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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: krypto2000]
    #25016148 - 02/23/18 02:00 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah, if they just spent some pocket money it would have been ok but millions, now that has to be illegal! Stamp out all big money payments to influence the election. Except for the many millions hillary accepted, thats ok. Its ok cause they came from other governments and not russia. Or maybe they did but she has a free pass.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineXUL
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Stonehenge]
    #25016153 - 02/23/18 02:04 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

All this time finding "collusion" and the FBI can't even stop a shooter after red flags.

The FBI needs to get their shit together fast.


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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: XUL]
    #25016162 - 02/23/18 02:07 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Why would the FBI have anything to do with the florida shooting?  That wasn't a federal matter at all.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: krypto2000]
    #25016362 - 02/23/18 03:11 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
Those numbers are between 6 and 14 million. The russian budget for this one operation was $1.25 million per month and has been going on since at least 2014.



The numbers I provided were from 2013, which wasn't even an election year.  My point is that the amount wasn't that much compared to other countries, and especially compared to Hillary's $1.2 billion budget.

The spending was mostly on 'troll farms' (to use the media's term), and social media ads, which as we've seen didn't amount to much outside of the messages Trump was also sending with his $650 million budget.

Again, I'll acknowledge that there were a lot of Russians who were very nervous about Hillary's hatred towards Russia, and didn't want to see her win, and who spoke out against her.  And there were a lot of Americans (myself included) that didn't like that about Hillary either (not to mention the millions she took from giant corporations).

Interestingly, the site fivethirtyeight, which is a very analytical site for politics, says "Russian interference is hard to measure" but "You know what probably did cost Clinton the election? The letter that former FBI Director James Comey sent to Congress on Oct. 28, 2016, and the subsequent media firestorm over it."

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
The numbers you cite are also spent through lobbying. I agree with you that the end effect might be the same, they are exploiting our legal system, but the Russians are outright breaking our laws with their actions; a very important distinction all the same.



You don't think other countries do the same on a larger scale

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
As far as it being tied to the Russian government, afaik, the ad campaign has not, however the DNC hacks have directly unless you have a reason to not believe the dutch intelligence reports citing government officials running the cozy bear hacks. You still dispute that while they did hack the emails that they released them, to me that seems very unreasonable at best, but I have no further evidence to convince you beyond what we've already discussed so I guess we'll just have to wait and see what more comes out as far as that goes.



Again, I'll accept that Russia spied on the DNC, but given Julian Assange's statements that the leaks didn't come from Russia, it's not unreasonable to assume they didn't.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Stonehenge] * 2
    #25016456 - 02/23/18 03:47 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Yeah, if they just spent some pocket money it would have been ok but millions, now that has to be illegal! Stamp out all big money payments to influence the election. Except for the many millions hillary accepted, thats ok. Its ok cause they came from other governments and not russia. Or maybe they did but she has a free pass.




Or, you know, it's because of the laws. If Russia spent billions lobbying then that would be legal. That's not what they did. You must be a grain farmer cause you sure have a lot of straw.


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #25016466 - 02/23/18 03:50 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

krypto2000 said:
The numbers you cite are also spent through lobbying. I agree with you that the end effect might be the same, they are exploiting our legal system, but the Russians are outright breaking our laws with their actions; a very important distinction all the same.



You don't think other countries do the same on a larger scale

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
As far as it being tied to the Russian government, afaik, the ad campaign has not, however the DNC hacks have directly unless you have a reason to not believe the dutch intelligence reports citing government officials running the cozy bear hacks. You still dispute that while they did hack the emails that they released them, to me that seems very unreasonable at best, but I have no further evidence to convince you beyond what we've already discussed so I guess we'll just have to wait and see what more comes out as far as that goes.



Again, I'll accept that Russia spied on the DNC, but given Julian Assange's statements that the leaks didn't come from Russia, it's not unreasonable to assume they didn't.




That's whataboutism though. Israel doing it doesn't make it okay that Russian did it, it just means Russia isn't the only problem; I fully agree. I also think we should change the laws because Lobbying is a big problem whether it's foreign or domestic.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: krypto2000]
    #25016472 - 02/23/18 03:52 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

>I also think we should change the laws because Lobbying is a big problem whether it's foreign or domestic.

A good idea


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Stonehenge]
    #25016476 - 02/23/18 03:53 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah, screw that pesky first amendment.  Freedom of speech is so overrated.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Enlil]
    #25016520 - 02/23/18 04:10 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
Israel doing it doesn't make it okay that Russian did it, it just means Russia isn't the only problem



I didn't say it was ok.  I just said it was most likely concerned Russian citizens wondering why Hillary hated Russia so much (I think we all know the answer - they foiled her Crimean plan).


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25016562 - 02/23/18 04:27 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Falcon, the $15 Mil came from WHERE if it didn't come from Russia?

A 400 lb fatman living in his mother's basement?

FBI, CIA, NSA... all say Russia.

Then there's you and tiny hands.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25016623 - 02/23/18 04:52 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

krypto2000 said:
Israel doing it doesn't make it okay that Russian did it, it just means Russia isn't the only problem



I didn't say it was ok.  I just said it was most likely concerned Russian citizens wondering why Hillary hated Russia so much (I think we all know the answer - they foiled her Crimean plan).




Her Crimean plan? Wtf are you taking about


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Offlinemusiclover420
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: sweeper54]
    #25016658 - 02/23/18 05:09 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

musiclover420 said:
The list was a literal copy/paste from a Russian Forbes list of some of the richest Russians :lol:



So if you're a rich Russian you deserve to be sanctioned?  :wtf:




That is the whole point.... Trump's admin was given plenty of time to compile a list of shady Russian's to sanction, and they pushed the deadline then released a copy paste list from Forbes.... Then decided they don't even need to enforce the sanctions as "the threat of sanctions is enough of a deterrent"...

