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OfflineBrian Jones
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Trump's Tarrifs * 1
    #25034158 - 03/02/18 05:25 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

What is your opinion of Trump's proposed recent sizable tarrifs on steel and aluminum?

    To me there are two issues here. First, in in spite of what Trump says there is no way the American Steel industry is coming back. I know less about aluminum. Second, Tarrif wars are considered a major cause of the Great Depression. The stock market dropped after Trump's announcement fearing a trade war.

    What do you think?


--------------------
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Offlineqman
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Brian Jones] * 1
    #25034235 - 03/02/18 06:01 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Trump needs to do more tariffs, our trade deficit is too large.


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OfflineZyiadem
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Brian Jones]
    #25034240 - 03/02/18 06:02 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Well he already smashed the solar industry which employs more than coal and was making a big boom on the west coast, and was one of the fastest growing sectors of the economy, until he put a 30% tariff on that.

Seems to me like trump is going to bleed legitimate industry's dry, while ensuring less people rise to wealth. His attacks on small business are clear, taking most tax write offs away from small businesses.

These tactics are simply cut and burn, if this crashes the economy it's not like him or his friends are going to be here for the fallout.


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The more I realize it.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Brian Jones]
    #25034705 - 03/02/18 09:02 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Why do you say "there is no way the American Steel industry is coming back"?

Given the current trade deficit, which we didn't have before the Great Depression, I believe it could benefit us.



If we started buying aluminum and steel domestically, and other countries didn't buy American aluminum and steel because of retaliatory tariffs, we'd have a net gain because we used to buy more than we sold, and the trade deficit would go down.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25034796 - 03/02/18 09:41 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Do we have the capacity for increased production? Seems unlikely that this will spur more american production, especially aluminum for which there are technological reasons why we don't produce very much - aluminum requires a ridiculous amount of electricity to process it from ore. Increasing production significantly would require increasing generation capacity and doing it cheaply. Foreign competitors have cheap electricity sources (the reason they are the big producers in the first place). That's not really an option in the US short of building new hydro plants in remote areas.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: qman] * 1
    #25034820 - 03/02/18 09:47 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Trump needs to do more tariffs, our trade deficit is too large.




America doesnt have the leverage it used to, other nations will retaliate and we'll either suffer and look like idiots, or go to war....and suffer and look like idiots.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: koods]
    #25034861 - 03/02/18 10:05 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Do we have the capacity for increased production? Seems unlikely that this will spur more american production, especially aluminum for which there are technological reasons why we don't produce very much - aluminum requires a ridiculous amount of electricity to process it from ore. Increasing production significantly would require increasing generation capacity and doing it cheaply. Foreign competitors have cheap electricity sources (the reason they are the big producers in the first place). That's not really an option in the US short of building new hydro plants in remote areas.



But it is an option if we impose tariffs to offset these disadvantages.  Here's a good article from a very respectable economic think tank:

Trade remedies for steel and aluminum are long overdue


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25034920 - 03/02/18 10:47 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Cars are gonna get more expensive. Energy will as well. Those big poles are steel.

Construction is gonna take a hit, that'll be close to Trump's pocket. Or, possibly, Trump's pocket will get larger as a result. The wall is gonna get more expensive, no doubt.

Also, there are a surprising amount of consumer goods that use aluminum. I was listening to a radio program that was saying beer prices are gonna have to go up almost 3 cents a can to cover the additional cost of the aluminum. Breweries won't eat it.

That hits close to home.

One or two factories in Pittsburgh might reopen though. At the cost of cancer in the greater Pitt area.


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OfflineThundermuscle75
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 3
    #25034932 - 03/02/18 10:54 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

koods said:
Do we have the capacity for increased production? Seems unlikely that this will spur more american production, especially aluminum for which there are technological reasons why we don't produce very much - aluminum requires a ridiculous amount of electricity to process it from ore. Increasing production significantly would require increasing generation capacity and doing it cheaply. Foreign competitors have cheap electricity sources (the reason they are the big producers in the first place). That's not really an option in the US short of building new hydro plants in remote areas.



But it is an option if we impose tariffs to offset these disadvantages.  Here's a good article from a very respectable economic think tank:

Trade remedies for steel and aluminum are long overdue




Interesting.

I wonder how this would affect the market for scrap metal?

We currently send most of our scrap to China to be recycled and sent back to us in the form of consumer products and bulk metals.

It looks like an inefficient system to me, probably excessive from an environmental impact standpoint as well.

Chinese metal manufacturers are also known for poor quality controll. Around here poor quality Chinese steel is famous for all the trouble it's caused with the Bay Bridge.
https://www.wired.com/2015/06/mystery-brand-new-bay-bridges-corroded-steel/

Definitely the kind of policy that will send ripples through the economy.


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25035022 - 03/03/18 12:23 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Why do you say "there is no way the American Steel industry is coming back"?

Given the current trade deficit, which we didn't have before the Great Depression, I believe it could benefit us.



If we started buying aluminum and steel domestically, and other countries didn't buy American aluminum and steel because of retaliatory tariffs, we'd have a net gain because we used to buy more than we sold, and the trade deficit would go down.




This is why I (as a complete non-expert) on the situation) said there is no way American steel is coming back. Working in a steel mill is a very tough and frequently unpleasant job. There is no way Americans will do this job unless they are paid well. So there is a big labor cost disadvantage for the U.S.

    But I decided to do some research and here are some better informed views.

https://www.marketplace.org/2016/08/09/world/steels-decline-was-about-technology-not-trade-0
The title of this article summarizes the argument.

https://www.cnn.com/2016/03/23/opinions/american-steel-industry-gibson-schmitt/index.html
This interpretation is centered on trade.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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OfflineThundermuscle75
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Brian Jones]
    #25035028 - 03/03/18 12:33 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

A friend of mine worked in one of the Mills that shut down in the '80s.

I'm sure nostalgia colored his memory, but he spoke fondly of it.

I assumed it was mostly unskilled labor. In actuality he learned a lot about metallurgy and metal work. He continued to do some custom wrought iron work decades later.


--------------------


"Rape ... Is a... can of apples" -Fiery


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Brian Jones]
    #25035316 - 03/03/18 06:40 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
What is your opinion of Trump's proposed recent sizable tarrifs on steel and aluminum?
...




Waiting to see if it applies to Canada or not,
giving the benefit of the doubt right now

Quote:

Canada is seeking an exemption to new U.S. trade restrictions on aluminum and steel, and is vowing to retaliate if it's slapped with any new tariffs.

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau called the proposal "absolutely unacceptable," echoing the phrase used by Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland yesterday.

A government official, speaking on background, said Canada believes any new tariffs should not apply to this country due to the highly integrated nature of the North American steel market, and because of the close co-operation between the two countries on defence issues.

A final decision from U.S. President Donald Trump is expected next week. Meanwhile, the Canadian government is discussing what its next steps will be if Washington doesn't order an exemption. For now, officials continue to make Canada's case at every possible level, the official said.



http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/steel-trade-tariffs-trump-1.4558967

Will judge Trudeau harder than Trump if trade keeps going downhill
even tho it was part of my position that Hillary would have been better for trade with Trump as 'better' for America

Trump already went after softwood,
then after milk when Trudeau took his daughter to a play on Broadway
but if Canada's leader ends up being childish in response to Trump, then will hold complaint


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Thundermuscle75]
    #25036321 - 03/03/18 03:43 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Thundermuscle75 said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

koods said:
Do we have the capacity for increased production? Seems unlikely that this will spur more american production, especially aluminum for which there are technological reasons why we don't produce very much - aluminum requires a ridiculous amount of electricity to process it from ore. Increasing production significantly would require increasing generation capacity and doing it cheaply. Foreign competitors have cheap electricity sources (the reason they are the big producers in the first place). That's not really an option in the US short of building new hydro plants in remote areas.



But it is an option if we impose tariffs to offset these disadvantages.  Here's a good article from a very respectable economic think tank:

Trade remedies for steel and aluminum are long overdue




Interesting.

I wonder how this would affect the market for scrap metal?

We currently send most of our scrap to China to be recycled and sent back to us in the form of consumer products and bulk metals.

It looks like an inefficient system to me, probably excessive from an environmental impact standpoint as well.

Chinese metal manufacturers are also known for poor quality controll. Around here poor quality Chinese steel is famous for all the trouble it's caused with the Bay Bridge.
https://www.wired.com/2015/06/mystery-brand-new-bay-bridges-corroded-steel/

Definitely the kind of policy that will send ripples through the economy.




Transportation is stupid cheap and efficient. Humans got their logistics down.  It's why it's like, 4x more efficient to make beef in NZ and ship it to the EU, instead of making beef in the EU.

I would not be even a little bit surprised if it was vastly more efficient to process scrap in China and ship it back as goods. Plus, they have more hydro power, and more solar power, and the primary energy cost is going to be melting everything down, and not shipping it across the pacific. So environmentally speaking, it's probably better to ship anyway.

As for quality control...if it didn't do the job, people wouldn't buy it. It's just easier to blame the other guy, especially if they look different.

EDIT:

Looks like a trade war's a-brewin'. Seems like European cars are next. Good, because the rising costs of steel will make domestic cars even more expensive. In addition to the general all-around shittiness that is the American made vehicle.


Edited by Kryptos (03/03/18 04:08 PM)


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Kryptos]
    #25036901 - 03/03/18 08:35 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Every time trump proposes something a great screeching and cackling goes up like when chickens see a hawk flying overhead. All he has done is propose a tariff, its up to congress to pass it. Trump is not like mr i got a pen and a phone, he is letting congress do its job. If it passes it means the dems signed off on it too.

20% is just an opening figure in the bargaining. He is correct in that they are destroying our metals industry by state subsidies, china especially. Why should we let them get away with that? Previous presidents were possibly paid off by other countries to let it keep going. You lefties can screech and cry all you want but it sounds like a good move to me. You want to let this keep on and let them ruin industry after industry?

What is china going to do, stop selling us cheap crap? promises promises. More likely they will work something out, maybe give a better price or limit exports.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Stonehenge] * 2
    #25036924 - 03/03/18 08:51 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

I could support well reasoned tariffs, but I would prefer to simply require that goods sold in the U.S. conform to U.S. production and labor laws and regulations, regardless of where they are produced.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Stonehenge] * 3
    #25037111 - 03/03/18 10:22 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Every time trump proposes something a great screeching and cackling goes up like when chickens see a hawk flying overhead. All he has done is propose a tariff, its up to congress to pass it. Trump is not like mr i got a pen and a phone, he is letting congress do its job. If it passes it means the dems signed off on it too.

20% is just an opening figure in the bargaining. He is correct in that they are destroying our metals industry by state subsidies, china especially. Why should we let them get away with that? Previous presidents were possibly paid off by other countries to let it keep going. You lefties can screech and cry all you want but it sounds like a good move to me. You want to let this keep on and let them ruin industry after industry?

What is china going to do, stop selling us cheap crap? promises promises. More likely they will work something out, maybe give a better price or limit exports.




