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imachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw



Registered: 06/06/07
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Re: if you are enlightened, please read. [Re: Deadfrancis]
#25097642 - 03/28/18 04:13 PM (5 years, 9 months ago) |
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What is enlightened anyway? As far as I know it is only a place where no further attachments exist or the ability to be attached exists.
No perception can truly be labeled as "the correct perception". All perceptions change. One person may like huge downtowns and hate a place isolated like Nassau Bahamas. Others it may be the opposite. Others yet still may think that the environment has nothing to do with how happy you are or aren't and it is your experience in this environment and how hard everyone works and how fairly everyone is treated for how hard they work etc.
I assume anyone that says they are enlightened is not. Everything you can learn from. Some things are harder to be less attached to. Some think violence and conquest make a persons heart like stone and more determined. This of course brings attachment to anger distrust and misery.
It is said that no action is bad only reactions and actions based on reactions. Bless it to be true it is so fair you cannot imagine. Understand it and live it
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I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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locospacebean


Registered: 02/03/18
Posts: 495
Loc: Canada
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Re: if you are enlightened, please read. [Re: imachavel]
#25097669 - 03/28/18 04:29 PM (5 years, 9 months ago) |
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Basically, you're saying "once you realize that you create your own reality, do you have nightmares?"
But the nature of a nightmare is the interpretation of a sleep experience as being victimized by an uncontrollable sleep state.
Once you realize that you create your own reality, you also realize that you create your interpretations and definitions, so by interpreting a sleep experience as a nightmare, you're simply volunteering yourself to be victimized by your own creations.
Others have stated this in their own ways.
It's like saying, "do you still see the sky as blue once you're enlightened?", when in fact, there is no sky, only the interpretation of what we define as "sky"... such as it is with nightmares, "bad trips" and other negative associations.
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Deadfrancis
I am you

Registered: 03/18/17
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Re: if you are enlightened, please read. [Re: locospacebean]
#25097816 - 03/28/18 05:25 PM (5 years, 9 months ago) |
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enlightenment is knowing the truth that consciousness is universal, theres only one consciousness.
Quote:
locospacebean said: Basically, you're saying "once you realize that you create your own reality, do you have nightmares?"
But the nature of a nightmare is the interpretation of a sleep experience as being victimized by an uncontrollable sleep state.
Once you realize that you create your own reality, you also realize that you create your interpretations and definitions, so by interpreting a sleep experience as a nightmare, you're simply volunteering yourself to be victimized by your own creations.
Others have stated this in their own ways.
It's like saying, "do you still see the sky as blue once you're enlightened?", when in fact, there is no sky, only the interpretation of what we define as "sky"... such as it is with nightmares, "bad trips" and other negative associations.
okay, but we have all had nightmares in the past, and many of us have experienced a paradigm shift to the third state of consciousness, where the term "awake" is expressed.
a nightmare is a dream that feels like hell, on any scale. in my experience, all of that ended when i reached the awakening stage.
are you saying it makes no sense to ask if nightmares cease after enlightenment? i feel it makes plenty of sense, lets cut out the jizz jazz about illusionary seperations for a minute and play with the cards we were dealt.
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locospacebean


