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OfflineLRG
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25000174 - 02/17/18 01:18 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

koods said:
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/16/text-full-mueller-indictment-on-russian-election-case-415670

Page 4. Can't copy text to quote from images.



I didn't see it there.  But you can click on the "TEXT" tab and then copy/paste it for us.




It quite literally says anyone in the Trump campaign that was involved had no idea who they really were, point 6 last sentence.

It also states "they supported the Trump campaign" which is not an accusation of the Trump campaign or the President of being complicit with Russian officials to interfere with the election.

If you go on to the next page and read point 9 it fully indicates these allegations are directed solely at the "intentional conspirators" who  "knowingly and
intentionally conspired to defraud the United States by impairing, obstructing, and defeating the lawful functions of the blah blah blah." Keywords are knowingly and intentionally because they have boxed themselves into not involving the "unwitting" participants. If anyone in the Trump campaign falls under those guidelines of "unwitters", which seems to be the case, evidenced by all the defendants not disclosing their affiliations. Then the collusion narrative is dead on the spot.



--------------------
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Offlinemusiclover420
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25000208 - 02/17/18 01:51 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

musiclover420 said:
It seems clear that it did have some impact on the election though.



That's not what the Deputy Attorney General said:


"There is no allegation in the indictment that the charged conduct altered the outcome of the 2016 election"


Edit:  SirTripAlot beat me to it.




Notice the wording though, "there is no allegation in the indictment"... We will no doubt see many more indictments, and more allegations.

Quote:

At a news conference Friday, Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein repeatedly emphasized that in this particular indictment, there is no allegation that the Russian operatives had any impact on the election's result. He also said that Friday's indictment does not allege that any American knowingly participated in the Russian operation.




Trump used that second one to try and prove he's innocent :lol: But notice they say that specific indictment doesn't allege Americans knowingly participated.

Then shortly after the first american was indicted :rofldrunk:

Quote:

White House press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders said in a statement Friday that the president is "glad to see the Special Counsel's investigation further indicates—that there was NO COLLUSION between the Trump campaign and Russia and that the outcome of the election was not changed or affected."




:lolsy:


--------------------
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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: musiclover420]
    #25000235 - 02/17/18 02:14 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

musiclover420 said:
Notice the wording though, "there is no allegation in the indictment"... We will no doubt see many more indictments, and more allegations.



Oh, I know we will see more allegations.  We've seen one nothing burger after another and there's no reason to think it will stop.

Quote:

musiclover420 said:
Quote:

At a news conference Friday, Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein repeatedly emphasized that in this particular indictment, there is no allegation that the Russian operatives had any impact on the election's result. He also said that Friday's indictment does not allege that any American knowingly participated in the Russian operation.






When have they ever had an impact on the election?  Do you the facebook posts had an impact?

Quote:

musiclover420 said:
Then shortly after the first american was indicted :rofldrunk:

Quote:

White House press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders said in a statement Friday that the president is "glad to see the Special Counsel's investigation further indicates—that there was NO COLLUSION between the Trump campaign and Russia and that the outcome of the election was not changed or affected."




:lolsy:



Why the lolsy?  Have they found any evidence of collusion yet?  If so, can you please post it?


--------------------
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Offlinemusiclover420
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25000267 - 02/17/18 02:39 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Why the lolsy?  Have they found any evidence of collusion yet?  If so, can you please post it?





Because they tried to claim the indictment vindicates them which is clearly BS :lol:

Quote:

He also said that Friday's indictment does not allege that any American knowingly participated in the Russian operation.




They are using that to try and clear their names, and will probably try and call off the investigation once again.

But thankfully it's come to far at this point.


--------------------
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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: musiclover420] * 1
    #25000489 - 02/17/18 07:07 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

There is no evidence at this time that it impacted the election outcome. Obviously they will continue to investigate. What is known is that Russian efforts were carefully targeted, focusing on the "purple" borderline states. Since many of the borderline states that voted for Trump were won by very small margins, this is worth investigating.


--------------------
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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #25000532 - 02/17/18 08:01 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Oh, I know we will see more allegations.  We've seen one nothing burger after another and there's no reason to think it will stop.




