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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#27355249 - 06/19/21 01:52 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Boots on the ground is more than just being physically present in a place - it also implies direct participation.
For example, participants in Birthright Israel trips are physically present in Israel, but they don't have boots on the ground with regards to the Israel-Palestine conflict. Similarly, you vacationing in Crimea with your Russian wife doesn't constitute boots on the ground with regards to the Crimean occupation.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#27355279 - 06/19/21 02:13 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: Yes, authoritarian governments support foreign groups they perceive will be beneficial in maintaining/building their hegemonic influence. I think it's important to acknowledge that - dispute the influence of geopolitical forces - the small people still have individual agency. Opposition to Assad's human rights violations doesn't need to take the form of defending the USA. Opposition to US imperialism doesn't need to take the form of defending Assad. Seeing the common people as nothing more than pawns only plays into the nation-state game.
Of course, the challenge is to wade through the propaganda and misinformation in order to arrive at that point. Not always possible without having boots on the ground.
People have agency but you can bend that agency to your will if you change their material conditions. For example, if Assad was being crushed by coalition forces, and Russia and Iran backed off of their support, I could see gassing a few city blocks of insurgents in desperation.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#27355345 - 06/19/21 03:11 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: Boots on the ground is more than just being physically present in a place - it also implies direct participation.
For example, participants in Birthright Israel trips are physically present in Israel, but they don't have boots on the ground with regards to the Israel-Palestine conflict. Similarly, you vacationing in Crimea with your Russian wife doesn't constitute boots on the ground with regards to the Crimean occupation.
Yes, of course. That's why I spoke with about 50 people in Crimea who had boots on the ground. I went out of my way to ensure I spoke with people who voted against rejoining Russia. I didn't just listen to CIA talking points printed by the NY Times, as many here do.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Stable Genius
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#27355420 - 06/19/21 04:17 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Here's another great video debunking things said about the Douma incident from The Young Turks. Not for people who hate facts that can be verified:
Those here who want to discuss things in the video are welcome. But I'll bet the responses are little more than "Durrr, I don't like Jimmy Dore".
Totally worth watching, and no I don't have any questions lol no seriously, after Aaron Mate outlined and addressed pretty much most/all of the contentious ones strangely enough brought up in these threads!
At the 1.13 00 mark "politics always turns personal when you can't actually address the politics." Hmmmmm
and the Young Turks stuff... murdered by their own words, brutal
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Stable Genius]
#27355437 - 06/19/21 04:27 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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No wonder they hate him so much. 
For anyone who doesn't want to watch the whole video, watch from 1:33-2:30.
It's hilarious how upset they guys are for being called out by Aaron Mate. What's funnier still is that they don't (can't) counter his talking points, they just resort to "he's a big fat poo poo head" type of argument (or worse).
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#27355441 - 06/19/21 04:32 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: Boots on the ground is more than just being physically present in a place - it also implies direct participation.
For example, participants in Birthright Israel trips are physically present in Israel, but they don't have boots on the ground with regards to the Israel-Palestine conflict. Similarly, you vacationing in Crimea with your Russian wife doesn't constitute boots on the ground with regards to the Crimean occupation.
Yes, of course. That's why I spoke with about 50 people in Crimea who had boots on the ground. I went out of my way to ensure I spoke with people who voted against rejoining Russia. I didn't just listen to CIA talking points printed by the NY Times, as many here do.
If someone said they went to North Korea and spoke with 50 people - would you consider that to be a valid experience as well? Think about it this way, if Crimea was under Russian occupation, with local resistance movements heavily repressed, your experience could still have been exactly the same.
Sure, your experience was more meaningful than simply reading the newspaper - but that doesn't mean it constitutes direct and personal insight into the conflict. That is what I refer to when I say 'boots on the ground'.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#27355457 - 06/19/21 04:46 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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I had total freedom in Crimea - no one put any restrictions on my movement, and no one followed me. I don't know if I'd have that kind of freedom in North Korea.
Again, I went out of my way to speak with people who voted not to rejoin Russia. These people were primarily uneducated Tatars (Muslims) who were very eager to bad mouth Russia, and it was pretty clear from what they were telling that they didn't feel repressed, watched over, or restricted in any way. You would realize that if you went there and talked to as many Crimean people as I did.