Registered: 02/03/18
Posts: 495
Loc: Canada
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Re: if you are enlightened, please read. [Re: Deadfrancis]
#25097913 - 03/28/18 06:09 PM (5 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Deadfrancis said: enlightenment is knowing the truth that consciousness is universal, theres only one consciousness.
are you saying it makes no sense to ask if nightmares cease after enlightenment? i feel it makes plenty of sense, lets cut out the jizz jazz about illusionary seperations for a minute and play with the cards we were dealt.
I'm saying, despite one's claims of being enlightened or reaching a "third state of consciousness", that the only truth about enlightenment is that which is ineffable... all others are simply an interpretation of the human state of experience for the purpose of communication.
You can claim that enlightenment is "This" or "That", that you've traveled a path or made a journey, reached "the next level" but the beauty of enlightenment is that it is all of those things and it isn't.
So no, i'm not saying that it makes no sense to ask if nightmares cease after enlightenment, but the very question is "jizz jazz", as you put it and every answer is as valid or invalid as any other.
So ya man, go for it, have fun with it, play with those cards... discuss, discuss, discuss... but illusionary separations aren't something to be dismissed or feared, so long as we all know that once we start to define and create a set of standards for what it means to reach that "third state of consciousness" that it's a slippery slope down the illusory hill.
To muddy the waters further, wouldn't it be fair to say that if you are of the mind that your current state of enlightenment has separated you from the experience of having nightmares, that it's entirely possible that your enlightenment itself is illusory, since, as you say, enlightenment is the understanding that consciousness (including nightmares) is universal?
As a previous poster said, "As you become more conscious you realize you were always conscious, just that you were not conscious of your consciousness"
Discussions about enlightenment are 99% verbal masturbation... but i don't want to be a cock-blocker here... so have at it.
My official answer to the thread is: No, i stopped having "nightmares" after a 3 month period of LSD & psilocybin microdosing in my late teens... but i still have terrifying dreams... LOL
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Edited by locospacebean (03/28/18 06:15 PM)
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imachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw



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Re: if you are enlightened, please read. [Re: Deadfrancis]
#25098249 - 03/28/18 08:35 PM (5 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Deadfrancis said: enlightenment is knowing the truth that consciousness is universal, theres only one consciousness.
Quote:
locospacebean said: Basically, you're saying "once you realize that you create your own reality, do you have nightmares?"
But the nature of a nightmare is the interpretation of a sleep experience as being victimized by an uncontrollable sleep state.
Once you realize that you create your own reality, you also realize that you create your interpretations and definitions, so by interpreting a sleep experience as a nightmare, you're simply volunteering yourself to be victimized by your own creations.
Others have stated this in their own ways.
It's like saying, "do you still see the sky as blue once you're enlightened?", when in fact, there is no sky, only the interpretation of what we define as "sky"... such as it is with nightmares, "bad trips" and other negative associations.
okay, but we have all had nightmares in the past, and many of us have experienced a paradigm shift to the third state of consciousness, where the term "awake" is expressed.
a nightmare is a dream that feels like hell, on any scale. in my experience, all of that ended when i reached the awakening stage.
are you saying it makes no sense to ask if nightmares cease after enlightenment? i feel it makes plenty of sense, lets cut out the jizz jazz about illusionary seperations for a minute and play with the cards we were dealt.
The fact is apparently after you are enlightened you are supposed to no longer have nightmares. Yes we are discussing that which cannot be discussed. Making intellectual a type of conversation about something which is supposed to be experienced and not talked about.
Does the nightmare just go away because of the way you interpret it? That is like saying that pain goes away because someone explains its all in your mind. If you poke yourself it is usually going to hurt really bad wether you "mind trick" yourself out of it or not.
Furthermore suffering on an emotional level is not related to pain is it? So even if you remove the emotional aspect what do you do with pain anyway like physical pain?
However, according to a certain few all of these things are caused by deeper attachments and aversions and even further habits based on deeper attachments and aversions. By removing those you remove the minds ability to react. On a deeper level all suffering is supposedly created by the idea that "I" is this or that and will be in this state forever or won't be in this state forever.
All if it is based on the deeper perception that something has to be a certain way or you suffer. Based on the idea that you are forever and not just transitory.
I guess its hard to imagine because suffering almost seems like a scientific process. It is of course on a physical level. If they don't put you under when you go under the knife it is possible you will literally go into shock from pain during the surgery and die or thrash about as the surgeon cuts you carefully.
This is difficult to tie into the concept of "the nightmare" and say if you meditate enough the nightmare will not be there. Obviously there are things in life we cannot control and nightmares a part of life. Sometimes they happen.
The key apparently lies deeper though. Apparently there are sensations you enjoy and do not enjoy and emotions you enjoy or do not enjoy. Without a reactive mind however and a physical set of reactions based on a reactive mind and lifetime of habits etc. The stages of unpleasant sensations and emotions are transitory.
Like the room being too hot and sweating. At first you may feel uncomfortable but you get used to it. After a few moments you learn to be happy anyway and even enjoy it. With a reactive mind though true suffering exists. You begin blaming yourself. You cannot let it be as it is. You pray to religion and create false gods. You cut yourself to sacrifice to them and your neighborhood and society help you they too develop this fear. This is true suffering. It lasts and lasts because a person does not understand.
Soon your cuts cannot heal and you develop infection and die a physically painful death and your mind holds on to emotions and you cry and curse god as doctors amputate the areas infected.
Lol its like i am exaggerating but as it goes suffering is a cycle that builds on itself and health is a cycle that builds on itself. Obviously suffering is much easier then healing.
Once a person begins the cycle of suffering it is much easier to stay in the cycle.
Take for example if you stub your toe. It hurts for second right? What if you stub your toe because someone kicked it? Now there is an emotional reaction. Now you are more likely to stub your toe again and again kicking the person back, intensifying the pain. This is what happens a lot when jokeshopbeard meets shroomerites. It is called intense suffering.
All jokes aside you get the point? Enlightenment is however easier to understand in concept but in experience it takes a lot of practice because of many lifetime habits involved in suffering that dont just disappear. Also many instincts are deeply rooted and can become reactive, at birth we are meant to survive. Deeply rooted in our behavior. Also at birth though the mind is relatively free of the ways of experience of mankind. A child is born with no state of mind.
They have the habits of suffering. The seed is planted as it can be said. But wether that seed grows or not is determind by the life of the child. If they stub their toe chances are they will cry but forget about it and not become reactive.
However, as shallow as the experience is the child will usually cry until they get attention thinking the attention causes the pain to numb. After all suffering is a deeply rooted mental issue. The child has not crafted deep mental scars and ideas of how society caused the pain and will cause pain again. However, the child still feels less pain with attention from the mother. It will intensify its physical pain and cry to its mother and cry and cry and it will take forever. The seed while weak and insignificant at that point has been planted. How far it will grow depends deeply on the phsychological development of the child and its life.
To meditate your mind out of reactions, to deeply cleanse oneself of the idea and experience of ego in ones habits is to remove emotional reaction, remove the forever imbedded concept of suffering given to "I" which cannot be permanent, which will not exist forever and completely be liberated from deep suffering beyond simple discomfort which is transitory.
Ok did this move us forward?
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I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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LightRay
Lord Hubert


