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OfflineXUL
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Nationalism is becoming more popular
    #25016346 - 02/23/18 03:04 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

The idea that a country should have pride in their culture, have borders, and keep low levels of immigration. It seems like people are fed up with the open border one world order.

Poland has more conservative politicians.

The United Kingdom has voted to leave the European Union.

America is celebrating its roots, building borders, and focusing on the average Joe.



--------------------
TRUMP 2020

Edited by XUL (02/23/18 03:35 PM)

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: XUL] * 1
    #25016374 - 02/23/18 03:14 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

XUL said:
It seems like people are fed up with the open border one world order.



:lolwut:

We don't have that.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Offlineqman
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25016430 - 02/23/18 03:37 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Nationalism = bigotry. :cookiemonster:

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OfflineXUL
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25016431 - 02/23/18 03:37 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

We have a nice rusty fence.


--------------------
TRUMP 2020

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Offlineqman
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: XUL] * 1
    #25016440 - 02/23/18 03:40 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Borders and citizenship are stupid, everybody should be able to go anywhere they want and use whatever social services they need for free.

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Offlineqman
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: qman] * 1
    #25016444 - 02/23/18 03:42 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

If governments can't afford all of these free social services it's because capitalism is bad, there's plenty of resources for everyone in the world.

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OfflineXUL
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: qman]
    #25016462 - 02/23/18 03:49 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Nationalism = bigotry. :cookiemonster:




People can call me that, but I support strong independent nations.


--------------------
TRUMP 2020

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InvisibleMagicMush123
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: XUL]
    #25016474 - 02/23/18 03:52 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Nationalism is the only way.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: qman] * 5
    #25016492 - 02/23/18 04:00 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Borders and citizenship are stupid, everybody should be able to go anywhere they want and use whatever social services they need for free.

If governments can't afford all of these free social services it's because capitalism is bad, there's plenty of resources for everyone in the world.



Those are both some really bad straw man arguments.

Keep enjoying that train ride through strawman country.  Choo choo!


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: XUL]
    #25016507 - 02/23/18 04:06 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

XUL said:
The idea that a country should have pride in their culture, have borders, and keep low levels of immigration. ...




It makes me feel weird as a Canadian

Love my country, make no mistake about that
but growing up, the census forms would not allow my family to identify as Canadian
instead having to be a mix of European countries we have never been to

then the national image is a confusing mix as well
we embrace First Nations cultures for having such a profound impact on this country
but our 'National History' begins part way through their story

even our flag, with the red maple leaf, could be construed as troubling
when reflecting on the fact that maples growth apparently exploded as a result of Europeans wiping out traditional Native methods of forest cultivation

Living on Canadian land,
but supposed to look to my family history for an identity
in lands that may never be visited

uhhhhh
dunno if anyone outside of Canada can watch this


it is a 40 minute documentary on a tradition in Germany
where people dress up and spend the season celebrating Native American life
due to popularization through German media of a Native figure

what is interesting to me
is it is a bunch of people who have, in a number of cases,
never been to North America
celebrating Native North American values and lifestyle
as they feel it gives them a connection to the land that their national heritage does not provide

the strange/conflicting factor for me personally
is that, at most, part of my family history traces into Native bloodlines
and people would regard me as a white girl 'appropriating' First Nations culture
for attempting to embrace that part of my history, which has a more direct connection to the land of my home
than the family histories across an ocean in Europe

yet people in Germany, who equally love their country
use the traditions as a framework to understand their national identity
despite there being the connections of Germanic tribes that could be traced back to the time of Romans
effectively inhabiting the land beneath their feet

no idea where this post was going anymore, sorry,
just random reflections and stuff
Canada is still a comparatively 'young' country in terms of national heritage

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OfflineSkellies


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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Tantrika]
    #25016555 - 02/23/18 04:26 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Imo nationalism and patriotism are feelings of pride and value for your country/nation. If you have pride in your country then you should be trying to improve it. That means being pragmatic about what policy's should be implemented and adopting an evidence based approach.

There's a lot of great things about America but to use that as an excuse for complacency is anti nationalistic in my opinion. I hope nationalism is getting more popular because more people are re-conceptualizing what nationalism entails but I can only hope.


--------------------
Nosleep mode: Activated

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OfflineShiVersblood
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Skellies]
    #25016643 - 02/23/18 05:00 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

I’m sick and tired of being told to feel guilty just because I am white. I stand up for America first, also. I think America should put America first.

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Offlineqman
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: ShiVersblood]
    #25016716 - 02/23/18 05:41 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
Borders and citizenship are stupid, everybody should be able to go anywhere they want and use whatever social services they need for free.

If governments can't afford all of these free social services it's because capitalism is bad, there's plenty of resources for everyone in the world.



Those are both some really bad straw man arguments.

Keep enjoying that train ride through strawman country.  Choo choo!




I have been enlightened and now view in the world in an entirely different manner.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: ShiVersblood]
    #25016736 - 02/23/18 05:47 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Stealth1Vampire said:
I’m sick and tired of being told to feel guilty just because I am white. I stand up for America first, also. I think America should put America first.



Who's telling you to feel guilty?  I've NEVER been told that.  Be grateful!


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Offlineqman
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: ShiVersblood]
    #25016760 - 02/23/18 05:57 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Stealth1Vampire said:
I’m sick and tired of being told to feel guilty just because I am white. I stand up for America first, also. I think America should put America first.




We're all humans and we shouldn't put any group of humans above another group. You should have the same level of concern for people 5000 miles away from you as your own family members. Nationalism is stupid, don't fall for it.

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InvisibleMagicMush123
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25016762 - 02/23/18 05:58 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Stealth1Vampire said:
I’m sick and tired of being told to feel guilty just because I am white. I stand up for America first, also. I think America should put America first.



Who's telling you to feel guilty?  I've NEVER been told that.  Be grateful!



Its pretty funny the differences between real life, and internet life. When i go online i hear about rampant racism and rapes, white guilt, male dominance, doom and gloom, the world is ending. 
While im living my life, everything is great and awesome. I never hear about or see the things people are talking about on the internet.  No body actually mentions these things or believe them at all. If it wasnt for the shroomery or YouTube, i wouldn't even have thought anyone would actually think this way

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OfflineXUL
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: qman]
    #25016911 - 02/23/18 06:56 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Stealth1Vampire said:
I’m sick and tired of being told to feel guilty just because I am white. I stand up for America first, also. I think America should put America first.




We're all humans and we shouldn't put any group of humans above another group. You should have the same level of concern for people 5000 miles away from you as your own family members. Nationalism is stupid, don't fall for it.




Are you serious right now?


--------------------
TRUMP 2020

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Offlineqman
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: XUL]
    #25017255 - 02/23/18 09:29 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

XUL said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Stealth1Vampire said:
I’m sick and tired of being told to feel guilty just because I am white. I stand up for America first, also. I think America should put America first.




We're all humans and we shouldn't put any group of humans above another group. You should have the same level of concern for people 5000 miles away from you as your own family members. Nationalism is stupid, don't fall for it.




Are you serious right now?




In fact, we shouldn't put humans above other living creatures, why should people get better treatment than a rat?  We're all the same.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: XUL]
    #25017282 - 02/23/18 09:51 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

And he wonders why people think he's racist (obviously qman's post was bad sarcasm)  :smirk:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (02/23/18 10:26 PM)

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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: qman]
    #25017315 - 02/23/18 10:11 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

XUL said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Stealth1Vampire said:
I’m sick and tired of being told to feel guilty just because I am white. I stand up for America first, also. I think America should put America first.




We're all humans and we shouldn't put any group of humans above another group. You should have the same level of concern for people 5000 miles away from you as your own family members. Nationalism is stupid, don't fall for it.




Are you serious right now?




In fact, we shouldn't put humans above other living creatures, why should people get better treatment than a rat?  We're all the same.




sure, but we're the same as rocks and dust and everything else in the universe too.
speaking of trippy shit, did you guys here about the new form of light they invented the other day?
check this shit out if you want your mind to be blown


--------------------


Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: qman]
    #25017376 - 02/23/18 10:55 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Stealth1Vampire said:
I’m sick and tired of being told to feel guilty just because I am white. I stand up for America first, also. I think America should put America first.




We're all humans and we shouldn't put any group of humans above another group. You should have the same level of concern for people 5000 miles away from you as your own family members. Nationalism is stupid, don't fall for it.




Ya know, if I take this post at face value, instead of the sarcasm I suspect it is, I fully agree with this. We are all humans, and we should be concerned for other humans and their well-being, because then we all move forward together, instead of wasting time stabbing each other.

I believe Jesus called it "Love thy neighbor". "Golden Rule", for those of you in elementary school. "Treat others as you wish to be treated". All those nice and feel-good platitudes we tell ourselves as we bomb people poorer and browner than us.

Edit:
But, alas, I believe that the title of the post can be completed as such:

Nationalism is becoming more popular...
...Jingoism is soon to follow.

Edited by Kryptos (02/23/18 11:03 PM)

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OfflineShiVersblood
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Kryptos]
    #25017408 - 02/23/18 11:23 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Niceness is a commodity, sometimes you can’t afford to be nice to people, too dangerous. It’s better to build a wall, America is already dangerous enough with the people we already have here. Can we really afford to let anymore in? If the world was a better place then I would say yes we should be nice to everyone. But that’s now how the world is. Some people if you are nice to them then they will take advantage of you.

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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: ShiVersblood] * 1
    #25017588 - 02/24/18 03:16 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

I am confused by people who say we need to put America first.

    We have always put America first.

The reason we have illegal immigrants is because business needs them. It has nothing to do with being nice.

The reason we give large amounts of foreign aid is to politically and economically influence those countries. It has nothing to do with being nice.

    People say we need to take care of the people here. We are taking care of the people here. Just the rich powerful ones.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

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OfflineShiVersblood
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Brian Jones]
    #25018146 - 02/24/18 10:14 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Buisnesses do NOT need illegal immigrants. Hiring them is against the law, they are being lazy by hiring them when they should be hiring legal citizens. They Are cutting corners and breakin the law by hiring them and we need to start cracking down on buisnesses who hire illegal immigrants and handing down more penalties to them.

Does a crack addict NEED crack? Does a bank robber NEEd to rob a bank? Does a criminal NEED to murder someone? Buisnesses do NOT need illegal immigrants, and it really makes me angry that you would think that.

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: ShiVersblood]
    #25018322 - 02/24/18 11:47 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Stealth1Vampire said:
Buisnesses do NOT need illegal immigrants. Hiring them is against the law, they are being lazy by hiring them when they should be hiring legal citizens. They Are cutting corners and breakin the law by hiring them and we need to start cracking down on buisnesses who hire illegal immigrants and handing down more penalties to them.

Does a crack addict NEED crack? Does a bank robber NEEd to rob a bank? Does a criminal NEED to murder someone? Buisnesses do NOT need illegal immigrants, and it really makes me angry that you would think that.




If you think businesses don't need illegals, you should be getting ready to drop $20 per chalupa at Taco Bell...