Point by point:

False, the tariff was passed using the national security trade exception. Congress has nothing to do with it.

Dems didn't sign off on anything. Except for the Russia Sanctions that Trump has yet to enforce.

It's 25%, not 20%.

China isn't even in the top 10 of steel exporters to the US. Canada, Mexico, and lots of the EU, on the other hand...

Interestingly, Canada also imports a good half of US steel, so they could just turn around and do the same to us.

Well, yeah, this is gonna gonna ruin a good chunk of industry. There's an estimated 6.5M jobs in converting steel into steel goods. Their lives are about to suck. It's like the dishwasher rack makers, they'll end up up like BBQ grills! Not made domestically anymore.

As for what China can do? They could stop buying US debt. We've pretty much doubled our deficit this past year, and if China stops being one of our main financiers, well, rates are gonna go *UP*. Wonder what the deficit hawks in Congress are gonna say about that? Well, actually, they'll say two things: (1) cut social programs, and (2) only democratic deficits are bad, republican deficits are patriotic!


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Kryptos] * 4
    #25037233 - 03/03/18 11:27 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Fact checking Stonehenge is a full time job


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: koods]
    #25037280 - 03/04/18 12:02 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Hey, somebody's got to do it. It seems like we have a good rotation going.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Kryptos]
    #25037699 - 03/04/18 08:24 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

>the tariff was passed using the national security trade exception. Congress has nothing to do with it

Evidence of that?

The news media calls it a "proposed" tariff so they are saying it hasn't happened yet which makes your claim very suspect. Its just an opening bid, they will modify the figures or drop it entirely if we get enough in return. We will no doubt go very easy on canada.

We are in a lot of one sided trade deals with many countries. This is why we have such a huge trade deficit. Only traitors who hate their own country would want to see that continue yet many on the far left seem to favor it.

I see he is now saying that if europe retaliates we will simply slap a tariff on cars, for example which up to now have been allowed to come in by the millions. I predict we come out of this better than we went in and I can safely predict the media and far left will never admit it even when the numbers are indisputable.

This has been overdue for a long time and up to now no one has had the guts to do anything about it. Our politicians are paid off by anyone with cash so if they get $100k each and it costs usa $100b a year, its a win for them since they don't care. Trump doesn't need or accept any bribes.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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Offlineqman
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Stonehenge]
    #25037805 - 03/04/18 09:22 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

When the Democrats, Republicans and MSM all piss on the idea of Trump's tariffs, we know it's a good idea for US citizens.


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Invisiblewaves

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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: qman]
    #25037896 - 03/04/18 10:04 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
When the Democrats, Republicans and MSM all piss on the idea of Trump's tariffs, we know it's a good idea for US citizens.




Oh yeah, that totally makes sense.

:kingtard:


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Offlineqman
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: waves]
    #25037933 - 03/04/18 10:22 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

waves said:
Quote:

qman said:
When the Democrats, Republicans and MSM all piss on the idea of Trump's tariffs, we know it's a good idea for US citizens.




Oh yeah, that totally makes sense.





Do you understand WHY The Establishment is against economic tariffs?  Do you know what is potentially as sake?

Do you understand why BOTH parties and the MS Financial Media only give one side of the argument?


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: qman]
    #25037956 - 03/04/18 10:36 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

^ of course not, the media is always right didn't you know?


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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OfflinePsilynut2
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Stonehenge] * 1
    #25037979 - 03/04/18 10:50 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ou understand why BOTH parties and the MS Financial Media only give one side of the argument?





Thats fucking delusional conspiracy nutter  bullshit .
  I’ve been watching trump supporters attempt to explain this shit on CNN all morning .


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Psilynut2] * 2
    #25038104 - 03/04/18 11:48 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

TRUE THAT CHINA doesn't import lot of steel to the US.

The steel industry is not the same as 30 years ago.  Most of the US steel production is specialty steel mill, and recycled iron, steel, and other metals.

the tariffs do NOT make sense.

The Smoot Hawley act was (arguable) exacerbated the depression.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoot%E2%80%93Hawley_Tariff_Act

the tariffs proposed can hurt economy.


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: starfire_xes] * 1
    #25038114 - 03/04/18 11:52 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

The least economically savvy people in the country voted for trump. Why the hell would anyone think their ideas are worth anything. These are people who haven't had jobs in years and live off the nutritional value of oxycodone


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #25038192 - 03/04/18 12:38 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
I could support well reasoned tariffs, but I would prefer to simply require that goods sold in the U.S. conform to U.S. production and labor laws and regulations, regardless of where they are produced.



:whathesaid:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: starfire_xes]
    #25038516 - 03/04/18 03:23 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Trump is just proposing some tariffs, nothing has been put in stone yet. He is firing warning shots and the final result will be much less. We may impose tariffs on countries in which we have a negative balance of trade or in which they are using dirty tricks to stop our imports. I wish previous presidents had the guts to bring up this conversation. We will be better off after its done

China may not sell us a lot of steel but they sell us boatloads of other stuff. A small tariff of perhaps 5% would do a world of good for usa manufacturers. I suspect something like that will come out of it.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Stonehenge] * 3
    #25038690 - 03/04/18 04:44 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Come on dude. Trump is an impulsive moron. That's all there is to it


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Psilynut2]
    #25038711 - 03/04/18 04:59 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Quote:

ou understand why BOTH parties and the MS Financial Media only give one side of the argument?





Thats fucking delusional conspiracy nutter  bullshit .
  I’ve been watching trump supporters attempt to explain this shit on CNN all morning .




I'm sure CNN finds the best people to put out the most accurate counterarguments to The Establishments economic agenda. 

:huxleyfacepalm:

Is it also a conspiracy the D's give Bernie the shaft because he ALSO supported economic tariffs and many socialist programs?  :rofl2:


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: starfire_xes]
    #25038714 - 03/04/18 05:01 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
TRUE THAT CHINA doesn't import lot of steel to the US.

The steel industry is not the same as 30 years ago.  Most of the US steel production is specialty steel mill, and recycled iron, steel, and other metals.

the tariffs do NOT make sense.

The Smoot Hawley act was (arguable) exacerbated the depression.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoot%E2%80%93Hawley_Tariff_Act

the tariffs proposed can hurt economy.




And your solution to massive trade deficits?  You do realize there's nothing free trade about the current exchange?


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25038721 - 03/04/18 05:04 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
I could support well reasoned tariffs, but I would prefer to simply require that goods sold in the U.S. conform to U.S. production and labor laws and regulations, regardless of where they are produced.



:whathesaid:




And take away the cheap cost of labor/production, what would be the point in their minds?  :lol:


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: qman] * 1
    #25038766 - 03/04/18 05:30 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Lets never do anything that will upset the bourgeoisie.


Lol :lol:


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Zyiadem] * 1
    #25039017 - 03/04/18 07:22 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Zyiadem said:
Well he already smashed the solar industry which employs more than coal and was making a big boom on the west coast, and was one of the fastest growing sectors of the economy, until he put a 30% tariff on that.

Seems to me like trump is going to bleed legitimate industry's dry, while ensuring less people rise to wealth. His attacks on small business are clear, taking most tax write offs away from small businesses.

These tactics are simply cut and burn, if this crashes the economy it's not like him or his friends are going to be here for the fallout.



Whats wrong with tariffs on imported solar panels? Wouldn't they just manufacture them at home, instead of importing from china?


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: qman] * 1
    #25040105 - 03/05/18 09:55 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:



I'm sure CNN finds the best people to put out the most accurate counterarguments to The Establishments economic agenda. 





They are usually former and current trump appointees / employees . They were and are the best people  according to trump .  Are you saying people who support trump policies generally don’t know what the fuck they are talking about ?


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Psilynut2]
    #25040199 - 03/05/18 10:54 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Quote:



I'm sure CNN finds the best people to put out the most accurate counterarguments to The Establishments economic agenda. 





They are usually former and current trump appointees / employees . They were and are the best people  according to trump .  Are you saying people who support trump policies generally don’t know what the fuck they are talking about ?




I don't know who they were or what they said, so I'm not going to comment on it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/ryan-splits-with-trump-as-gop-lawmakers-move-to-block-planned-tariffs/2018/03/05/cbb5c786-2094-11e8-94da-ebf9d112159c_story.html

Paul Ryan and the bought and paid Republicans hate the idea, their sponsors don't want trade deficits to get reduced and they don't want tariffs to gain any form of momentum.

It appears you and Paul Ryan are on the same side of this issue, did you also favor the corporate tax cuts like Ryan did?


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: qman] * 1
    #25040309 - 03/05/18 11:45 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Everything you just said is irrelavent to the point I’m making . They do present both sides of the arguments .  Constantly .  My feelings about those people and things won’t make what you said not be bullshit .

  I don’t like Paul Ryan , his ideas , Republicans paid for or not ,  their ideas or trumps ideas , corporate tax cuts , or trade wars .


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Psilynut2] * 1
    #25040553 - 03/05/18 02:03 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

In response to the proposed tarrifs, Canada says they will also impose them on us. I'm guessing everyone else will too.

    Trump says "trade wars are so easy". If they were easy we would have done this decades ago.


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Psilynut2]
    #25040598 - 03/05/18 02:23 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Everything you just said is irrelavent to the point I’m making . They do present both sides of the arguments .  Constantly .  My feelings about those people and things won’t make what you said not be bullshit .

  I don’t like Paul Ryan , his ideas , Republicans paid for or not ,  their ideas or trumps ideas , corporate tax cuts , or trade wars .




"They do present both sides of the arguments"

In my opinion, CNN, Fox or any other MSM news outlet does NOT make a good attempt doing it, it's about ratings, not being intellectually honest.

"what you said not be bullshit"

So according to your logic, the very same Congress that passed the corporate tax cuts to benefit the wealthy are now looking out for the peasants to stop Trump's economic tariffs.  :flowstone:

It really doesn't even matter, there are not going to be any meaningful tariffs implemented, that would cost the elite trillions pre year in profits, that's not gonna happen.  This is theater and nothing more.


Edited by qman (03/05/18 02:24 PM)


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Stonehenge]
    #25040603 - 03/05/18 02:25 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Trump is just proposing some tariffs, nothing has been put in stone yet. He is firing warning shots and the final result will be much less. We may impose tariffs on countries in which we have a negative balance of trade or in which they are using dirty tricks to stop our imports. I wish previous presidents had the guts to bring up this conversation. We will be better off after its done

China may not sell us a lot of steel but they sell us boatloads of other stuff. A small tariff of perhaps 5% would do a world of good for usa manufacturers. I suspect something like that will come out of it.




I'm not a Trump fan but I think and hope you might be right.

This could be art of the deal negotiating tactics. His alleged skill as a negotiator was about the only good thing I saw in Trump when he was elected.

The mega tarrifs he has proposed are ridiculous but there are some cases where tarrifs make sense. They could also be a leveraging to for other trade deals.