Why should it? This is the get Trump train. The appearance of Trump's guilt is much more important than facts. Media insiders have been caught admitting the investigation is a "Trump nothingburger" but just the rough hope that maybe one day someone will come forward or get boxed into implicating Trump in a crime makes every little scrap and crumb of the Muller investigation front page news and spins the anti Trump narrative for another day. I have a family member who informs me that soon I and everyone else will know how dirty Trump really is. He is hopefully optimistic that this investigation will conclude quickly and has his hope fed daily with every new report and tidbit like a salicious novel one can only read a page at a time. Yet many on the left and in the media will be glad to string this thing out as long as possible, nothinburger or not maybe all the way up to 2020. Even if the investigation ends with Trump in the clear the media will have done their best to paint that stain as deeply as possible and the allegations and opinion pieces will pine on about how Trump dodged a bullet, never reaching a point of ad nauseam for those who will never accept the Trump administration. I'm not even sure this novel will prove healthy for the DNC... but it's great fucking news.


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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Rahz]
    #25000569 - 02/17/18 08:42 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Well said Rahz

>The appearance of Trump's guilt is much more important than facts.

That sums up the whole thing, the whole media campaign, mueller, the investigation, everything. Facts mean little to the far left, we already know that. So the scandal sheets keep on, spewing innuendo and salacious inferences. The usual suspects eat it up and even normal people are drawn in by the implication something big is happening. Its the old concept of if there is a lot of smoke there must be some fire somewhere. The media has been generating smoke like mad, but all we end up with is another nothing burger.

What about all the people in the last administration who got caught committing fraud and other crimes? The media either ignored it or made a neutral type mention and let it drop forever. Obama is implicated in the russian uranium scandal that was pushed mightily by hillary who got huge sums from russian sources. But predictably the media has no interest in actual crimes by those people, yet goes into a frenzy over the daily drip of highly exaggerated drama whipped up over the slightest thing. Its all smoke and mirrors to deflect and bamboozle.

I even wonder if part of the get trump campaign is to create a distraction so that hill and 'bummer get a free pass on their wrong doing? I wish trump would just go ahead and fire sessions and get someone who will go after the real bad guys.


--------------------
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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Rahz]
    #25001318 - 02/17/18 03:15 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

krypto2000 said:
16 indictments with numerous charges from identity theft to bank fraud and conspiracy directly linked to election interference is not news? So if it's not news to you does that mean you accept that the Russian's interfered in the 2016 election?




Unless they swung the election it's not big news. If there was no chance it would lead to Trump it wouldn't be the hot topic. That it doesn't implicate Trump is only a minor issue because it's still alluded to in the context of the ongoing get Trump narrative. Every little tidbit of news that's even slightly related to Trump is about Trump.




Unless they altered who won it's not a big deal? Unless the president is implicated it's not important news?

To put it another way 13 individuals and 3 Russian organizations unwittingly influencing members of the campaign, and imo more importantly, large swathes of the voter base to the point where there is literally a political divide in this country, a divide not seen in decades, is not a big deal?

I don't want the president to be implicated, I don't want the leader of our country to be corrupt, much less a foreign agent, knowingly or unknowingly, and I sure do not want a foreign adversary to actively attempt to undermine our democracy whether successfully or not. I don't want to fight with my neighbors. If Trump is innocent that's great, that's sure better than him being guilty, however if these things did happen I would want that knowledge to come out into the public domain, the criminals involved prosecuted, and measures taken place to restore and secure said democracy with the knowledge gained. Can both sides not agree on that at least? That is why I, and I feel everyone, should support the investigation. This isn't a football game where you pick sides, we should all be on the same side regardless what you actually think the outcome will be.


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Stonehenge]
    #25001326 - 02/17/18 03:20 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Well said Rahz

>The appearance of Trump's guilt is much more important than facts.

That sums up the whole thing, the whole media campaign, mueller, the investigation, everything. Facts mean little to the far left, we already know that. So the scandal sheets keep on, spewing innuendo and salacious inferences. The usual suspects eat it up and even normal people are drawn in by the implication something big is happening. Its the old concept of if there is a lot of smoke there must be some fire somewhere. The media has been generating smoke like mad, but all we end up with is another nothing burger.

What about all the people in the last administration who got caught committing fraud and other crimes? The media either ignored it or made a neutral type mention and let it drop forever. Obama is implicated in the russian uranium scandal that was pushed mightily by hillary who got huge sums from russian sources. But predictably the media has no interest in actual crimes by those people, yet goes into a frenzy over the daily drip of highly exaggerated drama whipped up over the slightest thing. Its all smoke and mirrors to deflect and bamboozle.

I even wonder if part of the get trump campaign is to create a distraction so that hill and 'bummer get a free pass on their wrong doing? I wish trump would just go ahead and fire sessions and get someone who will go after the real bad guys.





To be clear, you are calling the Russian conspiracy investigation to be farcical yet the uranium one deal to be a legitimate fraudulent conspiracy?