Mainland Russia now has a large Muslim population, and huge mosques everywhere. It's a very free country now.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27355464 - 06/19/21 04:51 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: People have agency but you can bend that agency to your will if you change their material conditions. For example, if Assad was being crushed by coalition forces, and Russia and Iran backed off of their support, I could see gassing a few city blocks of insurgents in desperation.
There's multiple plausible hypotheses, but answering the question 'what happened in Douma?' is only relevant to those defending the legitimacy of the USA or Assad at the expense of the other. Seeing the people of Syria as pawns in that hegemonic struggle over state legitimacy can make it difficult to approach from alternative perspectives.
Kinda like trying to say 'don't lose sight of the trees for the forest'.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#27355486 - 06/19/21 05:15 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Did the 'quote' feature just break on the shroomery? The buttons over the text window don't appear to be working either. Anyway, it's not working on any of my computers or browsers right now...
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: ...answering the question 'what happened in Douma?' is only relevant to those defending the legitimacy of the USA or Assad at the expense of the other.
Maybe I'm not understanding, but are you saying if you don't keep your mouth shut about the lies the US is telling, that means you think Assad is legitimate?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#27355500 - 06/19/21 05:35 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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My point is this: We know that Assad is a dictator who is guilty of human rights violations against the people of Syria. The attack in Douma isn't necessary to reach that conclusion. On the other hand, Douma being a chemical attack by the Syrian state is necessary to justify the coalition airstrikes that followed. If Douma was a chemical attack, you gain legitimacy for coalition forces - if it wasn't, you take that legitimacy away and give it to the regime forces. That's why I said the argument is centred around "defending the legitimacy of the USA or Assad at the expense of the other."
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#27355804 - 06/19/21 10:57 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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I watched the first hour of the video about the GrayZone trip to Syria, and according to their findings, Assad's got nothing on human rights violations in Sryia compared to the United States. They said they had no minders in Syria directing them where to go or whom to talk to. Here is a brief summary of the first hour of the video:
Syria was once a stable country before the war. They had one of the best healthcare and educational systems in the Middle East before the war for regime change.
Professor Mohammad Marandi talked about how when he went to Syria back in 2011, a high level US Official (he didn't give his name since that official didn't give him permission to) said the US was embarking on regime change in Syria. One way the US stirred up the pot in Syria was by sending tens of thousands of religious extremists there, including ISIS and al-Qaida, and encouraged them to take over parts of Syria for themselves.
They said many of the Syrian people they spoke with, some of whom were originally in favor of the rebellion against Assad, found things to be far worse under the rebel leadership, who seized their businesses, forced them to do labor, and turned many women into sex slaves, in exchange for food that had been stolen from food aid supplied intended for opposition forces. These people said they understood how if they themselves got duped into a rebellion, how the average American could also be duped.
This is why Assad was just recently reelected in a landslide. People are now happy Assad defeated the religious extremists in most of the country and want to go back to what they had before. Unfortunately, the US is now imposing crippling sanctions to prevent them from doing so. The US is even trying to block aid from countries like Iran.
The US sanctions are also hurting things like the Syrian medical system. They can't buy critical medical equipment and spare parts, for example. They played a video of a US Government official saying the US would also withhold reconstruction aid unless Assad changed his behavior to be more favorable to the US. Regardless of ones opinion on Assad, it’s wrong to punish the people of Syria for the actions of it’s elected leader.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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koods
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#27355815 - 06/19/21 11:09 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
This is why Assad was just recently reelected in a landslide.
It’s a fucking dictatorship dude 🤦♂️
One of the reasons there was an armed uprising against Assad is because he crushed the protests against his dictatorship and corruption.
Quote:
Syria was once a stable country before the war. They had one of the best healthcare and educational systems in the Middle East before the war for regime change.
Syria was one of the poorest countries in the Middle East before the war started.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
Edited by koods (06/19/21 11:33 PM)
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: koods] 1
#27355901 - 06/20/21 12:39 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
koods said:
Quote:
This is why Assad was just recently reelected in a landslide.
It’s a fucking dictatorship dude 🤦♂️
One of the reasons there was an armed uprising against Assad is because he crushed the protests against his dictatorship and corruption.