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Thundermuscle75] * 1
    #25040610 - 03/05/18 02:30 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Thundermuscle75 said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Trump is just proposing some tariffs, nothing has been put in stone yet. He is firing warning shots and the final result will be much less. We may impose tariffs on countries in which we have a negative balance of trade or in which they are using dirty tricks to stop our imports. I wish previous presidents had the guts to bring up this conversation. We will be better off after its done

China may not sell us a lot of steel but they sell us boatloads of other stuff. A small tariff of perhaps 5% would do a world of good for usa manufacturers. I suspect something like that will come out of it.




I'm not a Trump fan but I think and hope you might be right.

This could be art of the deal negotiating tactics. His alleged skill as a negotiator was about the only good thing I saw in Trump when he was elected.

The mega tarrifs he has proposed are ridiculous but there are some cases where tarrifs make sense. They could also be a leveraging to for other trade deals.




Do know what's more ridiculous?  The US trade deficit, where is your outrage over it?


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Brian Jones] * 1
    #25040638 - 03/05/18 02:43 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

i had a "trade war" with one of my competition in our local, home market area.  i also had a mutual "no compete" gentleman's agreement with another one of my competition in our home market area.

one of those gave me fucking heartburn, made me lose sleep, pissed off a few customers, pissed off at least one manufacturer, and generally sucked.  it also cost me money on a regular basis until we finally choked that other company into submission.

the other one made it possible for me to better and more quickly serve my customers and made us more profitable while also providing me with a lot of knowledge that would have been hard to come by otherwise.

it's pretty obvious which is which, right?  of course my situations had very, very little in common with international trade wars, but it seems that the bellicose type ends up giving our nation heartburn more often than it enriches us.


Edited by relic (03/05/18 03:36 PM)


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: relic]
    #25040697 - 03/05/18 03:05 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

I hate Trumpy as much as the next guy and I'm not a huge fan of tariffs anyway, but I do believe that if the U.S. is ever going to impose it's will on international trade again, it has to happen soon.


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: ballsalsa]
    #25040771 - 03/05/18 03:34 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

do you think there is any good reason for the US to do so (impose its will on....)?  my whole point of that post was that i find better outcomes while teasing bees with honey rather than vinegar.  it seems the US does too as long as we don't intentionally tilt the table too far in the direction of a trading partner.

i defer to scientists who study these these things their whole lives and it seems the consensus is that trade wars and tariffs don't provide favorable outcomes for the united states, but again it's not my forte and i probably should do more studying before spouting.


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: relic]
    #25040778 - 03/05/18 03:39 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

I think balls had a good idea earlier.  Only impose tariffs on countries that don't have or enforce production and labor laws and who pay shit wages to their workers.


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: relic]
    #25040779 - 03/05/18 03:39 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

trade wars are just like shooting wars in that people like to talk about them more than they like to fight them out.
I don't necessarily think a trade war is a good idea, but i do think that if we were to "win" one, it would have to be within the next 20 years or so


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #25040790 - 03/05/18 03:42 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I think balls had a good idea earlier.  Only impose tariffs on countries that don't have or enforce production and labor laws and who pay shit wages to their workers.




I would go further than that.  If I had my druthers, any non-compliant country would be barred from doing business in the U.S. at all.  Do an end run around the tariff issue.


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25040813 - 03/05/18 03:53 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I think balls had a good idea earlier.  Only impose tariffs on countries that don't have or enforce production and labor laws and who pay shit wages to their workers.




I have no issue with that policy because I know they would never comply, so the outcome would end up being tariffs.

Global corporations don't go into third world nations because of the cultural enrichment, they go there for the cheap labor and lack of regulation.


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: qman] * 1
    #25040855 - 03/05/18 04:06 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Let us look at the last time we tried this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_United_States_steel_tariff

Quote:

The Bush 2002 steel tariff was a political issue in the United States regarding a tariff that President George W. Bush placed on imported steel on March 5, 2002 (took effect March 20). The tariffs were lifted by Bush on December 4, 2003. Research shows that the tariffs adversely affected US GDP and employment.




Quote:

In September 2003, the U.S. International Trade Commission (ITC) examined the economic effects of the Bush 2002 Steel Tariffs. The economy-wide analysis was designed to focus on the impacts that arose from the relative price changes resulting from the imposition of the tariffs, and estimated that the impact of the tariffs on the U.S. welfare ranged between a gain of $65.6 million (0.0006% of GDP) to a loss of $110.0 million (0.0011% of GDP). A majority of steel-consuming businesses reported that neither continuing nor ending the tariffs would change employment, international competitiveness, or capital investment.[7]

According to a 2005 review of existing research, all studies on the tariffs "find that the costs of the Safeguard Measures outweighed their benefits in terms of aggregate GDP and employment as well as having an important redistributive impact."[1]

Steel production rose slightly during the period of the tariff. [8] The protection of the steel industry in the United States may have had unintended consequences and perverse effects. A study from 2003 that was paid for by CITAC, a trade association of businesses that use raw materials, found that around 200,000 jobs were lost as a result.




From what I've read it's estimated these new tariffs will result in the loss of 100K - 150k jobs related to the steel industry.


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: musiclover420]
    #25041025 - 03/05/18 05:09 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

musiclover420 said:
Let us look at the last time we tried this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_United_States_steel_tariff

Quote:

The Bush 2002 steel tariff was a political issue in the United States regarding a tariff that President George W. Bush placed on imported steel on March 5, 2002 (took effect March 20). The tariffs were lifted by Bush on December 4, 2003. Research shows that the tariffs adversely affected US GDP and employment.




Quote:

In September 2003, the U.S. International Trade Commission (ITC) examined the economic effects of the Bush 2002 Steel Tariffs. The economy-wide analysis was designed to focus on the impacts that arose from the relative price changes resulting from the imposition of the tariffs, and estimated that the impact of the tariffs on the U.S. welfare ranged between a gain of $65.6 million (0.0006% of GDP) to a loss of $110.0 million (0.0011% of GDP). A majority of steel-consuming businesses reported that neither continuing nor ending the tariffs would change employment, international competitiveness, or capital investment.[7]

According to a 2005 review of existing research, all studies on the tariffs "find that the costs of the Safeguard Measures outweighed their benefits in terms of aggregate GDP and employment as well as having an important redistributive impact."[1]

Steel production rose slightly during the period of the tariff. [8] The protection of the steel industry in the United States may have had unintended consequences and perverse effects. A study from 2003 that was paid for by CITAC, a trade association of businesses that use raw materials, found that around 200,000 jobs were lost as a result.




From what I've read it's estimated these new tariffs will result in the loss of 100K - 150k jobs related to the steel industry.



You know that they know all of that right? Do you really think the government would lack the foresight to check what happened in 2002, but some random guy on the internet does? In fact they know more than we do. They have privè knowledge, we coulnt even dream of


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Brian Jones]
    #25041061 - 03/05/18 05:22 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

In response to the OP's original question, I think placing tariffs on steel and aluminum is a disastrous policy decision.  It will place an undue financial burden on many American companies which will kill more jobs than are created through new metal manufactories.  Trump's going to move forward with his decision for votes, and there are people stupid enough to think that this policy decision is a jobs creator.  :facepalm:


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Brian Jones] * 2
    #25041066 - 03/05/18 05:24 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Good. We should have more.

I think that they'll have a negative impact on our economy, but that's not why I support them.

I support them because I think it'll be incredibly good for the US strategically. It'll slow the growth of our rivals while fueling our growth, potentially shifting the balance of power more in our favor. It puts our rivals at a disadvantage while putting us at an advantage.

So fuck yeah, tariff the shit out of stuff. :thumbup:


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: qman]
    #25041177 - 03/05/18 05:46 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Thundermuscle75 said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Trump is just proposing some tariffs, nothing has been put in stone yet. He is firing warning shots and the final result will be much less. We may impose tariffs on countries in which we have a negative balance of trade or in which they are using dirty tricks to stop our imports. I wish previous presidents had the guts to bring up this conversation. We will be better off after its done

China may not sell us a lot of steel but they sell us boatloads of other stuff. A small tariff of perhaps 5% would do a world of good for usa manufacturers. I suspect something like that will come out of it.




I'm not a Trump fan but I think and hope you might be right.

This could be art of the deal negotiating tactics. His alleged skill as a negotiator was about the only good thing I saw in Trump when he was elected.

The mega tarrifs he has proposed are ridiculous but there are some cases where tarrifs make sense. They could also be a leveraging to for other trade deals.




Do know what's more ridiculous?  The US trade deficit, where is your outrage over it?




You can be outraged for me.

I guess you see the deficit as a catastrophe.

I see it as an imbalance that could use some correction.

I'm typing this on a phone made in China, designed in the United States, made of globally sourced materials, delivered through a foreign and domestic logistics system. It operates over the worldwide web and does things that twenty years ago I wouldn't have imagined would ever be anything beyond science fiction.

I'm not angry that someone in China is getting some of my money so that they can approach first world living standards.

I think tarrifs should be used in cases where there is dumping or other unfair practices going on.

I think if the goal is to have world where every country is saying 'Fuck You' to every other country we'll just be in a world where everyone is fucked.


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: nooneman] * 2
    #25041185 - 03/05/18 05:48 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

You know that they know all of that right? Do you really think the government would lack the foresight to check what happened in 2002, but some random guy on the internet does? In fact they know more than we do. They have privè knowledge, we coulnt even dream of





Yes parts of the government absolutely lack foresight, history has proven this time and time again :lol: They know obviously, they either don't care or are hoping for similar results.

If hundreds of thousands of people lose jobs it doesn't impact these rich assholes. If anything they are counting on it, then when the recession hits they will take advantage of it.

History has proven they will put profits over the environment or our countries best interests if it suits them.

Quote:

I support them because I think it'll be incredibly good for the US strategically. It'll slow the growth of our rivals while fueling our growth, potentially shifting the balance of power more in our favor. It puts our rivals at a disadvantage while putting us at an advantage.




Care to explain how exactly? Because it sounds like literally the opposite to me. Granted I am not expert, but I doubt anyone here is :shrug:


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: musiclover420]
    #25041219 - 03/05/18 06:05 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

musiclover420 said:
Quote:

You know that they know all of that right? Do you really think the government would lack the foresight to check what happened in 2002, but some random guy on the internet does? In fact they know more than we do. They have privè knowledge, we coulnt even dream of





Yes parts of the government absolutely lack foresight, history has proven this time and time again :lol: They know obviously, they either don't care or are hoping for similar results.

If hundreds of thousands of people lose jobs it doesn't impact these rich assholes. If anything they are counting on it, then when the recession hits they will take advantage of it.

History has proven they will put profits over the environment or our countries best interests if it suits them.

Quote:

I support them because I think it'll be incredibly good for the US strategically. It'll slow the growth of our rivals while fueling our growth, potentially shifting the balance of power more in our favor. It puts our rivals at a disadvantage while putting us at an advantage.




