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quinn
some kinda love
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'it's natural!'
#25044606 - 03/07/18 06:19 AM (6 years, 13 days ago) |
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referring to 'nature' almost never adds anything to an argument and usually conceals some other (often regressive) assumption that's yet to be stated.
to list some examples:
- gm food is not natural - i dont trust corporations to make ethical decisions regarding genetic modification
- chemicals are not natural - we havent had time yet to observe the effects of certain chemicals on the human body
- social media is not natural - there are enriching aspects to in person interaction (like scent, tone, touch) that are lacking from cyber interaction
- working in an office is not natural - it is unhealthy for people to be hunched at a desk staring at a screen all day
- homosexuality is not natural - a gay couple cannot reproduce with one another
- abortion is not natural - it is unethical to snuff the life of a developing fetus
- and so on and so on
im sure you can think of your own favourite 'it's not natural' arguments and what is actually meant by them.
my point here is that saying something is 'unnatural' is next to meaningless while if you drill down into what is actually meant you usually get to concrete observations that can be discussed.
in sum: dont do it. saying something is or isnt 'natural' doesnt add anything and is a kind of lazy thinking that should be avoided... and at its worst can be cynically employed to evoke emotion while obfuscating the possibility of any actual discussion.
just a small gripe, but my 2c.
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redgreenvines
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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: quinn]
#25044665 - 03/07/18 07:22 AM (6 years, 13 days ago) |
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to observe and follow nature makes sense. to declare what is natural or not natural does not make sense, because nature is too big for quick little summaries
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DividedQuantum
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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: quinn] 1
#25044837 - 03/07/18 09:24 AM (6 years, 13 days ago) |
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I think that sometimes, people are using the words 'unnatural' and 'natural' merely as a convention to refer to the manmade and not manmade, respectively. They are only convenient labels for a distinction that is obviously sometimes useful under certain circumstances. As such I, for one, see no harm -- if used purely as this convention.
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CosmicJoke
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: I think that sometimes, people are using the words 'unnatural' and 'natural' merely as a convention to refer to the manmade and not manmade, respectively. They are only convenient labels for a distinction that is obviously sometimes useful under certain circumstances. As such I, for one, see no harm -- if used purely as this convention.
I agree, I mean it's a little trite to point out that everything is derived from nature and thus must be natural...... As if it wasn't natural, then it must be supernatural. It's just a semantic game people seemed to play on this forum. "Prove me it ain't natural" .
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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DividedQuantum
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Exactly.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: I think that sometimes, people are using the words 'unnatural' and 'natural' merely as a convention to refer to the manmade and not manmade, respectively. They are only convenient labels for a distinction that is obviously sometimes useful under certain circumstances. As such I, for one, see no harm -- if used purely as this convention.
I also only see this distinction in that way to look at Kind of like asking, what would be there, if men would not be there... thinking to the extreme extent.
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Green7Alchemist
Draco
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Loc: Mayami
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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: quinn]
#25046292 - 03/07/18 03:11 PM (6 years, 13 days ago) |
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so i cant say(according to you) that a tangerine that grows during winter is unnatural... because its "lazy thinking"
but perhaps if i had to sit and explain whats wrong with the tangerine implies lazy thinking on your end.
why is ingesting high quantities of aluminum bad for you when its a naturally occurring element?
why is it bad to spray our water and our plants with naturally occurring metals found in nature?
in short all that shit is unnatural, but really i wonder why i or anyone would have to sit and go thru in detail why these things are inherently unnatural to a intelligible person.
-------------------- Trip 7 THUG - ISLAM - BIBLE streets disciple CHRIST IS KING. Sunshine said: "Gangsters are super heroes"
Edited by Green7Alchemist (03/07/18 03:13 PM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
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it's not about declaring what's natural or not, it's about observing what is natural to help you learn how to do things.
same as AI you have to observe hundreds of cases to get the rhythm of it - to find a natural way that suits you.
other uses of the term are manipulative.