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: krypto2000]
    #25001429 - 02/17/18 04:18 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

The appearance of Nixon's guilt was more important than the facts, until the facts became known. Nixon said this investigation has been going on for a year with no smoking gun and it's time to end it now. So......


--------------------
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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: krypto2000] * 1
    #25001446 - 02/17/18 04:26 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
Unless they altered who won it's not a big deal? Unless the president is implicated it's not important news?




It's all a matter of context and I think you know what I mean. Sure, it's a big deal but half the country is salivating over the next bit of news. Why? Because they care so much about the integrity of our election process? Without suggesting they don't care I will say, it's not the reason they're salivating. It's not what has made this story "big". 95% of the hype is regarding the possibility Trump will be implicated in a crime and removed from office. Without that, most of America would be somewhat less interested in following this case.

Every new revelation that arises, the primary question is "Does this get us any closer to Trump?" And the media plays it for all it's worth. And that's my point. It doesn't matter if Trump is ever implicated in a crime. It may harm you sensibilities but the suggestion that Trump was involved IS the story. Spy -vs- Spy has been going on for a long time. Russia meddling with our elections? Dastardly! We all know the USA would never stoop to influencing foreign elections.


--------------------
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: krypto2000]
    #25001535 - 02/17/18 05:18 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

>To be clear, you are calling the Russian conspiracy investigation to be farcical yet the uranium one deal to be a legitimate fraudulent conspiracy?

Yes the russian investigation is farcical as far as the unstated but obvious goal of bringing down trump. They may have caught a few small fish but so what? The uranium deal is well known, no conspiracy there. We gave away a large part of our uranium reserves, hill got a large payoff. This has been established. Obama who signed off on it, got paid with huge speaking fees from the companies and countries he helped. Naturally they paid hundreds of thousands or even millions just to hear the sound of his voice and not quid pro quo. :rolleyes:

That hasn't even been investigated let alone to the extent the non existant trump-russia connection has been done. We are supposed to only look at that and not at obama and clinton's crimes.

BJ
>Nixon said this investigation has been going on for a year with no smoking gun and it's time to end it now. So......

got a link to that alleged quote?


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Stonehenge] * 1
    #25001582 - 02/17/18 05:42 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Uranium lol.

Half this country is brainwashed. It's really sad.


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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: koods]
    #25001597 - 02/17/18 05:55 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Uranium lol.

Half this country is brainwashed. It's really sad.




At least at this point it's become blatantly obvious...

What are everyone's thoughts on this:

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/374356-kushner-requests-more-intel-info-than-almost-all-white-house-staff

He has "temporary clearance" as he can't get permanent clearance, and is requesting more intel then half the white house?....

Quote:

President Trump's son-in-law and senior White House adviser Jared Kushner has reportedly requested more intelligence information than almost every other White House official.

The Washington Post reports that Kushner, whose portfolio encompasses issues ranging from the Middle East peace process to modernizing the federal government’s use of technology, has put in more requests for U.S. intelligence information than any White House staffer not working for the National Security Council.

Kushner holds a Top Secret/sensitive compartmented information (SCI) security clearance, the highest level, which allows him to review some of the nation’s most closely-guarded secrets and allows him access to the presidential daily briefing, according to the Post.

He is one of reportedly dozens of White House officials who have been operating with temporary clearances during Trump’s first year in office, and his clearance could be in jeopardy following chief of staff John Kelly’s changes to the clearance process, the Post said.




Then you have this:

http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-kushner-russia-20170527-story.html

Quote:

President Trump's son-in-law and now top White House advisor Jared Kushner proposed a secret back channel between the Kremlin and the Trump transition team during a December meeting with a leading Russian diplomat.

Kushner spoke with Ambassador Sergey Kislyak about creating that line of communication to facilitate sensitive discussions aimed at exploring the incoming administration's options with Russia as it was developing its Syria policy, according to a person familiar with the discussions who spoke with the Associated Press.

The intent was to connect Trump's then-chief national security advisor Michael T. Flynn with Russian military leaders, said the source, who wasn't authorized to publicly discuss private policy deliberations and spoke on condition of anonymity.

Russia, a pivotal player in Syria, has backed Syrian President Bashar Assad, often at the expense of civilians during a long civil war.

The White House did not acknowledge the meeting or Kushner's attendance until March. At the time, a White House official dismissed it as a brief courtesy meeting.

Kushner's involvement in the proposed back channel was first reported by the Washington Post, which said he proposed using Russian diplomatic facilities for the discussions, apparently to make them more difficult to monitor.