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OfflineXUL
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Kryptos]
    #25018326 - 02/24/18 11:49 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

Stealth1Vampire said:
Buisnesses do NOT need illegal immigrants. Hiring them is against the law, they are being lazy by hiring them when they should be hiring legal citizens. They Are cutting corners and breakin the law by hiring them and we need to start cracking down on buisnesses who hire illegal immigrants and handing down more penalties to them.

Does a crack addict NEED crack? Does a bank robber NEEd to rob a bank? Does a criminal NEED to murder someone? Buisnesses do NOT need illegal immigrants, and it really makes me angry that you would think that.




If you think businesses don't need illegals, you should be getting ready to drop $20 per chalupa at Taco Bell...





It doesn't matter if they need them. It's illegal.


--------------------
TRUMP 2020

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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: ShiVersblood]
    #25018357 - 02/24/18 12:00 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Q likes to play devil's advocate now and then

Bal, that article is imo a fluffy gee whiz piece that tries to tell us a major advance has occurred every time they see something odd. Let me just quote this for example:

"We were not sure three photons would be a stable molecule or something we could even see”

You do not make a "molecule" out of photons, so they are that challenged on basic terminology then when they start talking about light "crystals", people's eyes start to roll. And of course this will lead to quantum computers, unbreakable codes, and we will live happily ever after. :rolleyes:

We make advances every day and a few of them get massive publicity but rarely turn into anything.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755

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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Stonehenge]
    #25018422 - 02/24/18 12:27 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Here's a link to the abstract.

If you're feeling frisky, you can use sci-hub to bypass the paywall and read the full text here

shit is cool as fuck.

Quote:

The observation of the three-photon bound state, which can be viewed as photonic solitons in the quantum regime (7,8), can be extended along several different directions. First, increasing the length of the medium at constant atomic density would remove the effect of the scattering states through destructive quantum interference to larger t and would retain only the solitonic bound-state component. Additionally, the strong observed rate dependence of fð3Þ may indicate that larger photonic molecules and photonic clusters could be observed with improved detection efficiency and data-acquisition rate. Furthermore, with the use of an elliptical or larger round probe beam and careful engineering of the mass along different directions, the system can be extended to two and three dimensions, possibly permitting the observation of photonic Efimov states (32,33). Finally, our medium supports only one two- or three-photon bound state, corresponding to a nonlinear phase less than p. A threefold increase in the atomic density would render the interaction potential sufficiently deep for a second bound state to appear near zero energy,which should result in resonant photon-photon scattering and a tunable scattering length (22). The presence of large effective N-body forces inthis system opens avenues to study exotic many-body phases of light and matter, including self-organization in open quantum systems (34,35)and quantum materials that cannot be realized with conventional systems.




--------------------


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OfflineShiVersblood
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Kryptos]
    #25018431 - 02/24/18 12:30 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:






If you think businesses don't need illegals, you should be getting ready to drop $20 per chalupa at Taco Bell...




False information son. You are thinking about inflation or something. We don't need businesses to break the law in order for things to be affordable. Thats ridiculous.

Illegals being hired also hurts the illegal too because they arent being paid the right amount and are being taken advantage of.

You should never just "accept" something that is wrong because you think its easier to do so than doing whats right.

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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: ballsalsa]
    #25018438 - 02/24/18 12:32 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Yes, its an advance, we make them every day. It could turn into something interesting. What I objected to was the science writer making up stuff about light crystals which is just speculation. It sounds to me like the photons came out at the same time which was unexpected. But no light molecules or crystals.

A lot of that stuff is click bait so they make it sound as earth shaking as possible.

With fewer illegals wages will go up and people can afford more things.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: ShiVersblood] * 1
    #25018452 - 02/24/18 12:37 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

http://nhpr.org/post/us-dairy-farms-struggle-find-workers#stream/0

http://immigrationimpact.com/2017/08/14/farmers-struggle-labor-food-prices/

https://www.agweb.com/article/farmers-struggle-to-find-workers-to-expand-operations-naa-news-wire/

http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-farms-immigration/


Well, it seems like legal american workers just won't do some jobs. Can;t find the specific article, but I read the other day about some guy offering 20/hr to hire a farm hand and getting crickets from American citizens.

I know I wouldn't work 12 hour days on a farm for 20/hr. Fuck that.

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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Stonehenge]
    #25018461 - 02/24/18 12:41 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

it literally is about photons interacting to form molecule-like pairs and triads.  It's totally rad.  Humans are cool as fuck and if we can last a couple hundred more years somehow, we're actually gonna get off this planet and take over the universe.  If there is alien life out there, they should be shaking in their boots because we're gonna genocide the shit out of them when we find them.


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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: qman]
    #25018468 - 02/24/18 12:46 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Borders and citizenship are stupid, everybody should be able to go anywhere they want and use whatever social services they need for free.




Because I went backpacking to Italy and Morocco when I was 22 so I totally understand the world now, if we all just smile and hug eachother everything will be perfect.

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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Kryptos]
    #25018469 - 02/24/18 12:46 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:




I know I wouldn't work 12 hour days on a farm for 20/hr. Fuck that.




I would. In a heart beat.

In fact, I would prefer it.


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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Kryptos]
    #25018470 - 02/24/18 12:46 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
http://nhpr.org/post/us-dairy-farms-struggle-find-workers#stream/0

http://immigrationimpact.com/2017/08/14/farmers-struggle-labor-food-prices/

https://www.agweb.com/article/farmers-struggle-to-find-workers-to-expand-operations-naa-news-wire/

http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-farms-immigration/


Well, it seems like legal american workers just won't do some jobs. Can;t find the specific article, but I read the other day about some guy offering 20/hr to hire a farm hand and getting crickets from American citizens.

I know I wouldn't work 12 hour days on a farm for 20/hr. Fuck that.




Honestly, in my late teens and early 20's, I was working 12 hr days for $12 and lunch learning to be a plumber.  Doing all the monkey work like digging trenches under houses, carrying 90lb bags of plaster up stairs and shit like that.  In retrospect, I almost wish I had been doing farm work because now I want to be a farmer and commercial farm experience would satisfy that checkmark on the FSA loan application.


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Edited by ballsalsa (02/24/18 12:48 PM)

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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: ballsalsa]
    #25018481 - 02/24/18 12:50 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

>If there is alien life out there, they should be shaking in their boots because we're gonna genocide the shit out of them when we find them.

Lol maybe ants are saying the same things about us?

>it literally is about photons interacting to form molecule-like pairs and triads

They come out together, calling that a molecule is literary license but not actual fact. And crystals? lol the writer really got carried away on that. Those guys probably get paid by the click. Hopefully it will turn out to be useful

Lots of people would work for $20 an hour and work hard


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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: ballsalsa]
    #25018500 - 02/24/18 12:59 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Is NASA going to take us or somebody else?


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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: XUL]
    #25018502 - 02/24/18 12:59 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

XUL said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:




I know I wouldn't work 12 hour days on a farm for 20/hr. Fuck that.




I would. In a heart beat.

In fact, I would prefer it.




That would be fucking awesome, I work on a farm for 12$ an hour right now and because of that crazy high minimum wage and how hard it is for farms right now I barely get any hours. Many farms are forced to hire illegals and pay them below minimum just to stay afloat.

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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Stonehenge] * 1
    #25018507 - 02/24/18 01:03 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

XUL said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:




I know I wouldn't work 12 hour days on a farm for 20/hr. Fuck that.




I would. In a heart beat.

In fact, I would prefer it.




Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
http://nhpr.org/post/us-dairy-farms-struggle-find-workers#stream/0

http://immigrationimpact.com/2017/08/14/farmers-struggle-labor-food-prices/

https://www.agweb.com/article/farmers-struggle-to-find-workers-to-expand-operations-naa-news-wire/

http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-farms-immigration/


Well, it seems like legal american workers just won't do some jobs. Can;t find the specific article, but I read the other day about some guy offering 20/hr to hire a farm hand and getting crickets from American citizens.

I know I wouldn't work 12 hour days on a farm for 20/hr. Fuck that.




Honestly, in my late teens and early 20's, I was working 12 hr days for $12 and lunch learning to be a plumber.  Doing all the monkey work like digging trenches under houses, carrying 90lb bags of plaster up stairs and shit like that.  In retrospect, I almost wish I had been doing farm work because now I want to be a farmer and commercial farm experience would satisfy that checkmark on the FSA loan application.




Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Lots of people would work for $20 an hour and work hard





Everyone says they'd be happy working on a farm for wages like that, but nobody takes the job. I wonder why that is.

That's why I'm being honest and saying I'm not gonna work on a farm. I did farm work on my grandparent's dacha back in Russia. Not commercial, just a little over an acre to grow our own food. It was hard, grueling, and sucked absolute ass. I hated it, and I'm never gonna go back to that. I used to hate going to help them harvest every fall, even if the food was good.

Plus, I get paid more than double that to come up with new and exciting pills for future housewives to get addicted to.

I also like paying less than 5$ per pound of beef, and I like my sub-dollar peaches (I actually prefer nectarines, but that's beside the point), so I'm not gonna go and try to raise wages to attract more workers.

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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Kryptos]
    #25018512 - 02/24/18 01:05 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Everyone says they'd be happy working on a farm for wages like that, but nobody takes the job. I wonder why that is.




Show me the farm jobs that pay 20 dollars an hour.


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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Kryptos]
    #25018522 - 02/24/18 01:09 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

XUL said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:




I know I wouldn't work 12 hour days on a farm for 20/hr. Fuck that.




I would. In a heart beat.

In fact, I would prefer it.




Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
http://nhpr.org/post/us-dairy-farms-struggle-find-workers#stream/0

http://immigrationimpact.com/2017/08/14/farmers-struggle-labor-food-prices/

https://www.agweb.com/article/farmers-struggle-to-find-workers-to-expand-operations-naa-news-wire/

http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-farms-immigration/


Well, it seems like legal american workers just won't do some jobs. Can;t find the specific article, but I read the other day about some guy offering 20/hr to hire a farm hand and getting crickets from American citizens.

I know I wouldn't work 12 hour days on a farm for 20/hr. Fuck that.




Honestly, in my late teens and early 20's, I was working 12 hr days for $12 and lunch learning to be a plumber.  Doing all the monkey work like digging trenches under houses, carrying 90lb bags of plaster up stairs and shit like that.  In retrospect, I almost wish I had been doing farm work because now I want to be a farmer and commercial farm experience would satisfy that checkmark on the FSA loan application.




Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Lots of people would work for $20 an hour and work hard





Everyone says they'd be happy working on a farm for wages like that, but nobody takes the job. I wonder why that is.

That's why I'm being honest and saying I'm not gonna work on a farm. I did farm work on my grandparent's dacha back in Russia. Not commercial, just a little over an acre to grow our own food. It was hard, grueling, and sucked absolute ass. I hated it, and I'm never gonna go back to that. I used to hate going to help them harvest every fall, even if the food was good.

Plus, I get paid more than double that to come up with new and exciting pills for future housewives to get addicted to.

I also like paying less than 5$ per pound of beef, and I like my sub-dollar peaches (I actually prefer nectarines, but that's beside the point), so I'm not gonna go and try to raise wages to attract more workers.




The jobs are rarely advertised, farms often use h2a workers or illegals so they can pay them less and because they aren’t as whiney. I have never seen a farm labor job advertised and I live near several. Small farms are struggling and closing down due to tons of new bs regulations.

