends about it, despite it somewhat alienating them to address it over half a decade later
but did so in order to answer Balls relevant question



And I sincerely appreciate what you added to the discussion, I was just filling in some things that you missed.

Quote:

Tantrika said:
and when your arguments start getting into how you feel the Russian invasion was valid, recognize it would be pure idiocy for me to try and taunt people who left that part of the world to come to a place where they are free from it
so have no intention of getting in to pages of debate with you where you try and inch positions into your favour



Again, I realize that people in Kiev and Western Ukraine hated Yanukovych.  And we know for a fact that the Ukrainian economy took a steep nosedive after the coup, while the Crimean economy did quite well.  I can understand why people left.

Quote:

Tantrika said:
want to ignore the unconstitutional actions of him fleeing and focus on the issue as Parliament was the ones in the wrong in your eyes, because they took control of the situation he abandoned,
that is fine you are entitled to your opinion



Are you arguing that Yanukovych actually "abandoned" his position while his life was being threatened by protesters?  That he should have risked taking a bullet to the head?

I totally get that the Ukrainians you talked with hate his guts, but what about people in Crimea, like the ones I spoke with?  Should they not get a say in their country's leadership?


You don't have to answer if you don't want.  But I think it's important to bring up both points of view for a more complete understanding of the situation.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26411477 - 01/01/20 07:57 PM (6 months, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Tantrika said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
That was a deal he made with Parliament with the hopes of ending the bloodshed in Kiev.



and it is unfortunate he had such fallen popularity with Ukraine citizens that his efforts failed



I realize that Yanukovych was very unpopular in Kiev and Western Ukraine.  But Ukraine was more than just those areas.

It's kind of like if Washington DC put Biden in charge with a coup, they might be perfectly happy, but Texans may have a very different point of view.
...




and as stated, areas previously associated with supporting him voted for his removal
it's like if Texans decided they wanted a new vote, so they swung the impeachment into bipartisan support, but Nevadans have a very different point of view

it is also not like putting Biden in charge with a coup, but recognize that you like the prospect that you could use a scare tactic to try and garner support from readers
it's more like removing Trump from power and leaving Pence in charge for a few months from February to the vote in May, when Bernie (read: an idependent) would go on to get elected in the subsequent popular vote

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Tantrika said:
and when your arguments start getting into how you feel the Russian invasion was valid, recognize it would be pure idiocy for me to try and taunt people who left that part of the world to come to a place where they are free from it
so have no intention of getting in to pages of debate with you where you try and inch positions into your favour



Again, I realize that people in Kiev and Western Ukraine hated Yanukovych.  And we know for a fact that the Ukrainian economy took a steep nosedive after the coup, while the Crimean economy did quite well.  I can understand why people left.
...




Already inching; it's not about the Ukraine election, it's about getting to a point where you can talk about how justified Crimea was to leave
Crimea is resource rich

The US would likely love to profit from oil-rich Alberta wanting to leave Canada because Justin Trudeau won again

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Tantrika said:
want to ignore the unconstitutional actions of him fleeing and focus on the issue as Parliament was the ones in the wrong in your eyes, because they took control of the situation he abandoned,
that is fine you are entitled to your opinion



Are you arguing that Yanukovych actually "abandoned" his position while his life was being threatened by protesters?  That he should have risked taking a bullet to the head?

I totally get that the Ukrainians you talked with hate his guts, but what about people in Crimea, like the ones I spoke with?  Should they not get a say in their country's leadership?


You don't have to answer if you don't want.  But I think it's important to bring up both points of view for a more complete understanding of the situation.




They did get a say; if your implication is that you are aware of which members of Yanukovych's party supported his removal and it was not Crimea
then is your objection that the Crimean MPs refused to engage in the parliamentary vote they were to act as representatives for the area in?

or are you trying to tell me you are upset that Crimea didn't get to vote for his replacement because they had already been annexed by Russia?

also, it's Ukraine adjacent
but among my friends is a man of ethnic Ukraine background who grew up and lived in Russia, married a Russian woman, served in the Russian army
and won't talk further about his army time than that it was the worst experiences of his life, then he kind of gets into the thousand yard stare zone
loves photography now tho; talks about how thankful he is that in Canada he can go out "hunting" without a gun just taking pictures

so, as such, fully recognize that very different personality types choose to stay in a region or go when things like annexation take place
it's like how Ethnic Tibetans fled Tibet and the area is populated by Han Chinese


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Tantrika]
    #26411621 - 01/01/20 10:12 PM (6 months, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Already inching; it's not about the Ukraine election, it's about getting to a point where you can talk about how justified Crimea was to leave
Crimea is resource rich




I found falcons twitter


--------------------
I am a violent pusher of the neo-marxist SJW agenda to destroy society.


