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Mateja



Registered: 07/14/16
Posts: 7,948
Loc: Here
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WBS Hydration/Colonization Times -[EXPERIMENT]- 3
#24824234 - 12/03/17 06:02 PM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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Hello Shroomery!
This is once again a fairly crude experiment to get some kind of insight into on how clones colonize WBS that have been prepared differently in regard to soaking time and soaking temp. I don't think this needs much introduction so Iยดm just gonna explain real quick how I have conducted this experiment:
I prepared three batches of WBS for this experiment.
1 I soaked the WBS for 7 hours in room temp water 2 I soaked the WBS for 48 hours in room temp water 3 I soaked the WBS for 60 minutes in 60-70C degrees water (165-183F)
Nov 18 10:00 I started the 48h soak Nov 20 03:00 I started the 7h soak Nov 20 09:00 I started the 60 min hot soak Nov 20 10:00 I started draining all three batches because they all finished at the same time.
After the WBS had been drained sufficiently the hair dryer came out. I made sure they were all equally dry/moist on the outside, to the best of my ability. There were no wet spots anywhere when the jars were loaded. Exactly 500ml of hydrated WBS was used in all quart jars. Quart jars and 300ml jars were used for this experiment.
Nov 21 I inoculated all quart jars with 5ml of blenderless LI each, and the 300ml jars were inoculated with 1ml each. All jars were shaken in the same manner for the same time after inoculation, and the quart jars were shaken additionally 8 days into colonization. The 300ml jars have not been shaken additionally, only right after inoculation.
This is how the jars look today:
Quart jars, 7h room temp soak, 5ml LI, inoculated Nov 21, shaken Nov 29 (I wrote on the jars "shaken 19/11" but its suppose to say 29/11" (I also wrote "shook")

Quart jars, 48h room temp soak, 5ml LI, inoculated Nov 21, shaken Nov 29

Quart jars, 60 min hot soak, 5ml LI, inoculated Nov 21, shaken Nov 29
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300ml jars 7h room temp soak, 1ml LI, inoculated Nov 21

300ml jars 48h room temp soak, 1ml LI, inoculated Nov 21

300ml jars 60 min hot soak, 1ml LI, inoculated Nov 21

In the photos there are 5 of each jar but I made 6 of each for this test and I used 3 clones. Every set of batches had 3 different clones, so for example in 7h room temp soak I had 2 jars of cl.1, two jars of cl.2 and two jars of cl.3. And the same for the other batches. I did this in case one specific clone preferred wetter grains over dryer and I wanted to mix in more variables to get a clearer reading on the test. I did not detect any difference between the performance of the three clones.
As always I welcome every suggestion on how I can improve the tests in the future and I welcome all your theories on what you make out of this "preliminary test" 
I should probably refer to my past experiments with hydration level so you can get an understanding of what the different preparation methods mean in terms of hydration. WBS hydration methods -[EXPERIMENT]- https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/24764677 Water absoprtion in BRF cakes -[EXPERIMENT]- https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=24739690&page=0&vc=1#24739690
-------------------- Cakes inside Water Tub
Edited by Mateja (12/08/17 09:37 PM)
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tripdawg420
low life with no life



Registered: 02/02/09
Posts: 7,071
Loc: illinois
Last seen: 8 hours, 58 minutes
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Re: WBS Hydration/Colonization Times -[EXPERIMENT]- [Re: Mateja]
#24824251 - 12/03/17 06:13 PM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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mushboy
modboy



Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 32,394
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Re: WBS Hydration/Colonization Times -[EXPERIMENT]- [Re: tripdawg420]
#24824271 - 12/03/17 06:24 PM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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good example on the importance of proper grain hydration. dry grains take hella long to colonize ime. wet ones go to shit.
need that good goldielocks in between
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verum subsequentis
seeker of truth



Registered: 03/22/16
Posts: 8,732
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
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Re: WBS Hydration/Colonization Times -[EXPERIMENT]- [Re: mushboy]
#24824589 - 12/03/17 10:30 PM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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Cool man. Thanks for posting. This is what it's all about.
Fucking science.
Edited by verum subsequentis (12/03/17 10:31 PM)
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Mateja



Registered: 07/14/16
Posts: 7,948
Loc: Here
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The 60 min hot soak WBS were almost fully colonized on day 8 and probably didn't need the second shake but I did it anyway because of the experiment. Mushboy, it seems you are right about mycelium colonizing slow on dry grain, most of the mycelium is at the bottom where there is more moisture.
-------------------- Cakes inside Water Tub
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mushboy
modboy



Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 32,394
Loc: where?
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Re: WBS Hydration/Colonization Times -[EXPERIMENT]- [Re: Mateja]
#24825411 - 12/04/17 11:36 AM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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60min hot soak eh?
i bucket tekked wbs once and it worked nicely(worked decent with oats too). but the grains werent as loose as id like. are you just air drying?
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 2 years, 26 days
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Re: WBS Hydration/Colonization Times -[EXPERIMENT]- [Re: mushboy]
#24825413 - 12/04/17 11:40 AM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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Nobody should be starting any grain at room temp
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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mushboy
modboy



Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 32,394
Loc: where?
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Re: WBS Hydration/Colonization Times -[EXPERIMENT]- [Re: cronicr]
#24825417 - 12/04/17 11:41 AM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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ive been soaking wbs in room temp water for a minute(long ass time)what am i doing wrong?
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 2 years, 26 days
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Re: WBS Hydration/Colonization Times -[EXPERIMENT]- [Re: mushboy]
#24825423 - 12/04/17 11:43 AM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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Waiting too long
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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mushboy
modboy



Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 32,394
Loc: where?
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Re: WBS Hydration/Colonization Times -[EXPERIMENT]- [Re: cronicr]
#24825424 - 12/04/17 11:46 AM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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im too oblivious. i dont get it.
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 2 years, 26 days
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Re: WBS Hydration/Colonization Times -[EXPERIMENT]- [Re: mushboy]
#24825441 - 12/04/17 11:55 AM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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Nothing wrong with it...it just achieves two things...faster hydration and kills the seeds/grain so they dont germinate on you.
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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Mateja



Registered: 07/14/16
Posts: 7,948
Loc: Here
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Re: WBS Hydration/Colonization Times -[EXPERIMENT]- [Re: mushboy]
#24825467 - 12/04/17 12:06 PM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
cronicr said: Nobody should be starting any grain at room temp
This experiment will morph into another one, spawn colonization times inside jars is one thing when it comes to grain hydration, but bulk substrate colonization times will not be affected by the grain hydration levels, but the the contam issues may vary between the 48h room temp soak and the 60min hot soak. I will spawn 1 jar (500ml of spawn) to 1L of 'sterilized' coir (rather for the purpose of cooking the coir instead of sterilizing) inside 20L tubs, give them perfect amount of love and just observe and take notes. Next time I will do the same preparations but I will not inoculate the jars I will just leave them be and observe and take notes and we'll see what's what with that!
Quote:
mushboy said: 60min hot soak eh?
i bucket tekked wbs once and it worked nicely(worked decent with oats too). but the grains werent as loose as id like. are you just air drying?
I spread them on a few large self constructed colanders using mesh net, I have zero 0% RH where I live because it's winter dry air in combination with us warming the place with electric heaters to survive, so I guess the dry air at my place speeds this process up! One hour of this and after that only 2-3 min tops with the hair dryer to get that nice outer 'moisture' where it's somewhere in between dry and very lightly moist. I don't know what the perfect moisture is from experience so I went with my intuition
-------------------- Cakes inside Water Tub
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AyePlus
Stony Danza


Registered: 12/18/14
Posts: 3,393
Loc: Fairfield, Connecticut
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Re: WBS Hydration/Colonization Times -[EXPERIMENT]- [Re: Mateja]
#24839519 - 12/11/17 12:41 PM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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-------------------- Learn about breeding
  C10โs agar guide Good surface conditions = Good pinsets Read more, post less. ๐
๐ฐ ๐ผ ๐ด ๐
๐ด ๐ฐ ๐ผ ๐
๐ด ๐ฐ ๐ผ ๐ฒ ๐ป ๐ธ ๐ฝ ๐ถ ๐
๐
๐ฐ ๐ฟ
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stareatclouds
star eat clouds?



Registered: 09/29/14
Posts: 9,930
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Re: WBS Hydration/Colonization Times -[EXPERIMENT]- [Re: Mateja]
#25012376 - 02/22/18 03:15 AM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mateah said: Mushboy, it seems you are right about mycelium colonizing slow on dry grain, most of the mycelium is at the bottom where there is more moisture.
That's because you inoculated with liquid.
Really cool experiment, Mateah. Thank you for recording the results. I'd be curious to see it done with different inoculation techniques and different grain (specifically one with uniform size, such as oats).
Is it certain that higher water content = easier for myc to colonize? Or could it be the grains are bigger/heavier, providing bigger gaps for myc to travel through?
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Ziran
The Hero of Time




Registered: 02/03/16
Posts: 6,030
Loc: Temple of Time
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Re: WBS Hydration/Colonization Times -[EXPERIMENT]- [Re: stareatclouds]
#25012392 - 02/22/18 03:39 AM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
stareatclouds said:
Quote:
Mateah said: Mushboy, it seems you are right about mycelium colonizing slow on dry grain, most of the mycelium is at the bottom where there is more moisture.
That's because you inoculated with liquid.
Really cool experiment, Mateah. Thank you for recording the results. I'd be curious to see it done with different inoculation techniques and different grain (specifically one with uniform size, such as oats).
Is it certain that higher water content = easier for myc to colonize? Or could it be the grains are bigger/heavier, providing bigger gaps for myc to travel through?
Its possible that properly hydrated grains is simply easier for mycelium to penetrate it.
-------------------- Song Of Healing
Updated Pf Tek Guide Ziran's Teks AMU Q&A Thread The Chinese word for nature is zรฌrรกn and it means that of which is of itself.