Care to explain how exactly? Because it sounds like literally the opposite to me. Granted I am not expert, but I doubt anyone here is :shrug:



Im sure when trump holds his meetings, people in the those meetings, bring up the same points you brought up. And im sure they have valid counterpoints as to why it will work or what the benefits this time around would be


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: MagicMush123]
    #25041234 - 03/05/18 06:12 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Im sure when trump holds his meetings, people in the those meetings, bring up the same points you brought up. And im sure they have valid counterpoints as to why it will work or what the benefits this time around would be




Yes, at least a few people warned Trump the tariffs are a bad idea, he ignored them...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/ryan-splits-with-trump-as-gop-lawmakers-move-to-block-planned-tariffs/2018/03/05/cbb5c786-2094-11e8-94da-ebf9d112159c_story.html?utm_term=.9b2faad72a83

Quote:

Republican congressional leaders stepped up their efforts Monday to stop President Trump from implementing global tariffs on steel and aluminum imports, warning that the protectionist move would damage the economy and muddle the party’s message in the run-up to November’s midterm elections.

For much of the day, an extraordinary public debate over core economic principles played out between the president and leading members of his own party.

“We are extremely worried about the consequences of a trade war and are urging the White House to not advance with this plan,” said AshLee Strong, a spokeswoman for House Speaker Paul D. Ryan (R-Wis.).




Quote:

The Republican lawmakers went public after several days of Trump airing his protectionist views. In an early morning tweetstorm and subsequent Oval Office remarks Monday, the president doubled down on his trade offensive, telling reporters: “No, we’re not backing down.”

At the White House, senior aides like Gary Cohn, director of the National Economic Council, sought to convince the president to reconsider even as colleagues labored over the legal work needed to implement the import taxes, senior administration officials said.




Then there's shady stuff like this:

Ex-Trump adviser sold $31m in shares days before president announced steel tariffs


--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



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InvisibleMagicMush123
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: musiclover420]
    #25041311 - 03/05/18 06:45 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

I dont know why they do anything they do, i was just pointing out that they already know all the pros and cons that we know. Guys on the internet aren't finding any new information that they dont already know about. The media is biased towards trump. Maybe there are some pros being omitted from the media's version of the story, i have no idea


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: ballsalsa]
    #25041371 - 03/05/18 07:16 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I think balls had a good idea earlier.  Only impose tariffs on countries that don't have or enforce production and labor laws and who pay shit wages to their workers.




I would go further than that.  If I had my druthers, any non-compliant country would be barred from doing business in the U.S. at all.  Do an end run around the tariff issue.




The WTO stands against everything you hope for.


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: relic] * 1
    #25041374 - 03/05/18 07:17 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

relic said:
i had a "trade war" with one of my competition in our local, home market area.  i also had a mutual "no compete" gentleman's agreement with another one of my competition in our home market area.

one of those gave me fucking heartburn, made me lose sleep, pissed off a few customers, pissed off at least one manufacturer, and generally sucked.  it also cost me money on a regular basis until we finally choked that other company into submission.

the other one made it possible for me to better and more quickly serve my customers and made us more profitable while also providing me with a lot of knowledge that would have been hard to come by otherwise.

it's pretty obvious which is which, right?  of course my situations had very, very little in common with international trade wars, but it seems that the bellicose type ends up giving our nation heartburn more often than it enriches us.




In fact i think it quite closely mirrors the world market as a whole.

Those willing to collude and price fix will survive whilst convincing themselves that their very survival is better for consumers and after a narrowing laud the value in a competetive free market.

I hope you dont take offense to this...its the way of the world.


--------------------
Just a fool on the hill.


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Offlinemusiclover420
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: MagicMush123]
    #25041435 - 03/05/18 07:38 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
I dont know why they do anything they do, i was just pointing out that they already know all the pros and cons that we know. Guys on the internet aren't finding any new information that they dont already know about




Except that many care about the pro's for themselves and their business investors over the cons for the entire middle/lower classes.

Some of these people are also really stupid and short sited it seems, here's a funny recent example:

Manafort Left an Incriminating Paper Trail Because He Couldn’t Figure Out How to Convert PDFs to Word Files

Quote:

on or about October 21, 2016, Manafort emailed Gates a .pdf version of the real 2016 DMI P&L, which showed a loss of more than $600,000. Gates converted that .pdf into a “Word” document so that it could be edited, which Gates sent back to Manafort. Manafort altered that “Word” document by adding more than $3.5 million in income. He then sent this falsified P&L to Gates and asked that the “Word” document be converted back to a .pdf, which Gates did and returned to Manafort. Manafort then sent the falsified 2016 DMI P&L .pdf to Lender D.




Really shows how dumb some of these guys are. They think they can get away with anything so they don't even bother trying to be smart about their crimes.

Quote:

The media is biased towards trump. Maybe there are some pros being omitted from the media's version of the story, i have no idea




Some of the media is, just like some is biased in favor of Trump and willing to lie to make him look better. Even many conservatives are saying this is a bad idea though.

There's actually a lot of news outlets that have been too easy on Trump IMO just for the sake of appearing neutral.


--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: pineninja]
    #25041442 - 03/05/18 07:41 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Trump has stirred the anthill once again sending people in all directions yelling furiously. He hasn't imposed anything, he proposed something. I wish he had thought it through more carefully but he just came out with it. I think there will be closed door meetings and they will come up with a better list of products to put tariffs on and a lower percentage. Other countries will be so relieved they will hardly complain.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Stonehenge] * 4
    #25041450 - 03/05/18 07:44 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

The village drunk has more discretion than he has.
He's the leader of the "free world" stop making excuses for him.

"I wish he had thought it through more carefully but he just came out with it."
Largest nuke arsenal on earth.


--------------------
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Offlinekent101
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Stonehenge] * 1
    #25041476 - 03/05/18 07:56 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

It already sounds like the USA won't win a trade war. Trump's tariffs have already cost a lot of jobs in the solar panel sector. If these steel and aluminum tariffs go through the cost of a car will go way up. I wouldn't be surprised if it cost another $3000-$5000 for a new car after these tariffs pass. The USA really doesn't have the manufacturing capability to compete on a global scale anymore because we're a consumer economy. That's why it's so hard to find a good job. Most good jobs don't need you to have a bachelor's degree, but will require it just to keep the applications down. Those without the degree normally end up in low skilled jobs or skilled job that will tear their body apart in 15 years for the rest of their lives.


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: mycosis]
    #25041687 - 03/05/18 09:43 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

mycosis said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I think balls had a good idea earlier.  Only impose tariffs on countries that don't have or enforce production and labor laws and who pay shit wages to their workers.




I would go further than that.  If I had my druthers, any non-compliant country would be barred from doing business in the U.S. at all.  Do an end run around the tariff issue.




The WTO stands against everything you hope for.




Yup.


--------------------


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: pineninja] * 1
    #25041833 - 03/05/18 11:16 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

pineninja said:
The village drunk has more discretion than he has.
He's the leader of the "free world" stop making excuses for him.

"I wish he had thought it through more carefully but he just came out with it."
Largest nuke arsenal on earth.



And? It means he'll use it? Maybe im forgetting, but he CANT actually use them himself, even if he wanted too. Dont fall for trump hysteria


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InvisibleMagicMush123
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: musiclover420] * 1
    #25041836 - 03/05/18 11:17 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

musiclover420 said:
Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
I dont know why they do anything they do, i was just pointing out that they already know all the pros and cons that we know. Guys on the internet aren't finding any new information that they dont already know about




Except that many care about the pro's for themselves and their business investors over the cons for the entire middle/lower classes.

Some of these people are also really stupid and short sited it seems, here's a funny recent example:

Manafort Left an Incriminating Paper Trail Because He Couldn’t Figure Out How to Convert PDFs to Word Files

Quote:

on or about October 21, 2016, Manafort emailed Gates a .pdf version of the real 2016 DMI P&L, which showed a loss of more than $600,000. Gates converted that .pdf into a “Word” document so that it could be edited, which Gates sent back to Manafort. Manafort altered that “Word” document by adding more than $3.5 million in income. He then sent this falsified P&L to Gates and asked that the “Word” document be converted back to a .pdf, which Gates did and returned to Manafort. Manafort then sent the falsified 2016 DMI P&L .pdf to Lender D.




Really shows how dumb some of these guys are. They think they can get away with anything so they don't even bother trying to be smart about their crimes.

Quote:

The media is biased towards trump. Maybe there are some pros being omitted from the media's version of the story, i have no idea




Some of the media is, just like some is biased in favor of Trump and willing to lie to make him look better. Even many conservatives are saying this is a bad idea though.

There's actually a lot of news outlets that have been too easy on Trump IMO just for the sake of appearing neutral.



Lol thats actually comically funny


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: MagicMush123]
    #25042043 - 03/06/18 02:58 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Trump’s proposed tariffs will lead to ‘deep recession’, say World Trade Organisation

Quote:

The director-general of the World Trade Organisation (WTO) is urging President Donald Trump not impose steep tariffs on aluminium and steel exports, saying that doing so could lead the world into a "deep recession".

"An eye for an eye will leave us all blind, and the world in deep recession," Director-General Roberto Azevedo told members of his organisation Monday. We "must make every effort to avoid the fall of the first dominoes."

The warning follows less than a week after Mr Trump shocked global markets by saying he wants to impose a 10 per cent tax on aluminium exports, and a 25 per cent tariff on steel imports. That announcement was met with swift threats from the international community, including key allies like the European Union and Canada, which pledged to retaliate if the American president makes good on his plan.




--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: MagicMush123]
    #25042272 - 03/06/18 07:19 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

>he CANT actually use them himself, even if he wanted too

Trump has the nuke codes and can declare a state of emergency any time he wants. He can then order missiles sent and his order will be obeyed

I'm waiting for the closed door meeting to finish and for them to come forward with a revised list of tariffs.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflinePsilynut2
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Stonehenge]
    #25042303 - 03/06/18 07:44 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

my opinion, CNN, Fox or any other MSM news outlet does NOT make a good attempt doing it, it's about ratings, not being intellectually honest.

"what you said not be bullshit"

So according to your logic, the very same Congress that passed the corporate tax cuts to benefit the wealthy are now looking out for the peasants to stop Trump's economic tariffs.  :flowstone:




  No I didn’t say anything about Congress , we are talking about the media , and presenting both sides of the arguments .
It’s not the the news media’s job to explain Trumps idea for him ,  it’s trump surrogates they allow on who are supposed to be doing that . 
  It’s almost like your saying people who support trump the most don’t know what the fuck they are talking about . I would agree with you there .

I didn’t like the tax cuts either , they should have raised taxes to pay for the wars in the Middle East they wanted so bad back in the day .


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Psilynut2]
    #25042416 - 03/06/18 09:00 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Steel tarifs, yes. The US has plenty of iron still in the ground.

Aluminum no, Quebec has the cheapest electricity in north America and aluminum requires ashit ton of electricity to make. Then again, I'm just rooting for Canada cause I live there... We sell you guys 40% of all your aluminum.