Did you read my post of what the Syrian people had to say? Assad was a lot better than the religious extremist rebels that the US supported.
Quote:
koods said:
Quote:
Syria was once a stable country before the war. They had one of the best healthcare and educational systems in the Middle East before the war for regime change.
Syria was one of the poorest countries in the Middle East before the war started.
They had one of the best healthcare and educational systems in the Middle East before the war for regime change.
And what wealthy they had plummeted after the regime change war.

Stop pretending to care about the Syrian people.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#27356060 - 06/20/21 05:52 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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You're praising their Stockholm syndrome? Classy dude
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#27356118 - 06/20/21 07:47 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: People have agency but you can bend that agency to your will if you change their material conditions. For example, if Assad was being crushed by coalition forces, and Russia and Iran backed off of their support, I could see gassing a few city blocks of insurgents in desperation.
There's multiple plausible hypotheses, but answering the question 'what happened in Douma?' is only relevant to those defending the legitimacy of the USA or Assad at the expense of the other. Seeing the people of Syria as pawns in that hegemonic struggle over state legitimacy can make it difficult to approach from alternative perspectives.
Kinda like trying to say 'don't lose sight of the trees for the forest'.
That’s fair
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chopstick
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: bodhisatta] 1
#27356336 - 06/20/21 11:21 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said: You're praising their Stockholm syndrome? Classy dude
So now when you're confronted with the fact that a very large % of Syrians actually support Assad and do not believe he is a dictator you just write them all off as having Stockholm syndrome?
Classy bro
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: bodhisatta]
#27356350 - 06/20/21 11:34 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said: You're praising their Stockholm syndrome? Classy dude
I pointed out my concern of a religious extremist takeover over 3 years ago, but most of you guys insisted religious extremists are good people.
Now we know most Syrians didn't like them and would much rather live under Assad. But you're supporting the religious extremist groups over what the Syrian people say they want. Classy.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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chopstick
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: chopstick] 1
#27356352 - 06/20/21 11:35 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Do I need to start posting pics of hundreds of thousands of people partying it up in Damascus after Assad was re-elected again?
You can't call someone who has popular support among the people and who is re-elected time after time (often with international observers present) a dictator. Saying the elections are rigged is a cop-out to avoid having to admit reality. Hundreds of thousands of people took to the streets to express their joy after the last election - you can't fake that.
There are plenty of things wrong with Syria. Corruption being one of them. That still doesn't make Assad a dictator nor is he guilty of the CIA frame-ups involving chemical weapons that were distributed to terrorists, weapons the terrorists used to kill civilians (and then blamed on him.)
I think the problem here is that it is impossible for the average westerner to understand how a country so devastated by war and sanctions could reach such a high level of national unity - a level of unity they themselves have never had.
And because we don't understand it, we assume it's not possible.
But it's a totally different culture, and a totally different level of national consciousness compared to the United States.
Try telling any of the millions that voted for Assad that he is a dictator and they were co-erced into voting that way.
They'll laugh right in your fucking face.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: chopstick] 1
#27356464 - 06/20/21 12:55 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Americans like to believe that the only way a brown person would be against America is if some demonic dictator brainwashed them. It’s just standard chauvinism. “Oh dear Syrians, you only THINK you like Assad, but once we kill half your community and destroy your nation you’ll come to see that [CIA agenda] was the right way all along.”
This idea was mostly used to deflect blame away from the US when ISIS sprang up (out of nowhere I’m sure) and took over vast swaths of the levant. It couldn’t be that the West has been systematically destroying any semblance of stability in the region for over a century, or that the utter destruction of entire societies has left behind a generation of angry Muslims with no future, or that the propping up of the gulf monarchies allowed jihadi Wahhabist thought to be the only game in town for that generation. No no, it’s that ISIS is brainwashing impressionable youths and those brown kids are too stupid to withstand it.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27356497 - 06/20/21 01:20 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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The flip side of that, as I said earlier, is discounting any Syrian criticism of their own government as the product of American imperialism.
I mean, we know the guy inherited the presidency from his father (a lifelong president resulting from a military coup) and has won every election since with >90% of the vote. I believe the technical term for the Assad family's rule of Syria is a personalist dictatorship.
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