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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: XUL] * 1
    #25018531 - 02/24/18 01:15 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Small farms are struggling and shutting down because small farming is inefficient. Factory farms can produce more per acre and more per dollar and more per unit of labor.

Regulations affect big farms too, it's just that they take a smaller chunk of the income. It's like the difference between me paying rent now and me paying rent in college. Used to be 60% of my income, now it's closer to 10%. Efficiency is king.

Quote:

XUL said:
Quote:

Everyone says they'd be happy working on a farm for wages like that, but nobody takes the job. I wonder why that is.




Show me the farm jobs that pay 20 dollars an hour.




Like I said, I can't seem to find the article again, I've been looking. I believe it was for high value non-durables, however. Like wine grapes, avocados, all those other super expensive foods that people love to hate on millenials for.

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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Kryptos]
    #25018538 - 02/24/18 01:20 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

It's all getting automated soon anyway.  That used to only be for big farms, but there are all kinds of tech coming online to automate small farms.  I saw one product that was like an erector set CNC that plants, waters, and harvests.  you just move it from spot to spot.  It's all prohibitively expensive still, but that's the direction it's going.


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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Kryptos]
    #25018543 - 02/24/18 01:22 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

[/url]


Well, it seems like legal american workers just won't do some jobs. Can;t find the specific article, but I read the other day about some guy offering 20/hr to hire a farm hand and getting crickets from American citizens.

I know I wouldn't work 12 hour days on a farm for 20/hr. Fuck that.




WHAT???????/

Having brown skin does NOT make you a harder worker with a better work ethic. And thinking so, makes you just as racist as a person who thinks black people are all criminals.

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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: XUL]
    #25018549 - 02/24/18 01:24 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

XUL said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

Stealth1Vampire said:
Buisnesses do NOT need illegal immigrants. Hiring them is against the law, they are being lazy by hiring them when they should be hiring legal citizens. They Are cutting corners and breakin the law by hiring them and we need to start cracking down on buisnesses who hire illegal immigrants and handing down more penalties to them.

Does a crack addict NEED crack? Does a bank robber NEEd to rob a bank? Does a criminal NEED to murder someone? Buisnesses do NOT need illegal immigrants, and it really makes me angry that you would think that.




If you think businesses don't need illegals, you should be getting ready to drop $20 per chalupa at Taco Bell...





It doesn't matter if they need them. It's illegal.




So is weed for most people.


--------------------
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: ShiVersblood]
    #25018554 - 02/24/18 01:25 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

The high paying jobs are the ones that can't be automated. I mentioned peaches earlier for a reason-it's one of the foods that are too flimsy to be picked by autopickers.

Quote:

Stealth1Vampire said:
Quote:

[/url]


Well, it seems like legal american workers just won't do some jobs. Can;t find the specific article, but I read the other day about some guy offering 20/hr to hire a farm hand and getting crickets from American citizens.

I know I wouldn't work 12 hour days on a farm for 20/hr. Fuck that.




WHAT???????/

Having brown skin does NOT make you a harder worker with a better work ethic. And thinking so, makes you just as racist as a person who thinks black people are all criminals.




Yep, which is why I didn't say a single one of those things. You did.

I said "legal american workers just won't do some jobs". That has no bearing on American work ethic, but has a lot of bearing on how society treats certain jobs, like sewage workers, or garbage people. The "legal" part is also important, because most people will simply find a different, better, job. That's what I did.

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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Kryptos] * 5
    #25018558 - 02/24/18 01:27 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)


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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Kryptos]
    #25018561 - 02/24/18 01:28 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Yes, there are several farm commodities that have to be picked by hand.


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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #25018564 - 02/24/18 01:30 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Everything can be automated.  Hell, someone recently automated scorpion venom milking.  Give it time.


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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: ballsalsa]
    #25018570 - 02/24/18 01:32 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

I'm sure it will eventually be automated. It just can;t be with modern technology. Autopickers are nice, but they're pretty rough with the stuff they pick.

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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Kryptos]
    #25018598 - 02/24/18 01:44 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

either way, the model is changing for small farms.  There's money to be made there, but it requires a focus on reducing labor costs, choosing high value crops with quick turnover so that you can adapt to the market, and capitalizing on the premium people are willing to pay for locally grown foods, especially if you have good season extension options in your climate.  Obviously, you don't want to try to compete with the big boys on staples like potatoes or wheat, you'll get clobbered.


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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: ballsalsa]
    #25018618 - 02/24/18 01:56 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

There was a video posted recently of a tomato picking machine that gently sucked the fruit off the vine. Then it went through an automatic sorter that took out the green ones. I'm sure that could be used for peaches too.

Automation is a good thing and if they advertized those 20 an hour jobs there would be lots of takers. But those jobs don't really exist.


--------------------
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Kryptos]
    #25018625 - 02/24/18 01:59 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Small farms are struggling and shutting down because small farming is inefficient. Factory farms can produce more per acre and more per dollar and more per unit of labor.

Regulations affect big farms too, it's just that they take a smaller chunk of the income. It's like the difference between me paying rent now and me paying rent in college. Used to be 60% of my income, now it's closer to 10%. Efficiency is king.

Quote:

XUL said:
Quote:

Everyone says they'd be happy working on a farm for wages like that, but nobody takes the job. I wonder why that is.




Show me the farm jobs that pay 20 dollars an hour.




Like I said, I can't seem to find the article again, I've been looking. I believe it was for high value non-durables, however. Like wine grapes, avocados, all those other super expensive foods that people love to hate on millenials for.




If you can't find the job posting, then maybe there aren't $20/hr farm jobs.

I never heard of such a thing. I would move to another state to get 20 dollars an hour to work on a farm.

Show me jobs!


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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: XUL]
    #25018653 - 02/24/18 02:12 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

g, then maybe there aren't $20/hr farm jobs.

I never heard of such a thing. I would move to another state to get 20 dollars an hour to work on a farm.

Show me jobs!





  You can easily make over 60 an hr doing union construction in California .


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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Psilynut2]
    #25018659 - 02/24/18 02:14 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Quote:

g, then maybe there aren't $20/hr farm jobs.

I never heard of such a thing. I would move to another state to get 20 dollars an hour to work on a farm.

Show me jobs!





  You can easily make over 60 an hr doing union construction in California .




How does union construction apply to illegal immigrants?

Do uneducated and untrained immigrants do union construction?

What are the job qualifications for illegal immigrants?


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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: XUL]
    #25018675 - 02/24/18 02:18 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Fuck if I know dude , you said you would move for 20 , so I was gunna hook you up man .


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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Psilynut2]
    #25018679 - 02/24/18 02:20 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Fuck if I know dude , you said you would move for 20 , so I was gunna hook you up man .




I have no construction experience.


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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: XUL]
    #25018692 - 02/24/18 02:24 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Don’t need to , you start as an apprentice , at $ 20 and usually full benefits in 3 months . Raises every 6 . You could be an electrician , they don’t do much , your hands will stay soft .


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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Psilynut2]
    #25018703 - 02/24/18 02:29 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Don’t need to , you start as an apprentice , at $ 20 and usually full benefits in 3 months . Raises every 6 . You could be an electrician , they don’t do much , your hands will stay soft .




Well, I appreciate that.:thumbup:


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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: XUL]
    #25018718 - 02/24/18 02:35 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

I may be wrong here, but I believe there are plenty of construction jobs that require no experience besides "knows how to hold a drill and swing a hammer".

I once turned a concrete basement into a proper room with no experience. Basically just looked it up on google, and followed the building codes. 16 inch spaces between studs, proper drywall screw lengths, proper gauge wire for a 20A household power, that sort of thing.

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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Kryptos]
    #25018851 - 02/24/18 03:48 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Union jobs are hard to get, a waiting period of years is often required. Otherwise those 60 an hour jobs would get filled the first day.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Stonehenge]
    #25018882 - 02/24/18 03:59 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

that's true, unless a big project comes along that empties the halls.


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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: ballsalsa]
    #25019065 - 02/24/18 05:18 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
that's true, unless a big project comes along that empties the halls.




Then there is joy in all union hearts and a great cry goes up. "the ship has come in" they scream giddy with gladness. "this hasn't happened in 15 years"


--------------------
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Stonehenge]
    #25019085 - 02/24/18 05:30 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

pretty much


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OfflinePsilynut2
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Stonehenge]
    #25020120 - 02/25/18 06:12 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Then there is joy in all union hearts and a great cry goes up. "the ship has come in" they scream giddy with gladness. "this hasn't happened in 15 years"




  Huh ? I’ve been doing this shit for 15 years . The only waiting list I know of is for operating engineers , they drive heavy equipment , or elevators , make way more and get to sit on their ass all day .  Thats just human nature people are lazy they want the easy shit . You will have a hard time getting a construction job that doesn’t require much physical effort , your kinda right.
    You could be a carpenter , electrician , laborer or whatever else without a waiting list it’s easy .  If you can get up early and work hard .

Tell  you what , you keep making fun of my career choice , and I’ll tell you about the 911 I just got and insanely wide tires that cost 300+ a piece .


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InvisibleAsclepius
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: XUL]
    #25020235 - 02/25/18 08:11 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

XUL said:
The idea that a country should have pride in their culture, have borders, and keep low levels of immigration. It seems like people are fed up with the open border one world order.

Poland has more conservative politicians.

The United Kingdom has voted to leave the European Union.

America is celebrating its roots, building borders, and focusing on the average Joe.







One can have pride in their culture and still be accepting of cultural differences.  The problem with “nationalism” is the tendency of its proponents to judge others' cultures through the lens of ethnocentrism, which is actually racial nationalism.  Furthermore, appeal to “nationalism” does not impress me: many dictators garnered support from the masses, yet their depravity has been judged by history, for example.  If the leadership of a country, and I mean any country, believe that improving the infrastructure of their nation and being disparaging to foreigners is mutually inclusive, it's self-evident their specious use of the term "nationalism" is cover for some other devious agenda. 


Sadly, if one looks at historical trends of dictatorial regimes of the 20th century, so-called “nationalism” served to embolden dictators to commit heinous acts.  Does that mean their logic was correct, simply because they had majority support?  I don’t think it does.  At the same time, that is not to draw comparisons of Poland, the United Kingdom, or the Unites States to Nazi Germany.  Hitler’s actions were far, far worse than any legislation that has been proposed, or carried out, by the current leadership of the countries listed.  However, if the leadership of a country truly cares about the average Joe, they would run off a populist agenda, and not a “nationalist” one.  Am I mistaken to think you are conflating the two ideologies?  The former gives voice to those who are essentially disenfranchised: in this case, that would be minorities, foreigners, and the working poor.  Where is their voice in Trump’s agenda, not to mention Poland or the U.K.?  If any government claims that cultural exclusion is the solution to their nation’s woes, their citizens have cause to be worried about their government.  I personally see “nationalism” as nothing more than a form of scapegoating for the wealthy elite – and the elite fucking love it!


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Offlineqman
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Asclepius]
    #25020287 - 02/25/18 08:55 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Asclepius said:
Quote:

XUL said:
The idea that a country should have pride in their culture, have borders, and keep low levels of immigration. It seems like people are fed up with the open border one world order.

Poland has more conservative politicians.