....

And I thought the whole "but her emails" thing was a big deal... This seems much much more shady...


--------------------
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You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Stonehenge] * 1
    #25001636 - 02/17/18 06:19 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
We gave away a large part of our uranium reserves, hill got a large payoff. This has been established.




I don't see how that is established any more than that Trump colluded with Russia. We let Russia purchase a stake in a canadian owned mining company, yes, there is no evidence to say we gave it away though. Hillary also received speaking fees and charity donations from members related to the transaction, but there's no evidence it was a quid pro quo. The last part is the only one in question, there's nothing illegal about selling our uranium reserves, although again there's no proof that even happened anyway.

Now to me that looks like a quid pro quo. However so does asking Russia to hack your opponents emails on live tv, hiring a campaign manager with known ties with the Russian government, a campaign manager that was also in debt to Russian banks, who also met with a Russian official and donald juniors son to discuss getting dirt on Hillary, while making prior claims that no one in the campaign had contacts with Russians, trump sold a property for over 2x it's value to a russian oligarch during the midst of the housing crash only for him to never use it and demolish it (a much bigger payoff than uranium one alone), and who is also personally suspected to be in debt to Russian banks because no US banks will lend to him due to bad credit and who suspiciously refuses to release his tax returns as every former US presidential candidate has done in the past, etc, etc.

Then after he won he fires comey for "the Russia thing," tries to fire Meuller, and refuses to enact nearly unanimously bipartisan supported sanctions on Russia for the election meddling attempts. Now do I think that makes him guilty? Yeah, probably, but just like Uranium One I don't know because the investigation is still on going and so far we just have a shit mountain of circumstantial evidence. 


Quote:


That hasn't even been investigated let alone to the extent the non existant trump-russia connection has been done. We are supposed to only look at that and not at obama and clinton's crimes.




The republican controlled house select comittee chaired by Trump's transition team member Devin Nunes, who also released the Memo to try and discredit the FBI, opened an investigation in October of last year. They have not released any updates on the progress since. Per your own logic I guess that means "no evidence of collusion" right?

Quote:


BJ
>Nixon said this investigation has been going on for a year with no smoking gun and it's time to end it now. So......

got a link to that alleged quote?




https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2018/01/30/nixon-watergate-special-prosecutor-state-of-the-union-1974.cnn/video/playlists/trump--nixon-comparisons/


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: krypto2000]
    #25001672 - 02/17/18 06:38 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Apparently the election conspiracy was Obama's fault lol.



I wonder why no one on fox news brought up how Mitch Mcconnell blocked Obamas attempt to help mitigate this. :shrug:



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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: krypto2000]
    #25001678 - 02/17/18 06:41 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
If Trump is innocent that's great, that's sure better than him being guilty, however if these things did happen I would want that knowledge to come out into the public domain, the criminals involved prosecuted, and measures taken place to restore and secure said democracy with the knowledge gained. Can both sides not agree on that at least? That is why I, and I feel everyone, should support the investigation.



Sure, I can agree with that.  I've said many times I'm not against the investigation; just that the investigation thus far has been a whole lot of nothing burgers.  I'm fine with it continuing...


--------------------
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: krypto2000]
    #25001686 - 02/17/18 06:44 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Ho hum a bunch of gossip adding up to... another nothing burger

Lets investigate the uranium deal if you are so sure it was on the up and up. BTW, hill's emails were illegal since she discussed top secret things on an insecure server.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25001690 - 02/17/18 06:46 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I believe you said before that you did not believe the Russian's actually tried to influence the election and that there was no proof, have these indictments changed your opinion there? Why or why not?


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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: musiclover420]
    #25001695 - 02/17/18 06:49 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

musiclover420 said:
What are everyone's thoughts on this:

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/374356-kushner-requests-more-intel-info-than-almost-all-white-house-staff

He has "temporary clearance" as he can't get permanent clearance, and is requesting more intel then half the white house?....



To be more honest, it's not that he "can't" get a permanent clearance, it's that he's still under investigation for one.


Quote:

musiclover420 said:
Then you have this:

Quote:

President Trump's son-in-law and now top White House advisor Jared Kushner proposed a secret back channel between the Kremlin and the Trump transition team




....

And I thought the whole "but her emails" thing was a big deal... This seems much much more shady...



Given the establishment's hatred of Russia for not allowing NATO to seize Crimea, this actually made sense for someone who wasn't yet aligned with the establishment.  But it never happened so it's not a big deal.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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