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Re: if you are enlightened, please read. [Re: Deadfrancis]
#25098928 - 03/29/18 07:44 AM (5 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Deadfrancis said: enlightenment is knowing the truth that consciousness is universal, theres only one consciousness.
I call that awakening.
Enlightenment is beyond any words, words are labels, coes they have different frequecies and interpretations.
Maybe it is a state of permenance beyond all limitation of ego and thought.
To be truely one though you are essentially "DEAD" or returned to the source. 
The simplest interpretation is "lightening" to lighten, to realise its all imaginary, none of it matters and you are God, the creator, who did it to amuse oneself.
-------------------- The secret to life is to put positive loving energy Into every thought and action you do <3 Be Aware. Believe. Be here now Everything is a reflection of ones self. Of God and you are God. All is conscious. All is consciousness. There is no death, only life. Your mission is to raise your vibration and every one else around you. Open Your Mind!
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


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Re: if you are enlightened, please read. [Re: Deadfrancis]
#25099541 - 03/29/18 01:02 PM (5 years, 9 months ago) |
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Nightmares go away with smoking weed 
But I think it's ok to have them, as they always show something related to one's actual life which is worth pondering about.
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beforethedawn
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Re: if you are enlightened, please read. [Re: BlueCoyote]
#25100528 - 03/29/18 07:06 PM (5 years, 9 months ago) |
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Enlightenment is being in your natural state, free from being "this" or "that".
It is only coming off your denial that you are already enlightened that is the obstacle. There is only doubt to remove, but there is nothing to doubt about it. You can't doubt it.
I think at some stage in the process of contemplating and meditating far more than you should you just go insane and permanently stay as That.
It's great.
-------------------- Hostile humankind Can't you see you're fucking blind?
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Duncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum



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Re: if you are enlightened, please read. [Re: LightRay]
#25100757 - 03/29/18 09:14 PM (5 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
LightRay said: The simplest interpretation is "lightening" to lighten, to realise its all imaginary, none of it matters and you are God, the creator, who did it to amuse oneself.
All of life is perhaps acting on 'it's' behalf and all life is involved in a process of development, so I think it's a lot more likely and logical that this manifest is for the sake of learning and growth, rather than 'amusing oneself'...
There is good reason for the philosophy that we are 'made in his image'. To comprehend the higher, we analyse and consider the traits at the macro / micro level, which is life in the material world.
Edited by Duncan Rowhl (03/29/18 09:23 PM)
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beforethedawn
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Re: if you are enlightened, please read. [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
#25101041 - 03/29/18 11:52 PM (5 years, 9 months ago) |
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The thing you are seeking to treasure and worship in life is God. God is all things, including the highest perceptual dimension - Heaven, Wonderland, you name it. God is conquest of life, defeat of personal self. God is the all-perfect, all-embracing experience upon all 5 senses. God is travel, God is destination. Growth, maturation and infancy...
I mean you can't have it all. God is all. Be That.
Incompleteness, purpose... your journey and godhood are all present in Now.
Even defeat of your enemies is here now.
-------------------- Hostile humankind Can't you see you're fucking blind?
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beforethedawn
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Re: if you are enlightened, please read. [Re: beforethedawn]
#25101044 - 03/29/18 11:54 PM (5 years, 9 months ago) |
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It also means, that somehow, the world's salvation is here now.
Be kind of mathematical.
-------------------- Hostile humankind Can't you see you're fucking blind?
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Duncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum



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Re: if you are enlightened, please read. [Re: beforethedawn]
#25101447 - 03/30/18 06:10 AM (5 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
beforethedawn said: It also means, that somehow, the world's salvation is here now.
Be kind of mathematical.
To comprehend the eternal in contrast to linear time perhaps requires a mindset, in the moment, which is anti-mathematical.
The mathematical mind which assumes it is studying eternity is actually studying infinity (that which has a starting point).
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Fleabag Friend
OTD Free Bag Fiend



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Re: if you are enlightened, please read. [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
#25103299 - 03/30/18 09:26 PM (5 years, 9 months ago) |
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People call me an enlightened man — I detest that term — they can't find any other word to describe the way I am functioning. At the same time, I point out that there is no such thing as enlightenment at all. I say that because all my life I've searched and wanted to be an enlightened man, and I discovered that there is no such thing as enlightenment at all, and so the question whether a particular person is enlightened or not doesn't arise. I don't give a hoot for a sixth-century-BC Buddha, let alone all the other claimants we have in our midst. They are a bunch of exploiters, thriving on the gullibility of the people. There is no power outside of man. Man has created God out of fear. So the problem is fear and not God. I discovered for myself and by myself that there is no self to realize. That's the realization I am talking about. It comes as a shattering blow. It hits you like a thunderbolt. You have invested everything in one basket, self-realization, and, in the end, suddenly you discover that there is no self to discover, no self to realize. -UG Krishnamurti
-------------------- "Sometimes reasonable men must do unreasonable things."-Marvin Heemeyer 𝓐 𝔀𝓸𝓶𝓪𝓷, 𝓪 𝓭𝓸𝓰, 𝓪 𝔀𝓪𝓵𝓷𝓾𝓽 𝓽𝓻𝓮𝓮, 𝓽𝓱𝓮 𝓶𝓸𝓻𝓮 𝔂𝓸𝓾 𝓫𝓮𝓪𝓽 '𝓮𝓶, 𝓽𝓱𝓮 𝓫𝓮𝓽𝓽𝓮𝓻 𝓽𝓱𝓮𝔂 𝓫𝓮.
     𝓣𝓱𝔂 𝓦𝓲𝓵𝓵 𝓑𝓮 𝓓𝓸𝓷𝓮
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Duncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum



