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Invisiblequinn
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'it's natural!'
    #25044606 - 03/07/18 06:19 AM (6 years, 13 days ago)

referring to 'nature' almost never adds anything to an argument and usually conceals some other (often regressive) assumption that's yet to be stated.

to list some examples:
  • gm food is not natural - i dont trust corporations to make ethical decisions regarding genetic modification
  • chemicals are not natural - we havent had time yet to observe the effects of certain chemicals on the human body 
  • social media is not natural - there are enriching aspects to in person interaction (like scent, tone, touch) that are lacking from cyber interaction
  • working in an office is not natural - it is unhealthy for people to be hunched at a desk staring at a screen all day
  • homosexuality is not natural - a gay couple cannot reproduce with one another
  • abortion is not natural - it is unethical to snuff the life of a developing fetus
  • and so on and so on

im sure you can think of your own favourite 'it's not natural' arguments and what is actually meant by them.

my point here is that saying something is 'unnatural' is next to meaningless while if you drill down into what is actually meant you usually get to concrete observations that can be discussed.

in sum: dont do it. saying something is or isnt 'natural' doesnt add anything and is a kind of lazy thinking that should be avoided... and at its worst can be cynically employed to evoke emotion while obfuscating the possibility of any actual discussion.

just a small gripe, but my 2c.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: quinn]
    #25044665 - 03/07/18 07:22 AM (6 years, 13 days ago)

to observe and follow nature makes sense.
to declare what is natural or not natural does not make sense, because nature is too big for quick little summaries


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: quinn] * 1
    #25044837 - 03/07/18 09:24 AM (6 years, 13 days ago)

I think that sometimes, people are using the words 'unnatural' and 'natural' merely as a convention to refer to the manmade and not manmade, respectively. They are only convenient labels for a distinction that is obviously sometimes useful under certain circumstances. As such I, for one, see no harm -- if used purely as this convention.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #25045341 - 03/07/18 10:23 AM (6 years, 13 days ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I think that sometimes, people are using the words 'unnatural' and 'natural' merely as a convention to refer to the manmade and not manmade, respectively. They are only convenient labels for a distinction that is obviously sometimes useful under certain circumstances. As such I, for one, see no harm -- if used purely as this convention.





I agree, I mean it's a little trite to point out that everything is derived from nature and thus must be natural......  As if it wasn't natural, then it must be supernatural.  :wtf:  It's just a semantic game people seemed to play on this forum.  "Prove me it ain't natural" . :nicesmile:


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #25045503 - 03/07/18 10:30 AM (6 years, 13 days ago)

Exactly.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #25045887 - 03/07/18 01:02 PM (6 years, 13 days ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I think that sometimes, people are using the words 'unnatural' and 'natural' merely as a convention to refer to the manmade and not manmade, respectively. They are only convenient labels for a distinction that is obviously sometimes useful under certain circumstances. As such I, for one, see no harm -- if used purely as this convention.



I also only see this distinction in that way to look at :3rd_eye:
Kind of like asking, what would be there, if men would not be there... thinking to the extreme extent. :crazy:

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InvisibleGreen7Alchemist
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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: quinn]
    #25046292 - 03/07/18 03:11 PM (6 years, 13 days ago)

so i cant say(according to you) that a tangerine that grows during winter is unnatural... because its "lazy thinking"

but perhaps if i had to sit and explain whats wrong with the tangerine implies lazy thinking on your end.

why is ingesting high quantities of aluminum bad for you when its a naturally occurring element?

why is it bad to spray our water and our plants with naturally occurring metals found in nature?

in short all that shit is unnatural, but really i wonder why i or anyone would have to sit and go thru in detail why these things are inherently unnatural to a intelligible person.


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Sunshine said: "Gangsters are super heroes"

Edited by Green7Alchemist (03/07/18 03:13 PM)

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: Green7Alchemist] * 1
    #25046587 - 03/07/18 04:06 PM (6 years, 13 days ago)

it's not about declaring what's natural or not,
it's about observing what is natural to help you learn how to do things.

same as AI
you have to observe hundreds of cases to get the rhythm of it - to find a natural way that suits you.

other uses of the term are manipulative.


