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InvisiblePatrickKn
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Registered: 07/10/11
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: Ferdinando]
    #25038208 - 03/04/18 02:49 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ferdinando said:
it is like the essence of every situation is unstuckness



Not love, and "all you need is love".


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #25038963 - 03/04/18 09:00 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
logic is just a stylistic when it comes to ratiocination.
like fashion is to clothing.



but what are you getting at? that logic isn't the end all be all? that's obvious. logic eventually breaks down into what amounts to a drain, a drain that simply funnels everything down to it's point of reference- but what's past the drain is the truth. logic can't hardly get there, really, because it's just a hole, a gap, in the ultimate knowledge.

Quote:

Quote:

Ferdinando said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
like non-slavery, or unstuckness.




I think that is what everyone wants

indeed what all the universe wants

it is like the essence of every situation is unstuckness








and stuck is what everything is, seemingly. because nothing really adds up to a complete picture.

the only think that isn't stuck is thought, and even that people cannot help but condemn as a "problem".



Logic breaks down when there is nothing more to think of..


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #25039297 - 03/04/18 11:21 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

when I call it a style or fashion of thinking, I mean that as fashion changes, the rightness of the logic shifts.
Human logic is pattern based and fuzzy at best, not like the logic in computers which has fixed rules without exceptions every time by virtue of a true logic processing unit. We have no such circuitry. but we can recognize patterns of reasonableness.


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25039496 - 03/05/18 01:57 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:

Maybe as in learning from mistakes, but then we are not talking about PTS, we are talking about failure, and this connects to shame, which also is a kind of PTS.




The shame of "failure" is a result of our beliefs.

"I shouldn't fail." and "I shouldn't make mistakes." are beliefs.

I propose we can abandon such beliefs using... wait for it.... free will.


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InvisiblePatrickKn
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #25039507 - 03/05/18 02:06 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I'm not so sure that belief is something someone can easily abandon by free will alone. There would need to be outside factors that influence such a choice.

Shame, guilt and humiliation aren't choices, they are feelings that are reinforced by experience.


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: PatrickKn]
    #25039523 - 03/05/18 02:17 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Shame and guilt are emotions that are created by specific beliefs.

You can't feel shame unless you believe the thoughts that give birth to the disturbance.


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #25039535 - 03/05/18 02:27 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Shame and guilt are emotions that are created by specific beliefs.

You can't feel shame unless you believe the thoughts that give birth to the disturbance.



Then how can one come clean so to speak.. or should I ask.. what are the correct beliefs to have?


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #25039541 - 03/05/18 02:31 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Maybe we'd be the most safe from ourselves by holding all beliefs lightly?


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: Threads from God89]
    #25039648 - 03/05/18 04:20 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Or we could believe in what is most likely probable, provable or evident.

Shame and guilt are tough emotions to pinpoint an origin for, some beliefs I think can be held lightly, like if it really is a bad thing to slap your girls ass.

I've felt shame for a lot of things but I don't anymore, they tended to be shame that I decided to ignore things I saw as faults.

Guilt and shame could make a whole nother thread, what they are, how they feel, how they're overcome, why they are etc.

My problems with free will, I think, are the patience it takes to commit, act and consistently do so. Sometimes it's easy when I have a certain task on mind, because I kind of know or have an idea of what I'm supposed to do and how to do it, and I know what I'll get out of it.

Sometimes I know what to do, and how to do it, yet I don't have the patience to see it through so maybe having an idea of what you'll get out of your actions is important to consider in a discussion on free will.

Also, isn't the ability to decide to act upon 'evil deeds' the definition of free will?


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: sudly] * 2
    #25039717 - 03/05/18 07:24 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

It is possible to change beliefs in the same way as it is possible to defeat PTS, slowly by repetition, the notion that you can change belief by free will alone involves magic that does not exist.
(i.e. it is a belief you need to deflate - and what is will anyway?)
Belief is another word for conditioning, which may be too general a term for some conversations.


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25039825 - 03/05/18 09:04 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

maybe will is you (your values) meeting with the outside world and your values pushing the world away
thus shaping the world
but in a good way maybe. or in a negative way. depending on the quality or level of your values.


--------------------
by protecting oneself one protects others
by protecting others one protects oneself


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #25040359 - 03/05/18 02:15 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

As soon as there is a choice, one can use 'free will'. It's synonymous.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25041703 - 03/05/18 11:48 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
It is possible to change beliefs in the same way as it is possible to defeat PTS, slowly by repetition, the notion that you can change belief by free will alone involves magic that does not exist.
(i.e. it is a belief you need to deflate - and what is will anyway?)
Belief is another word for conditioning, which may be too general a term for some conversations.




I get where you're coming from but I did stop seeing Mary Jane in somewhat of a magical way.. guess it was free will imposed though so maybe that's different.

Maybe will is what you predict :shrug:

I don't like the word conditioning much either, in my experience some people tend to think cultural conditioning is the main type, a set of beliefs that were imposed upon us instead of trained or practiced or learnt and experienced.

So 'reinforced consistency' might fit as a method of changing beliefs.

I like the idea of deflating or inflating a belief too.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Offlinesoberami
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: Threads from God89]
    #26075318 - 06/26/19 05:45 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Free will is a deception....for all decisions are based upon priori stimuli -- a pre-existing set of events. The "decision" is an offspring, not the root. Grace -- a free gift provided -- is the root. And, the decision will follow suit.


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OfflineRevelation88
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: soberami]
    #26076353 - 06/27/19 06:13 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

I believe the only way it's possible that we have free will is for him to purposely limit his power. I believe he does that by sharing it with us. I believe Jesus was a symbolism for that principality. We have the chocie to align our will with his. That is love


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Invisibleremake
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: Revelation88] * 1
    #26076444 - 06/27/19 08:26 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

I have no free will and thus cannot be blamed for stating the following:

Pala pala ping mootootoo.

Having no free will sounds pretty awesome to me right now, since it means I don't have to worry about anything then and life isn't that bad once acceptance truly kicks in. 

I currently think we are just consciousness fuckn around in eternity. But I might be insane. But this is not my fault or choice, so that's okay...

Life is crazy guys. :peace:


--------------------


Edited by remake (07/02/19 09:38 PM)


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InvisiblePatrickKn
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: remake]
    #26076450 - 06/27/19 08:31 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Free will isn't necessarily a prerequisite to fault and responsibility.


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Invisibleremake
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: PatrickKn]
    #26076458 - 06/27/19 08:37 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

But can you truly blame someone if they apparently had no choice?

or perhaps, the act of blaming is also not a choice?

With no free will. It only makes sense to not care either way.

And if I had no choice in saying what I'm saying now,

who am I?


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InvisiblePatrickKn
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: remake]
    #26076478 - 06/27/19 08:52 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

FranniePilgrim said:
But can you truly blame someone if they apparently had no choice?

or perhaps, the act of blaming is also not a choice?

With no free will. It only makes sense to not care either way.

And if I had no choice in saying what I'm saying now,

who am I?



Blame should be given to those at fault. Fault and free will are not mutually exclusive, because someone can be at fault regardless of their will, and be responsible for things regardless of how they wanted actions to play out.

Free will and caring are not mutually exclusive either. I do not care for things because I've merely chosen to, I care for things because there is interest and concern for them. People who choose to care for things appear to others as acting like they care for things.

And if you had no choice in saying what you're saying, you're still the one saying it.


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Invisibleremake
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: PatrickKn]
    #26076485 - 06/27/19 08:58 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

:manofapproval:

That made alot of sense to me right now.

Still freaks me out thinking about having no free will though.

Guess we'll just have to:

'see what happens'


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