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Offlineqman
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: koods]
    #25579479 - 10/30/18 08:49 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

So maybe allegations of sexual assault without any solid evidence shouldn't be given very much credibility.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: qman] * 1
    #25579756 - 10/30/18 10:23 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Victim testimony is solid evidence.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: qman]
    #25580001 - 10/30/18 11:47 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
So maybe allegations of sexual assault without any solid evidence shouldn't be given very much credibility.




There was no allegation of sexual assault. There was an attempt to conspire to falsely accuse, but They couldn’t find a woman willing to lie.

Let’s get this straight. You are trying to impugn the testimony of Dr. Ford and women in general by suggesting that democrats got her to make false allegations or she did it in her own for political reasons, and your supporting evidence is a woman who refused to make false allegations and the conspirators were not liberals but conservatives.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Enlil]
    #25581002 - 10/31/18 10:26 AM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Victim testimony is solid evidence.




I'm sure under some circumstances that's very true.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: koods]
    #25581012 - 10/31/18 10:29 AM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

qman said:
So maybe allegations of sexual assault without any solid evidence shouldn't be given very much credibility.




There was no allegation of sexual assault. There was an attempt to conspire to falsely accuse, but They couldn’t find a woman willing to lie.

Let’s get this straight. You are trying to impugn the testimony of Dr. Ford and women in general by suggesting that democrats got her to make false allegations or she did it in her own for political reasons, and your supporting evidence is a woman who refused to make false allegations and the conspirators were not liberals but conservatives.




No, I'm suggesting that people have potential to abuse the system for a variety of reasons. You're the one consumed with the current political aspect, not me.


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Onlinechristopera
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: qman]
    #25581444 - 10/31/18 12:59 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

we got ourselves a worthy right wing 3rd grader. They are coming out of the woodwork.

https://www.newsweek.com/who-jacob-wohl-pro-trump-twitter-personality-mocked-over-fake-mueller-sex-1194630


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: koods]
    #25581604 - 10/31/18 02:11 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

koods said:
Some right wingers offered to pay her money to make a false allegation. She didn’t take their offer and went to the press about the scam. She was offered money and she still didn’t make a false allegation.

I did learn from reading that report that right wingers are perfectly willing to manufacture false allegations against their perceived enemies. The only thing stopping them are the women who don’t want to lie about being raped.




Wow, it's almost like everybody knows that money and attacking enemies are motivations for false allegations against men. Stunning news!!




Based on that article, money and attacking enemies is not sufficient motivation to get women to lie about sexual assault. Where is the outrage from the right about these right wingers trying to slander Mueller? Here we have a cut and dry example of the behavior they falsely accused Democrats of engaging in.

Off the top of my head, this is the third example of right wingers using false rape claims to try and gain an electoral advantage. Project veritas sent a woman to the Washington Post to make allegations against Roy Moore. The plan was to set up the Post and get them to publish fake allegations, but instead the diligent reporters investigating her claims discovered she was a plant working for the right.

Last Month right wingers claimed they set up Michael Avenatti with false claims against kavanaugh. Again, Their attempts failed.




Don't forget Al Franken, that was false as well. In one case a "victem" even came out and said it was fake.

No one said we should believe women, that they never lie, or whatever other rhetoric. What we said is they should be HEARD. Of course women will lie, especially when money and politics is involved. That is why we have investigations.

Qman you are saying we should not listen to a provably FALSE allegation bc it's a women while simultaneously saying we should'nt have listened to, at best, a questionable one (in order to discern the truth). When kavanaugh was accused republicans decried and investigation. When Meuller and Fraken were accused literally the first thing the accused did was call for an investigation. Do you not see the contrast between the two?

I'm confused what your actual position is. Do you think these accusations should not be investigated? The way you act it seems like you think the dems should be investigated and all their claims are real while republican claims are false and should be dismissed outright, but I know you don't actually believe that.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: krypto2000]
    #25581791 - 10/31/18 03:22 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

koods said:
Some right wingers offered to pay her money to make a false allegation. She didn’t take their offer and went to the press about the scam. She was offered money and she still didn’t make a false allegation.

I did learn from reading that report that right wingers are perfectly willing to manufacture false allegations against their perceived enemies. The only thing stopping them are the women who don’t want to lie about being raped.




Wow, it's almost like everybody knows that money and attacking enemies are motivations for false allegations against men. Stunning news!!




Based on that article, money and attacking enemies is not sufficient motivation to get women to lie about sexual assault. Where is the outrage from the right about these right wingers trying to slander Mueller? Here we have a cut and dry example of the behavior they falsely accused Democrats of engaging in.

Off the top of my head, this is the third example of right wingers using false rape claims to try and gain an electoral advantage. Project veritas sent a woman to the Washington Post to make allegations against Roy Moore. The plan was to set up the Post and get them to publish fake allegations, but instead the diligent reporters investigating her claims discovered she was a plant working for the right.

Last Month right wingers claimed they set up Michael Avenatti with false claims against kavanaugh. Again, Their attempts failed.




Don't forget Al Franken, that was false as well. In one case a "victem" even came out and said it was fake.

No one said we should believe women, that they never lie, or whatever other rhetoric. What we said is they should be HEARD. Of course women will lie, especially when money and politics is involved. That is why we have investigations.

Qman you are saying we should not listen to a provably FALSE allegation bc it's a women while simultaneously saying we should'nt have listened to, at best, a questionable one (in order to discern the truth). When kavanaugh was accused republicans decried and investigation. When Meuller and Fraken were accused literally the first thing the accused did was call for an investigation. Do you not see the contrast between the two?