Edited by koods (01/01/20 10:23 PM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Tantrika]
    #26411630 - 01/01/20 10:24 PM (6 months, 5 days ago)

I appreciate your continued discussion.  :thumbup:  :heart:

Quote:

Tantrika said:
as stated, areas previously associated with supporting him voted for his removal



Again, I'm not disagreeing that the vote happened.  Ukrainian MPs feared for their lives just as Yanukovych did.  Parliamentary brawls frequently broke out against pro-Russia MPs:



A hundred people had already been killed in the streets.  And CNN even reported on pro-Russian MPs getting murdered in Ukraine.

Quote:

Tantrika said:
it is also not like putting Biden in charge with a coup, but recognize that you like the prospect that you could use a scare tactic to try and garner support from readers
it's more like removing Trump from power and leaving Pence in charge for a few months from February to the vote in May, when Bernie (read: an idependent) would go on to get elected in the subsequent popular vote



Again, Yanukovych had already agreed to hold an early election.  But it seems Western Ukraine didn't want to risk another pro-Russia president.

Quote:

Tantrika said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I realize that people in Kiev and Western Ukraine hated Yanukovych.  And we know for a fact that the Ukrainian economy took a steep nosedive after the coup, while the Crimean economy did quite well.  I can understand why people left.



Already inching; it's not about the Ukraine election, it's about getting to a point where you can talk about how justified Crimea was to leave
Crimea is resource rich



But I DON'T think Crimea was justified to leave until AFTER the Ukrainian coup (which is when they finally did vote to leave).

Quote:

Tantrika said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Are you arguing that Yanukovych actually "abandoned" his position while his life was being threatened by protesters?  That he should have risked taking a bullet to the head?

I totally get that the Ukrainians you talked with hate his guts, but what about people in Crimea, like the ones I spoke with?  Should they not get a say in their country's leadership?



They did get a say; if your implication is that you are aware of which members of Yanukovych's party supported his removal and it was not Crimea
then is your objection that the Crimean MPs refused to engage in the parliamentary vote they were to act as representatives for the area in?

or are you trying to tell me you are upset that Crimea didn't get to vote for his replacement because they had already been annexed by Russia?



I'm saying the pro-Russia MPs feared for their lives; some voted with Kiev, many stayed away from parliament.

Quote:

Tantrika said:
among my friends is a man of ethnic Ukraine background who grew up and lived in Russia, married a Russian woman, served in the Russian army
and won't talk further about his army time than that it was the worst experiences of his life, then he kind of gets into the thousand yard stare zone
loves photography now tho; talks about how thankful he is that in Canada he can go out "hunting" without a gun just taking pictures

so, as such, fully recognize that very different personality types choose to stay in a region or go when things like annexation take place



Can I ask when he left Russia?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26411682 - 01/01/20 11:27 PM (6 months, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
...But it seems Western Ukraine didn't want to risk another pro-Russia president.
...




Apparently Eastern Ukraine did not want to either

while Yanukovych only beat Tymoshenko by 11% first round and 3% second round (when it was reduced to just the two of them)


Poroshenko beat her by 42% in the first round, and garnered so much popular support all across the country that they did not need to hold a second round

Poroshenko argued that the Russian rebellions were not indicative of the larger Ukraine population


tho he would go on to massively lose second (around 50% difference) to a 2019 candidate who wanted to increase ties with the EU and NATO

which seems to reinforce the idea that the majority of the voting population does not support pro-Russian positions

respect and relate to the position you hold -- while you travelled to Crimea and came back supporting positions you found citizens there espousing
personally moved to Québec for a portion of my life, and still argue for their independence from my country in the manner citizens there were espousing
:cookiemonster:

but it is like you said, it is important to have both sides
and after a good year+ of seeing you argue a pro-Russia side to things
decided to find out what the other side of the issue looked like

honestly tho, way more interesting than Yanukovych abandoning his duties
is how much effort his government made to lock up the political opponent he only beat by 3%
Quote:

