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OfflineAuroraBorealis88
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Re: oral salvia [Re: LuSiD9]
    #25047358 - 03/07/18 08:37 PM (6 years, 22 days ago)

I thought you have to chew the leaves? I don't think extracts works for sublingual administration.

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OfflineLuSiD9
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Re: oral salvia [Re: AuroraBorealis88]
    #25047455 - 03/07/18 09:26 PM (6 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

AuroraBorealis88 said:
I don't think extracts works for sublingual administration.




but why???

I don't get it lol


--------------------
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Our laws make law impossible; our liberties destroy all freedom; our property is organized robbery; our morality an impudent hypocrisy; our wisdom is administered by inexperienced or mal-experienced dupes; our power wielded by cowards and weaklings; and our honour false in all its points. I am an enemy of the existing order for good reasons.

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Offlinephysics envy
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Re: oral salvia [Re: infectedstyle]
    #25047823 - 03/08/18 02:22 AM (6 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

infectedstyle said:
Can someone explain like you are explaining to a kid why 30x salvia doesn't work. But chewing 30 leaves does. Does it?




It *DOES* work.

But it is very hard to use because you have to chew/grind the salvinorin, and that's just not very easy with tiny particles of leaf.

I learned from RedGreenVines that salvinorin is a waxy substance, and it will not penetrate your gums well unless you grind it up.

The teabag method will work.

I don't know if it's a technique issue or a personal chemistry, but it's common for people to have trouble getting quids to work. Maybe for those 'hard heads' a tincture would work better?  I don't have personal experience in that arena.

In my experience, smoking cannabis just before chewing helps. 

I also like to use ear bud headphones with a drone or ambient sounds to help drown out outside noise/distractions.  I use a winter cap pulled down over my eyes.  At lower doses, I do not have OEVs, but do have physical sensations and CEVs.

After chewing for about 10-15 minutes, try slowing rolling your head around and see if it continues on its own like it's in a water current.  If so, try going with it...you can easily move your arms and hands around while sitting.  For me, once I tap into that 'current', I can move with it effortlessly for quite a while until I intentionally stop it.  Until I do...my body can just flow with the current.  Then visions appear shortly after I notice the physical component starting. 

Quote:

LuSiD9 said:is a gram of 30x too little?... how many grams of plain leaf would one need to chew for a solid experience?




That is quite excessive in regards to the amount of salvinorin needed.  It seems most people need about 2-5grams of plain leaf, which translates to about 5-13mg of salvinorin.  A gram of legitimate 30x extract has about 30x2.5mg or 75mg of salvinorin!  If you purchased yours from a vendor, it will most likely say how many mg of salvinorin were used.  The place I sometimes get leaves from also sells a standardized 20x that they say has 80mg of salvinorin...


Quote:

LuSiD9 said:
I'm curious about the extract you didn't put back on to leaf... I tested this once making my own extraction, smoked a piece of the 'wax' and my god did I trip!




Was this a black tar goo or greenish wax or something different?  The powder I mentioned started out as a black goo from using long pulls during the extraction, then cleaned up into the powder.  It was hard to grind, and from looking in a mirror I think I was only able to effectively chew about 10 of the 20mg used.  But it was enough to give me a pretty standard quid experience.  And this powder is even tinier than most well-ground extracts I've purchased...so it definitely *can* work.


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OfflineLuSiD9
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Re: oral salvia [Re: physics envy]
    #25047836 - 03/08/18 03:03 AM (6 years, 22 days ago)

2 to 5 grams of plain leaf???... what the bloody hell am I doing wrong???....

surely, a gram of something thirty times more potent would have at least some sort of placebo effect?

I'm not doubting you... well... maybe I kind of am.

a gram of 30x is excessive??

man this shit was insanely potent, I won't post names of companies but HOLY SHIT this stuff was potent!... I've sampled A LOT of salvia... LOTS... the shit I had was just unbelievabley potent, all my friends said the same lol.

I am absolutely baffled... did I mention how potent this shit was? :lol:

just nothing though orally... not even threshold or placebo.

as for your question about the extract I made, it was really dark green and waxy... crazy potent too.. I kinda wish I tried an oral dose with it before I put it back on leaf.


--------------------
Nothing is true, everything is permissible.

Our laws make law impossible; our liberties destroy all freedom; our property is organized robbery; our morality an impudent hypocrisy; our wisdom is administered by inexperienced or mal-experienced dupes; our power wielded by cowards and weaklings; and our honour false in all its points. I am an enemy of the existing order for good reasons.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: oral salvia [Re: LuSiD9]
    #25047918 - 03/08/18 06:01 AM (6 years, 22 days ago)

give up on oral - it's messy and wasteful anyway.
I am certain it is not "the original spiritual way" but instead something invented by tricky native curanderos to make fun of white "master race" ethno-botanists who want to taste their magic:
Let's make them drool uncomfortably by chewing cigars of salvia leaves and fill their heads with "superstitious" anecdotes of Ska Maria Pastora.
Now Kathleen Harrison (Terrence M's wife) is blabbing about this holy path.
It's all quite silly IMO.