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quinn
some kinda love
Registered: 01/02/10
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yeah i think it'd be too extreme for me to say its never useful but i do think as a rhetorical device it's often abused to make some kind of pseudo argument.
im not convinced it has any place in ethical argument, as ethics is entirely to do with human behaviour and entirely 'manmade'. would you agree? i cant really think of any instance where describing human action as being natural or not is useful in an ethical argument.
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quinn
some kinda love
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Quote:
Green7Alchemist said: so i cant say(according to you) that a tangerine that grows during winter is unnatural... because its "lazy thinking"
but perhaps if i had to sit and explain whats wrong with the tangerine implies lazy thinking on your end.
how does calling it unnatural add anything? unusual or aberrant from prior observation about tangerines, sure. if we discover an ominivorous rat in indonesia last year is it useful to say 'that's unnatural for a rat' bcos most rats are carnivors?
Quote:
why is ingesting high quantities of aluminum bad for you when its a naturally occurring element?
why is it bad to spray our water and our plants with naturally occurring metals found in nature?
these things arent bad for you because they are unnatural, theyre bad for you because of specific effects they have on biological organisms.
Quote:
in short all that shit is unnatural, but really i wonder why i or anyone would have to sit and go thru in detail why these things are inherently unnatural to a intelligible person.
why is whether they are classified as unnatural or not relevant?
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head
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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: quinn] 1
#25047496 - 03/07/18 09:55 PM (6 years, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
quinn said: yeah i think it'd be too extreme for me to say its never useful but i do think as a rhetorical device it's often abused to make some kind of pseudo argument.
im not convinced it has any place in ethical argument, as ethics is entirely to do with human behaviour and entirely 'manmade'. would you agree? i cant really think of any instance where describing human action as being natural or not is useful in an ethical argument.
I agree, I don't see any use for it in something like ethics.
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BlueCoyote
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Isn't it ethical to ask if our planet would be in a more promising state if man wouldn't exist ?
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Green7Alchemist
Draco
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Loc: Mayami
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Re: 'it's natural!' [Re: quinn]
#25048330 - 03/08/18 11:22 AM (6 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
quinn said:
how does calling it unnatural add anything? unusual or aberrant from prior observation about tangerines, sure. if we discover an ominivorous rat in indonesia last year is it useful to say 'that's unnatural for a rat' bcos most rats are carnivors?
well now im confused is that natural?
what would be wrong in calling it unnatural? the reasons are obvious are they not, are you a biologist would you be able to explain to me in detail what happened in that rats physiology to make it change its diet?
what could you tell me about that rat? besides its unnatural eating pattern...
if you were to find high quantities of barium in my body would you call that natural? i wouldnt and i dont think that necessarily implies my lack of thinking or understanding, i think im calling it how it is, its unnatural.
-------------------- Trip 7 THUG - ISLAM - BIBLE streets disciple CHRIST IS KING. Sunshine said: "Gangsters are super heroes"
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Green7Alchemist
Draco
Registered: 12/28/16
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Loc: Mayami
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: it's not about declaring what's natural or not, it's about observing what is natural to help you learn how to do things.
somethings are better left undone.
for instance i noticed that in all these gmo, natural v unnatural debates no one ever bring up the case that corn stalks came from a single grass blade, years before modern technology, in essence it is a genetically modified organism. ok fair enough.
but should i put up pictures of over sized chickens in a slaughter house jammed into cages, where did man observe that?
and when do we draw the line and say that's not natural for those animals to live like that...