The United Kingdom has voted to leave the European Union.

America is celebrating its roots, building borders, and focusing on the average Joe.







One can have pride in their culture and still be accepting of cultural differences.  The problem with “nationalism” is the tendency of its proponents to judge others' cultures through the lens of ethnocentrism, which is actually racial nationalism.  Furthermore, appeal to “nationalism” does not impress me: many dictators garnered support from the masses, yet their depravity has been judged by history, for example.  If the leadership of a country, and I mean any country, believe that improving the infrastructure of their nation and being disparaging to foreigners is mutually inclusive, it's self-evident their specious use of the term "nationalism" is cover for some other devious agenda. 


Sadly, if one looks at historical trends of dictatorial regimes of the 20th century, so-called “nationalism” served to embolden dictators to commit heinous acts.  Does that mean their logic was correct, simply because they had majority support?  I don’t think it does.  At the same time, that is not to draw comparisons of Poland, the United Kingdom, or the Unites States to Nazi Germany.  Hitler’s actions were far, far worse than any legislation that has been proposed, or carried out, by the current leadership of the countries listed.  However, if the leadership of a country truly cares about the average Joe, they would run off a populist agenda, and not a “nationalist” one.  Am I mistaken to think you are conflating the two ideologies?  The former gives voice to those who are essentially disenfranchised: in this case, that would be minorities, foreigners, and the working poor.  Where is their voice in Trump’s agenda, not to mention Poland or the U.K.?  If any government claims that cultural exclusion is the solution to their nation’s woes, their citizens have cause to be worried about their government.  I personally see “nationalism” as nothing more than a form of scapegoating for the wealthy elite – and the elite fucking love it!




No, the elite are globalists that hate nationalism. Please show us why the elite would want limits on immigration?  What about economic tariffs? 

You do realize that nationalism includes ALL citizens, not just people in the majority?  Minorities, working poor and gays are all welcome, but unfortunately too many hate their own country today.

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OfflineXUL
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Asclepius]
    #25020294 - 02/25/18 09:00 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

I think you are trying to conflate nationalism and racism.

Quote:

The problem with “nationalism” is the tendency of its proponents to judge others' cultures through the lens of ethnocentrism, which is actually racial nationalism.




I don't buy that.

If you are a legal citizen, then you are American.

Remember that America's history is full of movements to free the oppressed. e.g. Abolishing slavery and women's rights. Things are only getting better.

Quote:

Where is their voice in Trump’s agenda, not to mention Poland or the U.K.?




Here is Nigel Farage at CPAC 2018 hailing Trump and taking similar stances in politics.

Keep in mind that Nigel's initial support was very small, but he convinced people that taking the country back was worth it.

"Mr Farage helped turn UKIP from a fringe force to the third biggest party in UK politics in terms of votes at the 2015 general election, and he helped persuade more than 17 million people to vote to leave the EU."
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36701855



Quote:

If any government claims that cultural exclusion is the solution to their nation’s woes, their citizens have cause to be worried about their government.




Like I said before, there is no cultural exclusion. I don't know where you are getting that from.

And I am worried about the government. Namely the FBI.


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TRUMP 2020

Edited by XUL (02/25/18 09:02 AM)

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OfflinePsilynut2
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: XUL]
    #25020334 - 02/25/18 09:26 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Only criminals worry about the fbi .


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Offlineqman
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Kryptos]
    #25020461 - 02/25/18 10:27 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Stealth1Vampire said:
I’m sick and tired of being told to feel guilty just because I am white. I stand up for America first, also. I think America should put America first.




We're all humans and we shouldn't put any group of humans above another group. You should have the same level of concern for people 5000 miles away from you as your own family members. Nationalism is stupid, don't fall for it.




Ya know, if I take this post at face value, instead of the sarcasm I suspect it is, I fully agree with this. We are all humans, and we should be concerned for other humans and their well-being, because then we all move forward together, instead of wasting time stabbing each other.

I believe Jesus called it "Love thy neighbor". "Golden Rule", for those of you in elementary school. "Treat others as you wish to be treated". All those nice and feel-good platitudes we tell ourselves as we bomb people poorer and browner than us.
.




"We are all humans, and we should be concerned for other humans and their well-being"

Sure that's all wonderful and everything, but resources are limited. When are you going to give up your resources and give it away to those without it? 

"we bomb people browner and poorer than us"

Wow, that's some real insightful analysis of geopolitics and economics there, please give us more of how the world works. :facepalm:

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InvisibleAsclepius
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: qman]
    #25020642 - 02/25/18 11:45 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

qman said:

No, the elite are globalists that hate nationalism. Please show us why the elite would want limits on immigration?  What about economic tariffs? 

You do realize that nationalism includes ALL citizens, not just people in the majority?  Minorities, working poor and gays are all welcome, but unfortunately too many hate their own country today.








Q, limits on immigration?!  Please!  What about Average Americans working for slave wages?  How many politicians are "tough on immigration" but don't propose raising working wages for Americans?  But they are for so-called "nationalism?!"  Nope.  They use immigrants as a scapegoat for the country's woes, under the guise of "nationalism."  It's all about using propaganda to exploit the fears and worries of the people and employing misdirection by blaming the "other" – or, in this case, immigrants.  I never stated that elites were for, or against, nationalism; the elites are for crony capitalism and anything that serves their purpose.  In other words:




“It is we elite who make the rules, so that we may exploit the average person for our profits, and we need someone else to blame when the public becomes angry with their working and living conditions.  Did I say ‘public?’  We can make those filthy peasants believe that poor immigrants are the ones ruining the economy for everyone else.  Let’s start a campaign where we repeat the words nationalism, patriotic, national pride, terrorists, and immigrants, numerous times… That’ll work well in our favor!  We’ll have the peasants convinced the foreigners are coming for their jobs, their homes, their families and their very lives!  What they don’t realize is that such a movement is devoid of policy that will provide any beneficial economic change; however, it distracts the peasants from uniting against their true oppressors: us!  Through this divisive campaign – that we shall simply brand ‘nationalism’ –  we can watch the peasants fight against the most disenfranchised amongst them, while we continue to reap profits off the sweat of their backs!”     





I put the word "nationalism" in quotations for a reason: what many people see as nationalism is nothing more than a divisive tool.  If policies are geared toward helping minorities, the working poor, gay people, and immigrants, that would not be nationalism but populism insofar as American politics are concerned.  If a government proposes legislation that is culturally exclusive, such as the current White House administration, that is ethnocentrism disguised as nationalism.  You personally acknowledge that there is a problem with the global elite – e.g., those who run corporations and influence our politicians –  so why aren’t you leading the charge against them instead?  Poor, hardworking immigrants are not the enemy.




Q, you and I agree that it is the elite who are the problem.  If you want to discuss that – corporations and their influence over our politicians – I am right there with you.  I will not, however, blame immigrants for our country’s woes.  I don’t hate this country, but that doesn’t mean I should not acknowledge its problems.  Where you and I disagree is on the solution to rectifying our country’s problems.  Nationalism is not the answer.


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A society governed in terms of double standards is self-destructive



Edited by Asclepius (02/25/18 11:57 AM)

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InvisibleAsclepius
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: XUL]
    #25020696 - 02/25/18 12:08 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Nigel Farage.  LOL!  No love for Jeremy Corbyn?


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Offlineqman
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Asclepius]
    #25020713 - 02/25/18 12:14 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

So and I can't take issue with the global elite and immigration policies at the same time?  BOTH affect US citizens negatively.

Other than Trump, who else is promoting nationalism and addressing the issues with immigration?  The last I looked, EVERY Republican who ran against Trump was pro-immigration in every facet and every Democrat is over the top for immigration.

So I ask again, who is "scapegoating" immigrants for problems other than Trump? 

Whether you like it or not, immigration into the US is to benefit the elite at the expense of the other 99% of the population, they didn't invite my Polish ancestors into the US over 100 years ago to be nice, it's always about the money.

There is no "campaign" to promote nationalism, it's forming on the ground floor because of the current circumstances.

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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: qman] * 1
    #25020732 - 02/25/18 12:20 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

qman said:

Other than Trump, who else is promoting nationalism and addressing the issues with immigration? 
So I ask again, who is "scapegoating" immigrants for problems other than Trump? 

Whether you like it or not, immigration into the US is to benefit the elite at the expense of the other 99% of the population...








At least you admit your beliefs.  I can't say I agree with you, however.  Q, immigrants are not the problem.  You and I will have to disagree.


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A society governed in terms of double standards is self-destructive



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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: qman] * 1
    #25020747 - 02/25/18 12:26 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

>Whether you like it or not, immigration into the US is to benefit the elite at the expense of the other 99% of the population

Of course, its so obvious only the far left can't see it. They tell us with a straight face that the law of supply and demand has been repealed or that it doesn't apply to jobs and wages. When there are more looking for work than there are jobs, employers have no incentive to raise wages and they don't. Don't give me any bull about official unemployment figures, that has been falsified for years and only gets worse. Labor force participation is at the lowest rate ever and the number not working is the highest ever

Crime has gone way up in europe along with immigration and all the deflection in the world by the usual suspects does not change that fact. The news media has been ordered by govt not to report on immigrant crime and/or voluntarily don't report or make efforts to conceal the nationality of the suspects

Its sad when the oppressed (workers) are on the side of the oppressors (elite). You would think self interest would lead them to the truth but instead they gobble up propaganda and ignore facts. They constantly deflect with bs about how we meddled in their country so we have to support their bum and criminals here. The elites supported the meddling same as they support cheap labor.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Stonehenge]
    #25020816 - 02/25/18 12:52 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

The left needs a fresh influx of new voters after the terrible debacle that was the 2016 election, they lost all credibility and have been scrambling to shift the blame and bring in left voting immigrants/illegals ever since.

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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Asclepius]
    #25020860 - 02/25/18 01:08 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Asclepius said:
Quote:

qman said:

Other than Trump, who else is promoting nationalism and addressing the issues with immigration? 
So I ask again, who is "scapegoating" immigrants for problems other than Trump? 

Whether you like it or not, immigration into the US is to benefit the elite at the expense of the other 99% of the population...








At least you admit your beliefs.  I can't say I agree with you, however.  Q, immigrants are not the problem.  You and I will have to disagree.




"immigrants are not the problem"

Of course they are, the only time immigrants aren't a problem is when there's a big shortage of labor?  Does the US/EU have that issue today?  NO.

Immigrants lower wages and take jobs away from native citizens, they also use social services which takes away from US citizens.

The elite are in favor of immigration to benefit themselves at the expense of the 99%, why do you join forces with them on this issue?  They want higher profit margins, what's your excuse?

My Polish ancestors undercut the wages of the natives in the US BIGTIME, it's called the law of supply and demand.  The only thing my ancestors didn't do was ring up the free social services, there were no handouts like today.

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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: qman]
    #25020880 - 02/25/18 01:19 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Where will we get farm labor from if we kick them all out ?


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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Psilynut2]
    #25020909 - 02/25/18 01:33 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Where will we get farm labor from if we kick them all out ?




There's plenty of young strong unemployed US citizens.

www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/mar/10/bernie-s/bernie-sanders-statistic-black-hispanic-unemployme/

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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Psilynut2]
    #25020910 - 02/25/18 01:33 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Where will we get farm labor from if we kick them all out ?