On 12 May 2010, Ukraine's prosecutor's office illegally re-opened a 2004 criminal case, which had been closed by the Supreme Court of Ukraine in January 2005 against Tymoshenko regarding accusations that she had tried to bribe Supreme Court judges. As she left the prosecutor's office on 12 May, Tymoshenko told journalists she had been summoned to see investigators again on 17 May, and she linked the move to Russian President Medvedev's visit to Ukraine on 17 and 18 May 2010.[267][268] Tymoshenko also claimed that she was told by "all the offices of the Prosecutor General's Office" that President Yanukovych had personally instructed the Prosecutor General's Office to find any grounds to prosecute her.[269] In a press conference on 12 May, President Yanukovych's representative in the Verkhovna Rada, Yury Miroshnychenko, dismissed Tymoshenko's statement about Yanukovych's personal interest in prosecuting her. "Yanukovych is against political repression for criticism of the regime," Miroshnychenko stated.[270]

On 15 December 2010, the General Prosecutor's Office instituted a criminal case against Tymoshenko, alleging that she misused funds received by Ukraine within the framework of the Kyoto Protocol. She was officially charged on 20 December 2010.[271][272][273][274] Tymoshenko denied the money had been spent on pensions, insisting it was still at the disposal of the environment ministry. She called the investigation against her a witch-hunt.[272] According to government officials, the criminal case against Tymoshenko was a legitimate attempt to uncover corruption by the previous administration.[272] In the case of "Kyoto money" American experts "Covington & Burling" and "BDO USA" stated the following: "the Documents that we were able to see, clearly point out that the Kyoto Target balance account in the amount of approximately 3.3 billion on the date of receipt remained unchanged throughout the period that is considered, and that, moreover, Kyoto funds have not been touched at all in 2009. Since the balance of this account remained unchanged on the date of receipt, any accusations that Prime Minister Tymoshenko "used" these funds contrary to their intended purpose, are obviously false".[275] On 7 August 2014, the Chairman of the State Treasury service Tatiana Slyuz confirmed that the Tymoshenko government has never spent "Kyoto money", the funds were on special accounts and in 2010 were transferred to the Yanukovych government.[276] Tymoshenko was not arrested, but ordered not to leave Kiev while the inquiry was under way.[277][278] In the same case, the environment minister in the second Tymoshenko Government, Georgiy Filipchuk, was detained.[279] Filipchuk was the third minister from this government to face criminal charges since its fall in March 2010 (prosecutors charged former Interior Minister Yuriy Lutsenko with abuse of office in early December 2010, and former economy minister Bohdan Danylyshyn was detained in the Czech Republic in October 2010 on similar charges).[279] Lawmakers of BYuT blocked the rostrum and presidium of the Verkhovna Rada the next day in protest against this.[280] That same day, the European People's Party issued a statement in which it "condemns the growth of aggressive, politically motivated pressure by the Ukrainian authorities on the opposition and its leader Yulia Tymoshenko."[281] Tymoshenko dismissed the probe as "terror against the opposition by President Yanukovych."[282] Earlier that month, Ukraine's Prosecutor General Viktor Pshonka had stated that there were no political reasons for the interrogations of the opposition leaders Tymoshenko, Lutsenko and Oleksandr Turchynov.[283]

New corruption charges against Tymoshenko were filed on 27 January 2011.[284][285] She was accused of using 1,000 medical vehicles for campaigning in the presidential elections of 2010.[284][285] According to Tymoshenko, the charges were false and part of "Yanukovych's campaign to silence the opposition."[284][285] Subsequently, in 2010, the results of the audit of the accounts chamber revealed that the acquisition of these vehicles was provided for from 2008 in the article 87 of the Budget code, the State budget-2009 and article 13 of the Law of Ukraine "On state target programs". In June 2011, the case on the "Kyoto money" and of medical assistance vehicles to the village were suspended — after auditing company "BDO USA", which has branches in over one hundred countries around the world, and a large law firm "Covington & Burling" investigated these cases and stated that they "are not worth the paper on which they are written."[286][287]

