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Offlinesoberami
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26080595 - 06/29/19 11:11 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Why is it that if the self  is self-evident (as existing?), then there must be a free will contained in that, or a result of logical conclusion (?), of that premise?
If one contains a self that exercises any volition, what is "free" about decisions, if the decisions are a reaction to pre-existing other conditions?


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Offlinesoberami
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: soberami] * 1
    #26080609 - 06/29/19 11:23 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

A decision that any soul makes is always based upon information external to the soul that is making the decision....and the soul is limited by the information gathered for the purposes of "making" a decision (about something still external to the soul).....and the decision is a "result" (conclusion drawn), reasonable to the soul REACTING to the stimuli. Hence, no decision is "free" of the information and the conclusion supernaturally received from outside the one so-called "making" the decision. No one -- and I mean NO ONE -- "makes" a decision. Rather, they have always been discovered and learned. The learning shapes and molds other decisions that follow. These "other decisions" are the offspring of an original prior decision.....and these "other decisions" are likewise external to the soul, discovered....never MADE, and no one is "free" from them to determine any outcome one concludes (discover) by them.


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Offlinesoberami
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: Threads from God89]
    #26080625 - 06/29/19 11:33 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Threads from God89 said:
Hello fellows....

      So my question right now is, from a Christian point of view.... If God made us in His Image then why did he leave room for evil deeds when it comes to our "free will"???  If we were crafted in His image, then why are things so fucked up?? 

      Why do some human beings act the way they do???  Idk, but I welcome thoughts on this topic...from any point of view.  Agnostic, Christian, Catholic, Athiest, Satanist.... I really am just looking for opinions on this subject!!!  Thank You's!!!





Alas, the problem of "evil" if there if there is no such thing as "free" will. Why is there so-called evil if there is nothing in this universe apart from the will of God, if all things are pre- and determined by Him.
That is a good question playing the part of God.
However, Genesis, 50, 20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.


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Offlinesoberami
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: soberami]
    #26080685 - 06/29/19 12:20 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

If all things are the offspring of an Original Source, then the original source is the Father of all things.


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Offlinesoberami
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: soberami]
    #26080687 - 06/29/19 12:22 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

The "Problem" with "Free" Will is that it is evident that all actions are subsequent to all actions which preceded them, and all are the Effect of something, not the Cause.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: soberami]
    #26080740 - 06/29/19 12:54 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

No one -- and I mean NO ONE -- "makes" a decision. Rather, they have always been discovered and learned. The learning shapes and molds other decisions that follow.




this is actually accurate.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: soberami] * 1
    #26081236 - 06/29/19 06:49 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

soberami said:
We are cleansed by the word of God.



what word is that, I could use a bit of a rinse after reading this gobbledygook, no consensus on any terms.

cleanse me, lordy!


--------------------


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26081620 - 06/29/19 11:34 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Without a clear definition of what belongs in the "Spirituality & Mysticism" forum & what belongs in the "Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology" forum
and an enforcement of rules that maintain the distinction
meaningless, dogmatic, drivel that totally lacks referents* such as: "We are cleansed by the word of God." , will go on here.

* https://glossary.sil.org/term/referent


--------------------



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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26081832 - 06/30/19 02:52 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

soberami said:
We are cleansed by the word of God.



what word is that, I could use a bit of a rinse after reading this gobbledygook, no consensus on any terms.

cleanse me, lordy!




you have to experience something to have something.

most people talk shit. you also talk shit.

it's immensely funny- because right afterwards you make claims about apparently "spiritual" stuff- yet it's all reduced to mere exercise without the payoff [in no uncertain terms].

a full circle of having no experience or simply having no way to define the spiritual experience qua experience. just vague notions- hence why they are all couched in psychological/physiological terms.


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #26081889 - 06/30/19 04:30 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

The idea of freewill is either true or false..


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #26086370 - 07/02/19 04:28 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

BrendanFlock said:

The idea of freewill is either true or false.




Or is this like asking if anger is real? (Which is highly debatable.)  I'm repeating myself by saying I believe the word "freewill" is meaningless, because the word "free" is so ambiguous. One can believe there is no separate "Self" and at the same time accept we are individuals (with a self) who make choices and decisions.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? *DELETED* [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #26086470 - 07/02/19 05:21 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Post deleted by laughingdog

Reason for deletion: x


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26087385 - 07/03/19 04:36 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Maybe we could ask ourselves whether we have free will in a car?

We certainly can choose the way we take and how fast we go, but at the same time we have limitations and regulations as to how free we are. Like from my point of view right now, being free isn't something akin to being able to fly, it's just having more flexibility in most aspects.

I also want to flex my free will and say stfu about ego dissolution, this isn't directly at you, this is just in general, I think it's taken to describe most things about drug influenced experiences someone doesn't have an understanding of.

I'll free ball it here and woke you all in saying that consciousness is when the self has awareness of ego dissolution, and neither you nor I have any idea in the slightest of what that means.

Cut the shit, in this philosophy forum I am doubtful to take anyone seriously who uses the words ego dissolution, the self, consciousness or awareness in a sentence.

It is shoveling shit as far as I'm concerned.