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OfflineThundermuscle75
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Patlal]
    #25042427 - 03/06/18 09:05 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Steel tarifs, yes. The US has plenty of iron still in the ground.

Aluminum no, Quebec has the cheapest electricity in north America and aluminum requires ashit ton of electricity to make. Then again, I'm just rooting for Canada cause I live there... We sell you guys 40% of all your aluminum.




How dare you make money selling us something that we need.:n00bslayer:


--------------------


"Rape ... Is a... can of apples" -Fiery


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Thundermuscle75]
    #25042437 - 03/06/18 09:10 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Thundermuscle75 said:
Quote:

Patlal said:
Steel tarifs, yes. The US has plenty of iron still in the ground.

Aluminum no, Quebec has the cheapest electricity in north America and aluminum requires ashit ton of electricity to make. Then again, I'm just rooting for Canada cause I live there... We sell you guys 40% of all your aluminum.




How dare you make money selling us something that we need.:n00bslayer:




Nobody really needs aluminum. Its just convenient.


--------------------


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Invisiblerelic
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: pineninja] * 1
    #25042733 - 03/06/18 11:07 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

pineninja said:
Quote:

relic said:
i had a "trade war" with one of my competition in our local, home market area.  i also had a mutual "no compete" gentleman's agreement with another one of my competition in our home market area.

one of those gave me fucking heartburn, made me lose sleep, pissed off a few customers, pissed off at least one manufacturer, and generally sucked.  it also cost me money on a regular basis until we finally choked that other company into submission.

the other one made it possible for me to better and more quickly serve my customers and made us more profitable while also providing me with a lot of knowledge that would have been hard to come by otherwise.

it's pretty obvious which is which, right?  of course my situations had very, very little in common with international trade wars, but it seems that the bellicose type ends up giving our nation heartburn more often than it enriches us.




In fact i think it quite closely mirrors the world market as a whole.

Those willing to collude and price fix will survive whilst convincing themselves that their very survival is better for consumers and after a narrowing laud the value in a competetive free market.

I hope you dont take offense to this...its the way of the world.




i never take offense to things written on the internet by someone living half way around the world, no matter how cool of a pizza oven said person has built.

while not taking offense, i realized how poorly i did communicating what i was trying to convey.  additionally, i bet you would find it difficult (read: impossible) to find me lauding the value in a competitive free market as i've not made any comments for or against.

what we did was less price fixing than cooperating (sure, colluding, if you'd like) in such a fashion as to drive a rip-off artist out of our market.  i'd do it again in a heartbeat and know--no convincing of myself necessary--that our survival has been better for consumers and will continue to benefit them in the future. 

when companies like precision door service are ripping off consumers the ends justify the means.  it was a franchise of PDS that we choked out and i'm proud of that fact.

in any event, i don't agree that it takes collusion and price fixing to survive and/or prosper.  in my example it was done by me and one other company for a very specific reason, but i don't think either practice is necessary (and i realize you didn't say exactly that, either)

:cheers:  ya cunt.


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: relic]
    #25043132 - 03/06/18 01:59 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

I worked for a scam water heater company for a short time.  It was awful.  We had a checklist menu and had to try to talk the customer into authorizing 30 line items that are being presented as code requirements.  And it would add up to hellacious prices.  3k+ to replace a 50 gal heater was not uncommon.  I didn't last very long there.  They were dispatched from another state, and the people had no clue what L.A. traffic looks like.  One day I started in Whittier, second call in Thousand Oaks, and my last stop in Torrance.  The truck yard was near Compton and I lived in Woodland Hills.  Anyone around here will tell you that is an insane drive for a day's work.  I couldn't have stayed there, even if I enjoyed swindling people.

Speaking of doors, I ordered a bunch of interior doors for my mom, and it turns out that every door in her new house is framed to 6' 4.5".  Now I get to reframe every door.


--------------------


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: ballsalsa]
    #25043345 - 03/06/18 03:46 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)



--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: musiclover420]
    #25043427 - 03/06/18 04:14 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

It shows investors think the tariffs are a good idea


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Stonehenge] * 3
    #25043488 - 03/06/18 04:39 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

:facepalm:

I'm amazed you have managed to live as long as you have considering how divorced from reality you are


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: koods] * 1
    #25043497 - 03/06/18 04:44 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
:facepalm:

I'm amazed you have managed to live as long as you have considering how divorced from reality you are




I was going to ask him to explain, but then I realized it was most likely futile.


--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: musiclover420]
    #25044023 - 03/06/18 09:03 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Hours before Gary Cohn resigned, Trump confronted him and demanded he support his massive new tariffs

Quote:

President Donald Trump demanded that Gary Cohn publicly stand by new tariffs just hours before the president's top economic adviser announced his resignation, according to a new report.

Bloomberg's Jennifer Jacobs reported that Trump asked Cohn — who was vocal in his distaste for the new trade measures — if he was on the "same team" when it came to the new tariffs on steel and aluminum during a meeting at the White House on Tuesday.

Cohn did not reply, according to the report.

The former Goldman Sachs executive pushed Trump to reconsider the tariffs over the past few days, even setting up a meeting with executives from industries that would be hurt by them.

Despite the push, Trump has remained steadfast in his desire to implement the tariffs and even suggested that a trade war could be beneficial to the US.

On the other hand, Cohn — along with many economists — believe the broad-based tariffs of 25% on steel and 10% on aluminum would increase costs for many companies, raise prices for consumers, and eventually lead to job losses for the US economy.




--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: musiclover420]
    #25044475 - 03/07/18 03:40 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

There seems to be little congressional support for the tarrifs. Is this required or can he push them through with executive action?


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Brian Jones]
    #25044505 - 03/07/18 04:09 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

He's using a national security law to impose tariffs without requiring congressional approval.

Congress could pass legislation invalidating the tariffs, which might get a veto proof majority.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: musiclover420] * 1
    #25044744 - 03/07/18 08:20 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Here we go again. Another day another anonymous fake news article. Don't you guys ever get tired of nothing burgers?

They are working out the details. Trump is playing the role of bad cop, ryan and the others are playing good cop. When they work out a compromise, the good cops will reluctantly sign off on it and the rest of the world is glad its not so harsh. Meanwhile, it will be what trump wanted all along. You never ask for the minimum you need cause they will chop it down. You ask for way more and give ground. Art of the deal, watch and see.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Stonehenge] * 3
    #25045516 - 03/07/18 10:35 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

You don't negotiate this kind of thing in public. This is insane negotiating tactics, if that's what you think it is... Which it isn't.  Gary Cohn would not have quit if he thought this was negotiation.

What's sad is you think he's playing 3D chess, when he's simply a bonafide idiot who has no idea what he's doing


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: ballsalsa]
    #25045793 - 03/07/18 12:22 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
I worked for a scam water heater company for a short time.  It was awful.  We had a checklist menu and had to try to talk the customer into authorizing 30 line items that are being presented as code requirements.  And it would add up to hellacious prices.  3k+ to replace a 50 gal heater was not uncommon.  I didn't last very long there.  They were dispatched from another state, and the people had no clue what L.A. traffic looks like.  One day I started in Whittier, second call in Thousand Oaks, and my last stop in Torrance.  The truck yard was near Compton and I lived in Woodland Hills.  Anyone around here will tell you that is an insane drive for a day's work.  I couldn't have stayed there, even if I enjoyed swindling people.




i just couldn't do it and from what i know of you, even considering your propensity for guile (see:  desire to be politician, local), it's no wonder you couldn't for long, either.

the straw that broke my back with the local PDS franchise was one day when i did a service call in a local retirement community for a multi-time repeat customer.  i was in the middle of a routine maintenance service call and the little old lady resident came out, asking if i could take a look at her neighbor's door system because "she just had someone else work on it and i don't think they were honest with her".  that turned out to be a massive understatement.  she said the neighbor's door was open and i could just go in and take a look.

i went next door and saw that her door opener's chain was extremely loose, like to the point of almost falling off the sprocket loose, so i got my step ladder and the two half inch wrenches necessary to tighten it.  as i was adjusting the chain tension, the resident came out into the garage and she was older than dirt; she had to be at least 85 y.o..  she asked if i wanted to see her receipt for the work done by the other company and then sheepishly asked me what my service was going to cost "because i'm on a fixed income and i can't afford much after the work done yesterday".  i told her not to worry about money right now and that i'd love to see her receipt so she went to get it.

she came back and handed me her receipt...but it was still attached to the carbon copies of his whole book full of receipts!  the dummy from PDS accidentally left his whole book full of filled-out invoices, detailing how he scammed about 75 other people! (it was one of those generic job invoice books you can buy at office depot or similar office supply store).

on her invoice was something to the effect of "adjusted the chain tension but the opener is so worn out it won't hold the chain tension anymore so it needs to be replaced", as well as some other nonsense.  he charged her over $450 for loosening the two 5/16" nuts on the chain adjustment bolt and leave them loose so that he could run the unit one time, show her how the chain 'loosened all on its own', and lie to her about her door opener being so worn out that it needed to be replaced for about $900.

the $450 service call he charged her was more than we would charge to replace an entire door opener.  for the $900 he quoted to replace her opener, we could replace her entire garage door with a premium, 3-layer insulated door with a lifetime part warranty.  he was fleecing these retirees that live on fixed incomes with little to spare each month after buying necessities, much less garage door and opener repairs.

that was the last straw and i vowed to myself to ruin them any way i could.  it took about four years of effort between me and another company and a worsening economy to make those crooked fuckholes disappear.


Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Speaking of doors, I ordered a bunch of interior doors for my mom, and it turns out that every door in her new house is framed to 6' 4.5".  Now I get to reframe every door.




i hate shit like that.  i had to cut down five 12x12 garage doors, six sections in each door, from 12'-2" wide to 12'-0" wide because the masonry crew laid out the openings too narrow on a commercial job we did last summer.  of course there was nobody holding their hand up wanting to pay for the extra labor.


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: koods] * 1
    #25045952 - 03/07/18 01:37 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
You don't negotiate this kind of thing in public. This is insane negotiating tactics, if that's what you think it is... Which it isn't.  Gary Cohn would not have quit if he thought this was negotiation.

What's sad is you think he's playing 3D chess, when he's simply a bonafide idiot who has no idea what he's doing




The white house just announced that Canada, Mexico and some other countries will be exempt.


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Patlal] * 3
    #25045957 - 03/07/18 01:39 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

One day into the trade war and we're already making concessions.

President Deals, baby!


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #25045965 - 03/07/18 01:43 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

By now you guys should understand how Trump works. He starts off by saying the most one sided thing he can say, then the opposition respond to their most one sided thing, then eventually, Trump goes for the middle ground.

Up to now, with North Korea, it seems to be working. He trhreatned the worse and suddenly North Korea has been talking to South Korea. Kimmy even said he stop his nuclear program if he's certain the country will no longer be attacked.


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Patlal]
    #25045972 - 03/07/18 01:49 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

By now you guys should understand how Trump works. He starts off by saying the most one sided thing he can say, then the opposition respond to their most one sided thing, then eventually, Trump goes for the middle ground.