A third criminal case against Tymoshenko in connection with alleged abuse of power during the 2009 Russia–Ukraine gas dispute was opened on 10 April 2011.[288][289] This case was labelled "absurd" by Tymoshenko.[289] On 24 May 2011, prosecutors charged her in connection with this (third criminal) case.[290] She was not arrested.[290][291]

On 26 April 2011, Tymoshenko sued businessman Dmytro Firtash and Swiss-based RosUkrEnergo in a US District Court in Manhattan, accusing them of "defrauding Ukraine's citizenry by manipulating an arbitration court ruling" and "undermining the rule of law in Ukraine" in connection with a 2010 international arbitration court ruling in Stockholm that ordered Ukraine's state energy company Naftogaz to pay RosUkrEnergo 11 billion cubic meters (bcm) of natural gas to compensate for fuel it had "expropriated" plus 1.1 billion bcm as a penalty.[292][293]

Throughout Yanukovych's presidency, Tymoshenko stayed very critical of his and the Azarov Government's performances and intentions which, among others, she accused of selling out to Russia and of being a "funeral of democracy."[294][295][296][297] Tymoshenko has accused "many of Ukraine's neighbours" of turning a blind eye to "Yanukovych's strangulation of Ukraine's democracy, some openly celebrate the supposed 'stability' that his regime has imposed."[298] She believes "Ukraine can return to a democratic path of development only with an active civil society and support from the international community."[299]



Quote:

In May 2010, the Ukrainian General Prosecutor's office started a number of criminal cases against Yulia Tymoshenko which prevented her from normal political activity and from international travel to her allies in the West. The European Parliament passed a resolution condemning Yanukovych government for persecution of Tymoshenko as well as for prosecution in the "Gas case" and other cases against her and her ministers.[302] On 24 June 2011, a trial started in the "gas case", concerning a contract signed in 2009 with Russian gas company Gazprom to supply natural gas to Ukraine. Tymoshenko was charged with abuse of power and embezzlement, as the court found the deal anti-economic for the country and abusive.[303]

Tymoshenko's trial (she was charged in May 2011) for abuse of office concerning a natural gas imports contract signed with Russia in January 2009 started on 24 June 2011 in Kiev.[304][305] A number of criminal cases were also opened against former officials from the second Tymoshenko Government.[306][307][nb 8] According to Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych, those cases were indiscriminately made to fight corruption in Ukraine.[308][309][310] Former President Viktor Yushchenko testified against Tymoshenko during the trial, which he called "a normal judicial process."[311] The trial against Tymoshenko has been referred to as "selective justice" and "political persecution" in statements by the U.S., Russia, United Kingdom, Germany, Italy, Spain and other European countries; in statements by the European Union, NATO, the European People's Party; and in statements by human rights organizations such as Transparency International, Freedom House, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch.[312] Following her conviction, Tymoshenko remained under criminal investigation for ten criminal acts;[313] Ukrainian prosecutors have claimed Tymoshenko committed even more criminal acts.[314]

Early in July 2011, the Ukrainian security service (SBU) opened a new criminal investigation into alleged non-delivery of goods by United Energy Systems of Ukraine (in 1996) to Russia for $405.5 million, the SBU maintains that Russia may claim this sum to the State budget of Ukraine (this criminal case was closed in Russia in December 2005 due to lapse of time).[60]

On 11 October 2011, the court found Tymoshenko guilty of abuse of power and sentenced her to seven years in prison, banned her from seeking elected office for her period of imprisonment, and ordered her to pay the state $188 million.[315][316][317] She was convicted for exceeding her powers as Prime Minister by ordering Naftogaz to sign the gas deal with Russia in 2009.[317][317] Tymoshenko did appeal the sentence, which she compared to Stalin's Great Terror,[315][317] on 24 October 2011.[318]

A 2001 criminal case on state funds embezzlement and tax evasion charges against Tymoshenko was reopened in Ukraine on 24 October 2011.[62]

On 4 November 2011, the Ukrainian tax police resumed four criminal cases against Tymoshenko.[319] She was charged for these cases on 10 November 2011.[320][321][322]

Tymoshenko was re-arrested (while in prison) on 8 December 2011, after a Ukrainian court ordered her indefinite arrest as part of the investigation of alleged tax evasion and theft of government funds (between 1996 and 2000) by United Energy Systems of Ukraine. Again the European Union showed concern over this.[323][324][325][326][327]

