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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: qman]
    #25002056 - 02/17/18 07:18 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

What was your reason for posting that? Surely you're not saying that because we meddle others that it's okay that they meddle in ours?

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Offlineqman
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: krypto2000]
    #25002084 - 02/17/18 07:31 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
What was your reason for posting that? Surely you're not saying that because we meddle others that it's okay that they meddle in ours?




It shows that no country operates in a vacuum and to expect differently is beyond silly.

The fact that an ex-CIA director is laughing about the US "meddling" is very telling in my opinion because this is nothing more than a joke.

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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: qman]
    #25002093 - 02/17/18 07:36 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Sure, no one should be surprised that Russia would do such a thing, but that doesn't make it okay right?

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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: krypto2000]
    #25002151 - 02/17/18 08:02 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

It seems you are saying if one or two people do it, no problem, but if its done a lot then big problem. Q is right, its a joke but no one is laughing. Interfering with our election by posting on media and buying ads.

What about the 20 million saudi arabia gave hillary? Was that interfering or is that ok since it wasn't for trump?


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: koods] * 1
    #25002157 - 02/17/18 08:04 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

koods said:
We now know the trump campaign coordinated with Russia.



No we don't.  Unless you have evidenced that hasn't yet been posted?

Even krypto2000 is now arguing this has nothing to do with Trump being involved.




It's in the fucking indictment.




Care to share that with us?


--------------------
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Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Stonehenge] * 1
    #25002173 - 02/17/18 08:13 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
What about the 20 million saudi arabia gave hillary? Was that interfering or is that ok since it wasn't for trump?




What about it? If that was illegal then it should be prosecuted too.

What is with all of this whataboutism and deflections, can you guys not debate a topic on its own merits? You have a sense of right and wrong, right?

No matter how many bad things are done by however many people it doesn't make any of them better or worse relative to themselves. If you get arrested for assault and battery do you defend yourself by saying that 10's of thousands of people commit assault and battery every year or point out how there's even more hardened criminals out there committing rape and murder? Do you believe that to be a valid defense?

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Offlinemusiclover420
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: krypto2000]
    #25002221 - 02/17/18 08:45 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

What does everyone think about this, Trump literally was RE tweeting russian propaganda as far back as 2014:

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/536655839353139200

Quote:

"@russiannavyblog:  @dr_rita39 I follow Mr. Trump in a crusade to get him to restore Western Civilization with a Trump/Palin '16 ticket!"




https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/546426937179381760

Quote:

"@VladimirRussia7: "@realDonaldTrump :Be sure to set exceptional goals for your 2015 resolutions. Push yourself, you can do it. Think Big!""






Also funnily enough Trump is claiming as some of this Russia stuff dates back to 2014 before he was running that clears his name, but he registered the MAGA trademark in 2012 with the intention of using it as his campaign slogan...


--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: krypto2000]
    #25002225 - 02/17/18 08:47 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

You are (along with the dems and mueller) trying to make a mountain out of a molehill of posts. We talk about major crimes that nothing was done about yet, but we should be up in arms cause they posted on fb or something? Yes that was the main thrust of the indictment, the other was just stuff they happened across.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755

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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Stonehenge] * 1
    #25002279 - 02/17/18 09:23 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

I feel like you guys are trying to make a mole hill out of a mountain. :shrug:

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Offlinefraufranfroufrou
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: krypto2000]
    #25002522 - 02/18/18 12:10 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Edit:

Edited by fraufranfroufrou (02/18/18 02:35 AM)

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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: fraufranfroufrou] * 3
    #25002625 - 02/18/18 01:49 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

It's interesting to me that everyone is worried about foreign influence in the U.S. election process vis a vis "russian collusion", but nobody makes a peep about the unlimited political speech rights afforded to foreigners via investment in American corporations.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #25002886 - 02/18/18 06:08 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

krypto2000 said:
In that case then I do not believe I can change your mind at this point as we can only speculate how much impact the ad campaigns had.



Ok then, how would you define election interference?




Here we have finally found the mythological paid shills, and now it's "meh." LOL. These people had millions of dollars to buy social media influence, to promote or fabricate fake news, to coordinate with campaigns. You cannot quantify their influence but it certainly wasn't nothing.

I think the most effective part of the Russian media operation was to poison Clinton in the eyes of sanders supporters.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: krypto2000]
    #25003256 - 02/18/18 10:18 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Some people seem to think posting on the internet is spying or something. If this flies what is next, charging people with a crime for expressing their views? Maybe if they investigate them hard enough they will find a bag of weed too? Maybe left wingers will be in the cross hairs next time? Be careful what you wish for cause it may come back to bite you in the ass.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755

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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: koods]
    #25003261 - 02/18/18 10:21 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

This is only one set of indictments too pertaining to one aspect of the investigation. It's known and now accepted that they also hacked the dns and rnc emails as well which had a significant impact. It also raises the question what did they do with the rnc emails? Why not release those, nothing interesting bc the gop are all so clean? What do we still not know, is there more to yet uncover? It seems like every time new info comes out Trump supports ignore the evidence and focus on everything it is not.