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Invisiblequinn
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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #25047250 - 03/07/18 07:51 PM (6 years, 13 days ago)

yeah i think it'd be too extreme for me to say its never useful but i do think as a rhetorical device it's often abused to make some kind of pseudo argument.

im not convinced it has any place in ethical argument, as ethics is entirely to do with human behaviour and entirely 'manmade'. would you agree? i cant really think of any instance where describing human action as being natural or not is useful in an ethical argument.


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Invisiblequinn
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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: Green7Alchemist]
    #25047480 - 03/07/18 09:45 PM (6 years, 13 days ago)

Quote:

Green7Alchemist said:
so i cant say(according to you) that a tangerine that grows during winter is unnatural... because its "lazy thinking"

but perhaps if i had to sit and explain whats wrong with the tangerine implies lazy thinking on your end.




how does calling it unnatural add anything? unusual or aberrant from prior observation about tangerines, sure. if we discover an ominivorous rat in indonesia last year is it useful to say 'that's unnatural for a rat' bcos most rats are carnivors?

Quote:

why is ingesting high quantities of aluminum bad for you when its a naturally occurring element?

why is it bad to spray our water and our plants with naturally occurring metals found in nature?




these things arent bad for you because they are unnatural, theyre bad for you because of specific effects they have on biological organisms. :shrug:


Quote:

in short all that shit is unnatural, but really i wonder why i or anyone would have to sit and go thru in detail why these things are inherently unnatural to a intelligible person.



why is whether they are classified as unnatural or not relevant?


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: quinn] * 1
    #25047496 - 03/07/18 09:55 PM (6 years, 13 days ago)

Quote:

quinn said:
yeah i think it'd be too extreme for me to say its never useful but i do think as a rhetorical device it's often abused to make some kind of pseudo argument.

im not convinced it has any place in ethical argument, as ethics is entirely to do with human behaviour and entirely 'manmade'. would you agree? i cant really think of any instance where describing human action as being natural or not is useful in an ethical argument.





I agree, I don't see any use for it in something like ethics.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #25048327 - 03/08/18 11:18 AM (6 years, 12 days ago)

Isn't it ethical to ask if our planet would be in a more promising state if man wouldn't exist ?

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InvisibleGreen7Alchemist
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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: quinn]
    #25048330 - 03/08/18 11:22 AM (6 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

quinn said:

how does calling it unnatural add anything? unusual or aberrant from prior observation about tangerines, sure. if we discover an ominivorous rat in indonesia last year is it useful to say 'that's unnatural for a rat' bcos most rats are carnivors?





well now im confused is that natural?

what would be wrong in calling it unnatural? the reasons are obvious are they not, are you a biologist would you be able to explain to me in detail what happened in that rats physiology to make it change its diet?

what could you tell me about that rat? besides its unnatural eating pattern...

if you were to find high quantities of barium in my body would you call that natural? i wouldnt and i dont think that necessarily implies my lack of thinking or understanding, i think im calling it how it is, its unnatural.


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InvisibleGreen7Alchemist
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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25048345 - 03/08/18 11:29 AM (6 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
it's not about declaring what's natural or not,
it's about observing what is natural to help you learn how to do things.





somethings are better left undone.

for instance i noticed that in all these gmo, natural v unnatural debates no one ever bring up the case that corn stalks came from a single grass blade, years before modern technology, in essence it is a genetically modified organism. ok fair enough.

but should i put up pictures of over sized chickens in a slaughter house jammed into cages, where did man observe that?

and when do we draw the line and say that's not natural for those animals to live like that...


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: Green7Alchemist]
    #25049120 - 03/08/18 01:55 PM (6 years, 12 days ago)

that's natural for you


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InvisibleGreen7Alchemist
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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25049637 - 03/08/18 02:53 PM (6 years, 12 days ago)

a lot of things are,

but to produce barium in my system is not.

i can sit here and post a long essay on why geo engineering is destructive to the environment, or i can just say you know what that shits unnatural man, because it is -

un·nat·u·ral
ˌənˈnaCH(ə)rəl/Submit
adjective
contrary to the ordinary course of nature; abnormal.
"death by unnatural causes"
synonyms: abnormal, unusual, uncommon, extraordinary, strange, odd, peculiar, unorthodox, exceptional, irregular, atypical, untypical; More
not existing in nature; artificial.
"the artificial turf looks an unnatural green"
synonyms: artificial, man-made, synthetic, manufactured, inorganic, genetically engineered
"a flash of unnatural color"
affected or stilted.
"the formal tone of the programs caused them to sound stilted and unnatural"
synonyms: affected, artificial, mannered, stilted, forced, labored, strained, false, fake, theatrical, insincere, ersatz; More

its a self explanatory word.


