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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: musiclover420]
    #25014231 - 02/22/18 07:07 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

musiclover420 said:
So very likely there's a lot more going on behind the scenes, who knows how many more indictments there already are that are just still sealed by court order :strokebeard:



Probably none, because we've been hearing about them in real time from the Washington Post.  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: krypto2000]
    #25014248 - 02/22/18 07:12 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Did you read the article or not?  :shrug:



I did after you had asked me to.



Did you catch any lies?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinemusiclover420
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25014251 - 02/22/18 07:13 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

musiclover420 said:
So very likely there's a lot more going on behind the scenes, who knows how many more indictments there already are that are just still sealed by court order :strokebeard:



Probably none, because we've been hearing about them in real time from the Washington Post.  :shrug:




I don't think you've been paying much attention then...

We hear about some in real time, others take weeks. Some are probably still sealed, none of us really can say as much of it is classified so we only know what's been leaked.


--------------------
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I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25014300 - 02/22/18 07:27 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Have you read the indictment?  Or are you just believing what the media tells you about it?


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Offlinemusiclover420
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Enlil]
    #25014312 - 02/22/18 07:32 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Have you read the indictment?  Or are you just believing what the media tells you about it?




I am willing to bet the latter.

It is like 37 pages after all :lol:


--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: musiclover420] * 1
    #25014327 - 02/22/18 07:36 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

I've read it a few times.


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Offlinemusiclover420
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Enlil]
    #25014353 - 02/22/18 07:43 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I've read it a few times.




I need to read the full thing still, but I've seen overviews from a few sources at least.


--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: musiclover420] * 3
    #25014373 - 02/22/18 07:49 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

A 1.2 million dollar a month operation with over a hundred employees dedicated to swaying our election doesn't sound like Nothing burger to me :shrug:


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Offlinemusiclover420
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Enlil]
    #25014391 - 02/22/18 07:55 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
A 1.2 million dollar a month operation with over a hundred employees dedicated to swaying our election doesn't sound like Nothing burger to me :shrug:




They are still around too... What are your thoughts on the Russia Sanctions Trump decided to just not enforce?

From what I've read it sounds like Obama ramped up the sanctions in response to the election meddling and or some other Russia BS, but I haven't read up on it too much.


--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: musiclover420] * 2
    #25014419 - 02/22/18 08:05 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Trump is Putin's bitch.


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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Enlil]
    #25014427 - 02/22/18 08:08 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Trump is Putin's bitch.




But Putin told Trump he didn't meddle in the election :rofldrunk:


--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Enlil]
    #25015102 - 02/23/18 03:05 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Have you read the indictment?  Or are you just believing what the media tells you about it?



I read it and it's exactly what I've been saying it was - Russians hoping Hillary doesn't get elected because of her hatred towards Russia.

Quote:

Enlil said:
A 1.2 million dollar a month operation with over a hundred employees dedicated to swaying our election doesn't sound like Nothing burger to me :shrug:



I must have missed how Trump was involved.  Or how the Russian Government was involved.  This is an investigation into Trump Russia collusion after all.

It seems like Democrats, and even yourself, would be grateful if the investigation finds ANY wrongdoing of any kind from within Trump's circle or ANY support from private Russian citizens against Hillary in favor of Trump.  I'm not saying those didn't happen, I'm saying Trump and Russia haven't been caught colluding.

Quote:

musiclover420 said:
it sounds like Obama ramped up the sanctions in response to the election meddling and or some other Russia BS, but I haven't read up on it too much.



The Obama sanctions were initially for not giving Crimea to NATO, and then more sanctions for spying on the DNC.  Trump then passed even more sanctions against Russia for alleged interference.

Quote:

Enlil said:
Trump is Putin's bitch.



Trump knows exactly what happened in Crimea.  A US supported coup followed by Crimeans saying they want no part of it, and Russia not wanting to give up their last warm water base to NATO.

Not being aggressive towards Russia isn't the same as being Putin's bitch, in my opinion.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25015117 - 02/23/18 03:18 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The Obama sanctions were initially for not giving Crimea to NATO, and then more sanctions for spying on the DNC.  Trump then passed even more sanctions against Russia for alleged interference.