4 trump campaign members arrested? Trump wasnt and they are not being charged with conspiracy, "Trump is vindicated! No russian interference!" becomes their take away. 13 russians and 3 firms indicted for a widespread multi million dollar campaign to push trump and hurt clinton? "No americans involved, no evidence it affected the results, Trump is proven innocent!" It's denial all the way down, I wonder if there is a breaking point or if trump were found guilty if he would just become a messiah to some of these people and they will forever refuse to accept the evidence presented to them. (Largely not referring to fal here btw, he seems rather rational to me for the most part)

Edit: Lol, yeah, I may however be referring to stone for one. Running a conspiracy that had a monthly budget in the millions and more employees than trumps actual campaign is equivalent to finding a bag of weed to him. How do we rationalize with these people and come together to heal? Is it even possible?

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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Stonehenge] * 1
    #25003278 - 02/18/18 10:33 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Some people seem to think posting on the internet is spying or something. If this flies what is next, charging people with a crime for expressing their views? Maybe if they investigate them hard enough they will find a bag of weed too? Maybe left wingers will be in the cross hairs next time? Be careful what you wish for cause it may come back to bite you in the ass.




As a left winger I HOPE left wingers are in the cross hairs. I do not want corrupt people leading this country. What do you not get about that? It's not a partisan issue, this isn't a game, it is our lives. I want EVERYONE in the cross hairs if they deserve to be so. I keep saying this and it just doesn't seem to resonate with you. Why would I want someone corrupt in charge jist because they share some of my values? I feel like I want to "drain the swamp" and you guys just want to win and hurt liberals. I don't want to drain the republican swamp or the donald trump swamp, and I don't want to hurt conservatives, I want to protect us all from gdtting hurt. How can we not agree on that? This isn't supposed to be a competition, it is supposed to be a united country.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: koods]
    #25003645 - 02/18/18 01:10 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Here we have finally found the mythological paid shills, and now it's "meh." LOL.  These people had millions of dollars to buy social media influence, to promote or fabricate fake news, to coordinate with campaigns.



Until someone shows evidence that they were doing significantly more than selling Bernie coloring books, or pushing slogans that racism is evil, it's pretty much a "meh".

Quote:

koods said:
I think the most effective part of the Russian media operation was to poison Clinton in the eyes of sanders supporters.



IF they revealed the truth about the DNC (Assange said it wasn't the Russian Government) then they deserve a whistleblower medal.  Or do you like to be ignorant?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: krypto2000]
    #25003657 - 02/18/18 01:16 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

So posting on the net is corruption? Then you are corrupt. Or only if they have a big budget? We don't know who hacked the dnc but I'm glad they did, they were dirty as hell. If some EX trump staffers are found guilty it looks like it will be bs charges like posting without a licence, lol. And maybe a bag of weed.

Yeah, one day when they come knocking on your door for illegal posting you will sputter "but but I'm not a russian!" as they drag you away. Free speech must be constantly defended against the forces of tyranny.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: krypto2000]
    #25003687 - 02/18/18 01:31 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
It's known and now accepted that they also hacked the dns and rnc emails as well which had a significant impact.



We still don't know who released the emails to WikiLeaks.  Assange said it wasn't Russia, so it's NOT known and accepted that Russians had a significant impact.

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
It also raises the question what did they do with the rnc emails? Why not release those, nothing interesting bc the gop are all so clean? What do we still not know, is there more to yet uncover?



Two problems here:

1.  You still assume it was Russia who released the emails to WikiLeaks.  They might just be sitting on both DNC and RNC emails.
2.  It was never shown the Russians successfully hacked the RNC; only that they attempted to hack it.  Again, this just tells us that Russia spies on other countries, just like the US does, and just like the Netherlands did with Russia in the article you posted.

Should we pretend to be mad when we do it all the time?  Sure, I guess so.

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
13 russians and 3 firms indicted for a widespread multi million dollar campaign to push trump and hurt clinton?



Wrong.  13 russians and 3 firms indicted for a widespread multi one million dollar campaign to push trump and hurt clinton “sow discord in the US political system” by supporting both sides.  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25003740 - 02/18/18 01:56 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

They had a $1.25 million MONTHLY budget. Yes, that means multi million. They supported Trump and Bernie and attacked Clinton, Cruz, etc. Where are you getting this both sides narrative from?

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: krypto2000]
    #25003904 - 02/18/18 03:11 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
They had a $1.25 million MONTHLY budget. Yes, that means multi million.



Ok, my mistake.

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
They supported Trump and Bernie and attacked Clinton, Cruz, etc. Where are you getting this both sides narrative from?



From the ads themselves?


Let me share a story that explains my perspective and what I'm guessing is going on (admittedly, this is speculation, but so far I've seen nothing to show my speculation is wrong).

Well before the election, I posted about how Hillary wants us to hate on Russia.  I know a good number of Russians living here in the San Francisco Bay Area, and it's clear I wasn't the only one who noticed this.  Many of the Russians I know found Hillary's aggression troubling, and some Russian Democrats (US Citizens) actually said they would not vote for Hillary (Bernie was their man, and previously Obama was).  When Bernie lost, some of them plugged their nose and decided to support Trump over Clinton (though I may have convinced a few to 'waste' a vote on Jill Stein).

As American citizens, I know these people are politically active, and give money to their favorite candidates.  My theory (I haven't asked them) is that some of those Russians whose English isn't that good donated to Russian language anti-Hillary websites (not necessarily pro-Trump).  These may have been the organizations in Saint Petersburg that were just indicted.  Many of the adds would be consistent with this.

It's currently a fact that "Mueller’s indictment did not tie the meddling effort to the Russian government" and that it has nothing to do with the actions of Trump or the Russian Government.

Just some food for thought on what might have happened.  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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