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: oral salvia [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25048187 - 03/08/18 09:59 AM (6 years, 21 days ago)

IME oral is not that good effect

smoked is wonder or like a wonder drug


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Offlinephysics envy
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Re: oral salvia [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25048390 - 03/08/18 11:37 AM (6 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

LuSiD9 said:
2 to 5 grams of plain leaf???... what the bloody hell am I doing wrong???....




Can you obtain some plain leaf which is not terribly crushed up?  If so, I'd say get a bit of that and give it a go before completely giving up on the buccal method.  You can make several 1gram packs of leaf and chew a couple at a time.  One gram in each cheek is not terribly difficult to chew slowly but consistently for 10-15 minutes.  If that doesn't work, you can spit that out and try 2 more. 

You obviously have plenty of experience with Salvia space, so if you close your eyes and sit still for the trial, you'll notice even light effects. 

If you don't get any effect, then the salvia must just not be able to get through your gums :confused:

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
give up on oral - it's messy and wasteful anyway.




It seems to me it is only wasteful if it doesn't work at all for someone orally. 

If it DOES work, then the amount it takes is the amount it takes.  It's not the same experience as smoking, and has a different required dosage.  It doesn't seem like a fair comparison to me. 

If I can break through with 20mg smoked DMT, but need 100mg for a pharmahuasca journey, I wouldn't say I'm wasting my DMT because I needed to use 5x more than when smoking.  They're two very different experiences, each with their own required dosages.

I'm guessing you haven't found the oral salvia experience useful to you as you consistently tell people not to try it, it's messy, and it's wasteful.  Personally, I've found it more beneficial overall for personal insights and physical issues, so I will encourage people to give it a few 'good' attempts before giving in.


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OfflineRoute 51
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Re: oral salvia [Re: physics envy]
    #25054526 - 03/10/18 01:18 PM (6 years, 19 days ago)

I don't think it has anything to do with the leaves being crushed up.

I'm starting to think extracts simply aren't any stronger than plain leaf when chewed. I don't know what sort of chemistry would be involved here, but I've seen this before and this is what it seems like to me. People think they can use 20x less chew with a 20x extract but it doesn't work at all.

If you still have extract left, try just chewing 2-4g as if you had plain leaf.


Disregard this advice, it's bogus. Chewing this much extract is dangerous!

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
give up on oral - it's messy and wasteful anyway.
I am certain it is not "the original spiritual way" but instead something invented by tricky native curanderos to make fun of white "master race" ethno-botanists who want to taste their magic:
Let's make them drool uncomfortably by chewing cigars of salvia leaves and fill their heads with "superstitious" anecdotes of Ska Maria Pastora.
Now Kathleen Harrison (Terrence M's wife) is blabbing about this holy path.
It's all quite silly IMO.





This is definitely not true as the Mazatec didn't tell us about chewing. It's westerners who came up with chewing for buccal absorption. The traditional methods are tea and simply eating the leaves, both of which require really massive doses, moreso than chewing.

Edited by Route 51 (03/11/18 10:24 AM)

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: oral salvia [Re: Route 51]
    #25055158 - 03/10/18 07:52 PM (6 years, 19 days ago)



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OfflineRoute 51
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Re: oral salvia [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25055251 - 03/10/18 09:12 PM (6 years, 19 days ago)

Your link agrees with me:

Quote:

By the summer of 1993, Salvia aficionados in California had discovered that by far the most potent means of ingesting the fresh leaves was the so-called ‘quid method,’ chewing the leaves well and retaining the leaf mass and juice in the cheek, in the manner in which coca (Erythroxylum coca LAM.) is typically chewed, swallowing neither the leaves nor their juice. ValdĂ©s, with whom the ‘basement shamans’ communicated this finding, later mistakenly reported that the Mazatecs so use the leaves:



“Some Mazatecs, as well as nonnative experimenters, chew a cocalike quid of the fresh leaves that induces strong and persistent visions ... Mazatec informants made a quid of four to five pairs ...” (ValdĂ©s 1994b)



In fact, this method was discovered by non-professional researchers in California, again besting the Mazatecs, who failed to discover this most effective method of ingestion, just as they failed to discover the activity of dried leaves or their activity when smoked.