We have plenty of useless millenials with environmental science, womens studies, and graphic design degrees, a little manual labor would do them good. Also there are plenty of Americans who would be willing to do farm work if the jobs were actually advertised.

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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: xzylocybin]
    #25021084 - 02/25/18 02:35 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

when stabbing my eyes out becomes more popular let the mexicans do the shitty farm work for 3 bucks an hour while I compete with my spouse

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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: xzylocybin]
    #25021340 - 02/25/18 04:53 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

>We have plenty of useless millenials with ... womens studies degrees

I've met some, a young woman who had a bachelors in it and was going for masters and phd. I asked what job that would lead to and she said director of a rape crisis center. In the real world it might get her a job as one of the councilors, then after years she maybe would be in the running for director. But would be competing against many others with similar credentials for the same position. Sounded like a waste of time to me, going for that degree. Its not like it will carry over to another field very well if no jobs in rape centers.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Stonehenge] * 1
    #25021505 - 02/25/18 05:53 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

konyap said
when stabbing my eyes out becomes more popular let the mexicans do the shitty farm work for 3 bucks an hour




That’s what Qman said . So y’all s plan is not my white ass and basically anyone who isn’t white . 

Quote:

qman said
There's plenty of young strong unemployed US citizens.

www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/mar/10/bernie-s/bernie-sanders-statistic-black-hispanic-unemployme/





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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: xzylocybin]
    #25021535 - 02/25/18 06:03 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:



We have plenty of useless millenials with environmental science, womens studies, and graphic design degrees, a little manual labor would do them good. Also there are plenty of Americans who would be willing to do farm work if the jobs were actually advertised.






  I would prefer envirmental scientists stick to that , I like clean air .
  Americans don’t show up farm jobs period , not even for more money what your saying bullshit , California farmers have been trying to atract legal workers for decades .



http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-farms-immigration/

“”””
Wages rise on California farms. Americans still don’t want the job
Trump’s immigration crackdown is supposed to help U.S. citizens. For California farmers, it’s worsening a desperate labor shortage“””””


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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Psilynut2]
    #25021594 - 02/25/18 06:31 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Quote:



We have plenty of useless millenials with environmental science, womens studies, and graphic design degrees, a little manual labor would do them good. Also there are plenty of Americans who would be willing to do farm work if the jobs were actually advertised.






  I would prefer envirmental scientists stick to that , I like clean air .
  Americans don’t show up farm jobs period , not even for more money what your saying bullshit , California farmers have been trying to attract legal workers for decades .



http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-farms-immigration/

“”””
Wages rise on California farms. Americans still don’t want the job
Trump’s immigration crackdown is supposed to help U.S. citizens. For California farmers, it’s worsening a desperate labor shortage“””””




Why do you have issue with US citizens making a livable wage and some benefits?

Do you know what employers do to attract workers? Offer more money until the positions are filled, why is that problematic in your mind?

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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: qman]
    #25021822 - 02/25/18 07:58 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

their shithole country

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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Asclepius] * 1
    #25022012 - 02/25/18 09:39 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Asclepius said:
Q, immigrants are not the problem.  You and I will have to disagree.



Ask him for evidence that immigrants are a problem.  :smirk:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: qman]
    #25022803 - 02/26/18 08:35 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


Why do you have issue with US citizens making a livable wage and some benefits?

Do you know what employers do to attract workers? Offer more money until the positions are filled, why is that problematic in your mind?




Didn’t say that , I just expected you to proudly say white people will gladly step up and do these jobs ! Thought that’s what nationalism was all about . Thought white america was struggling and needed these jobs that have been stolen by legal Latinos relatives .
 
No my issue is clearly they are already offering more money and it isn’t working . That’s what the la times thing I posted is about .


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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25022810 - 02/26/18 08:40 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/law-of-supply-demand.asp

www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/05/03/key-findings-about-u-s-immigrants/

"more than 40 million people living in the U.S. were born in another country...Immigrants today account for 13.4% of the U.S. population, nearly triple the share (4.7%) in 1970."

www.epi.org/publication/charting-wage-stagnation/

And real wages crashing since the 1970's.

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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: qman]
    #25022944 - 02/26/18 09:57 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Did you post all of that to try to make me forget American citizens aren’t showing up for these jobs , despite the increase in pay ?


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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Psilynut2]
    #25022947 - 02/26/18 10:00 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

I think his point was in part that pay has not gone up its gone down factoring inflation


--------------------
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Stonehenge] * 1
    #25022979 - 02/26/18 10:18 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Good point , so how much money would it take for you to work on a farm in ca 20 ? 30 ?  Last time I checked they have a union .

The point im making  is that we aren’t going to replace these illegal workers without putting farmers out of buisiness or making the price of food unaffordable for the struggling Americans your tryin to help .
  I’ll be able afford it , what about you ? Seems to me you might be shooting yourself in the dick here .


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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Stonehenge]
    #25022980 - 02/26/18 10:18 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
I think his point was in part that pay has not gone up its gone down factoring inflation





And is it the fault of immigrants that corporations choose not to pay American citizens a fair wage?  Immigrants don't have the power to raise wages for Americans, corporations do.  The problem of unemployment in America boils down to greed.


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Edited by Asclepius (02/26/18 10:19 AM)

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Offlineqman
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Psilynut2]
    #25022990 - 02/26/18 10:22 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Did you post all of that to try to make me forget American citizens aren’t showing up for these jobs , despite the increase in pay ?




"despite the increase in pay"

So again, why do you find it problematic US citizens are paid a higher wage?  It's simple economics, pay more to attract workers.

Why is that such a difficult concept to understand?

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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Asclepius]
    #25023003 - 02/26/18 10:26 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Asclepius said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:
I think his point was in part that pay has not gone up its gone down factoring inflation





And is it the fault of immigrants that corporations choose not to pay American citizens a fair wage?  Immigrants don't have the power to raise wages for Americans, corporations do.  The problem of unemployment in America boils down to greed.




This line of reasoning doesn't make any sense, it has nothing to do with "corporations choose not to pay Americans a fair wage"?   

Corporations NEVER want to pay anymore than they have to, why don't you understand this basic concept?  Why did they pay more in real terms during the 1950's to 1980's instead of today?  Did they just get meaner. :lol:

"boils down to greed"

Of course it does, why do you think corporate America bribes the politicians to have large amounts of legal and illegal immigration?

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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Psilynut2]
    #25023023 - 02/26/18 10:32 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Good point , so how much money would it take for you to work on a farm in ca 20 ? 30 ?  Last time I checked they have a union .

The point im making  is that we aren’t going to replace these illegal workers without putting farmers out of business or making the price of food unaffordable for the struggling Americans your tryin to help .
  I’ll be able afford it , what about you ? Seems to me you might be shooting yourself in the dick here .




"putting farmers out of business"

Are you just pulling this out of your ass?  You do realize profit margins can go lower and businesses still make great profits? 

"making the price of food un-affordable"

Another pull it out of your ass statement, in many cases labor is a very small percentage of food production. Hiking wages 25% would hardly make any difference in the price of food, never mind making it "un-affordable". :facepalm:

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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: qman] * 1
    #25023489 - 02/26/18 11:23 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


"despite the increase in pay"

So again, why do you find it problematic US citizens are paid a higher wage?  It's simple economics, pay more to attract workers.

Why is that such a difficult concept to understand?



 
Once again I never made that claim , I said it isn’t working  , it’s never gunna happen , and I showed you evidence that you seem unwilling to accept . 


Quote:




"putting farmers out of business"

Are you just pulling this out of your ass?  You do realize profit margins can go lower and businesses still make great profits? 

"making the price of food un-affordable"

Another pull it out of your ass statement, in many cases labor is a very small percentage of food production. Hiking wages 25% would hardly make any difference in the price of food, never mind making it "un-affordable




25 % more than what they are currently making is enough to atract legal workers ?  That’s seems even more ridiculous than farm owners can just shit 25 % more out of their ass . Farm labor for labor intensive crops accounts for 40 %
 
https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/farm-economy/farm-labor/


Quote:

iable farm costs and as much as 40 percent of costs in labor-intensive crops such as fruit, vegetables, and nursery products. ERS conducts research on a range of farm labor issues, including:




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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Psilynut2]
    #25023519 - 02/26/18 11:41 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Quote:


"despite the increase in pay"

So again, why do you find it problematic US citizens are paid a higher wage?  It's simple economics, pay more to attract workers.

Why is that such a difficult concept to understand?



 
Once again I never made that claim , I said it isn’t working  , it’s never gunna happen , and I showed you evidence that you seem unwilling to accept . 


Quote:




"putting farmers out of business"

Are you just pulling this out of your ass?  You do realize profit margins can go lower and businesses still make great profits? 

"making the price of food un-affordable"

Another pull it out of your ass statement, in many cases labor is a very small percentage of food production. Hiking wages 25% would hardly make any difference in the price of food, never mind making it "un-affordable




25 % more than what they are currently making is enough to atract legal workers ?  That’s seems even more ridiculous than farm owners can just shit 25 % more out of their ass . Farm labor for labor intensive crops accounts for 40 %
 
https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/farm-economy/farm-labor/


Quote:

iable farm costs and as much as 40 percent of costs in labor-intensive crops such as fruit, vegetables, and nursery products. ERS conducts research on a range of farm labor issues, including:







https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/08/17/could-farms-survive-without-illegal-labor/the-costs-and-benefits-of-a-raise-for-field-workers


"If farm labor wages rose 40 percent, and this wage increase were passed on to consumers, average spending on fresh fruits and vegetables would rise about $15 per year"

The horror, $15 per year. :mindblown:

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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Psilynut2]
    #25023622 - 02/26/18 12:23 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

>Good point , so how much money would it take for you to work on a farm in ca 20 ? 30 ?  Last time I checked they have a union .

I wouldn't do it for $100 per hour but loads of people would do it for 20.

>The point im making  is that we aren’t going to replace these illegal workers without putting farmers out of buisiness or making the price of food unaffordable for the struggling Americans your tryin to help .

False, q already showed how it makes little difference. Farmers simply pass along the costs and produce goes up slightly. Retailers and middlemen make most of the money on that. If they actually offered 20 per hour or close to it you would see a line of people wanting the jobs. For min wage forget it.

> I’ll be able afford it , what about you ? Seems to me you might be shooting yourself in the dick here

Lol, yeah a few bucks will send me to the poor house for sure.


--------------------
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: qman]
    #25023644 - 02/26/18 12:33 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

qman said:

"boils down to greed"

Of course it does, why do you think corporate America bribes the politicians to have large amounts of legal and illegal immigration?





Right.  So why not focus on addressing the problem of corporations, rather than focusing on immigrants?  Even if America sees no more immigrants entering the country, corporations are still going to pay the majority of their employees sub-par wages.  What is it about this conversation that you do not get?


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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Asclepius] * 3
    #25023680 - 02/26/18 12:53 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

He gets it fine. But rationalizes the racism with some variation of "well theres nothing to be done about corporate power, so we might as well stick to problems we can easily solve (like finding and deporting 20 million people, and walling off 10,000 miles of border)."