Its amazing how Trump literally invented negotiating.


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #25046028 - 03/07/18 02:09 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

By now you guys should understand how Trump works. He starts off by saying the most one sided thing he can say, then the opposition respond to their most one sided thing, then eventually, Trump goes for the middle ground.






Its amazing how Trump literally invented negotiating.




I believe that was Kimmy's father that invented it. Just like hamburgers and weather control.


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Patlal]
    #25046085 - 03/07/18 02:27 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

This is what I've been saying all along. He is playing the opposition like a violin. He got everyone upset when he never intended to do all that anyway. Now people are breathing a sigh of relief and watching to see what comes next. The next set of tariffs will be more selective

I said a few days ago we would go easy on canada.


--------------------
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Stonehenge] * 3
    #25046097 - 03/07/18 02:32 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Then why wasnt that built in to the intitial tariffs?


Spoiler: because Trump had no idea this would cause significant damage to an ally's economy, and his diplomatic team had to bring it to his attention, and changes were made.




Trump is an idiot. Its embarassing to watch yall continue to defend him.


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: The Ecstatic] * 3
    #25046107 - 03/07/18 02:34 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Trump claimed he was doing this to go after Chinese steel, but China isnt even in the top 10 of steel exporters to the US. Canada is #1.

The man is a fucking moron. Just yesterday he told the press pool he spoke to Kim Jong Un earlier, when really he was speaking to the President of SOUTH Korea. I mean jesus christ.


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Patlal]
    #25046631 - 03/07/18 04:25 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Here we go again. Another day another anonymous fake news article. Don't you guys ever get tired of nothing burgers?

They are working out the details. Trump is playing the role of bad cop, ryan and the others are playing good cop. When they work out a compromise, the good cops will reluctantly sign off on it and the rest of the world is glad its not so harsh. Meanwhile, it will be what trump wanted all along. You never ask for the minimum you need cause they will chop it down. You ask for way more and give ground. Art of the deal, watch and see.




Is this more "fake news"?

Bill Gates Believes Another Recession Is A ‘Certainty’

http://fortune.com/2018/02/28/bill-gates-believes-another-recession-is-a-certainty/

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/06/bill-gates-it-is-a-certainty-we-will-have-another-financial-crisis.html

Quote:

The 2008 financial crisis led to the Great Recession and millions of jobs lost. It took years for America to recover and many citizens still feel the ripple effects. According to Microsoft co-founder Bill Gates, though, we should be braced for another one.




Quote:

Patlal said:
By now you guys should understand how Trump works. He starts off by saying the most one sided thing he can say, then the opposition respond to their most one sided thing, then eventually, Trump goes for the middle ground.

Up to now, with North Korea, it seems to be working. He trhreatned the worse and suddenly North Korea has been talking to South Korea. Kimmy even said he stop his nuclear program if he's certain the country will no longer be attacked.




Except that it wasn't suddenly, and probably would have happened regardless of Trump :lol:

https://www.ploughshares.org/issues-analysis/article/factsheet-history-us-negotiations-north-korea-1992-present

Quote:

In April 1994, former President Jimmy Carter visited North Korean leader Kim Il Sung to broker dialogue between the two countries. Carter’s efforts paved the way for sustained talks that, despite Kim Il Sung’s untimely death, culminated with the Agreed Framework in October 1994.

For the next eight years, the agreement successfully froze North Korea’s plutonium production, during which time the North could have produced enough plutonium for more than 100 nuclear warheads.




Quote:

In 1998, North Korea made progress in its missile program that raised new concerns for the United States and countries in the region. After North Korea’s launch of a long-range ballistic missile over Japan, the Clinton Administration tasked a small team of inside and outside government experts with a North Korea Policy Review that would ultimately address the goals outlined in the Agreed Framework.

Former Secretary of Defense William Perry collaborated with the governments of North Korea, South Korea, China, and Japan in what would become known as the “Perry Process.” Several rounds of negotiations culminated in 1999 with a report that presented recommendations for the United States to pursue a verifiable suspension and eventual dismantlement of the North’s nuclear and long-range missile activities. In turn, the policy review team found that the United States must take steps to address the North’s security concerns and establish normal relations.




These negotiations have been ongoing for over a decade... I've yet to see how Trump has helped the situation whatsoever :shrug:


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I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



Edited by musiclover420 (03/07/18 04:26 PM)


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: musiclover420] * 1
    #25046668 - 03/07/18 04:36 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

More "fake news" :wink:

107 House Republicans send letter to Trump asking him not to do his tariff plan

Quote:

More than one hundred Republican members of Congress on Wednesday signed a letter "urging" President Donald Trump to trim down his proposed tariffs on steel and aluminum.

"We urge you to reconsider the idea of broad tariffs to avoid unintended negative consequences to the U.S. economy and its workers," the GOP lawmakers said in the letter.




--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: musiclover420]
    #25046762 - 03/07/18 05:04 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

>Is this more "fake news"?

Its not even news, its just one person's opinion. We have been headed into an economic crisis for years now if not decades due to bad fiscal policy. Is the 20T deficit trumps fault?

Trump is playing the media for fools and the world too. His good cop bad cop routine has worked time after time but you of course say maybe it would have happened anyway. Good thing you are fair and open minded. When and if he fixes things are you going to try to give the credit to obama? If the economy keeps getting worse then of course its all trumps fault


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Patlal]
    #25046781 - 03/07/18 05:11 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
By now you guys should understand how Trump works. He starts off by saying the most one sided thing he can say, then the opposition respond to their most one sided thing, then eventually, Trump goes for the middle ground.

Up to now, with North Korea, it seems to be working. He trhreatned the worse and suddenly North Korea has been talking to South Korea. Kimmy even said he stop his nuclear program if he's certain the country will no longer be attacked.




North Korea does this every decade or so


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Stonehenge] * 1
    #25046783 - 03/07/18 05:14 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
>Is this more "fake news"?

Its not even news, its just one person's opinion. We have been headed into an economic crisis for years now if not decades due to bad fiscal policy. Is the 20T deficit trumps fault?

Trump is playing the media for fools and the world too. His good cop bad cop routine has worked time after time but you of course say maybe it would have happened anyway. Good thing you are fair and open minded.




:lolsy:

Care to provide some examples? You call everything fake news yet I never see you back up your claims with sources :shrug: Makes it hard to take you seriously...

Trump literally paid 130,000$ to a pornstar to cover up an affair, and managed to fuck it up so now she can release the story anyways. It's more like "stupid cop/dumb cop" :wink:

Quote:

When and if he fixes things are you going to try to give the credit to obama? If the economy keeps getting worse then of course its all trumps fault




Assuming he does fix anything I would absolutely give him credit where it is due. So far he has tried to take credit for all sorts of crap he had 0 impact on, while simultaneously blaming everyone else for his own problems...

He is a textbook narcissist through and through, I'd bet "a small loan of a million dollars" that Trump only cares about himself and his money.


--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

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I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: musiclover420]
    #25048346 - 03/08/18 11:30 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

>You call everything fake news yet I never see you back up your claims with sources

You have it backward, my friend. The "news" I call fake is the stories by anon sources. Then you say but they mentioned several people who believed it. Sorry but its still an anon fake news article

The one I said was not even news, I said that because all it was is the opinion of one person. Do you see the difference between opinion and news? Or between opinion and fact? It is not a fact that that the economy will crash, its a prediction.

The letter sent to trump may be a fact but so what? They are jumping into the role of good cop. Trump then gives a little and the bystanders watching the drama are taken in by the theater performance.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Stonehenge] * 1
    #25048997 - 03/08/18 12:55 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

you do realize that anonymous sources are simply people who don't want their names used, right? The reporters know who they are. You can't just anonymously talk to journalists. They won't take you seriously unless they know who you are.


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: koods]
    #25049104 - 03/08/18 01:51 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Well its official.  Tariffs are officially imposed. Maga


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: koods] * 1
    #25049152 - 03/08/18 02:11 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
you do realize that anonymous sources are simply people who don't want their names used, right? The reporters know who they are. You can't just anonymously talk to journalists. They won't take you seriously unless they know who you are.




It's funny too as you can list tons of sources and just skew data/quotes in your favor anyways (cough cough fox cough) Or just blatantly lie (cough cough Hannity cough)

But it seems like "fake news" usually refers to news people don't want to be real.

Quote:

Fake news is a type of yellow journalism or propaganda that consists of deliberate misinformation or hoaxes spread via traditional print and broadcast news media or online social media.[




That is what "fake news" was originally. What we are seeing currently with the overuse of the term is a clear attempt at making the term seem less serious.

The GOP has done the same thing with tons of other terms, anytime they become guilty of something they overuse the term until it loses meaning with a good chunk of people...

Not sure what the term is for that technique but they are pro's. Trump did it himself with treason and some other words, like when he said not clapping for him is treason...

:strokebeard:


--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: musiclover420]
    #25049931 - 03/08/18 04:41 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

I have to agree with the president for once... From a national security standpoint it makes complete sense that we do what we can to resurrect the steel and aluminum manufacturing industries. I'm not sure going about it by imposing "select tarrifs" was a wise move though.

We don't add many new jobs in the big picture and risk losing out in a larger number of export sectors...

We'll have to wait and see because he signed the order today... We may have been better off subsidizing both sectors.


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Nikon Addict]
    #25049943 - 03/08/18 04:44 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Nikon Addict said:
I have to agree with the president for once... From a national security standpoint it makes complete sense that we do what we can to resurrect the steel and aluminum manufacturing industries. I'm not sure going about it by imposing "select tarrifs" was a wise move though.

We don't add many new jobs in the big picture and risk losing out in a larger number of export sectors...

We'll have to wait and see because he signed the order today... We may have been better off subsidizing both sectors.




Did you hear about the guy in Trump's administration who sold off around a million shares related to the steel industry a few days before Trump announced the tariffs?

http://www.startribune.com/ex-trump-adviser-sells-before-steel-tariff-news-hits-stock/475740773/

Quote:

Billionaire investor Carl Icahn sold nearly 1 million shares of stock in a company tied to the steel industry leading up to President Donald Trump's decision to impose costly tariffs on steel and aluminum imported into the U.S.

Icahn also has ties to Trump; he was an unpaid adviser to the president before resigning last August.

A recent regulatory filing disclosed Icahn sold $31.3 million worth of stock in northeastern Wisconsin-based crane manufacturer Manitowoc Co. last month. Manitowoc could be hurt by Trump's tariffs, a threat that caused the company's shares to drop by 9 percent to $26.93 since the president's announcement.




Would that be considered insider trading?

:strokebeard:


--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Nikon Addict] * 1
    #25050053 - 03/08/18 05:24 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

No, that would be "executive privilege". Trump is involved.


Quote:

Nikon Addict said:
I have to agree with the president for once... From a national security standpoint it makes complete sense that we do what we can to resurrect the steel and aluminum manufacturing industries. I'm not sure going about it by imposing "select tarrifs" was a wise move though.