Quote:

To be sure, in the course of chewing 20-80 pairs of fresh leaves, the leaf matter would needs be in contact with buccal mucosa for an extended period, allowing buccal absorption ... but why did the Mazatec Indians fail to discover the obvious advantages of the quid method? This question is especially pointed in that, as Pendell noted: “by the eighth swallow of the leaves the gag reflex becomes overwhelming” (Pendell 1995). ValdĂ©s offered an explanation at least for the failure of Mazatec shamans to note the activity of dried leaves




Quote:

ValdĂ©s’ paper was rather a review of the state of knowledge on Salvia divinorum than a report of any new results from his own research. Unfortunately, this was marred by several mistakes. Besides the abovementioned misattribution of the quid method to Mazatec informants of Bret Blosser, who learned of this from Americans in Los Angeles, not from his informants in the Sierra Mazateca (Blosser 1991-1993),




Quote:

Siebert’s studies showed it to be indeed an inefficient method—a marginal, low dose which provoked no effects in an imitation of the Mazatec technique (and the same dose which was all but inactive for Albert Hofmann, even when prepared under the supervision of María Sabina) was “consistently effective” at evoking “definite psychoactive effects” utilizing the simple quid method, readily discovered by American ‘basement shamans,’ but not divined by the Mazatecs.




The Mazatec never used quids, and didn't try to trick westerners by telling them to use quids. The quid is a western (Californian) invention. Your theory of the Mazatec shamans trying to mislead westerners with the quid is just false, as your link describes in great detail.

Edited by Route 51 (03/10/18 09:25 PM)

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Offlinephysics envy
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Re: oral salvia [Re: Route 51]
    #25055561 - 03/11/18 04:34 AM (6 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

Route 51 said:
I don't think it has anything to do with the leaves being crushed up.

I'm starting to think extracts simply aren't any stronger than plain leaf when chewed. I don't know what sort of chemistry would be involved here, but I've seen this before and this is what it seems like to me. People think they can use 20x less chew with a 20x extract but it doesn't work at all.

If you still have extract left, try just chewing 2-4g as if you had plain leaf.





Heh - it's late and maybe my math is off, but 2g of my extract which I think is 1/3 salvinorin would contain 667mg of salvinorin.  What if it actually WORKS!?!?

Have you tried a similar test and found them to be the same in terms of depth of experience?

Either way, I'm always up for a salvia experiment :-) 

In my last trial, I started with 10mg extract (3mg Salvinorin), and got where I normally get with about 1/2g plain leaf (1.5mg Salvinorin).  I added another 10mg after about 20 minutes (to total 6mg salvinorin).    This took me to where roughly 1.25g plain leaf (~3.75mg salv) gets me.  So it seemed to be about half as efficient as salvinorin from plain leaf.

I just checked and I have about 60mg of the powder left at the moment (containing 20mg salvinorin).  If I find time for a potentially HEAVY experience this week, I'll give 40mg (13mg Salv) a try and see if it's maxes out where my last trial did.


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OfflineRoute 51
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Re: oral salvia [Re: physics envy]
    #25055929 - 03/11/18 10:15 AM (6 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

physics envy said:
Heh - it's late and maybe my math is off, but 2g of my extract which I think is 1/3 salvinorin would contain 667mg of salvinorin.  What if it actually WORKS!?!?

Have you tried a similar test and found them to be the same in terms of depth of experience?

Either way, I'm always up for a salvia experiment :-) 

In my last trial, I started with 10mg extract (3mg Salvinorin), and got where I normally get with about 1/2g plain leaf (1.5mg Salvinorin).  I added another 10mg after about 20 minutes (to total 6mg salvinorin).    This took me to where roughly 1.25g plain leaf (~3.75mg salv) gets me.  So it seemed to be about half as efficient as salvinorin from plain leaf.

I just checked and I have about 60mg of the powder left at the moment (containing 20mg salvinorin).  If I find time for a potentially HEAVY experience this week, I'll give 40mg (13mg Salv) a try and see if it's maxes out where my last trial did.




Well, if chewing extract works fine for you then disregard what I said earlier. I've just seen a lot of people failing to get results from chewing extract and thought that might have something to do with it. I guess a more likely reason for the lack of effects is that those people have poor technique and just don't chew it properly, or they're swallowing the juice. I'm certainly not going to recommend anyone dose themselves with 600+mg of salvinorin A!

I've only ever used plain leaf myself, whether smoking or chewing, and it's been so strong I still have trouble understanding why people bother to make extracts at all.

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Offlinephysics envy
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Re: oral salvia [Re: Route 51]
    #25057646 - 03/12/18 03:45 AM (6 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Route 51 said:
I don't think it has anything to do with the leaves being crushed up.