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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: qman] * 1
    #25023715 - 02/26/18 01:07 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

qman said
"If farm labor wages rose 40 percent, and this wage increase were passed on to consumers, average spending on fresh fruits and vegetables would rise about $15 per year"

The horror, $15 per year




  From your article
“” 
If the influx of immigrant workers were slowed or stopped and farm wages rose, what would happen to expenditures on fresh fruits and vegetables? A case study from 1966 could give us some idea. “”

Nothing assures me more about the future of our economy than case studies from the 60’s that could give us some ideas . That’s fuckin rock solid evidence right there . You win .


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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Asclepius]
    #25023755 - 02/26/18 01:26 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Asclepius said:
Quote:

qman said:

"boils down to greed"

Of course it does, why do you think corporate America bribes the politicians to have large amounts of legal and illegal immigration?





Right.  So why not focus on addressing the problem of corporations, rather than focusing on immigrants?  Even if America sees no more immigrants entering the country, corporations are still going to pay the majority of their employees sub-par wages.  What is it about this conversation that you do not get?




"Even if America see no more immigrants entering the country, corporations are still going to pay the majority of their employees sub-par wages"

That may very well be true, with that being said, why would you want to make the problem even worse with more competition from immigrants?

"focus on addressing the problem of corporations"

What's the problem, they pay the lowest wage possible, what would change that reality?

"focusing on immigrants"

Immigrants enable the corporations to pay lower wages. That's why they bribe our politicians to maintain steady levels of immigration. 

"What is it about this conversation that you do not get?"

I don't think you understand that you're on the same side of the corporations and I'm on the side of the native workers. But by all means, keep bringing in more immigrants and I keep profiting from owning the shares in those companies that benefit from it.

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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #25023759 - 02/26/18 01:28 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
He gets it fine. But rationalizes the racism with some variation of "well theres nothing to be done about corporate power, so we might as well stick to problems we can easily solve (like finding and deporting 20 million people, and walling off 10,000 miles of border)."




"But rationalizes the racism"

I don't care where they immigrants come from, we don't need them. That includes Poland.

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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Psilynut2]
    #25023790 - 02/26/18 01:33 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Quote:

qman said
"If farm labor wages rose 40 percent, and this wage increase were passed on to consumers, average spending on fresh fruits and vegetables would rise about $15 per year"

The horror, $15 per year




  From your article
“” 
If the influx of immigrant workers were slowed or stopped and farm wages rose, what would happen to expenditures on fresh fruits and vegetables? A case study from 1966 could give us some idea. “”

Nothing assures me more about the future of our economy than case studies from the 60’s that could give us some ideas . That’s fuckin rock solid evidence right there . You win .




The passing on of labor expenses to the cost of a product is a very simple equation, the sample of it occurring in the 60's only confirms that basic equation.

It's like Wal-mart hiking wages for its workers, it only takes 2 minutes to figure out how it would effect the bottom line, it's not rocket science.

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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: qman] * 2
    #25023894 - 02/26/18 01:37 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
He gets it fine. But rationalizes the racism with some variation of "well theres nothing to be done about corporate power, so we might as well stick to problems we can easily solve (like finding and deporting 20 million people, and walling off 10,000 miles of border)."




"But rationalizes the racism"

I don't care where they immigrants come from, we don't need them. That includes Poland.




Fine, nationalism then.


And the free market would disagree.


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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #25023981 - 02/26/18 02:03 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
He gets it fine. But rationalizes the racism with some variation of "well theres nothing to be done about corporate power, so we might as well stick to problems we can easily solve (like finding and deporting 20 million people, and walling off 10,000 miles of border)."




"But rationalizes the racism"

I don't care where they immigrants come from, we don't need them. That includes Poland.




Fine, nationalism then.


And the free market would disagree.




I don't care about the current "market" and there's nothing "free" about it.

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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: qman]
    #25023999 - 02/26/18 02:08 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah we regulate labor with borders its total bullshit


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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Asclepius] * 2
    #25024598 - 02/26/18 06:15 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Asclepius said:
Quote:

qman said:

"boils down to greed"

Of course it does, why do you think corporate America bribes the politicians to have large amounts of legal and illegal immigration?





Right.  So why not focus on addressing the problem of corporations, rather than focusing on immigrants?  Even if America sees no more immigrants entering the country, corporations are still going to pay the majority of their employees sub-par wages.  What is it about this conversation that you do not get?




The problem of corps is the problem of bribery and getting favorable laws passed. You can not bully them into paying more than they want to, you can only change the marketplace so that labor becomes more expensive. Then they pay more because they have to, not because some city said the min is 15.

The reason people focus on immigrants is because they are cheap labor. Why would you expect a big corp or even a small business to pay more than people are willing to work for? If your yard guy wants $30 to cut the lawn and it takes him 40 minutes, do you say no please let me give you $50 even though I can find a dozen people to do it for 30? No, you pay the going rate same as anybody else unless you like the yard guy a whole bunch. If the grocery store wants $40 for a bag of your groceries do you tip the company $20?

Now that we've settled that, why do you think having loads of cheap labor does not depress wages?


--------------------
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: qman] * 2
    #25025015 - 02/26/18 09:37 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Corporations NEVER want to pay anymore than they have to, why don't you understand this basic concept?  Why did they pay more in real terms during the 1950's to 1980's instead of today?  Did they just get meaner. :lol:



No, for maybe the 50th time, it's because they didn't have to negotiate with labor unions.  You don't believe it?  Here's the evidence for the 50th time:



That's a bit too strong a correlation to be random coincidence.


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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: qman]
    #25025055 - 02/26/18 09:55 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

qman said:
https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/08/17/could-farms-survive-without-illegal-labor/the-costs-and-benefits-of-a-raise-for-field-workers


"If farm labor wages rose 40 percent, and this wage increase were passed on to consumers, average spending on fresh fruits and vegetables would rise about $15 per year"

The horror, $15 per year. :mindblown:



That IS a bit mind blowing.  I'm a little suspicious.  From the article:

    "For a typical household, a 40 percent increase in farm labor costs translates into a 3.6 percent increase in retail prices."

I agree with this so far, as that's consistent with past empirical studies.  But the article goes on to say:

    "If farm wages rose 40 percent, and this wage increase were passed on to consumers, average spending on fresh fruits and vegetables would rise about $15 a year"

Hmmm, that's a little deceptive, as farm costs go into a lot more than just fresh fruits and vegetables.

Regardless, I believe your greater point that we can afford a 40 percent increase in farm labor costs is valid.


--------------------
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25025138 - 02/26/18 10:52 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/08/17/could-farms-survive-without-illegal-labor/the-costs-and-benefits-of-a-raise-for-field-workers


"If farm labor wages rose 40 percent, and this wage increase were passed on to consumers, average spending on fresh fruits and vegetables would rise about $15 per year"

The horror, $15 per year. :mindblown:



That IS a bit mind blowing.  I'm a little suspicious.  From the article:

    "For a typical household, a 40 percent increase in farm labor costs translates into a 3.6 percent increase in retail prices."

I agree with this so far, as that's consistent with past empirical studies.  But the article goes on to say:

    "If farm wages rose 40 percent, and this wage increase were passed on to consumers, average spending on fresh fruits and vegetables would rise about $15 a year"

Hmmm, that's a little deceptive, as farm costs go into a lot more than just fresh fruits and vegetables.

Regardless, I believe your greater point that we can afford a 40 percent increase in farm labor costs is valid.




It is valid.  It's valid across the board at minimum and low wage positions probably.  It doesn't matter because people are too shortsighted to see past the bargain on the shelf.


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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25025759 - 02/27/18 08:32 AM (6 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
Corporations NEVER want to pay anymore than they have to, why don't you understand this basic concept?  Why did they pay more in real terms during the 1950's to 1980's instead of today?  Did they just get meaner. :lol:



No, for maybe the 50th time, it's because they didn't have to negotiate with labor unions.  You don't believe it?  Here's the evidence for the 50th time:



That's a bit too strong a correlation to be random coincidence.




And where did I state lower union membership wasn't a factor in the drop in real wages?  Less union membership is a contributing factor, as are more workers relative to demand.

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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: qman] * 3
    #25025828 - 02/27/18 09:00 AM (6 years, 30 days ago)

Again, no sense of proportionality whatsoever.


You admit fal is right, dismiss his point on the basis that you never explicitly disagreed with it, and then pivot right back to your bullshit narrative about how immigrants should be the main focus.


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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #25025873 - 02/27/18 09:27 AM (6 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Again, no sense of proportionality whatsoever.


You admit fal is right, dismiss his point on the basis that you never explicitly disagreed with it, and then pivot right back to your bullshit narrative about how immigrants should be the main focus.




"dismiss his point"

Not at all, union membership has dropped because manufacturing jobs got sent out of the US, I have always acknowledged this reality. :shrug:

"pivot right back to...immigrants should be the main focus"

No, not the "main focus", but a focus. That's why we have borders and citizenship in the first place.

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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: qman] * 3
    #25025921 - 02/27/18 09:52 AM (6 years, 30 days ago)

Union membership has dropped due to a concerted effort to crush unions.

We can still have unions in sectors besides manufacturing.


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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #25026008 - 02/27/18 10:29 AM (6 years, 30 days ago)

yeah it's not because of the very focused efforts by the right in the US to squash collective bargaining; it's because jobs in the manufacturing sector have decreased.

there's the arguing in bad faith that you, fal, shiva and others have cited examples of repeatedly, especially recently.  it's a very small example and a tangent to a discussion at that, but it's an example nonetheless.

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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #25026066 - 02/27/18 11:00 AM (6 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Union membership has dropped due to a concerted effort to crush unions.

We can still have unions in sectors besides manufacturing.




"due to a concerted effort to crush unions"

It's more complicated than that generalization.

And yes we do have unions outside of the manufacturing sector, what's your point?

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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: relic]
    #25026089 - 02/27/18 11:14 AM (6 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

relic said:
yeah it's not because of the very focused efforts by the right in the US to squash collective bargaining; it's because jobs in the manufacturing sector have decreased.

there's the arguing in bad faith that you, fal, shiva and others have cited examples of repeatedly, especially recently.  it's a very small example and a tangent to a discussion at that, but it's an example nonetheless.




So it's "arguing in bad faith" to acknowledge the loss of manufacturing jobs? :facepalm:

"cited examples"

Like how the US lost 5 million manufacturing jobs in less than two decades?  I think you're confused on what has been cited because you're biased on the subject matter.

www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/07/25/most-americans-unaware-that-as-u-s-manufacturing-jobs-have-disappeared-output-has-grown/

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: qman] * 2
    #25026130 - 02/27/18 11:36 AM (6 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Union membership has dropped due to a concerted effort to crush unions.

We can still have unions in sectors besides manufacturing.




"due to a concerted effort to crush unions"

It's more complicated than that generalization.

And yes we do have unions outside of the manufacturing sector, what's your point?




You're the one generalizing, not me.

My point was plainly obvious to anyone who sincerely wanted to understand it.


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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: qman]
    #25026180 - 02/27/18 11:59 AM (6 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

qman said:
And where did I state lower union membership wasn't a factor in the drop in real wages?  Less union membership is a contributing factor, as are more workers relative to demand.