The DNC and RNC were both hacked, kind of suspicious how only the former's emails got leaked :strokebeard:

Trump didn't pass the sanctions, they were nearly unanimously passed by 2 branches of government and trump signed them into effect, then decided not to bother enforcing them....


--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: musiclover420]
    #25015131 - 02/23/18 03:29 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

musiclover420 said:
The DNC and RNC were both hacked, kind of suspicious how only the former's emails got leaked :strokebeard:



There is no evidence that the RNC was hacked; only that there was a failed hack attemp.

Quote:

musiclover420 said:
Trump didn't pass the sanctions, they were nearly unanimously passed by 2 branches of government and trump signed them into effect, then decided not to bother enforcing them....



If Trump signed them in into effect, how does he go about not enforcing them (not saying you're wrong; just not understanding how this works)?  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25015153 - 02/23/18 04:04 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Pretty sure it wasn't a total failure, and I doubt all the details are public either:

https://www.wired.com/2017/01/russia-hacked-older-republican-emails-fbi-director-says/

Quote:

SINCE HACKERS STOLE emails from the Democratic National Committee and dispersed them across the internet last summer, the world has waited for a parallel leak of Republican secrets. Now on the other side of the election, that second reveal still hasn't materialized. But FBI director James Comey has now told Congress new details of the Republican prong of those political intrusions, which US intelligence now believe were carried out by the Russian government: The attackers penetrated GOP organizations, and also stole Republican National Committee emails, albeit ones less current than those stolen from the DNC.




So they just got some older emails allegedly, but once again I doubt all the info is public yet. So we can assume that is all they got, but only time will tell :shrug:

Quote:

If Trump signed them in into effect, how does he go about not enforcing them (not saying you're wrong; just not understanding how this works)?  :shrug:





http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/timeline-trumps-delays-russia-sanctions/story?id=50733408

Quote:

On Aug. 2, with no public ceremony, Trump signed the bill -- but released two blistering statements with his signature, calling the legislation "significantly flawed" and saying it included "a number of clearly unconstitutional provisions."

"We have to follow the law, and the president signing into law is something that we certainly will follow," State Department spokesperson Heather Nauert told ABC News on Aug. 3.

Oct. 1 deadline blows by
For weeks, however, the Trump administration did not fulfill its obligations.

The law gave the Trump administration staggered deadlines to begin implementation -- the first being Oct. 1 for the Russian portion. By then, the administration was supposed to have authorized particular agencies to identify Russian defense and intelligence entities under the new sanctions that the U.S. would sanction individuals and companies for doing business with.

Shortly before the deadline, that authorization was given, but for weeks the list of Russians was missing. The State Department said that it and the Treasury were working together to develop guidance for partner countries and private companies to help them avoid violating the new sanctions, and that caused the delay.

Sens. John McCain, R-Ariz., and Ben Cardin, D-Md. -- top Republican and Democratic senators on foreign policy -- wrote a letter to the administration, wondering if they were stalling: "They’ve had plenty of time to get their act together."

"We are working to try to complete that process," Nauert said Tuesday, adding that "it’s pretty complicated, that it can take some time, that they're working to complete the process and provide the public guidance to -- certainly to the relevant people just as soon as possible."

The Iran portion of the law, by contrast, has been implemented on time so far. On Oct. 13, the administration designated the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps for supporting terrorism "consistent with that requirement of CAATSA," according to the Treasury.




Quote:

Finally, after public and private prodding by Republican members of Congress, including Corker and McCain, the administration sent to Congress its list and guidance Thursday night.

After Tillerson signed off on the guidance Thursday morning, Deputy Secretary of State John Sullivan called Corker at 2:30 p.m. to relay it to him, before the department informed other senior members of Congress.

The State Department plans to release that guidance publicly "shortly," according to Nauert, who said it is also informing private industry and allied countries.

The list, obtained by ABC News, includes 39 entities ranging from aircraft and helicopter manufacturers to engineering firms, a shipyard to Russia’s spy services, the FSB and the SVR. But releasing it does not mean these sanctions have been fully implemented. While there is no asset freeze for the members of the list, individuals and businesses that are engaged in "significant transactions" with them will be subject to sanctions starting Jan. 29, 2018.