On 23 December 2011, Tymoshenko lost her appeal against her sentence for abuse of power.[328][329] She and her lawyers had boycotted the appeal proceedings,[328] claiming that the "Judicial system and justice are totally non-existent in Ukraine today."[330] Tymoshenko has lodged a complaint against the verdict at the European Court of Human Rights, which was given priority treatment by the court.[331]

On 30 December 2011, Tymoshenko was transferred to the Kachanivska penal colony in Kharkiv.[332][333]

In early January 2012, Tymoshenko's husband Oleksandr Tymoshenko was granted asylum in the Czech Republic, which he had requested at the end of the previous year.[334][335]

In early April 2012, the General Prosecutor's Office began examining the possible involvement of Tymoshenko and former Prime Minister Pavlo Lazarenko in the murder of Donetsk businessman Olexandr Momot in 1996.[336]

A trial concerning alleged misappropriating public funds of United Energy Systems of Ukraine started on 19 April 2012 in Kharkiv.[60][337] Tymoshenko refused to attend the trial, citing problems with her health.[337] Tymoshenko was then moved against her will from Kachanivska prison to a hospital where she began a hunger strike on 20 April to protest – according to her lawyer Serhiy Vlasenko – "what is happening in the country and what is happening to her in prison."[338] She ended the hunger strike on 9 May 2012.[339] Since 9 May 2012, she has been receiving treatment at the hospital after being diagnosed with a spinal disc herniation.[340][341] The Supreme Court of Ukraine upheld the verdict against Tymoshenko on 29 August 2012.[342]

From 29 October to 16 November 2012, Tymoshenko was again on a hunger strike to protest vote rigging in the October 2012 Ukrainian parliamentary election.[343][344]

Fatherland United Opposition nominated Tymoshenko as its candidate for the Ukrainian presidential elections of 2015 on 7 December 2012.[345] On 14 June 2013, the congress of her party approved the decision to nominate her as its candidate in the 2015 Ukrainian presidential election.[346][nb 9]

On 18 January 2013, Tymoshenko was notified that she was a suspect in the murder of businessman and lawmaker Yevhen Shcherban, his wife and two other people in 1996.[348] In May 2013, the Shcherban murder case was suspended.[349]

From 25 November to 6 December 2013 (during the Euromaidan protests), Tymoshenko was again on a hunger strike in protest of "President Yanukovych's reluctance to sign the DCFTA" on 6 December.[350][351][352][353]



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yulia_Tymoshenko

that's straight crazy stuff; unlike Trump, this guy actually made good on locking her up
:lol:

arguably even more wild is the fact that with all this scandal and potential corruption swirling around, she still somehow garners fairly regular support (she came in third in presidential 2019)


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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: koods] * 1
    #26411720 - 01/02/20 12:08 AM (6 months, 5 days ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Already inching; it's not about the Ukraine election, it's about getting to a point where you can talk about how justified Crimea was to leave
Crimea is resource rich




I found falcons twitter





That's my twitter...


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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Tantrika]
    #26411779 - 01/02/20 01:51 AM (6 months, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Tantrika said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
...But it seems Western Ukraine didn't want to risk another pro-Russia president....



Apparently Eastern Ukraine did not want to either

while Yanukovych only beat Tymoshenko by 11% first round and 3% second round (when it was reduced to just the two of them)



But as you've just shown, Eastern Ukraine did elect a 'pro-Russia' candidate in 2010 (I put 'pro Russia' in quotes because Yanukovych was actually anti-Russia, until he realized Russia offered Ukraine a better deal than the EU):
Quote:

Yanukovich cajoled and bullied anyone who pushed for Ukraine to have closer ties to Russia.
.
Less than three months later Yanukovich spurned the EU, embraced Russian President Vladimir Putin and struck a deal on December 17 for a bailout of his country. Russia will invest $15 billion in Ukraine’s government debt and reduce by about a third the price that Naftogaz, Ukraine’s national energy company, pays for Russian gas.... the unwillingness of the EU and International Monetary Fund to be flexible in their demands of Ukraine also had an effect, making them less attractive partners.
.
Yanukovich was also offended when he found out Kiev would not be offered a firm prospect of full membership of the EU; he felt Ukraine was being treated as a lesser country to “even Poland”, with which it shares a border.



Western Ukraine was upset with him because they thought closer ties with the EU would raise their economic status like other EU countries.  They soon learned that was a bad assumption.