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Trip 7
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CHRIST IS KING.

Sunshine said: "Gangsters are super heroes"

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #25049720 - 03/08/18 03:09 PM (6 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Isn't it ethical to ask if our planet would be in a more promising state if man wouldn't exist ?





I think the disruptions to the balance of the planet generated by man could be seen as an ethical issue, but then you would have to admit that man's behavior is essentially perfectly natural, imo.


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InvisibleGreen7Alchemist
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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #25049738 - 03/08/18 03:23 PM (6 years, 12 days ago)

ok but what you are saying here is that man inherently evil because he is systematically destroying the planet by his very nature.

if thats natural than we should look @ murder as nothing more than the natural way of things.

or is it all just learned behavior?...

is it modern society as a collective that has become opposed to nature ?

how good does it feel to breathe in carbon monoxide early morning in the city? (we're killing ourselves)


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Trip 7
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CHRIST IS KING.

Sunshine said: "Gangsters are super heroes"

Edited by Green7Alchemist (03/08/18 03:24 PM)

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: Green7Alchemist]
    #25050464 - 03/08/18 08:22 PM (6 years, 12 days ago)

not self explanatory, but it suits your attitude to declare so.
Nature is very complex, while they way you invoke it is extremely simplistic.
But that's your attitude, and to have such an attitude is "natural" in the sense that it is normal and easy to use the term in such a flip way/


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Invisiblequinn
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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: Green7Alchemist]
    #25050552 - 03/08/18 09:10 PM (6 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

Green7Alchemist said:
well now im confused is that natural?



who cares why does it matter?

Quote:

what would be wrong in calling it unnatural? the reasons are obvious are they not, are you a biologist would you be able to explain to me in detail what happened in that rats physiology to make it change its diet?




it evolved on an island with limited food and adapted to foraging for roots and insects. idk why youd think it's useful to call evolution (adapation, mutation, change) unnatural :cookiemonster:

but as i said, why does it matter

Quote:

if you were to find high quantities of barium in my body would you call that natural? i wouldnt and i dont think that necessarily implies my lack of thinking or understanding, i think im calling it how it is, its unnatural.



sure as i said to DividedQuantum i think it could be useful to say you have 'unnatural amounts of barium' in your body. i give you that. but why that is relevant is not bcos it is unnatural, why it's relevant is bcos of the effects barium has on your body. see the difference?

Quote:

but should i put up pictures of over sized chickens in a slaughter house jammed into cages, where did man observe that?

and when do we draw the line and say that's not natural for those animals to live like that...



why is naturalness where you draw a line? why not where what is humane?

i found a dehydrated cat the other day. it lived with me a few days but i could see it wanted to return to the bush. i thought 'i guess it's not natural for a cat to live with me'

but that was not really the issue. the issue was i was depriving it of the rich sensory landscape of the outdoors. i was depriving it of critters to hunt. i was depriving it of space, free movement etc.

now these are all concrete things that i could try address. i could for example take it for walks. i could find it toys to simulate prey. to take this to an extreme i could build it an artificial environment of fake trees and robotic mice that are identical to the real thing in every way except that i built them.

my point is you can find solutions to concrete problems but when you just say 'X is not natural' you are limiting any kind of discussion and i'll say it again: are being lazy


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: quinn]
    #25050717 - 03/08/18 10:56 PM (6 years, 12 days ago)

Natural is an element in itself.. sometimes the feeling of wrong seems unnatural..

