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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Enlil]
#25064542 - 03/15/18 02:26 AM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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Do you mean "evidence" "it doesn't meet the reasonable doubt standard", "There's little proof"? Or do you mean real evidence?
Based on our prior discussion below, I'll ask the Shroomery their opinion:
Quote:
Your motive makes no sense. If you believe they kept him alive for a spy swap, then that's the last spy swap Russia will ever get (should they be proven to be the assassins).
The timing also makes no sense. Why wait eight years after he was released from Russia to finally kill him? Why do it weeks before Putin's election, and months before the world cup in Russia?
The weapon certainly isn't unique to Russia. Novochok nerve agents were developed 50 years ago and have since been developed in Britain, the US, and Israel (among other countries, supposedly to help find an antidote).
If that's "evidence", I can provide far better evidence that the Brits did it.
Motive - The West has a motive to make Russia look bad as Russia is becoming increasingly dominant in international affairs. Russia is also nearing completion of their Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline to Europe, and the US wants the project cancelled so that the EU relies more on US gas.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,515
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#25064544 - 03/15/18 02:28 AM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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It's real evidence. Whether there's enough of it to meet whatever standard of proof applies is a different question. You seem to think that having not enough evidence is the same as having no evidence.
As I've said before, there is evidence pointing to Russia. There is not enough for a criminal conviction...yet, but there is evidence.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Enlil]
#25064545 - 03/15/18 02:29 AM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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We have evidence that the UK did it too by your standards.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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MagicMush123
moon person



Registered: 01/22/15
Posts: 5,263
Loc: Chinada
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#25064546 - 03/15/18 02:30 AM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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I wasn't referring to litvinenko. I dont know why you even brought him up.
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Enlil
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Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,515
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#25064547 - 03/15/18 02:30 AM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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I've yet to see any.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,515
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: MagicMush123]
#25064548 - 03/15/18 02:31 AM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
MagicMush123 said: I wasn't referring to litvinenko. I dont know why you even brought him up.
I brought him up to point out that there will be more evidence coming in the weeks and months ahead. Russian spooks have proven to be pretty sloppy when it comes to these things.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Enlil]
#25064549 - 03/15/18 02:32 AM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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I provided "evidence" (by your definition) here.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,515
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#25064551 - 03/15/18 02:33 AM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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You've provided speculation. There is a difference. It is an undisputed fact that the victims were a Russian traitor and his daughter. That is a motive for Russia to have him killed.
You have provided not a scintilla of evidence that the UK had any reason whatsoever to want this man and his daughter dead. None. That is what makes it speculation.
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MagicMush123
moon person



Registered: 01/22/15
Posts: 5,263
Loc: Chinada
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Enlil]
#25064555 - 03/15/18 02:35 AM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
MagicMush123 said: I wasn't referring to litvinenko. I dont know why you even brought him up.
I brought him up to point out that there will be more evidence coming in the weeks and months ahead. Russian spooks have proven to be pretty sloppy when it comes to these things.
It was like 12 years ago. Once sloppy, always sloppy? Or is that only true with sloppy seconds?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Enlil]
#25064556 - 03/15/18 02:35 AM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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You provided speculation as well. Why is speculation about Russia "evidence" while speculation about the UK not? I know, because "DURR, PUTIN, DURRR!"
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,515
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#25064557 - 03/15/18 02:37 AM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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I told you why. Russia's motive is undisputed. UK has no motive except one you made up.
Provide a shred of evidence that the UK had a reason to want this man dead. Just a shred. Please...I'm begging you. The UK fought to have this man released as part of a trade....so why do they want him dead now?
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,515
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: MagicMush123]
#25064558 - 03/15/18 02:38 AM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
MagicMush123 said: It was like 12 years ago. Once sloppy, always sloppy? Or is that only true with sloppy seconds?
I guess time will tell, but I'll bet dollars to donuts that more evidence surfaces.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Enlil]
#25064559 - 03/15/18 02:38 AM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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How do you dispute a motive of wanting to put Russia in a bad light? "DURR, PUTIN, DURRR!"
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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MagicMush123
moon person



Registered: 01/22/15
Posts: 5,263
Loc: Chinada
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Enlil] 1
#25064560 - 03/15/18 02:39 AM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: You've provided speculation. There is a difference. It is an undisputed fact that the victims were a Russian traitor and his daughter. That is a motive for Russia to have him killed.
You have provided not a scintilla of evidence that the UK had any reason whatsoever to want this man and his daughter dead. None. That is what makes it speculation.
All we know is that someone attempted to murder a man and his daughter. We dont know who did it or why. Suggesting either the uk or russia did it, is speculation at this point. Accept it enlil.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,515
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#25064563 - 03/15/18 02:40 AM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: How do you dispute a motive of wanting to put Russia in a bad light? "DURR, PUTIN, DURRR!"
That is pure speculation. Do you even understand what that word means? Wanting to put Russia in a bad light could be a motive for anything at any time. It's a ridiculous speculative hypothesis that has no foundation in any evidence whatsoever.
Can you provide a shred of evidence to support that motive? Please?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: MagicMush123]
#25064566 - 03/15/18 02:41 AM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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I'm way too drunk right now to keep arguing. I'll finish with this poll:
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,515
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: MagicMush123] 2
#25064569 - 03/15/18 02:45 AM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
MagicMush123 said:
All we know is that someone attempted to murder a man and his daughter. We dont know who did it or why. Suggesting either the uk or russia did it, is speculation at this point. Accept it enlil.
That's not all we know. We know that the man was a Russian traitor and was attacked with a very rare weapon that Russia invented and only Russia is known to have produced in quantity.
By way of comparison, Nichole Brown Simpson was murdered at her house...that's all we know. But actually, we know more. We know she had an ex husband with a history of violence against her. Is OJ a suspect now?
Why shouldn't Russia be? We know the victim was a convicted traitor to Russia.
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MagicMush123
moon person



Registered: 01/22/15
Posts: 5,263
Loc: Chinada
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: Enlil] 1
#25064574 - 03/15/18 02:54 AM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
MagicMush123 said:
All we know is that someone attempted to murder a man and his daughter. We dont know who did it or why. Suggesting either the uk or russia did it, is speculation at this point. Accept it enlil.
That's not all we know. We know that the man was a Russian traitor and was attacked with a very rare weapon that Russia invented and only Russia is known to have produced in quantity.
By way of comparison, Nichole Brown Simpson was murdered at her house...that's all we know. But actually, we know more. We know she had an ex husband with a history of violence against her. Is OJ a suspect now?
Why shouldn't Russia be? We know the victim was a convicted traitor to Russia.
Funny guy. You're trying to corner me and falcon into saying russia definitely didnt do it. When thats not what we're saying at all. And thats not all we know. We already established that various other countries have synthesized it as well. Russians aren't the only ones to have it. Many countries do. And as you do know we are saying it could be anyone, including russia. Just saying that, automatically saying russia is behind it is foolish.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: MagicMush123]
#25064580 - 03/15/18 02:55 AM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,515
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Teresa May takes Russia to task over chemical weapon attack on British soil [Re: MagicMush123]
#25064586 - 03/15/18 03:01 AM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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I'm not trying to corner you into anything. I'm not saying Russia did it. I put my confidence at 30% earlier in this thread. I'm saying that all of the evidence available now points to Russia and to no one else. That's not to say there is a lot of evidence. There is some, and it all points to Russia. That's what I'm saying.
Denying that there is evidence pointing to Russia is simply silly.
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