We can clearly see that higher union membership is correlated to higher wages.  But I'm still waiting for your evidence to show correlation between wages and unemployment in a non-union environment.

Here's what's been previously shown for starters.



Maybe you can post some evidence that's a little more convincing to your argument?  As an scientist (engineer) by degree, I believe in real world empirical evidence over theory when the two aren't aligned.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Invisiblerelic
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: qman] * 5
    #25026211 - 02/27/18 12:17 PM (6 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

relic said:
yeah it's not because of the very focused efforts by the right in the US to squash collective bargaining; it's because jobs in the manufacturing sector have decreased.

there's the arguing in bad faith that you, fal, shiva and others have cited examples of repeatedly, especially recently.  it's a very small example and a tangent to a discussion at that, but it's an example nonetheless.




So it's "arguing in bad faith" to acknowledge the loss of manufacturing jobs? :facepalm:

"cited examples"

Like how the US lost 5 million manufacturing jobs in less than two decades?  I think you're confused on what has been cited because you're biased on the subject matter.

www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/07/25/most-americans-unaware-that-as-u-s-manufacturing-jobs-have-disappeared-output-has-grown/




lol you think.  anyway...

had you said something like, 'in addition to the push to crush union membership, the US lost 5M mfg jobs' then no, it would not have been arguing in bad faith.  but you didn't offer it that way; you presented it as an alternative reason rather than an additional reason.  in a very matter of fact statement, you said "union membership has dropped because manufacturing jobs got sent out of the US..." without so much as acknowledging the legit point made by ecstatic.   

i don't expect you to understand this nuance since that N word has seemingly been lost on you throughout your posting history in this sub.  i say that as a matter of fact--or call it popular opinion even--but i don't say it as a matter of flame.

other than that...

the united states actually lost about 7 million jobs in manufacturing as of OCT 2016.  however; the US gained about 53 million jobs in the service industries, about 33 million of which are higher paying than those 7M lost MFG jobs

if the net 46M jobs gained as of OCT 2016 had been union jobs then it is a matter of fair speculation that even more of those jobs would have been higher paying than the lost manufacturing jobs. (and no, i don't have the breakdown on how many of those gained jobs in the services were union or not)

as is often the case, it is more complicated than simply offering a semi-disingenuous alternative point rather than expanding on ecstatic's perfectly valid point.

have a good one.

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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: relic] * 1
    #25026234 - 02/27/18 12:26 PM (6 years, 30 days ago)

:awesomenod::whathesaid::toast:


--------------------
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Asclepius]
    #25026290 - 02/27/18 01:01 PM (6 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Asclepius said:
Nigel Farage.  LOL! 




?


--------------------
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25026354 - 02/27/18 01:41 PM (6 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
And where did I state lower union membership wasn't a factor in the drop in real wages?  Less union membership is a contributing factor, as are more workers relative to demand.



We can clearly see that higher union membership is correlated to higher wages.  But I'm still waiting for your evidence to show correlation between wages and unemployment in a non-union environment.

Here's what's been previously shown for starters.



Maybe you can post some evidence that's a little more convincing to your argument?  As an scientist (engineer) by degree, I believe in real world empirical evidence over theory when the two aren't aligned.




"in a non-union environment"

Which is?

"I believe in real world empirical evidence over theory when the two aren't aligned"

No, you believe that finding a correlation of two variables out of many different variables establishes a true causation, and that is "evidence" when in fact it's theory or opinion. :shrug:

When I have pointed out this reality in the past, your reply is a correlation is basically better than nothing. You and I both know that's not evidence when there's so many different variables involved in the equation.

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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: qman]
    #25026379 - 02/27/18 01:50 PM (6 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

relic said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

relic said:
yeah it's not because of the very focused efforts by the right in the US to squash collective bargaining; it's because jobs in the manufacturing sector have decreased.

there's the arguing in bad faith that you, fal, shiva and others have cited examples of repeatedly, especially recently.  it's a very small example and a tangent to a discussion at that, but it's an example nonetheless.




So it's "arguing in bad faith" to acknowledge the loss of manufacturing jobs? :facepalm:

"cited examples"

Like how the US lost 5 million manufacturing jobs in less than two decades?  I think you're confused on what has been cited because you're biased on the subject matter.

www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/07/25/most-americans-unaware-that-as-u-s-manufacturing-jobs-have-disappeared-output-has-grown/




lol you think.  anyway...

had you said something like, 'in addition to the push to crush union membership, the US lost 5M mfg jobs' then no, it would not have been arguing in bad faith.  but you didn't offer it that way; you presented it as an alternative reason rather than an additional reason.  in a very matter of fact statement, you said "union membership has dropped because manufacturing jobs got sent out of the US..." without so much as acknowledging the legit point made by ecstatic.   

i don't expect you to understand this nuance since that N word has seemingly been lost on you throughout your posting history in this sub.  i say that as a matter of fact--or call it popular opinion even--but i don't say it as a matter of flame.

other than that...

the united states actually lost about 7 million jobs in manufacturing as of OCT 2016.  however; the US gained about 53 million jobs in the service industries, about 33 million of which are higher paying than those 7M lost MFG jobs

if the net 46M jobs gained as of OCT 2016 had been union jobs then it is a matter of fair speculation that even more of those jobs would have been higher paying than the lost manufacturing jobs. (and no, i don't have the breakdown on how many of those gained jobs in the services were union or not)

as is often the case, it is more complicated than simply offering a semi-disingenuous alternative point rather than expanding on ecstatic's perfectly valid point.

have a good one.




"without so much acknowledging the legit point made by ecstatic"

Which was what?  That those manufacturing jobs disappeared because of "concerted efforts to crush unions"?  No, they got sent out of the US for cheaper labor.

"expanding on ecstatics perfectly valid point"

So I need to expand on his generalization that stated "concerted efforts to crush unions"?  Please tell me you're fucking joking.

Why don't you or him expand on that generalization?  Or is it already so "perfect" and "valid"?  :facepalm:

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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: qman] * 1
    #25026477 - 02/27/18 02:45 PM (6 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Maybe you can post some evidence that's a little more convincing to your argument?  As an scientist (engineer) by degree, I believe in real world empirical evidence over theory when the two aren't aligned.



No, you believe that finding a correlation of two variables out of many different variables establishes a true causation, and that is "evidence" when in fact it's theory or opinion.



You're surprisingly ignorant about the scientific method.  The way you help prove any hypothesis is with empirical evidence.  If you hypothesize that union membership is correlated with income, and the empirical evidence supports that hypothesis, then you've gone a very long way towards proving your hypothesis.  Science knows that correlation isn't 100% guarantee of causation, but it's an extremely imoportant element in proving causation.

Liberals keep showing that our positions are strongly supported by empirical evidence, be it in economics, climate change, etc, and the conservative response is always something along the lines of "correlation isn't 100% guarantee of causation, ha ha!" and never have any of their own empirical evidence to support their own claims.  It feels to me like intelligent people arguing with (fill in a word that won't get me banned).

Quote:

qman said:
When I have pointed out this reality in the past, your reply is a correlation is basically better than nothing. You and I both know that's not evidence when there's so many different variables involved in the equation.



:facepalm:  :shake:


--------------------
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25026706 - 02/27/18 04:32 PM (6 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Liberals keep showing that our positions are strongly supported by empirical evidence, be it in economics, climate change, etc, and the conservative response is always something along the lines of "correlation isn't 100% guarantee of causation, ha ha!" and never have any of their own empirical evidence to support their own claims.




Do you have a frequency chart to back up your claims on conservatives v. liberals in providing empirical evidence? Otherwise you are just contradicting yourself.

Evidence please.


--------------------
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25026786 - 02/27/18 05:17 PM (6 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Maybe you can post some evidence that's a little more convincing to your argument?  As an scientist (engineer) by degree, I believe in real world empirical evidence over theory when the two aren't aligned.



No, you believe that finding a correlation of two variables out of many different variables establishes a true causation, and that is "evidence" when in fact it's theory or opinion.



You're surprisingly ignorant about the scientific method.  The way you help prove any hypothesis is with empirical evidence.  If you hypothesize that union membership is correlated with income, and the empirical evidence supports that hypothesis, then you've gone a very long way towards proving your hypothesis.  Science knows that correlation isn't 100% guarantee of causation, but it's an extremely imoportant element in proving causation.

Liberals keep showing that our positions are strongly supported by empirical evidence, be it in economics, climate change, etc, and the conservative response is always something along the lines of "correlation isn't 100% guarantee of causation, ha ha!" and never have any of their own empirical evidence to support their own claims.  It feels to me like intelligent people arguing with (fill in a word that won't get me banned).

Quote:

qman said:
When I have pointed out this reality in the past, your reply is a correlation is basically better than nothing. You and I both know that's not evidence when there's so many different variables involved in the equation.



:facepalm:  :shake:




"the conservative response is always something along of lines of 'correlation isn't 100% guarantee of causation"

It might not even be 1% of causation, do you accept that potential reality?

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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: qman] * 1
    #25027012 - 02/27/18 06:24 PM (6 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

qman said:
"the conservative response is always something along of lines of 'correlation isn't 100% guarantee of causation"

It might not even be 1% of causation, do you accept that potential reality?



No, I don't accept that at all.

If at least one variable changes up and down over time, and the other variable follows it, the odds of that being a random correlation are extremely small.

Only if both variables have a steady increase (or decrease) such as population and cost of living, then there may not necessarily be a correlation between the two.


--------------------
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25027419 - 02/27/18 09:06 PM (6 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
You're surprisingly ignorant about the scientific method.  The way you help prove any hypothesis is with empirical evidence.  If you hypothesize that union membership is correlated with income, and the empirical evidence supports that hypothesis, then you've gone a very long way towards proving your hypothesis.  Science knows that correlation isn't 100% guarantee of causation, but it's an extremely imoportant element in proving causation.




I mean, maybe in mathematics they prove stuff, but most of the other sciences are about disproving things.  You form a hypothesis, then perform an experiment designed to either disprove or support the hypothesis.  Repeat this process several times, assuming you don't disprove it on the first try.  Eventually, it will either be disproved, or a preponderance of supporting evidence with make it a theory.  Then everyone takes turns attacking it with experiments which either support it or disprove it in whole or in part more or less forever.  We accept things like gravity, as an example, as proven but they never really are.

Quote:

Liberals keep showing that our positions are strongly supported by empirical evidence, be it in economics, climate change, etc, and the conservative response is always something along the lines of "correlation isn't 100% guarantee of causation, ha ha!" and never have any of their own empirical evidence to support their own claims.




It isn't even hard.  We're all on the internet.  Anyone can read any paper on anything they want.  Every statistic you could ever want is a few keystrokes away. 
Sometimes I cite sources that explicitly refute my own point just to see if anyone is even reading them.



that'll get 'em to read my shit for sure now.  :lol:


--------------------


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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: qman]
    #25028104 - 02/28/18 07:26 AM (6 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

qman said:

"without so much acknowledging the legit point made by ecstatic"

Which was what?  That those manufacturing jobs disappeared because of "concerted efforts to crush unions"?  No, they got sent out of the US for cheaper labor.

"expanding on ecstatics perfectly valid point"

So I need to expand on his generalization that stated "concerted efforts to crush unions"?  Please tell me you're fucking joking.