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Invisiblesudly
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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: quinn]
    #25050811 - 03/09/18 12:25 AM (6 years, 11 days ago)

- GM foods aren't all bad.
- Not all chemicals are natural, some synthetic ones are bad, some organic ones are too.
- Who the F would say social media is natural?
- I'm a green collar worker so sure.
- Lions fuck each other and some male apes suck each other off so it certainly happens in nature, (in the wild with or without humans)
- Abortion is complicated and emotionally weighty, the decision to do so is usually because someone who isn't mentally or financially able to raise a child would fuck up their childs life and consequently their own. To not abort in some cases is to put a child up for adoption or commit them to foster homes.

Guns aren't natural tho, point, click, boom, dead; GG evolution and survival of the fittest.

Maybe you'd be interested in the terms organic and man made :shrug:


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: sudly]
    #25050944 - 03/09/18 02:44 AM (6 years, 11 days ago)

I like the artificial environment you built less
like jordan peterson's "I am a horrible person"

so unless god is not a horripble person maybe it makes sense to hope there is no god

but the christian's also believe god is not a horrible entity I think
there is no confinement with him, so we don't like his creation less than if it wasn't created by anyone

in a way everything is nature to me


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: Ferdinando]
    #25050961 - 03/09/18 02:57 AM (6 years, 11 days ago)

What the flup?


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Invisiblequinn
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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: sudly]
    #25050983 - 03/09/18 03:21 AM (6 years, 11 days ago)

i wasnt arguing for or against any of those things listed, the point of them was to illustrate that when ppl say 'X is/isnt natural' generally there are further beliefs/assumptions nestled within


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: quinn]
    #25050991 - 03/09/18 03:29 AM (6 years, 11 days ago)

Dont join the army, the military industrial corporation/complex makes money off wars and soldiers are pawns in the money making machine that war has become.


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Invisiblequinn
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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: sudly]
    #25050994 - 03/09/18 03:31 AM (6 years, 11 days ago)

how is that relevant?


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: quinn]
    #25050997 - 03/09/18 03:38 AM (6 years, 11 days ago)

Saying something is natural means it's real and not some hokey pokey metaphysical bull catoowey.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: sudly] * 1
    #25051069 - 03/09/18 04:51 AM (6 years, 11 days ago)

I repeat,
people here do not seem equipped to use the term "natural" consistently or intelligently.

But observing nature remains the best way to gain perspective, especially the of observing one's own nature, which is constantly changing. (note perspective is a reasonable point of view, not a comprehensive handle on everything)

Each confident usage of the term in the various comments of this thread seems charged with the member's politics, programming, and by the propaganda they struggle through.- in short, their own nature.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #25051080 - 03/09/18 05:01 AM (6 years, 11 days ago)

Saying it's natural to fuck on the first date is pretty shifty IMO, though saying something in the environment is natural seems self explanatory. Seems pretty fitting to say that's a natural waterfall, and that that is a man made biobasin that's over flowing.


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: 'it's natural!' *DELETED* [Re: sudly]
    #25051115 - 03/09/18 05:37 AM (6 years, 11 days ago)

Post deleted by Ferdinando

Reason for deletion: too like distressing/chaotic for me



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Invisiblesudly
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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: Ferdinando]
    #25051137 - 03/09/18 05:50 AM (6 years, 11 days ago)

Yass, you would feel the surge, the beat, the tension of your angles.

Gimme ya money :cactuarrun:


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OfflinePeyote Road
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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: quinn]
    #25051218 - 03/09/18 06:49 AM (6 years, 11 days ago)

Nature has an order to it, things are in a certain balance or they can't exist. But something created in a lab by men can easily ignore this balance.

This is why natural drugs are in general safer than man made. It doesn't mean every natural drug is safer than every synthetic drug in every instance, but you will definitely notice a major trend if you look at drug overdose deaths for example. It's the synthetic drugs topping the charts.

That's one way in which I think the word natural can be used. If you're talking about a natural plant you know it is part of an ancient order.


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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: Peyote Road]
    #25051311 - 03/09/18 08:02 AM (6 years, 11 days ago)

thinking that way, is full of prejudice, ignorance, and tricks.
the lab and modern man are not fundamentally inimical to nature or life, and ancient concepts were more geared to plunder, anti-intellectualism, and enslavement, and these traditions color the ancient healing arts as well (they also remain foundational to big pharma - so keep your own counsel on that).

you can find enlightenment and salvation in nature, but not through prejudice, generalization or anti-intellectual luddism.