Quote:

Tantrika said:
Poroshenko beat her by 42% in the first round, and garnered so much popular support all across the country that they did not need to hold a second round
Poroshenko argued that the Russian rebellions were not indicative of the larger Ukraine population



I think Yulia Tymoshenko is not pro-Russia:
Quote:

Yulia Timoshenko said:
My vision of Ukraine in the future is as a member of the European Union and a fully fledged member of NATO. You know very well that pro-Russian President Yanukovych put me in prison. If I were pro-Russian and Putin told Yanukovych not to put me in prison, Yanukovych would never have done it.




And Eastern Ukraine was in a civil war and most polling stations were shut down.  Crimea didn't participate in the vote, so we don't really know what the results would have been if they were both included.

Quote:

Tantrika said:
tho he would go on to massively lose second (around 50% difference) to a 2019 candidate who wanted to increase ties with the EU and NATO
which seems to reinforce the idea that the majority of the voting population does not support pro-Russian positions



Again, the votes no longer included Crimea and Eastern Ukraine was still in a civil war.

Quote:

Tantrika said:
respect and relate to the position you hold -- while you travelled to Crimea and came back supporting positions you found citizens there espousing
personally moved to Québec for a portion of my life, and still argue for their independence from my country in the manner citizens there were espousing
:cookiemonster:



Same respect to you.  :hi5:  I know you've put a lot of time into this discussion.

Once Canada doesn't let you choose your own premier, I'll support your independence.  :mushroom2:

Quote:

Tantrika said:
but it is like you said, it is important to have both sides
and after a good year+ of seeing you argue a pro-Russia side to things
decided to find out what the other side of the issue looked like



Have I been wrong about something on Russia?  :shrug:

I'm saying removing Yanukovich without following their own impeachment process appears unconstitutional.

Quote:

Tantrika said:
honestly tho, way more interesting than Yanukovych abandoning his duties...



"Abandoning his duties"?  Do you need proof his life was being threatened and he was forced to leave?  Because that's easy.

Quote:

Tantrika said:
...is how much effort his government made to lock up the political opponent he only beat by 3%



I'll absolutely agree with you here.  All Ukrainian politicians appeared to be extremely corrupt, until (maybe?) Zelensky.


--------------------
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26411896 - 01/02/20 05:32 AM (6 months, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Tantrika said:
respect and relate to the position you hold -- while you travelled to Crimea and came back supporting positions you found citizens there espousing
personally moved to Québec for a portion of my life, and still argue for their independence from my country in the manner citizens there were espousing
:cookiemonster:



Same respect to you.  :hi5:  I know you've put a lot of time into this discussion.

Once Canada doesn't let you choose your own premier, I'll support your independence.  :mushroom2:

...




Am in no way looking for Manitoba independence, and no longer live in Québec
and Manitoba is famous for being the "keystone province" that holds Canada together, so no one here is looking to leave
except the Premier who doesn't like participating in Manitobans way of life, so instead commentates on the runnings of the province from his pool side in Costa Rica

however, Québec has a very long history of independence movements and rebellions against English rule
it's a significant cultural thing in Québec's case, going back 150-200+ years
so large, in fact, that it got one of my ancestors killed as a French rebel leader

do not personally support independence for Alberta,
where the citizens argue they should not be involved in supporting the rest of Canada because they are resource rich
because there is not a historical cultural gulf

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Tantrika said:
but it is like you said, it is important to have both sides
and after a good year+ of seeing you argue a pro-Russia side to things
decided to find out what the other side of the issue looked like



Have I been wrong about something on Russia?  :shrug:
....




you won't treat it as "wrong" because you convinced Balls to support you in a thunderdome style argument against Enlil
but you were wrong about NATO exercises being held in "close" proximity in Russia

and you attempted to tell me as a result of your position that it would have been logistically sound for a bunch of European NATO allies to send soldiers and equipment across the pond to Canada instead

so, yeah, your inaccuracy and attempts to portray Russia in a particular light at times has built up enough skepticism for me to look into other sides of issues

in this case, it has resulted in finding out that Yanukovych had become so massively unpopular with Ukraine citizens that it threw the country into upheaval
and his removal after abandoning his duties served to maintain the will of the majority of Ukrainian populace, and was followed by the popular election of a new President within a few short months
while you have been painting it as coup that overthrew popular Ukrainian leadership