I'm confused what your actual position is. Do you think these accusations should not be investigated? The way you act it seems like you think the dems should be investigated and all their claims are real while republican claims are false and should be dismissed outright, but I know you don't actually believe that.




No, I never stated the women shouldn't be heard, that's ridiculous.  The assumption has been that almost every allegation of sexual assault by a women is true because there's no reason for a woman to lie about it.

If a DA thinks there's a decent amount of evidence to conduct an investigation, then they go forward. I don't think a woman claiming she was sexual assaulted 20 years ago at some party is going to go very far in most cases.

To me this has nothing to do with R's or D's, it's about men being thrown under the bus based on allegations without evidence.


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InvisibleCitizen X
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #25581974 - 10/31/18 04:29 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Victim testimony is solid evidence.




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InvisibleCitizen X
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Citizen X]
    #25581984 - 10/31/18 04:32 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

:puddingpop: this guy comes to mind reading this


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OfflineXUL
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Citizen X]
    #25582000 - 10/31/18 04:39 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

In the Navy, Cosby was a corpsman who was found guilty of shotgunning information on medical records, so we were told by our corpsman instructors


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: qman] * 1
    #25582112 - 10/31/18 05:34 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
No, I never stated the women shouldn't be heard, that's ridiculous.  The assumption has been that almost every allegation of sexual assault by a women is true because there's no reason for a woman to lie about it.





I have not heard anyone actually say that short of strawmen created by the right. I don't doubt you hear what we say and interpret it that way but that's a cognitive bias on your part, not reality. Of course women lie about sexual assault, they're human and humans lie.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: krypto2000]
    #25582233 - 10/31/18 06:27 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
Quote:

qman said:
No, I never stated the women shouldn't be heard, that's ridiculous.  The assumption has been that almost every allegation of sexual assault by a women is true because there's no reason for a woman to lie about it.





I have not heard anyone actually say that short of strawmen created by the right. I don't doubt you hear what we say and interpret it that way but that's a cognitive bias on your part, not reality. Of course women lie about sexual assault, they're human and humans lie.




Honestly, in many cases they believe they were sexually assaulted when they really weren't. It's called the new definition of sexual assault/rape from feminists.

The definition is very broad and includes calling it sexual assault months or years later, even after having a consensual sexual relationship with the same person for a lengthy period of time after the alleged incident.


Edited by qman (10/31/18 06:28 PM)


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: qman]
    #25582272 - 10/31/18 06:40 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

I agree with that, I haven't seen it personally, but I'm sure it happens. I have encountered plenty of girls that are the kind of type to do just that and I avoid them for that very reason (broadly speaking).

I still think they are worth listening to though and on the contrary, and within reason, I think it's worth investigating. The problem I, and I think most on the left have is that during the kavanaugh hearing (and other instances), is that the right seems to want to avoid investigating all together and want us to believe it's false simply b cause they claim it to be so.

The left doesn't want you to believe Ford simply because of her claims, they want her claims to be taken seriously and investigated. If nothing is found then okay, if she is proven a liar even then prosecute her. Is that not reasonable? Do you see the dichotomy differently?

Franken was one of my favorite politicians, one of the very few I thought was actually fit for the job and had our interests in mind AT ALL much less in near totality. However when he had claims against him we, and even he, wanted an actual investigation. Constrast that to kavanaugh or any of the others that have made the headlines and it's simply denial, obstructing, and soap boxing. I get your issues with false claims, but I don't see how that conflicts.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: krypto2000]
    #25582335 - 10/31/18 07:11 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

I disagree about the left not wanting everyone to believe her claims, many were protesting because people questioned the validity of her allegations. They found it insulting that people didn't think she had credibility 30 years after the allegation.

I'm sorry, but making allegations 30 years after the "incident" and not having any evidence does reduce how "serious" the claims are going to be taken by the general public and law enforcement.

As far as investigating claims, who's going to do it?  Can law enforcement investigate claims from 20 years ago everytime a woman makes allegations?  No, the resources aren't there.

Can law enforcement investigate claims of sexual assault that occurred within the past 24-48 hours? Absolutely.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: qman]
    #25582341 - 10/31/18 07:13 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Somehow there were none of these credibility or time window issues with rape allegations from decades ago within the Catholic Church.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: XUL]
    #25582344 - 10/31/18 07:15 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

XUL said:
In the Navy, Cosby was a corpsman who was found guilty of shotgunning information on medical records, so we were told by our corpsman instructors



Why did you choose the gay branch of the military xul?

In the 90s I dated a navy man. We had to be discrete for a while then he didn’t really care. Thing have changed;

https://www.navytimes.com/off-duty/military-culture/2018/10/30/transgender-bodybuilder-sculpts-a-new-life-in-the-navy/


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Offlineqman
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #25582369 - 10/31/18 07:26 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Somehow there were none of these credibility or time window issues with rape allegations from decades ago within the Catholic Church.




Totally different scenarios there. People involved in a religion are hesitant to report any wrongdoings because they believe in the religious hierarchy.  If they do report it, it's handled internally and outside the realm of law enforcement.

One of the main reasons for law enforcement to bust the Catholic Church was their own documented records of the sexual incidents. So there's the solid evidence in many cases. 

Also, many victims (50 plus in many cases) come out against the same perpetrators, that definitely adds credibility to the allegations even decades after the fact.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: qman]
    #25582734 - 10/31/18 10:23 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Oh so suddenly there are valid reasons why people withhold allegations for extended periods of time? How interesting.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #25582735 - 10/31/18 10:24 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Lol when they are boys raped by men. That’s embarrassing.


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