The list was a literal copy/paste from a Russian Forbes list of some of the richest Russians :lol:


--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #25015380 - 02/23/18 07:34 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

I must have missed how Trump was involved.  Or how the Russian Government was involved.  This is an investigation into Trump Russia collusion after all.



Maybe for you, it is.  My understanding is that Mueller was tasked with investigating Russian interference in the election.  What you keep calling a "nothing burger" seems to be a multimillion dollar operation involving hundreds and targeting our electoral process.  Why are you so quick to dismiss that as insignificant?

I get that it's just an indictment, and people are innocent until proven guilty.  It might turn out that it is a nothing burger after trial.  Today, however, to the extent that we know anything at all, it appears to be a significant issue.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: musiclover420]
    #25015769 - 02/23/18 11:19 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

musiclover420 said:
The list was a literal copy/paste from a Russian Forbes list of some of the richest Russians :lol:



So if you're a rich Russian you deserve to be sanctioned?  :wtf:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #25015801 - 02/23/18 11:34 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
A 1.2 million dollar a month operation with over a hundred employees dedicated to swaying our election doesn't sound like Nothing burger to me :shrug:




The Russians swayed me, I was a hardcore Clinton supporter and then went to Facebook and voted for Trump.  :crankey:

That "doesn't sound like Nothing burder to me".


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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Enlil]
    #25015805 - 02/23/18 11:35 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I must have missed how Trump was involved.  Or how the Russian Government was involved.  This is an investigation into Trump Russia collusion after all.



My understanding is that Mueller was tasked with investigating Russian interference in the election.



More specifically, he was tasked to oversee the "FBI investigation of Russian government efforts to influence the 2016 presidential election and related matters".

Quote:

Enlil said:
What you keep calling a "nothing burger" seems to be a multimillion dollar operation involving hundreds and targeting our electoral process.  Why are you so quick to dismiss that as insignificant?



Because that's small potatoes compared to what other countries spend to influence politics in the US (these are just 2013 numbers):

1.United Arab Emirates, $14.1 million
2.Germany, $12 million
3.Canada, $11.2 million
4.Saudia Arabia, $11.2 million
5.Mexico, $6.1 million

Quote:

Enlil said:
I get that it's just an indictment, and people are innocent until proven guilty.  It might turn out that it is a nothing burger after trial.  Today, however, to the extent that we know anything at all, it appears to be a significant issue.



I'm not even denying that Russian citizens weighed in on the US election.  Again, I'm just saying there is no evidence of Russian Government interference.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25016005 - 02/23/18 01:07 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
What you keep calling a "nothing burger" seems to be a multimillion dollar operation involving hundreds and targeting our electoral process.  Why are you so quick to dismiss that as insignificant?



Because that's small potatoes compared to what other countries spend to influence politics in the US (these are just 2013 numbers):

1.United Arab Emirates, $14.1 million
2.Germany, $12 million
3.Canada, $11.2 million
4.Saudia Arabia, $11.2 million
5.Mexico, $6.1 million

Quote:

Enlil said:
I get that it's just an indictment, and people are innocent until proven guilty.  It might turn out that it is a nothing burger after trial.  Today, however, to the extent that we know anything at all, it appears to be a significant issue.



I'm not even denying that Russian citizens weighed in on the US election.  Again, I'm just saying there is no evidence of Russian Government interference.




Those numbers are between 6 and 14 million. The russian budget for this one operation was $1.25 million per month and has been going on since at least 2014. Just taking that yearly it would equate to $15 million, higher than any of the other countries you listed. That doesn't include the money spent on the DNC hacks or anything else we've yet to find out about either. The numbers you cite are also spent through lobbying. I agree with you that the end effect might be the same, they are exploiting our legal system, but the Russians are outright breaking our laws with their actions; a very important distinction all the same.

As far as it being tied to the Russian government, afaik, the ad campaign has not, however the DNC hacks have directly unless you have a reason to not believe the dutch intelligence reports citing government officials running the cozy bear hacks. You still dispute that while they did hack the emails that they released them, to me that seems very unreasonable at best, but I have no further evidence to convince you beyond what we've already discussed so I guess we'll just have to wait and see what more comes out as far as that goes.


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