Registered: 10/08/12
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Re: if you are enlightened, please read. [Re: Fleabag Friend]
#25106485 - 04/01/18 11:27 AM (5 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Fleabag Friend said: People call me an enlightened man — I detest that term — they can't find any other word to describe the way I am functioning. At the same time, I point out that there is no such thing as enlightenment at all. I say that because all my life I've searched and wanted to be an enlightened man, and I discovered that there is no such thing as enlightenment at all, and so the question whether a particular person is enlightened or not doesn't arise. I don't give a hoot for a sixth-century-BC Buddha, let alone all the other claimants we have in our midst. They are a bunch of exploiters, thriving on the gullibility of the people. There is no power outside of man. Man has created God out of fear. So the problem is fear and not God. I discovered for myself and by myself that there is no self to realize. That's the realization I am talking about. It comes as a shattering blow. It hits you like a thunderbolt. You have invested everything in one basket, self-realization, and, in the end, suddenly you discover that there is no self to discover, no self to realize. -UG Krishnamurti
Some people depend upon God for their answers.
Others depend upon quotations...
Edited by Duncan Rowhl (04/01/18 12:58 PM)
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mitmitice1
Stranger
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Re: if you are enlightened, please read. [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
#25110767 - 04/03/18 11:25 AM (5 years, 9 months ago) |
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hi man, do still getting nightmares?? if so, i guess you are not "awaken". it can be achallnge from angels of god(the only one) to make you prove yourself . prove your belife.. lets say you need to get to that point that you know god is protecting you. you got angels around you. in the nightmare prey. and you will see help will come. and thats is the next level i think. you will get into situation that you are no longer afraid of nightmares, you will get a nighmare and you wont be afraid. you will win. i gues yeah every one got their own shit on life
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Duncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum



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Re: if you are enlightened, please read. [Re: mitmitice1] 1
#25111684 - 04/03/18 05:39 PM (5 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
mitmitice1 said: hi man, do still getting nightmares?? if so, i guess you are not "awaken". it can be achallnge from angels of god(the only one) to make you prove yourself . prove your belife.. lets say you need to get to that point that you know god is protecting you. you got angels around you. in the nightmare prey. and you will see help will come. and thats is the next level i think. you will get into situation that you are no longer afraid of nightmares, you will get a nighmare and you wont be afraid. you will win. i gues yeah every one got their own shit on life
You seemingly assume the process of 'awakening' (for what many definitions that may have) as a one time affair in which one cannot revert. I beleive the physche is in a constant state of ebb and flow, constantly challenged to retain grace fighting to surrender to traits of the destructive ego. Consequently, if we fail in our efforts, we 'Fall from Grace'.
Many who are 'awaken' are not necessarily lying dormant in bliss. They need to exercise fortitude in every step they take (and that does become more natural, granted) to uphold the higher state. There's umpteen analogies for this principle including the 'Devil is always knocking at the door', to ' The Barbarians will always come (to your paradise)' - or words to that effect. There is, undoubtedly, potent opposition against the 'light'.
I like your idea of nightmares being a challenge. Many people, including myself have considered this, but retaining the higher self, particularly in the midst of challenging cultures is an ongoing effort. It is, 'The Good Fight'. It is 'The Test'. We can be ignorant to our own self detriments ('falling from grace'), so the nightmare perhaps, is the indicator which brings the issue to the forefront in the nightly life de-brief, in a bid to summon the psyche to return to grace.
Before reaching Christhood, a person endures a period vast darkness as they come face to face with their destructive ego, akin to a seed enduring the darkness of soil, before it grows into the light. Cute, cliche' but relevant.
Edited by Duncan Rowhl (04/03/18 06:00 PM)
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mitmitice1
Stranger
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Re: if you are enlightened, please read. [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
#25137710 - 04/14/18 06:47 AM (5 years, 9 months ago) |
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intersting. i agree that many awaken people can be actually evil, grace and be awakened are diffrent things but can be connect. becouse t he higher self is connceted to god, wich is gracefull. butt yeah the ego can be stronger then the higher self, it can convest you to thigs. butt there is situations where the EGO is the higher self, and becoming higher and greater,your ego is your desire to be the ONE or to be the man,i can say without your ego you will be uncomplete, now there is too tipes baiscle, the black ones and the white,the higher self and downgrade self(the ego)(not sure but butt) about what you said on the dark powers fighting the light... its not really like this. i mean god made this world from 2 sides, the punishment, and the grace. torah said god made many worlds befor this one, one time was on the panishment line, and the opther was on the gracefull line and it was amess, so god(the all and all in and around) made this world of both sides, and wish it succeed. thats why karma is actually a thing, the bad angels want to punish you,the good ones want to forgive and give you chance. if u ask where is the g race here? i said u were bad person and did 1000 crimes, after this 1000 crimes you get HIT. 1 hit for all of your sins and whatever. that the basicly idea. lets say if you are in high position, the bad side will test you always, the grace side will help you and forgive you are failed or tho(still not sure about this). overall god decide, u just prey,be honest trust me god knows evry thing. sry for my english, not my home language . * god gave riligiun yo help you enter the roud to heaven,there is many ways. the basic is be righthous(GOOD) dont be evil and you got your key.(i hope)
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mitmitice1
Stranger
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Re: if you are enlightened, please read. [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
#25137711 - 04/14/18 06:48 AM (5 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Duncan Rowhl said:
Quote:
mitmitice1 said: hi man, do still getting nightmares?? if so, i guess you are not "awaken". it can be achallnge from angels of god(the only one) to make you prove yourself . prove your belife.. lets say you need to get to that point that you know god is protecting you. you got angels around you. in the nightmare prey. and you will see help will come. and thats is the next level i think. you will get into situation that you are no longer afraid of nightmares, you will get a nighmare and you wont be afraid. you will win. i gues yeah every one got their own shit on life
You seemingly assume the process of 'awakening' (for what many definitions that may have) as a one time affair in which one cannot revert. I beleive the physche is in a constant state of ebb and flow, constantly challenged to retain grace fighting to surrender to traits of the destructive ego. Consequently, if we fail in our efforts, we 'Fall from Grace'.
Many who are 'awaken' are not necessarily lying dormant in bliss. They need to exercise fortitude in every step they take (and that does become more natural, granted) to uphold the higher state. There's umpteen analogies for this principle including the 'Devil is always knocking at the door', to ' The Barbarians will always come (to your paradise)' - or words to that effect. There is, undoubtedly, potent opposition against the 'light'.
I like your idea of nightmares being a challenge. Many people, including myself have considered this, but retaining the higher self, particularly in the midst of challenging cultures is an ongoing effort. It is, 'The Good Fight'. It is 'The Test'. We can be ignorant to our own self detriments ('falling from grace'), so the nightmare perhaps, is the indicator which brings the issue to the forefront in the nightly life de-brief, in a bid to summon the psyche to return to grace.
Before reaching Christhood, a person endures a period vast darkness as they come face to face with their destructive ego, akin to a seed enduring the darkness of soil, before it grows into the light. Cute, cliche' but relevant. 
forgot to mention you
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crkhd
☾☼☽