It may be semantics but I cannot grasp any point being made in the use of such words.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Edited by sudly (07/03/19 04:46 AM)


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: sudly] * 1
    #26087876 - 07/03/19 12:05 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

:ilold:

edit: the cyclical delusional of people's thinking is hilarious. they will never know how to stop it. "the self isn't even a thing, only scientific deduction thru empirical evidence is reality" -- *either dies, or some experience brings about...* "oh look, i can't identify anymore with sense-impressions or materiality as 'real', because i have clearly seen the non-reality of these ephemeral 'beings', i thought in multiplicity were separate from consciousness...well isn't my face red".


the sun beats down on everyone, making them forget how to act
and they radiate the peace and love and joy they need for happiness
just only from nowhen and in harmony in sync with the bliss from these things.


Edited by akira_akuma (07/03/19 02:54 PM)


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Invisibleremake
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #26087938 - 07/03/19 12:55 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Here is some more drivel:

We are free in so much as we give or receive unconditional love regardless of our actions.

Conditional love allows us to make only one choice without going "back".

You can only witness one action at a time, as far as I'm aware of. A belief in time then shapes the illusion that this choice was the only choice you could have made, and thus, because we cannot truly say why we made the choice and because we cannot go "back" after making the choice - we are not free.

For example:

Why did you write all that down? Where did those thoughts come from? Did you have a choice in how your life led up to the point of using them? Did you choose what words of other people spoke to you throughout your own experience to use them, and express your own belief/disbelief?

Was it not a sequence of events that you truly weren't completely in control of?

But - this is only in relation to our concept of Time imo.

We conquer Time through unconditional love.

Let's take a flat surface in front of us, and regard that as The Present, and the objects on them as us or things we can 'consciously' influence.

We can technically move the objects in any direction within this timelessness without consequence, and thus in such a way - we are truly free to do what we want.

But only in so much, as we disregard the meaning of these movements. And focus on what lies beyond them, on a deeper level.

If there are consequences to our actions, after which we cannot go "back" from. We are not truly "free".

So

True Unconditional Love = No Consequence to actions = freedom of movement.

Conditional Love = Consequence to actions = chained movement.


--------------------


Edited by remake (07/03/19 01:07 PM)


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Invisibleremake
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: remake]
    #26087981 - 07/03/19 01:16 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

In this case, sudly is giving anyone conditional love in terms of what words or concepts to use in the Philosphy, Sociology & Psychology forum.

We are free to still speak of these things, unless we fear a "word-spank" or "mockery" from sudly. Then we are not free.

sudly is also not free in terms of what other people might still speak of, regardless of his beliefs or requests, and thus, he is not free in his expression of his own conditional love.

This is just a joke, though, :tongue:

But also, slightly meant as something to think about.


--------------------


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Invisibleremake
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: remake]
    #26088002 - 07/03/19 01:26 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Sorry for posting so much,

But,

Maybe the question is: are you truly in control of everything you see?

Is imposing our will upon it not inducing slavery? The exact opposite of freedom?

Is true freedom to let it be?

Do we have to impose resistance to maintain our freedom?


--------------------


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: sudly]
    #26088007 - 07/03/19 01:27 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

the neat thing about this is that you are listing things that are discretionary
i.e. establishing a field of action - eg driving in car, or typing into forum comment box, and then declaring what you assess to be appropriate action or how to continue..

is there anything to say about "will", or what is "will", or how is it defined, or is it like "last will and testament", or what "will be will be"?

perhaps it is simply a matter of discretion. or selecting an action, perceiving an opportunity to act and proceeding and doing.

so is the will any of that? is it "selecting", is it "perceiving opportunity", is it "doing", or is it merely what "will" happen next?

is spontaneity a factor? what might it indicate if a trigger to act were obvious, prompted or hidden and spontaneous seeming?

I think the whole view of will is confused between wishing for what cannot be and discovering what will be as things continue continuing - then mix that up with the whole mystery of self and ego, which is more of a fog than a true mystery.




Quote:

sudly said:
Maybe we could ask ourselves whether we have free will in a car?

We certainly can choose the way we take and how fast we go, but at the same time we have limitations and regulations as to how free we are. Like from my point of view right now, being free isn't something akin to being able to fly, it's just having more flexibility in most aspects.

I also want to flex my free will and say stfu about ego dissolution, this isn't directly at you, this is just in general, I think it's taken to describe most things about drug influenced experiences someone doesn't have an understanding of.

I'll free ball it here and woke you all in saying that consciousness is when the self has awareness of ego dissolution, and neither you nor I have any idea in the slightest of what that means.

Cut the shit, in this philosophy forum I am doubtful to take anyone seriously who uses the words ego dissolution, the self, consciousness or awareness in a sentence.

It is shoveling shit as far as I'm concerned.

It may be semantics but I cannot grasp any point being made in the use of such words.




--------------------


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: remake]
    #26088113 - 07/03/19 02:48 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

FranniePilgrim said:
Do we have to impose resistance to maintain our freedom?




It often seems that way to me. If only because of how difficult it is to let go. It seems one has to counter the doer somehow, perhaps you can only do this by tricking him. Of course drugs work too for a time.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: remake] * 1
    #26088628 - 07/03/19 08:24 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

I didn’t say don’t ever do it, I said I’m doubtful to take seriously those who do.

Unconditional love should come with a free doormat imo.

I can add that just because someone is using said words, it doesn’t mean they don’t have a point to make, just that in using certain words it can muddy the waters and make hazey what points may be.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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