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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25028818 - 02/28/18 03:42 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
like non-slavery, or unstuckness.




I think that is what everyone wants

indeed what all the universe wants

it is like the essence of every situation is unstuckness


--------------------
maybe just meaning as much to it as possible
and anti-meaning as little to it as possible


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25028856 - 02/28/18 03:58 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
logic is just a stylistic when it comes to ratiocination.
like fashion is to clothing.



but what are you getting at? that logic isn't the end all be all? that's obvious. logic eventually breaks down into what amounts to a drain, a drain that simply funnels everything down to it's point of reference- but what's past the drain is the truth. logic can't hardly get there, really, because it's just a hole, a gap, in the ultimate knowledge.

Quote:

Quote:

Ferdinando said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
like non-slavery, or unstuckness.




I think that is what everyone wants

indeed what all the universe wants

it is like the essence of every situation is unstuckness








and stuck is what everything is, seemingly. because nothing really adds up to a complete picture.

the only think that isn't stuck is thought, and even that people cannot help but condemn as a "problem".


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #25029194 - 02/28/18 04:23 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

to aspire for a complete picture is a pretty poor aspiration

there is more inner smiling possible than the perspective you wrote

it is about how well things have gone and how much has been done for the state

it is not just like there is a glass that is half full and then it is full

my glass has spilt over


--------------------
maybe just meaning as much to it as possible
and anti-meaning as little to it as possible


Edited by Ferdinando (02/28/18 04:26 PM)


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: Ferdinando]
    #25029214 - 02/28/18 04:29 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

all in your own mind.

Quote:

to aspire for a complete picture is a pretty poor aspiration




that makes 0 sense.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #25029539 - 02/28/18 06:52 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

that's easy for you to say, but back to the point,
what is the point?
are we on about free will, slavery, stuck-ness, and coming unstuck?

I think much more is to be said about the naturalness of sticky things
so natural that the very idea of memory and consciousness is built upon things sticking in memory and staying stuck there.

becoming free in the mind involves knowing this, and not becoming unstuck except where it no longer makes sense.

learning how to be more free in the mind means understanding what sticks and why, and using that to transform yourself.


--------------------


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25029804 - 02/28/18 08:39 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

which mind?

Quote:

becoming free in the mind involves knowing this




know what? that thoughts do not stick, and that you can either see them coming and going, or use your mind to brush them away, or silence them?


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OfflineDeadfrancis
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: Threads from God89]
    #25031497 - 03/01/18 01:21 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

the rain does not fall to water the plants, the rain just falls and the plants get watered. we knew this long before someone convinced us there was a god. there is no problem with free will, maybe it conflicts with the idea of god, which wouldnt surprise me because there are a lot of things that conflict with the idea of a god, like the fact that hell and heaven can not exist but in one's mind, because to be free and heavenly you must be free mentally as well or else heaven is not heaven at all, and because heaven can be hellish it can not be called heaven unless you are referring to the glory of mental clarity.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #25032131 - 03/01/18 05:11 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
which mind?

Quote:

becoming free in the mind involves knowing this




know what? that thoughts do not stick, and that you can either see them coming and going, or use your mind to brush them away, or silence them?



you forgot already?
huh?
oh we are talking about things sticking in the mind, and being stuck with things in the mind:

what sticks in the mind?
----answer: experiences.
how are different experiences connected in memory?
----answer: the links are in similarity, or if they happen together, or both.
what makes those memorable experiences stick more?
----answer: repetition.
do we have choices that enable more or less repetition of experiences?
----answer: yes, both, we can choose to repeat an action or revisit a place to strengthen our memory of it and the memory of things linked to it and the things within it, or we can choose to pick other things to do and places to visit if we do not want to strengthen the related linkages.


