|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,515
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#25063147 - 03/14/18 02:29 PM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
You're missing his point and mine. IF the FSB did it, the Russian spies know about it. That makes the motive solid vis a vis a Russian perp theory.
There's always a possibility someone else did it, but that doesn't undercut the fact that the Russians have a motive and part of that motive includes sending a message to current Russian spies.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,515
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Will Scarlet]
#25063152 - 03/14/18 02:30 PM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Will Scarlet said: The guy was a double agent, why should we give a shit who killed him?
He's not dead. Nonetheless, to answer your question, we care because his daughter, who wasn't a double agent, was also attacked.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 8 months, 8 days
|
Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Enlil]
#25063157 - 03/14/18 02:32 PM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Will Scarlet said: The guy was a double agent, why should we give a shit who killed him?
He's not dead. Nonetheless, to answer your question, we care because his daughter, who wasn't a double agent, was also attacked.
All the more reason to guarantee a hostile reaction against Putin if Britain did it.
There's good arguments for both sides. You can't just ignore the other side.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,515
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#25063162 - 03/14/18 02:33 PM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Also more of a deterrent for any other spies thinking of switching loyalties.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 8 months, 8 days
|
Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Enlil]
#25063164 - 03/14/18 02:35 PM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Enlil said: Also more of a deterrent for any other spies thinking of switching loyalties.
Exaclty. You see, there are arguments for both sides, not just one.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
|
koods
Ribbit



Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 107,128
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 1 hour, 1 minute
|
Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#25063193 - 03/14/18 02:51 PM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Someone used a chemical weapon in your country. If a Muslim did that there would be wall to wall terrorism coverage.
--------------------
NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,515
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#25063214 - 03/14/18 02:57 PM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Enlil said: Also more of a deterrent for any other spies thinking of switching loyalties.
Exaclty. You see, there are arguments for both sides, not just one. 
There are, but the relative strengths of those arguments is what really matters. An argument that the UK poisoned its own residents and citizens for purposes of making Putin look bad is simply not as strong as the argument that Russia tried to kill a traitor and his daughter as a deterrent to other potential traitors.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
koods
Ribbit



Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 107,128
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 1 hour, 1 minute
|
Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#25063215 - 03/14/18 02:58 PM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
koods said: Russian spies know exactly who did this. That is the point.
Do you have evidence they know, or is that just speculation?
This is the whole point of my argument. Almost no one knows what happened, but some here like to make believe that they do.
The British seem to know exactly what happened. Just because you aren't given their intelligence doesn't mean they are making it up.
--------------------
NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
|
koods
Ribbit



Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 107,128
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 1 hour, 1 minute
|
Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Enlil]
#25063233 - 03/14/18 03:00 PM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Enlil said: Also more of a deterrent for any other spies thinking of switching loyalties.
Exaclty. You see, there are arguments for both sides, not just one. 
There are, but the relative strengths of those arguments is what really matters. An argument that the UK poisoned its own residents and citizens for purposes of making Putin look bad is simply not as strong as the argument that Russia tried to kill a traitor and his daughter as a deterrent to other potential traitors.
Let's not ignore the fact that this kind of shit HAPPENS ALL THE TIME. Russian intelligence agents and former agents die from poisoning, or gunshots or falling out windows or seem to just die for no reason at an extraordinary rate.
--------------------
NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
|
koods
Ribbit



Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 107,128
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 1 hour, 1 minute
|
Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Enlil]
#25063237 - 03/14/18 03:02 PM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Enlil said: You're missing his point and mine. IF the FSB did it, the Russian spies know about it. That makes the motive solid vis a vis a Russian perp theory.
There's always a possibility someone else did it, but that doesn't undercut the fact that the Russians have a motive and part of that motive includes sending a message to current Russian spies.
Maybe a message to people who are thinking about talking to a grand jury in Washington, for example.
--------------------
NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
|
Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 8 months, 8 days
|
Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Enlil]
#25063375 - 03/14/18 04:06 PM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Enlil said: the relative strengths of those arguments is what really matters.
I agree. But how much confidence until you take action against Russia? Is 51% confidence enough? 66%? 33%???
Based on the extreme reaction from the West, I'm guessing the West did it in order to get this reaction. We certainly don't react like this when Israel assassinates people in other countries. As I've said before:
Quote:
Your motive makes no sense. If you believe they kept him alive for a spy swap, then that's the last spy swap Russia will ever get (should they be proven to be the assassins).
The timing also makes no sense. Why wait eight years after he was released from Russia to finally kill him? Why do it weeks before Putin's election, and months before the world cup in Russia?
The weapon certainly isn't unique to Russia. Novochok nerve agents were developed 50 years ago and have since been developed in Britain, the US, and Israel (among other countries, supposedly to help find an antidote).
If that's "evidence", I can provide far better evidence that the Brits did it.
Motive - The West has a motive to make Russia look bad as Russia is becoming increasingly dominant in international affairs. Russia is also nearing completion of their Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline to Europe, and the US wants the project cancelled so that the EU relies more on US gas.
Quote:
Enlil said: An argument that the UK poisoned its own residents and citizens for purposes of making Putin look bad is simply not as strong as the argument that Russia tried to kill a traitor and his daughter as a deterrent to other potential traitors.
I disagree, unless you're an irrational Russia hater. I'm curious to see how people feel about this:
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,515
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#25063377 - 03/14/18 04:08 PM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
I'm at 30% confidence, so I clicked 20-40
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 8 months, 8 days
|
Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: koods]
#25063391 - 03/14/18 04:14 PM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
koods said: The British seem to know exactly what happened. Just because you aren't given their intelligence doesn't mean they are making it up.
Jeremy Corbyn says you're wrong.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
|
Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 8 months, 8 days
|
Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Enlil]
#25063392 - 03/14/18 04:16 PM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Enlil said: I'm at 30% confidence, so I clicked 20-40
That's interesting. I clicked 40% - 60%.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,515
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#25063393 - 03/14/18 04:16 PM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
I'm a "presumption of innocence" kinda guy.
If you had asked about level of confidence that a Russian did it, it would have shot up to 70%, though.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
koods
Ribbit



Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 107,128
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 1 hour, 1 minute
|
Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#25063404 - 03/14/18 04:22 PM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
koods said: The British seem to know exactly what happened. Just because you aren't given their intelligence doesn't mean they are making it up.
Jeremy Corbyn says you're wrong. 
A twit says I'm wrong
--------------------
NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
|
Patlal
You ask too many questions



Registered: 10/09/10
Posts: 44,849
Loc: Ottawa
Last seen: 48 minutes, 57 seconds
|
Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: koods] 1
#25063411 - 03/14/18 04:25 PM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
I'm at 0 percent. I only read the news and I'm several kilometres away and I do not know who that guy was, where he's been, where he was that day, who he met etc.
Anyone of you claiming you something about this better be a cop investigating the matter.
--------------------
|
koods
Ribbit



Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 107,128
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 1 hour, 1 minute
|
Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Patlal]
#25063417 - 03/14/18 04:27 PM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Ok. We'll unless you have top secret clearance in Britain, we are all at 0.
The people who do know that information say it was Russia
--------------------
NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
Edited by koods (03/14/18 04:28 PM)
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,515
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: koods]
#25063418 - 03/14/18 04:28 PM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
That's not true. Much of it is a matter of settled history and public record.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 8 months, 8 days
|
Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: koods]
#25063423 - 03/14/18 04:30 PM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Those people said it was Russia before the investigation started.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
|
|