We don't add many new jobs in the big picture and risk losing out in a larger number of export sectors...

We'll have to wait and see because he signed the order today... We may have been better off subsidizing both sectors.




Why does this make sense from a national security standpoint? Canada supplies most of our steel and aluminum. Last time we went to war with them, we were British and they were French.


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Kryptos]
    #25050261 - 03/08/18 06:46 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Anyone post this yet?

Trump tariffs: US President imposes levy on steel and aluminium

Quote:

President Trump has signed controversial orders imposing heavy tariffs on steel and aluminium - but some countries will be spared.

Mr Trump has said the US is suffering from "unfair trade" and that the move would boost US industry.

But countries have expressed outrage at his plans, and experts have warned of new trade wars.

The tariffs will go into effect in 15 days and include exemptions for Canada and Mexico.

Tariffs of 25% are to be placed on steel and 10% on aluminium imported into the US.

The tariffs are opposed by many in the president's own party and by the US's major trading partners.

Republican Senator Jeff Flake - a prominent critic of Mr Trump who opposes the move - said he was drafting legislation to nullify the tariffs, saying trade wars are only ever lost.

House Speaker Paul Ryan said he disagreed with the action and feared its unintended consequences.

What are possible repercussions?
Mr Trump's announcement last week about his plan to impose the hefty tariffs sparked alarm and upset markets at home and abroad.

Major trading partners have threatened retaliation and the plans are opposed by many in his own party.

The president's top economic adviser Gary Cohn, a supporter of free trade, resigned on Tuesday. More than 100 Republicans have signed a letter addressed to the president, expressing their "deep concern" about the tariffs

International Monetary Fund chief Christine Lagarde has warned "nobody wins" in a trade war, saying it would harm global economic growth
The EU has proposed retaliatory measures against a number of US goods including bourbon and peanut butter
China has threatened an "appropriate and necessary response" in any trade war with the US. Foreign Minister Wang Yi said China and the US should strive to be partners rather than rivals

Mr Trump has said that the US would "win big" in a trade war.

Other countries are likely to take the US to court, arguing that the decision violates World Trade Organization moves.

The White House says that the national security rationale for the move is "unassailable" and national security considerations are allowed under WTO rules.

The director of UK Steel said the tariffs would have a profound and detrimental impact on the UK steel sector.

"Imposing such measures on US allies in the name of national security is difficult to comprehend," Gareth Stace added.




--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: musiclover420]
    #25050337 - 03/08/18 07:12 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Nothing has happened but as usual you guys are falling for the hype. In 15 days, if nothing is changed then it will go into effect. Before then and after then there is plenty of room for negotiating. We don't want a trade war but our trading partners want it even less. To get the tariffs removed they simply have to follow instructions from trump.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Stonehenge]
    #25050443 - 03/08/18 08:11 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

And now Trump is gonna meet with ole Kimmy and deal with him. Something nobody has done in what 70 years?


--------------------


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Stonehenge]
    #25050478 - 03/08/18 08:29 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Nothing has happened but as usual you guys are falling for the hype. In 15 days, if nothing is changed then it will go into effect. Before then and after then there is plenty of room for negotiating. We don't want a trade war but our trading partners want it even less. To get the tariffs removed they simply have to follow instructions from trump.




Quote:

The president's top economic adviser Gary Cohn, a supporter of free trade, resigned on Tuesday. More than 100 Republicans have signed a letter addressed to the president, expressing their "deep concern" about the tariffs




:wellidunno:


--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



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Invisiblerelic
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Patlal] * 1
    #25051254 - 03/09/18 07:19 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
And now Trump is gonna meet with ole Kimmy and deal with him. Something nobody has done in what 70 years?




70?  wtf?

kim isn't nearly that old, but around eight years ago two (former) presidents met with the regime.


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Patlal] * 2
    #25051819 - 03/09/18 12:09 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

lol
Quote:

Patlal said:
And now Trump is gonna meet with ole Kimmy and deal with him. Something nobody has done in what 70 years?



Wtf are you taking about. This has happened so many times before

This is the first time we'll send a total fucking moron to do the job


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


Edited by koods (03/09/18 12:17 PM)


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: relic] * 1
    #25051839 - 03/09/18 12:18 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

relic said:
Quote:

Patlal said:
And now Trump is gonna meet with ole Kimmy and deal with him. Something nobody has done in what 70 years?




70?  wtf?

kim isn't nearly that old, but around eight years ago two (former) presidents met with the regime.




Trump supporters suck at history


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: koods]
    #25051929 - 03/09/18 01:09 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
lol
Quote:

Patlal said:
And now Trump is gonna meet with ole Kimmy and deal with him. Something nobody has done in what 70 years?



Wtf are you taking about. This has happened so many times before

This is the first time we'll send a total fucking moron to do the job



Trump should hire dennis Rodman as his North Korean advisor


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: MagicMush123]
    #25052185 - 03/09/18 02:53 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

No he's just as mentally unstable


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: koods]
    #25052212 - 03/09/18 02:59 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

The irony that trump is playing the role of Alec Baldwin from team America


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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InvisibleMagicMush123
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: koods]
    #25052267 - 03/09/18 03:22 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
No he's just as mentally unstable



Its been proven he is quite stable


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Stonehenge]
    #25052310 - 03/09/18 03:46 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Stable genius already realized he fucked up and gave NK what they wanted by being willing to meet without requiring they halt their nuclear program.

Now he's backpedaling.

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Nothing has happened but as usual you guys are falling for the hype. In 15 days, if nothing is changed then it will go into effect. Before then and after then there is plenty of room for negotiating. We don't want a trade war but our trading partners want it even less. To get the tariffs removed they simply have to follow instructions from trump.




Or they could just remove the US from world trade agreements. We may be a big economy, but the EU is bigger and China is getting there. It's like how the TPP (or whatever the new one without the US is called now) just got renegotiated. Now US beef pays a 39% tariff in Japan, but EU beef tariffs are dropping to 3% in a decade.

Put short: the US will lose a trade war, badly, if the world decides to move on without us. Which is what seems to be happening.


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: MagicMush123]
    #25052395 - 03/09/18 04:19 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Quote:

koods said:
No he's just as mentally unstable



Its been proven he is quite stable




Are you serious?...

It doesn't take a degree in psychology to see how crazy and or senile he is...

According to him it's also "proven" that he is 6'3" and weighs 240 pounds which seems impossible to me. I am around 6' and probably weigh around 220-250 and am not nearly as "bulky" as he is.

Hopefully in the future we make all our presidents take strict mental health screenings, as well as release their tax returns... It's nice to see some states already making tax returns required just to get on their ballot.


--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: koods]
    #25052434 - 03/09/18 04:34 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
No he's just as mentally unstable



Hi my name is koods and I... like to make shit up!


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25052447 - 03/09/18 04:39 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Oh look, more BS from Trump:

White House: Never Mind the North Korea Meeting, Trump Was Just Babbling

Quote:

Donald Trump snared headlines across the world by announcing yesterday he would meet with North Korea, breaking with years of American policy that held such a meeting could only happen if North Korea made concessions on its nuclear program first. It turns out Trump’s foreign policy masterstroke did not come as the result of a Metternichtian calculation but instead a completely spontaneous outburst.

South Korean official Chung Eui-yong was in the White House yesterday meeting with other officials. Trump decided to see Chung right away; maybe Fox News was in repeats or something. Trump “then asked Mr. Chung to tell him about his meeting with Mr. Kim,” reports the New York Times. “When Mr. Chung said that the North Korean leader had expressed a desire to meet Mr. Trump, the president immediately said he would do it, and directed Mr. Chung to announce it to the White House press corps.”

It sounds from this account that Trump had no real idea that North Korea has always wanted a face-to-face meeting with the U.S. president, and the U.S. has always imposed conditions. That would certainly be the logical interpretation of this account, given that, in the last week, Trump has confused North Korea with the other, extremely different South Korea, and demanded a laughably tiny $1 billion trade concession from China when he was supposed to demand $100 billion. It certainly appears Trump believed, in the moment, that North Korea had not been interested in a meeting until then, so he needed to take the deal before they changed their mind. Whatever. Art of the Deal.

So then the administration rushed out its breakthrough announcement. But now the administration has to slowly back away without quite acknowledging it is doing so. Press Secretary Sarah Sanders told reporters today Trump won’t meet with North Korea unless they offer concrete concessions beforehand:




Funny seeing people try and give Trump credit for this when he had next to nothing to do with these relations and he can't even do his part correctly :lol:


--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #25052454 - 03/09/18 04:42 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Stable genius already realized he fucked up and gave NK what they wanted by being willing to meet without requiring they halt their nuclear program.

Now he's backpedaling.

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Nothing has happened but as usual you guys are falling for the hype. In 15 days, if nothing is changed then it will go into effect. Before then and after then there is plenty of room for negotiating. We don't want a trade war but our trading partners want it even less. To get the tariffs removed they simply have to follow instructions from trump.




Or they could just remove the US from world trade agreements. We may be a big economy, but the EU is bigger and China is getting there. It's like how the TPP (or whatever the new one without the US is called now) just got renegotiated. Now US beef pays a 39% tariff in Japan, but EU beef tariffs are dropping to 3% in a decade.

Put short: the US will lose a trade war, badly, if the world decides to move on without us. Which is what seems to be happening.





If we really wanted to play hard ball (which we don't), we could just stop using our navy to protect international shipping.  Maybe even interdict a few vessels coming or going to countries that want to charge us 39% tariffs.  Close the Suez and Panama canals.

One day, we won't have the clout to do any of that.  That seems to be the plan anyway.  For now, we do.  It's actually funny, because this stuff has all been in the works for at least a hundred and twenty years.  When you read about the end of the Spanish-American War, there was big controversy over whether or not to keep the territories we took from spain(except for cuba).  One of the primary reasons laid out in favor of keeping them was the Phillipines' proximity to China, which had a helluva population even then, and potential as a consumer market.


--------------------


Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #25052469 - 03/09/18 04:46 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

lol I can't believe Trump agreed to this meeting.
Once you read the details he gave NK exactly what they were wanted. NK has been trying to get a meeting with a US president for decades. God fucking damn it trump is an unbelievably gullible sucker. If you voted for this tool you're an idiot


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: koods]
    #25052472 - 03/09/18 04:48 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Hooray, we stopped Trump from negotiating and left North Korea a nuclear power at the same time!  :flowstone:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25052479 - 03/09/18 04:52 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

koods said:
No he's just as mentally unstable



Hi my name is koods and I... like to make shit up!




Lol. You don't need a degree in psychology (which I have) to see that trump is not a normal person. He just let a leader of North Korea get their ultimate goal... a sit down with a US president. He's an idiot.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: koods]
    #25052492 - 03/09/18 04:56 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Lol. You don't need a degree in psychology (which I have) to see that trump is not a normal person. He just let a leader of North Korea get their ultimate goal... a sit down with a US president. He's an idiot.