--------------------


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25032391 - 03/02/18 12:20 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

all that = freedom in the mind?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #25032699 - 03/02/18 05:31 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

if "all that" is the choice of what to repeat (cultivate)
then yes, as far as that is concerned
we are at best gardeners (cultivating freedom)
or curators (arranging our galleries)
while we naturally are artists and inventors
traders and brutes


--------------------


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25033773 - 03/02/18 04:13 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I have learned that sometimes we are happy and it's quite positive

and we can seem to be in control and that things don't go sourly indeed we may not be aware of a single thing going sourly.

but we may still lack some control.


we make mistakes and those mistakes are problems.

the lack of control is still real and there might be some like discontent with lack of success. and we may be like oh fuck and like disheartened and not be so living that it's positive. but it is exactly like it is when we are like it is quite positive or we are happy and in control or at least it is a part (of when we or I am like disheartened and unsatisfied with lack of success and maybe control.


--------------------
maybe just meaning as much to it as possible
and anti-meaning as little to it as possible


Edited by Ferdinando (03/02/18 04:18 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: Ferdinando]
    #25034000 - 03/02/18 06:04 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

right well, unsatisfactoriness is certainly one of the hindrances that gets in the way of living in the moment, until you recognize that it is the flip side of craving, and when you see it as that hindrance, it looses impact upon your practice.


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25034473 - 03/02/18 09:42 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:

I think much more is to be said about the naturalness of sticky things
so natural that the very idea of memory and consciousness is built upon things sticking in memory and staying stuck there.




What's your opinion about the natural nature of "post traumatic stress"?

Isn't it a highly adaptive trait... for an animal to remember trauma in a magnified way?

People may increase their suffering by rejecting traumatic memories and wanting to eradicate them.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #25034555 - 03/02/18 10:11 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

you know what actually doesn't increase suffering, being unborn.

but since that isn't going to happen anytime soon...maybe we should look to stop forces that are evil, insane, repulsive, ignorant, or confused.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #25035451 - 03/03/18 10:09 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:

I think much more is to be said about the naturalness of sticky things
so natural that the very idea of memory and consciousness is built upon things sticking in memory and staying stuck there.




What's your opinion about the natural nature of "post traumatic stress"?

Isn't it a highly adaptive trait... for an animal to remember trauma in a magnified way?

People may increase their suffering by rejecting traumatic memories and wanting to eradicate them.



the traumatic memory gets reviewed, and the feelings that are connected to it become re-experienced each time.
each repetition makes it stronger and adds the current scene to the array of linkages that can associate it back - recall the feelings.
because each review strengthens the whole complex of the memory object group, "People DO increase their suffering by rejecting traumatic memories and wanting to eradicate them".

the way of working with trauma is to sit calmly beside the memory, beside the pain just sit, add no resistance (can be with a therapist or alone).

this new addition of peace and relaxing starts to become linked to the trauma memory complex.
the trauma is never gone, but the calm healing from within spreads into it and becomes part of it.


--------------------


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25035492 - 03/03/18 10:35 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

obvious the only resistance you should meeting, in such a case, is in the happenstance that one wishes to be learning from the experience in such a way as to come to some experimental or new conclusion, other than merely "working with/through" trauma.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: akira_akuma] * 1
    #25035782 - 03/03/18 01:10 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Maybe as in learning from mistakes, but then we are not talking about PTS, we are talking about failure, and this connects to shame, which also is a kind of PTS.
In any case, if it is crushingly oppressive you can't invent your way out or around it because of the disabling feelings that come up at each access. Unless you visit with intent to sit through calmly, anything seems to make it worse.

it's like the Japanese finger snare.


--------------------


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25035840 - 03/03/18 01:36 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

well, that is, unless you wanted to put yourself through that experience.

sort of like a Freudian obsession...it hurts, therefore, it's good, cause something can be learned about it.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #25036346 - 03/03/18 05:52 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

that is an unlisted fallacy: "no pain no gain"
I have been at war with that approach forever.

Note: I do not play football or rugby either. (nor hockey.....)

(small & skinny person)


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25037639 - 03/04/18 09:26 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

:laugh:

the middle way is so good


--------------------
maybe just meaning as much to it as possible
and anti-meaning as little to it as possible


Edited by Ferdinando (02/01/21 08:50 AM)


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