Why don't you or him expand on that generalization?  Or is it already so "perfect" and "valid"?  :facepalm:





nuance.  lost on you.  thanks for providing an example in your own words for all to see.

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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: relic]
    #25028262 - 02/28/18 08:45 AM (6 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

relic said:
Quote:

qman said:

"without so much acknowledging the legit point made by ecstatic"

Which was what?  That those manufacturing jobs disappeared because of "concerted efforts to crush unions"?  No, they got sent out of the US for cheaper labor.

"expanding on ecstatics perfectly valid point"

So I need to expand on his generalization that stated "concerted efforts to crush unions"?  Please tell me you're fucking joking.

Why don't you or him expand on that generalization?  Or is it already so "perfect" and "valid"?  :facepalm:





nuance.  lost on you.  thanks for providing an example in your own words for all to see.




Why don't you let ecstatic speak for himself, why does he need you defending his generalization?

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: qman]
    #25028272 - 02/28/18 08:52 AM (6 years, 29 days ago)

What exactly do I need to defend?

Operative word being exactly.


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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: The Ecstatic] * 3
    #25028290 - 02/28/18 08:59 AM (6 years, 29 days ago)

I'm not disagreeing that unions in this nation have traditionally been grounded in the manufacturing sector, and as such have decline as manufacturing jobs have moved overseas.

But again, just as with illegal immigration, there's not much to be done about that. Our government, local, state, and federal, have been working to crush unions for over a century. It seems we all acknowledge the reasons why they do so, if not I can explain that further. But the point is we should be focused on the problems that are 1) much more pressing, and 2) infinitely more solvable. Like relic said, our domestic economy is much more centered around the service industry in the current global economy, so lets clear the pathway for that huge sector of working class people to be able to unionize (which I assume we all see as a net positive for workers). Lets focus on the problems that matter, the problems we can actually solve. The problems that are actually problems.

Why can't a nationalist be a proud US worker fighting against a tyrannical government for the betterment of himself, his family, and his neighbors? Why does he have to be a useful idiot for the corporatocracy? Its just ridiculous. YES, there are problems associated with immigration, and globalization, otherwise these hard right dumbfucks wouldn't ever get a single vote. But you have to resist buying into their surface level, quick fix bullshit, and look at the deeper, systemic issues. Worry about the government that crushes your wages, benefits, health, and general standard of life. Not the fucking immigrant who's just one rung below you on the shit ladder.

Edit: Yes, most conservatives, moderates, centrists, and liberals are terrible on these issues, too. But the far right buys into it the most.


--------------------

Edited by The Ecstatic (02/28/18 09:05 AM)

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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #25028468 - 02/28/18 10:22 AM (6 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
I'm not disagreeing that unions in this nation have traditionally been grounded in the manufacturing sector, and as such have decline as manufacturing jobs have moved overseas.

But again, just as with illegal immigration, there's not much to be done about that. Our government, local, state, and federal, have been working to crush unions for over a century. It seems we all acknowledge the reasons why they do so, if not I can explain that further. But the point is we should be focused on the problems that are 1) much more pressing, and 2) infinitely more solvable. Like relic said, our domestic economy is much more centered around the service industry in the current global economy, so lets clear the pathway for that huge sector of working class people to be able to unionize (which I assume we all see as a net positive for workers). Lets focus on the problems that matter, the problems we can actually solve. The problems that are actually problems.

Why can't a nationalist be a proud US worker fighting against a tyrannical government for the betterment of himself, his family, and his neighbors? Why does he have to be a useful idiot for the corporatocracy? Its just ridiculous. YES, there are problems associated with immigration, and globalization, otherwise these hard right dumbfucks wouldn't ever get a single vote. But you have to resist buying into their surface level, quick fix bullshit, and look at the deeper, systemic issues. Worry about the government that crushes your wages, benefits, health, and general standard of life. Not the fucking immigrant who's just one rung below you on the shit ladder.

Edit: Yes, most conservatives, moderates, centrists, and liberals are terrible on these issues, too. But the far right buys into it the most.




"so lets clear the pathway for that huge sector of working class people to be able to unionize"

I don't even take issue with this outlook, but my question would be, how would they do it and what's stopping it from happening?

We can't even get our own government to stop companies from paying below minimum wage to illegal workers, there is no enforcement of the current employment laws.

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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: XUL]
    #25028647 - 02/28/18 12:21 PM (6 years, 29 days ago)

Hegel's dialectical history in action

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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: qman] * 1
    #25028673 - 02/28/18 12:35 PM (6 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

qman said:
those manufacturing jobs disappeared because of "concerted efforts to crush unions"?  No, they got sent out of the US for cheaper labor.



I always wonder if you're really that ignorant or if you just like to pretend you are so you can survive another few posts before someone makes your ignorance perfectly clear.

Do you not remember the air traffic controllers strike in the early 80's as just one of many examples?  Once Government decided it didn't care about unions anymore, that was the beginning of the end for them.  There are a whole lot of examples of the "concerted efforts to crush unions" out there if you were interested.


--------------------
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #25028676 - 02/28/18 12:37 PM (6 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Our government, local, state, and federal, have been working to crush unions for over a century. It seems we all acknowledge the reasons why they do so, if not I can explain that further.



Looks like you beat me to it.  :thumbup:


--------------------
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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25028755 - 02/28/18 01:20 PM (6 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
"the conservative response is always something along of lines of 'correlation isn't 100% guarantee of causation"

It might not even be 1% of causation, do you accept that potential reality?



No, I don't accept that at all.

If at least one variable changes up and down over time, and the other variable follows it, the odds of that being a random correlation are extremely small.

Only if both variables have a steady increase (or decrease) such as population and cost of living, then there may not necessarily be a correlation between the two.




It's also often the case that another variable is the the common causal agent that drives the trend in both variables.

A simple example might be that the population of earthworms in my lawn and the health of the grass trend almost exactly the same. One might cause the other or both might be driven by changes of season or the amount of moisture or both.

Of course in the big complex world of society we have to take the best evidence we can find and try to glean the truth from it as best we can. But we should always be open to the possibility that there is more evidence.


--------------------


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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Thundermuscle75]
    #25028898 - 02/28/18 02:04 PM (6 years, 29 days ago)

Agreed, but no one has thus far presented any other variable other than union membership that correlates so closely with shared wealth.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25029188 - 02/28/18 02:21 PM (6 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
those manufacturing jobs disappeared because of "concerted efforts to crush unions"?  No, they got sent out of the US for cheaper labor.



I always wonder if you're really that ignorant or if you just like to pretend you are so you can survive another few posts before someone makes your ignorance perfectly clear.

Do you not remember the air traffic controllers strike in the early 80's as just one of many examples?  Once Government decided it didn't care about unions anymore, that was the beginning of the end for them.  There are a whole lot of examples of the "concerted efforts to crush unions" out there if you were interested.




I think you're confusing two different issues- the loss of US manufacturing jobs and less US workers being union members.

You do realize when a company closed a US manufacturing facility that employed US union workers, those jobs were sent out of the US? That scenario helped destroy union jobs, correct? 

I'm not sure why you're being so hostile about this discussion, where am I being so ignorant?

"once Government decided it didn't care about unions anymore, that was the beginning of the end of them"

Well, was it just Government that just woke up and decided they "didn't care about unions anymore"?  Or was it that our Representatives deciding not to support unions and voters siding with them?    I think Reagan was quite clear on his stance with unions. http://truth-out.org/archive/component/k2/item/94231:ronald-reagan-enemy-of-the-american-worker

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Last seen: 6 months, 18 days
Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: qman]
    #25029259 - 02/28/18 02:42 PM (6 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

qman said:
I think you're confusing two different issues- the loss of US manufacturing jobs and less US workers being union members.

You do realize when a company closed a US manufacturing facility that employed US union workers, those jobs were sent out of the US? That scenario helped destroy union jobs, correct? 

I'm not sure why you're being so hostile about this discussion, where am I being so ignorant?



You said:
Quote:

qman said:
"without so much acknowledging the legit point made by ecstatic"

Which was what?  That those manufacturing jobs disappeared because of "concerted efforts to crush unions"?  No, they got sent out of the US for cheaper labor.



But there was, in fact, a concerted effort to crush unions.  Of course some union manufacturing jobs were lost to outsourcing, but I was arguing with your "No" response to The Ecstatic.  You should have responded that it was both, not "No".


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineThundermuscle75
Penis, usually hard
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Registered: 11/27/17
Posts: 1,726
Loc: Staring at woodchips.
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25029312 - 02/28/18 03:02 PM (6 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
I think you're confusing two different issues- the loss of US manufacturing jobs and less US workers being union members.

You do realize when a company closed a US manufacturing facility that employed US union workers, those jobs were sent out of the US? That scenario helped destroy union jobs, correct? 

I'm not sure why you're being so hostile about this discussion, where am I being so ignorant?



You said:
Quote:

qman said:
"without so much acknowledging the legit point made by ecstatic"

Which was what?  That those manufacturing jobs disappeared because of "concerted efforts to crush unions"?  No, they got sent out of the US for cheaper labor.



But there was, in fact, a concerted effort to crush unions.  Of course some union manufacturing jobs were lost to outsourcing, but I was arguing with your "No" response to The Ecstatic.  You should have responded that it was both, not "No".




I wonder if there is a way we could do organized labor in the future better than we have in the past.

Overall unions do great things for workers but they also have a tendency to shoot themselves in the foot.

I think of my friend who was a steel worker in the seventies and eighties. They went on strike and shut the factory down. That factory never opened again.

He said the job was great, the pay was great and the benefits were great. But they demanded more and lost it all.


--------------------


"Rape ... Is a... can of apples" -Fiery

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Offlineqman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 2 hours, 46 minutes
Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25029339 - 02/28/18 03:15 PM (6 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
I think you're confusing two different issues- the loss of US manufacturing jobs and less US workers being union members.

You do realize when a company closed a US manufacturing facility that employed US union workers, those jobs were sent out of the US? That scenario helped destroy union jobs, correct? 

I'm not sure why you're being so hostile about this discussion, where am I being so ignorant?



You said:
Quote:

qman said:
"without so much acknowledging the legit point made by ecstatic"

Which was what?  That those manufacturing jobs disappeared because of "concerted efforts to crush unions"?  No, they got sent out of the US for cheaper labor.



But there was, in fact, a concerted effort to crush unions.  Of course some union manufacturing jobs were lost to outsourcing, but I was arguing with your "No" response to The Ecstatic.  You should have responded that it was both, not "No".




Yes, it was both.  I also think US citizens also need to take some responsibility for this situation, just blaming the "Government" doesn't explain the whole story in my opinion.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US Flag
Last seen: 6 months, 18 days
Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Thundermuscle75] * 2
    #25029340 - 02/28/18 03:15 PM (6 years, 29 days ago)

I agree, unions shouldn't ask for any more than a fair share of the profits.  If profits are down, unions have to accept less and should help figure out ways to help profits go back up again.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US Flag
Last seen: 6 months, 18 days
Re: Nationalism is becoming more popular [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 3
    #25030677 - 03/01/18 12:31 AM (6 years, 29 days ago)



--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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