I'm starting to think extracts simply aren't any stronger than plain leaf when chewed. I don't know what sort of chemistry would be involved here, but I've seen this before and this is what it seems like to me. People think they can use 20x less chew with a 20x extract but it doesn't work at all.

If you still have extract left, try just chewing 2-4g as if you had plain leaf.


Disregard this advice, it's bogus. Chewing this much extract is dangerous!





Although I too would caution against chewing that much extract "just in case", in my own plain leaf experiences, I do pretty much hit a cap. 

For my quid trials, I've come up with my own rating scale from 1-5 for depth.  (These are not the same as for smoked...just my own quidding.)

On my scale, I reach a 2 with 500mg plain leaf, and quickly shoot up to a 4 at 750mg where I pretty much plateau.  If I use 1-2grams, I get to about a 4.5 and can extend the trip, but it doesn't really get much deeper.  So 750mg is my goto dose.  It's the minimum amount that I can guarantee I get to my level 4, which is the basic salvia-space that I'm shooting for.

So I did the 40mg powder experiment tonight (containing approx. 13mg salvinorin).  It was about the same as 1-2g plain leaf experience - and my previous 20mg powder trial. 

I didn't use the remaining 20mg because I didn't think it would increase the depth, just extend the trip.

Maybe someone with more knowledge could chime in with details for or against this - but it seems like there is a maximum usable amount of salvinorin that can get in buccally. I can extend the trip indefinitely as long as I keep chewing more leaf, but the trip strength itself always maxes out at the same level. 

I recall Twig Harper was working on methods to increase the achievable depth of buccal trips by mixing with other agents, but I never had a chance to try them.  He was supposed to be making more a few years ago, but seemed to fall off the map.


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: oral salvia [Re: physics envy]
    #25058872 - 03/12/18 05:24 PM (6 years, 17 days ago)

good reading

salvia beats marajuana out of the water

in denmark we say good smoker, like means good smoking;good stuff


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OfflineLuSiD9
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Re: oral salvia [Re: Route 51]
    #25061730 - 03/13/18 10:42 PM (6 years, 16 days ago)

smoking plain leaf has never lead to anything more than a kind of interesting but mostly uncomfortable 'buzz'... no matter how much I smoke, even with supposedly the most 'potent strains ever'... I get a slight sense of the conveyor belt movement and sideways reality. but that's it, it's very subtle, with the occasional laugh attack... very very synergystic with other drugs though, especially dissociatives... (maybe a bit of some sense of being in a rainbow colored rock tumbler if I close my eyes I guess now that I think of it)

5x is where things get real for me... a few rips of that and 'I' get split into slices but my slices are still mostly aware of eachother in some weird way while we get spinned around a wheel of sorts.. the laugh attacks when they happen at this point are almost too much.

20x and beyond.... I mean... 'I' become a molecule on a piece of an incomprehensible sized cog of a gear, that turns another imcomprehensible sized gear, in some sort of incomprehensible sized machine that is directly controled by an infinitely huge amount of gears, with some sort of conveyor belt that spits 'my' pieces back together, slice by slice at the end of it for some reason.... it's not even a 'realization'... it's the only state of being you've ever known, ever, being part of that cog in the wheel. coming back from that is even weirder than the disintigration in the first place.

something like that anyways, so hard to explain :lol:

if plain leaf can do that to you, I don't think you're smoking plain leaf, just saying lol :aweshift:

Edited by LuSiD9 (03/13/18 11:14 PM)

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: oral salvia [Re: LuSiD9]
    #25062333 - 03/14/18 09:28 AM (6 years, 15 days ago)

it can if you roll very fat joint (cigars) and smoke fast, or fill a big pipe and smoke fast, but this will be hard on your lungs.


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OfflineLuSiD9
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Re: oral salvia [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25070005 - 03/17/18 12:16 AM (6 years, 13 days ago)

I bought a pound of it from sieberts website back in the day, I smoked bowl after bowl after bowl after bowl... never got anything like what I'd been reading about at the time and thought for sure they must've been exaggerating.

then, I learned how to make enhanced leaf... I understood after that :awesomenod:

I've never been able to get off from plain leaf, at least not to the point where I like to be with salvia... just can't seem to get enough in me before my lungs feel like they're gonna collapse.

I still use it for enhancing other psychs/dissociatives though... a nice fat doobie with a mixture of leaf and weed can do absolutely amazing things to a K or dxm trip :thumbup:


--------------------
Nothing is true, everything is permissible.

Our laws make law impossible; our liberties destroy all freedom; our property is organized robbery; our morality an impudent hypocrisy; our wisdom is administered by inexperienced or mal-experienced dupes; our power wielded by cowards and weaklings; and our honour false in all its points. I am an enemy of the existing order for good reasons.

Edited by LuSiD9 (03/17/18 12:16 AM)

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