And how would that harm the US, genius?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25052499 - 03/09/18 04:58 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Hooray, we stopped Trump from negotiating and left North Korea a nuclear power at the same time!  :flowstone:



Do you really believe trump is capable of going face to face with somebody who has been making a fool of him for the past year?


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: ballsalsa]
    #25052520 - 03/09/18 05:05 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

musiclover420 said:
Oh look, more BS from Trump:

White House: Never Mind the North Korea Meeting, Trump Was Just Babbling

Quote:

Donald Trump snared headlines across the world by announcing yesterday he would meet with North Korea, breaking with years of American policy that held such a meeting could only happen if North Korea made concessions on its nuclear program first. It turns out Trump’s foreign policy masterstroke did not come as the result of a Metternichtian calculation but instead a completely spontaneous outburst.

South Korean official Chung Eui-yong was in the White House yesterday meeting with other officials. Trump decided to see Chung right away; maybe Fox News was in repeats or something. Trump “then asked Mr. Chung to tell him about his meeting with Mr. Kim,” reports the New York Times. “When Mr. Chung said that the North Korean leader had expressed a desire to meet Mr. Trump, the president immediately said he would do it, and directed Mr. Chung to announce it to the White House press corps.”

It sounds from this account that Trump had no real idea that North Korea has always wanted a face-to-face meeting with the U.S. president, and the U.S. has always imposed conditions. That would certainly be the logical interpretation of this account, given that, in the last week, Trump has confused North Korea with the other, extremely different South Korea, and demanded a laughably tiny $1 billion trade concession from China when he was supposed to demand $100 billion. It certainly appears Trump believed, in the moment, that North Korea had not been interested in a meeting until then, so he needed to take the deal before they changed their mind. Whatever. Art of the Deal.

So then the administration rushed out its breakthrough announcement. But now the administration has to slowly back away without quite acknowledging it is doing so. Press Secretary Sarah Sanders told reporters today Trump won’t meet with North Korea unless they offer concrete concessions beforehand:




Funny seeing people try and give Trump credit for this when he had next to nothing to do with these relations and he can't even do his part correctly :lol:




I posted that link in two other topics and figured three was too much...someone else still put it here though. High five!

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
Stable genius already realized he fucked up and gave NK what they wanted by being willing to meet without requiring they halt their nuclear program.

Now he's backpedaling.

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Nothing has happened but as usual you guys are falling for the hype. In 15 days, if nothing is changed then it will go into effect. Before then and after then there is plenty of room for negotiating. We don't want a trade war but our trading partners want it even less. To get the tariffs removed they simply have to follow instructions from trump.




Or they could just remove the US from world trade agreements. We may be a big economy, but the EU is bigger and China is getting there. It's like how the TPP (or whatever the new one without the US is called now) just got renegotiated. Now US beef pays a 39% tariff in Japan, but EU beef tariffs are dropping to 3% in a decade.

Put short: the US will lose a trade war, badly, if the world decides to move on without us. Which is what seems to be happening.





If we really wanted to play hard ball (which we don't), we could just stop using our navy to protect international shipping.  Maybe even interdict a few vessels coming or going to countries that want to charge us 39% tariffs.  Close the Suez and Panama canals.

One day, we won't have the clout to do any of that.  That seems to be the plan anyway.  For now, we do.  It's actually funny, because this stuff has all been in the works for at least a hundred and twenty years.  When you read about the end of the Spanish-American War, there was big controversy over whether or not to keep the territories we took from spain(except for cuba).  One of the primary reasons laid out in favor of keeping them was the Phillipines' proximity to China, which had a helluva population even then, and potential as a consumer market.




I don't know how much international shipping the US navy protects. I assume that it's the de-facto protector simply by sheer volume and maritime law obligations, but how much is actively being protected? I'll buy the canals argument. Though, ships are pretty efficient these days, going around adds days, not weeks.

How much can we choose to not protect shipping under maritime law without legally declaring war would also be a quagmire. There *is* a duty to render aid for passing ships on the high seas. Ignoring an SOS when able to provide assistance is very, very, very illegal.

Wasn't our base in the Philippines in the news not that long ago, specifically because China wanted to get rid of it?


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25052528 - 03/09/18 05:09 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

koods said:
Lol. You don't need a degree in psychology (which I have) to see that trump is not a normal person. He just let a leader of North Korea get their ultimate goal... a sit down with a US president. He's an idiot.



And how would that harm the US, genius?




How would having an idiot negotiate on behalf of the us go bad? Idk. He already gave away one of the greatest concessions NK has ever asked for: meeting with a sitting US president. KIm is laughing his ass off.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25052555 - 03/09/18 05:19 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

koods said:
Lol. You don't need a degree in psychology (which I have) to see that trump is not a normal person. He just let a leader of North Korea get their ultimate goal... a sit down with a US president. He's an idiot.



And how would that harm the US, genius?




1: US presidents have in the past demanded for conditions prior to meeting. Trump agreed immediately and is now trying to backtrack so he can set conditions.

2: We have in the past tried to work out a deal with China around this which Trump also fucked up:

Quote:

Trump has confused North Korea with the other, extremely different South Korea, and demanded a laughably tiny $1 billion trade concession from China when he was supposed to demand $100 billion.




Quote:

So then the administration rushed out its breakthrough announcement. But now the administration has to slowly back away without quite acknowledging it is doing so. Press Secretary Sarah Sanders told reporters today Trump won’t meet with North Korea unless they offer concrete concessions beforehand[.]




Well at least they are trying to backtrack...


--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



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Invisiblevinsue
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: koods] * 1
    #25052556 - 03/09/18 05:19 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

I heard Trump is going to let Kim pick which MickeyD's they will hold the meet and eat at.

:kimjongil: . . . :peace:


--------------------

"All mushrooms are edible; but some only once." Croatian proverb. BTW ...
  Have You Rated Ythans Mom Yet ?? ... :taser:  ... HERE'S HOW ... (be nice) .  :mod: ... :peace:


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Offlineqman
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: koods] * 1
    #25052559 - 03/09/18 05:20 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

koods said:
No he's just as mentally unstable



Hi my name is koods and I... like to make shit up!




Lol. You don't need a degree in psychology (which I have) to see that trump is not a normal person. He just let a leader of North Korea get their ultimate goal... a sit down with a US president. He's an idiot.




Trump has a big ego and lies about a lot of things, but that's still "normal" behavior.

His supporters accept his behavior because they can relate to it.

Trump apparently likes to fuck porn stars, that's something people can relate to and that's why nobody really cares about it. :shrug:  He's just one of the guys.


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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: qman] * 1
    #25052575 - 03/09/18 05:24 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Trump has a big ego and lies about a lot of things, but that's still "normal" behavior.

His supporters accept his behavior because they can relate to it.

Trump apparently likes to fuck porn stars, that's something people can relate to and that's why nobody really cares about it. :shrug:  He's just one of the guys.




Super normal:

President Trump allegedly had Stormy Daniels spank him with Forbes magazine cover featuring his face

:uhoh:

Quote:

President Trump once had a porn-star paramour spank him with a Forbes magazine cover featuring his picture, according to bizarre email correspondence unearthed Thursday.




Quote:

The consultant revealed that Clifford had told him that the strange spanking session occurred while they were involved in a sexual relationship that began soon after they met during a golf tournament in July 2006. The magazine that Trump asked Clifford to spank him with had his face on the cover, the consultant added.

A fall 2006 cover of Forbes features a photo of Trump flanked by his daughter, Ivanka, and his son, Donald Jr.




We all like getting spanked by magazines with our faces and our kids faces on the cover right? Totally normal :rofldrunk:


--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Kryptos]
    #25052607 - 03/09/18 05:35 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:

I don't know how much international shipping the US navy protects. I assume that it's the de-facto protector simply by sheer volume and maritime law obligations, but how much is actively being protected? I'll buy the canals argument. Though, ships are pretty efficient these days, going around adds days, not weeks.

How much can we choose to not protect shipping under maritime law without legally declaring war would also be a quagmire. There *is* a duty to render aid for passing ships on the high seas. Ignoring an SOS when able to provide assistance is very, very, very illegal.

Wasn't our base in the Philippines in the news not that long ago, specifically because China wanted to get rid of it?




1) we actively protect all of it from the only people who have the means to really fuck with any significant potion of it...ourselves.  If anybody cries about it, it's on them to declare war.

2) Obviously, it would be...very impolite to do any of the shit I mentioned.  That's what international law is, a gentlemanly agreement.

3) The territory in the philippines wasn't the point, just an example.  Big business interests are international.  They don't cares where the money goes because they can move with it.  My point was that those interests have been angling at prodding China into the position they are in today for a long time.  They don't care if America's star has to fade in order for China's to rise.  Of course, I'm not saying that it necessarily does.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: ballsalsa]
    #25052650 - 03/09/18 05:45 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

1) Good point. So, would the US just become the new super-pirates? (the Somali pirates we hear about now once in a while were originally formed to ward off illegal Japanese fishing in the waters of Somalia)

2) Also a good point. Are we willing to take our chance at escaping Nuremberg?

3) Tariffs seem like they achieve the goal of fading America's star for China. That seems like a side effect of Trump's zero-sum game view on the world though.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Kryptos]
    #25052712 - 03/09/18 06:02 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

I'm not in favor of trump's nonsense tariffs.  If anything, a tariff on poorly made and oftentimes poisonous toys, or one on imported fish products farmed with loads of antibiotics you aren't even allowed to use on a U.S. fish farm.

Edit: Pirates?  Nah, bro.  Privateers.


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Edited by ballsalsa (03/09/18 06:32 PM)


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: ballsalsa]
    #25052737 - 03/09/18 06:10 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

I don't recall where trump said he would meet kim without any preconditions. There are details to work out, place and time, what else is being demanded? Don't forget we have nk over a barrel now. They are literally starving, can't buy weapons, can't sell their goods. If trump says kim has to give a bj, then kim better do it.

But the usual suspects hail any tiny bump in the road because they would rather see usa fail than trump and usa succeed.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: musiclover420]
    #25052746 - 03/09/18 06:13 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

musiclover420 said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

koods said:
trump is not a normal person. He just let a leader of North Korea get their ultimate goal... a sit down with a US president. He's an idiot.



And how would that harm the US, genius?



1: US presidents have in the past demanded for conditions prior to meeting. Trump agreed immediately and is now trying to backtrack so he can set conditions.



I see.  So it's better that North Korea retain its nuclear weapons program.

Genius.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinemusiclover420
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Re: Trump's Tarrifs [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25052753 - 03/09/18 06:18 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

musiclover420 said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

koods said:
trump is not a normal person. He just let a leader of North Korea get their ultimate goal... a sit down with a US president. He's an idiot.



And how would that harm the US, genius?



1: US presidents have in the past demanded for conditions prior to meeting. Trump agreed immediately and is now trying to backtrack so he can set conditions.



I see.  So it's better that North Korea retain its nuclear weapons program.

Genius.




Want some Straw with that Man?

:rofldrunk:


--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



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