-------------------- Trip 7 THUG - ISLAM - BIBLE streets disciple CHRIST IS KING. Sunshine said: "Gangsters are super heroes"
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
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that's natural for you
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Green7Alchemist
Draco
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a lot of things are,
but to produce barium in my system is not.
i can sit here and post a long essay on why geo engineering is destructive to the environment, or i can just say you know what that shits unnatural man, because it is -
un·nat·u·ral ˌənˈnaCH(ə)rəl/Submit adjective contrary to the ordinary course of nature; abnormal. "death by unnatural causes" synonyms: abnormal, unusual, uncommon, extraordinary, strange, odd, peculiar, unorthodox, exceptional, irregular, atypical, untypical; More not existing in nature; artificial. "the artificial turf looks an unnatural green" synonyms: artificial, man-made, synthetic, manufactured, inorganic, genetically engineered "a flash of unnatural color" affected or stilted. "the formal tone of the programs caused them to sound stilted and unnatural" synonyms: affected, artificial, mannered, stilted, forced, labored, strained, false, fake, theatrical, insincere, ersatz; More
its a self explanatory word.
-------------------- Trip 7 THUG - ISLAM - BIBLE streets disciple CHRIST IS KING. Sunshine said: "Gangsters are super heroes"
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DividedQuantum
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Quote:
BlueCoyote said: Isn't it ethical to ask if our planet would be in a more promising state if man wouldn't exist ?
I think the disruptions to the balance of the planet generated by man could be seen as an ethical issue, but then you would have to admit that man's behavior is essentially perfectly natural, imo.
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Green7Alchemist
Draco
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ok but what you are saying here is that man inherently evil because he is systematically destroying the planet by his very nature.
if thats natural than we should look @ murder as nothing more than the natural way of things.
or is it all just learned behavior?...
is it modern society as a collective that has become opposed to nature ?
how good does it feel to breathe in carbon monoxide early morning in the city? (we're killing ourselves)
-------------------- Trip 7 THUG - ISLAM - BIBLE streets disciple CHRIST IS KING. Sunshine said: "Gangsters are super heroes"
Edited by Green7Alchemist (03/08/18 03:24 PM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
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not self explanatory, but it suits your attitude to declare so. Nature is very complex, while they way you invoke it is extremely simplistic. But that's your attitude, and to have such an attitude is "natural" in the sense that it is normal and easy to use the term in such a flip way/
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quinn
some kinda love
Registered: 01/02/10
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Quote:
Green7Alchemist said: well now im confused is that natural?
who cares why does it matter?
Quote:
what would be wrong in calling it unnatural? the reasons are obvious are they not, are you a biologist would you be able to explain to me in detail what happened in that rats physiology to make it change its diet?
it evolved on an island with limited food and adapted to foraging for roots and insects. idk why youd think it's useful to call evolution (adapation, mutation, change) unnatural
but as i said, why does it matter
Quote:
if you were to find high quantities of barium in my body would you call that natural? i wouldnt and i dont think that necessarily implies my lack of thinking or understanding, i think im calling it how it is, its unnatural.
sure as i said to DividedQuantum i think it could be useful to say you have 'unnatural amounts of barium' in your body. i give you that. but why that is relevant is not bcos it is unnatural, why it's relevant is bcos of the effects barium has on your body. see the difference?
Quote:
but should i put up pictures of over sized chickens in a slaughter house jammed into cages, where did man observe that?
and when do we draw the line and say that's not natural for those animals to live like that...
why is naturalness where you draw a line? why not where what is humane?
i found a dehydrated cat the other day. it lived with me a few days but i could see it wanted to return to the bush. i thought 'i guess it's not natural for a cat to live with me'
but that was not really the issue. the issue was i was depriving it of the rich sensory landscape of the outdoors. i was depriving it of critters to hunt. i was depriving it of space, free movement etc.
now these are all concrete things that i could try address. i could for example take it for walks. i could find it toys to simulate prey. to take this to an extreme i could build it an artificial environment of fake trees and robotic mice that are identical to the real thing in every way except that i built them.
my point is you can find solutions to concrete problems but when you just say 'X is not natural' you are limiting any kind of discussion and i'll say it again: are being lazy
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