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
And Eastern Ukraine was in a civil war and most polling stations were shut down.  Crimea didn't participate in the vote, so we don't really know what the results would have been if they were both included.





fair point, it is entirely possible that if Russia did not annex Crimea, they too would have voted in favour of anti-Russian candidates that united the country
there certainly would not be enough pro-Russian support to outweigh the large win margins that the anti-Russian candidates won by

but who knows, maybe if Russia didn't annex Crimea, the citizens wouldn't feel endangered enough by imperial aggressions to have provided such uniform voting across the country


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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Tantrika]
    #26412480 - 01/02/20 12:50 PM (6 months, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Tantrika said:
you convinced Balls to support you in a thunderdome style argument against Enlil
but you were wrong about NATO exercises being held in "close" proximity in Russia

and you attempted to tell me as a result of your position that it would have been logistically sound for a bunch of European NATO allies to send soldiers and equipment across the pond to Canada instead

so, yeah, your inaccuracy and attempts to portray Russia in a particular light at times has built up enough skepticism for me to look into other sides of issues



For those who don't remember that discussion, I argued that Russia was correct to consider NATO exercises being held in Norway (a country that shares a border with Russia) "near" Russia, since the US argues that Russia being anywhere in the Western hemisphere is near enough to be a threat (see the discussion here and here).

Do you not see the double standard?

Quote:

Tantrika said:
in this case, it has resulted in finding out that Yanukovych had become so massively unpopular with Ukraine citizens that it threw the country into upheaval
and his removal after abandoning his duties served to maintain the will of the majority of Ukrainian populace, and was followed by the popular election of a new President within a few short months



Once again, he became massively unpopular with the citizens of Kiev and Western Ukraine.  He didn't "abandon" anything, he fled for his life as he was threatened by protesters and his convoy was even shot at.  His home and office were overtaken by protesters.  I provided evidence showing that MPs who supported Russia were bullied, threatened, and even killed.  Those that stayed in Kiev had to take an anti-Russia position for their own safety.

Quote:

Tantrika said:
while you have been painting it as coup that overthrew popular Ukrainian leadership



It was clearly a coup.  I've shown this evidence of high level US politicians like John McCain and Victoria Nuland rallying people in Kiev against Yanukovych, I've discussed Victoria Nuland’s intercepted phone call and Obama’s admission to name just a few of the many sources of evidence.

Quote:

Tantrika said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Eastern Ukraine was in a civil war and most polling stations were shut down.  Crimea didn't participate in the vote, so we don't really know what the results would have been if they were both included.




fair point, it is entirely possible that if Russia did not annex Crimea, they too would have voted in favour of anti-Russian candidates that united the country
there certainly would not be enough pro-Russian support to outweigh the large win margins that the anti-Russian candidates won by

but who knows, maybe if Russia didn't annex Crimea, the citizens wouldn't feel endangered enough by imperial aggressions to have provided such uniform voting across the country



That's actually a fair point, but it doesn't negate the fact that there was a US supported transition of power that didn't follow Ukraine's constitutional impeachment process.


Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (01/02/20 01:17 PM)


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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26412511 - 01/02/20 01:16 PM (6 months, 5 days ago)

Quote:

His home and office were overtaken by protesters.




Oh no he had to abandon his estate and private zoo. Come on dude. The guy was the epitome of post soviet corruption. He was ripping off the people of Ukraine and they finally got fed up. It’s funny how you don’t give a shit about wholesale corruption when it doesn’t fit your narrative.

Description of his estate:

Quote:

The estate is over 140 ha (350 acres) and is situated on the banks of the Dnieper river (Kiev Reservoir)[8] in the village of Novi Petrivtsi, Vyshhorod Raion.[9][10][11] There is a yacht pier, an equestrian club, a shooting range, a tennis court and other recreational facilities[12] as well as hunting grounds.[13] The estate also has an automobile museum displaying some of Yanukovich's former exotic cars, a golf course, an ostrich farm, a dog kennel, numerous fountains and man-made lakes, a helicopter pad, and a small church. The entire complex is enclosed by a five-meter tall fence along the perimeter.[14]




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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: koods]
    #26412516 - 01/02/20 01:19 PM (6 months, 5 days ago)



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