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Re: if you are enlightened, please read. [Re: mitmitice1]
#25140806 - 04/15/18 11:24 AM (5 years, 9 months ago) |
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I am in Sahaja Samadhi right now on a quest to attain level 3 rainbow body. After enlightenment the mental apparatus works the same as before but with the added clout of the kundalini superconsciousness which manages one's affairs on a supernatural level i.e. supernature. Nightmares still happen but there is complete detachment and equanimity when they do (level headedness). I hope that answers your question. I have achieved Buddha and this is my final incarnation before ParaNirvana. I am a jivanmukti meaning I have attained liberation while still alive
-------------------- "Everything there is, and all that there is, is a Pattern of unspeakable proportion. The Pattern contains everything that is, completely fixed in succession, all the minimal particles interconnected in every way that is. Every way that is is not every conceivable way, because not everything that can be conceived is manifest in the pattern." "THE Human, you, is a miniscule but essential part of that pattern. In it lies complete fulfillment. It will never become something it is not, but it will never need to be anything else." - Wiccan_Seeker "If boring drudgery was the way of the universe, everything would have killed itself long ago." - Spacerific
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Duncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum



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Re: if you are enlightened, please read. [Re: mitmitice1]
#25142423 - 04/16/18 01:14 AM (5 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
mitmitice1 said: about what you said on the dark powers fighting the light... its not really like this.
Insightful reply. 
To clarify, I don't really mean that the forces are surely external, but rather the psyche is acting as the mediator of perception and the war is of our own making. A more subtle analogy being a Tug of War...
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