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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25051565 - 03/09/18 10:00 AM (6 years, 11 days ago)

I just use this term (imagination of 'without-humans') at any time and place to imagine how would it be, if man had no 'influence' on what I look at (consider), or how would it go on, if at some places, suddenly humans wouldn't influence the environment anymore.
I just now come to the realization that very few people consider 'natural' that way. :shrug:

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InvisibleGreen7Alchemist
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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: quinn]
    #25051907 - 03/09/18 12:54 PM (6 years, 11 days ago)

deleted


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Sunshine said: "Gangsters are super heroes"

Edited by Green7Alchemist (03/09/18 01:11 PM)

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InvisibleGreen7Alchemist
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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25051923 - 03/09/18 01:03 PM (6 years, 11 days ago)

i agree nature is complex,

yet the distinction between man made and organic remain.


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InvisibleGreen7Alchemist
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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: Green7Alchemist]
    #25051933 - 03/09/18 01:10 PM (6 years, 11 days ago)

dude what do you mean who cares? this is your thread, you made this :lol:

im not calling evolution unnatural. if one isolated rat(general) changes his eating pattern.. then it is unnatural (and this is the correct wording), that is not evolution, maybe mutation, most likely the rat is sick and will die shortly, im no vet but i can look at it and say its unnatural for certain.

i know the difference, if you would read my posts in their entirety, as i said with high quantities of aluminum in the body that its unnatural even tho the element is found in nature in its natural state for it to reside in your body in high quantities is unnatural, obviously for the effects, this is a given its unnatural, whenever a foreign entity enters a new environment there is always going to be some kind of side effect, in this particular case a negative one.

in the sentence natural and humane are not synonymous, chickens (or any animal) are not meant to be treated like that? its not about how safely and painless you torture them its still torture for a chicken to trapped in a cage for its whole existence, it is abnormal to do that.

my cat is a feral cat, he's huge, i like to keep him indoors because he's just so pretty and i like cuddling with him, also he's crazy, every now and then i can tell he gets into a funk and i let him go outside because its not natural for him to be inside my house 24/7 365, some people do it, ok fine by me, i think its the better decision to keep your cats indoors, they are just too curious and get themselves into trouble, but i if you ask me  my opinion, what i do, its only natural to let your cat roam around a little.

i think to create an artificial environment for him wouldnt serve justice, thats like if you lived your life thru VR.


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Sunshine said: "Gangsters are super heroes"

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: Green7Alchemist]
    #25052569 - 03/09/18 05:22 PM (6 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Green7Alchemist said:
i agree nature is complex,

yet the distinction between man made and organic remain.



imaginary


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Invisiblequinn
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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: Green7Alchemist]
    #25053582 - 03/10/18 02:14 AM (6 years, 10 days ago)

your seem insistent on missing the point :ohwell:


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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: quinn]
    #25053705 - 03/10/18 05:24 AM (6 years, 10 days ago)

some fixed ideas (right or wrong) are membership to select societies, like the guild of whole earth catalog-ers.

this aspect of group membership is very useful in marketing, in defining a sector of the population and determining the language to use when selling them products or presidential candidates.


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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25055514 - 03/11/18 01:26 AM (6 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
thinking that way, is full of prejudice, ignorance, and tricks.
the lab and modern man are not fundamentally inimical to nature or life, and ancient concepts were more geared to plunder, anti-intellectualism, and enslavement, and these traditions color the ancient healing arts as well (they also remain foundational to big pharma - so keep your own counsel on that).

you can find enlightenment and salvation in nature, but not through prejudice, generalization or anti-intellectual luddism.




How so? I still think natural vs synthetic is a meaningful distinction in terms of pharmacological agents. I would wager that if you gave me 20 random substances double blind, 10 natural plant substances and 10 invented in a lab I would be able to tell which were natural and which were made in the lab.