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stareatclouds
star eat clouds?



Registered: 09/29/14
Posts: 9,930
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Re: WBS Hydration/Colonization Times -[EXPERIMENT]- [Re: Ziran]
#25012403 - 02/22/18 03:54 AM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
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Right, that's what I meant by easier for myc to colonize, which I'm sure is a big part of it. Just trying to think if higher water content = more weight (bigger grains), but less grains overall. Like maybe instead of hydrating the full batch and dividing by equal weights, just keep the initial groups separate, i.e., if 60m simmer takes 100g to 140g, just load that 140g into a jar?
Isn't it weird to use ml to measure grain for this? 100g of hydrated grain is going to take up more space than 100g of dried grain, right? I mean, 100ml is the same volume, but fewer grains, which myc might treat differently?
I'm just thinking out loud about how myc behaves. It's pretty obvious that hydrating grain is optimal and I've never thought otherwise. I'll try and do something like this soon with oats and the same clone across the board.
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Mateja


Registered: 07/14/16
Posts: 7,948
Loc: Here
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Re: WBS Hydration/Colonization Times -[EXPERIMENT]- [Re: stareatclouds]
#25012558 - 02/22/18 07:08 AM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
stareatclouds said:
Quote:
Mateah said: Mushboy, it seems you are right about mycelium colonizing slow on dry grain, most of the mycelium is at the bottom where there is more moisture.
That's because you inoculated with liquid.
Really cool experiment, Mateah. Thank you for recording the results. I'd be curious to see it done with different inoculation techniques and different grain (specifically one with uniform size, such as oats).
Is it certain that higher water content = easier for myc to colonize? Or could it be the grains are bigger/heavier, providing bigger gaps for myc to travel through?
Thank you for the kind words Stare! Interesting you should bring up homogeneous spawn, I was just looking for prices on rye locally. Found organic rye 50lbs for like 65US, itยดs pretty cheap I guess considering where I live. Of course I realized pretty soon that these hydration methods could never be standardized for WBS for several reasons. First of course cause itยดs not homogeneous, and second is that my WBS may contain totally different grain and seed than another ones WBS. So far in my limited experience a 60min hot soak seems to be pretty cose to ideal for my WBS at least. But I will test with longer hot soaks as well soon.
Now for your question, and a very interesting one. I would intuitively assume that myc will colonize faster and digest more efficiently a grain that is very soft and plump with moisture, easier so than a grain that is less hydrated and thus is harder towards the center. A question that had always interested me is apporx how much of the spawn does myc consume after two flushes. I will try an experiment where I weigh dry grain spawn and then somehow extract it after the two flushes and then dry it and re weigh it. I donยดt even know if that could give me quantifiable data idk how much of myc weight would be in the grain, even tho it cant possibly count for much.
Another thing got me thinking, IF mycelium can digest less hydrated grain as well as well hydrated ones, then you would have more nutrients with less hydrated grain due to less volume of grain. But then again who really know how much of it gets digested anyway hehe.
Iยดm always open to ideas and suggestions for experiments
-------------------- Cakes inside Water Tub
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pacmanbreed


Registered: 10/12/16
Posts: 3,692
Last seen: 5 minutes, 59 seconds
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Re: WBS Hydration/Colonization Times -[EXPERIMENT]- [Re: Mateja]
#25012680 - 02/22/18 08:45 AM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
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Love your experiments mateh. good data
Hope you dont mind if i add this for refrence in the futute. From your other soak test. Based on 12% starting moisture content of millet 7 hrs: Wet basis moisture content = 37.44% Dry basis moisture content = 59.85%
48 hrs: Wet basis moisture content = 44.49% Dry basis moisture content = 76.98%
60 min hot water: Wet basis moisture content = 47.15% Dry basis moisture content = 89.23%
Seems mycelium loves grain when they reach: Near or = 50% hydration if we used the wet formula basis. and about 90-100% water to matter using dry formula basis.
Edited by pacmanbreed (02/22/18 12:32 PM)
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