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I'm not even denying that Russian citizens weighed in on the US election.  Again, I'm just saying there is no evidence of Russian Government interference.




Except that there are definite ties to the Kremlin and Putin in all of this... Who do you think hired Russian hackers? :lol: Who do you think supports Russian oligarchs into success?

Have you been paying any attention?

Quote:

sweeper54 said:
Falcon, the $15 Mil came from WHERE if it didn't come from Russia?

A 400 lb fatman living in his mother's basement?

FBI, CIA, NSA... all say Russia.

Then there's you and tiny hands.




The Dutch also said russia, and literally have video's of Russian hackers attacking US servers :lol:

http://www.zdnet.com/article/dutch-spies-tipped-off-nsa-that-russia-was-hacking-the-democrats-new-reports-claim/

Then Trump continued to deny the hackings, which led to this info being leaked to refute his claims, which in turn compromised the ongoing Dutch efforts to spy on Russian Hackers...


--------------------
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You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: sweeper54]
    #25016659 - 02/23/18 05:10 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

sweeper54 said:
Falcon, the $15 Mil came from WHERE if it didn't come from Russia?

A 400 lb fatman living in his mother's basement?

FBI, CIA, NSA... all say Russia.

Then there's you and tiny hands.



According to the indictment:
Quote:

Defendant ORGANIZATION received funding for its operations from Defendant YEVGENIY VIKTOROVICH PRIGOZHIN and companies he controlled, including Defendants CONCORD MANAGEMENT AND CONSULTING LLC and CONCORD CATERING (collectively “CONCORD”).

By in or around September 2016, the ORGANIZATION’s monthly budget for Project Lakhta submitted to CONCORD exceeded 73 million Russian rubles (over 1,250,000 U.S. dollars)




I indicated above the money came from the "Hobby Farm of a fanatical Russian oligarch and ultra-nationalist, Yevgeny Prigozhin, who has a great big beef against Imperial Washington's demonization of Russia and Vlad Putin."

Not sure how you took that to mean "A 400 lb fatman living in his mother's basement" (unless maybe you know more about Yevgeniy Prigozhin than I do).


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (02/23/18 06:19 PM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: koods]
    #25016665 - 02/23/18 05:14 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Her Crimean plan? Wtf are you taking about



Fine, call it Obama's Crimean plan if you want to nit pick.  But she obviously supported the plan.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25016695 - 02/23/18 05:32 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Oligarch=Putin

They don't do anything without Putin's blessing, if they do they end of dead or in jail.

And that would go for intervening in US elections


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: musiclover420]
    #25016706 - 02/23/18 05:37 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

musiclover420 said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I'm just saying there is no evidence of Russian Government interference.



Except that there are definite ties to the Kremlin and Putin in all of this... Who do you think hired Russian hackers?



Again, we don't know that Russia released the DNC emails to Wikileaks.  Julian Assange says they didn't.

Quote:

musiclover420 said:
Who do you think supports Russian oligarchs into success?



Huh?  Yevgeniy Prigozhin was a self made restaurateur.

Quote:

musiclover420 said:
Have you been paying any attention?



Yes.  Have you?

Quote:

sweeper54 said:
The Dutch also said russia, and literally have video's of Russian hackers attacking US servers :lol:

http://www.zdnet.com/article/dutch-spies-tipped-off-nsa-that-russia-was-hacking-the-democrats-new-reports-claim/



Yes, you're the one not paying attention.  I acknowledged that here.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: sweeper54]
    #25016712 - 02/23/18 05:39 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

sweeper54 said:
Oligarch=Putin

They don't do anything without Putin's blessing, if they do they end of dead or in jail.

And that would go for intervening in US elections



Ok, it's VERY clear you know NOTHING about Russia.  That is just propaganda that is so ridiculous that it belongs in the kindeegarten forum.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25016753 - 02/23/18 05:53 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

This all goes back to Putin, no oligarch is going to freelance intervening in US elections.

"March Madness" is going to take on a whole new meaning after this year.


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Offlinemusiclover420
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25016754 - 02/23/18 05:54 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Again, we don't know that Russia released the DNC emails to Wikileaks.  Julian Assange says they didn't.





We may not know for sure but Trump literally called for hackers to target Hillary and release her emails during the campaign :lol:

Also do you really think we should take Julian's word at face value? I don't...

http://time.com/4450282/wikileaks-julian-assange-dnc-hack-criticism/

Quote:

The episode — coming on the heels of the DNC emails Assange held for release on the eve of the Democratic convention — is seen by critics of WikiLeaks as a sign that once lauded enterprise no longer qualifies as an independent platform promoting openness. “It’s become something else,” says John Wonderlich, executive director of the Sunlight Foundation, a Washington nonprofit that advocates for transparency. “It’s not striving for objectivity. It’s more careless. When they publish information it appears to be in service of some specific goal, of retribution, at the expense of the individual.”




--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



Edited by musiclover420 (02/23/18 05:55 PM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: sweeper54]
    #25016769 - 02/23/18 06:02 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

sweeper54 said:
This all goes back to Putin, no oligarch is going to freelance intervening in US elections.



Do you even realize Russia is no longer a closed communist country?  It is an open capitalist country filled with McDonalds and other giant global corporations.

Oligarchs can do anything they damn well please except break Russian law.  Seriously, take this shit to the kindeegarten forum.

I've made two trips to Russia in the last two years, each trip lasting over 3 weeks.  I have many friends that grew up in Russia.  I know a little better than you how things are over there.  Putin is not a superhero that spies on 150 million citizens at a time, controlling their every move.  Absolutely kindeegarten.  :facepalm:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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