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The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra

Edited by Peyote Road (03/11/18 01:27 AM)

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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: Green7Alchemist]
    #25055592 - 03/11/18 05:21 AM (6 years, 9 days ago)

Just for the aluminium,
as far as I see, if someone drunk from a spring which is naturally full of aluminium or some other heavy metal (washed out from the rock on the way up), then he will die a natural death.
But if it was washed into the water by some human activity, like mining for example, then one could say he died an unnatural cause :wink:

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: Peyote Road]
    #25055670 - 03/11/18 06:55 AM (6 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

Peyote Road said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
thinking that way, is full of prejudice, ignorance, and tricks.
the lab and modern man are not fundamentally inimical to nature or life, and ancient concepts were more geared to plunder, anti-intellectualism, and enslavement, and these traditions color the ancient healing arts as well (they also remain foundational to big pharma - so keep your own counsel on that).

you can find enlightenment and salvation in nature, but not through prejudice, generalization or anti-intellectual luddism.




How so? I still think natural vs synthetic is a meaningful distinction in terms of pharmacological agents. I would wager that if you gave me 20 random substances double blind, 10 natural plant substances and 10 invented in a lab I would be able to tell which were natural and which were made in the lab.



Great,
the Wager is the first step in the scientific process, although it is usually put forth as an Hypothesis...
then you define your method and equipment to test your hypothesis...
record the repeatable steps so others can prove the hypothesis as well...
finally report your findings and collect all the money for your well thought out plan.


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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25057593 - 03/12/18 02:26 AM (6 years, 8 days ago)

So is nature natural?

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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #25057690 - 03/12/18 05:05 AM (6 years, 8 days ago)

in a manner of speaking, naturally!


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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25059485 - 03/12/18 11:16 PM (6 years, 8 days ago)

So then what parts are unnatural?

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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: BrendanFlock] * 1
    #25060075 - 03/13/18 08:35 AM (6 years, 7 days ago)

parts of the whole are natural - no parts are unnatural.
the whole concept of "natural vs unnatural" is kooky - it's a poor fit for discriminating between:
  • organic farming versus industrial farming with cheap industrial fertilizers.
  • cotton, wool, and hemp versus nylon, orlon, rayon and other plastic fibers.
  • theater versus television.
  • camping in a tent versus renting a villa.
  • walking versus driving.
  • etc.


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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25060643 - 03/13/18 02:01 PM (6 years, 7 days ago)

Why not say 'human' is 'cause' of 'unnatural' ?
Is there anything unnatural not caused by human ?
And then, what ability is it, that makes it unnnatural ? The brain (-functions) ? The evolution ? Quality and quantity ? Of what exactly and in what relation ? Why and how ?
A lot of questions behind, I guess...

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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #25060810 - 03/13/18 03:07 PM (6 years, 7 days ago)

this is all about marketing and influence, so it's basically an unclear and demonizing abusive negation of the positive term "nature" which includes all life and death.

the concept "unnatural" is like the concept of the devil.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25060904 - 03/13/18 03:41 PM (6 years, 7 days ago)

lol nah.
I just won't go away with saying that word is useless or devilish.
It is the description, for what DQ and I claimed it for. I don't want to condemn it for that what it is, but only want to find out, what constitutes it like that.
And then, of course, find ways so integrate it back into ourselves again and find the reasons why we derived and such, you know :sun:

Edited by BlueCoyote (03/14/18 11:48 AM)

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OfflineAhimsa
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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #25061234 - 03/13/18 06:15 PM (6 years, 7 days ago)

Remind me of the attempt I made dividing the world in 'natural' as in not man-made and 'unnatural' ie made with natural things by man.
But that doesn't make one or the other better. It just helped me to see how far down I have to go to reach the 'natural' in whatever is unnatural.
Like GM food is not natural but the atoms the molecules are made from are. So, the argument would hinge upon the unnatural molecules being ok to us or not...naturaly

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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: Ahimsa]
    #25062323 - 03/14/18 09:22 AM (6 years, 6 days ago)

any time you work with marketing terms, and "natural" has become one, you are operating with a cognitive disability.

I recommend you look at each issue in it's own light, and base your decisions on that, and stop trying to fit the manipulative terms derived from marketing or politics such as "natural" over top of what is clear to you through your senses and your knowledge of sciences and history.


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