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Offlinekrypto2000
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Registered: 12/05/06
Posts: 11,579
Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25008051 - 02/20/18 01:01 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

krypto2000 said:
Facts are facts, regardless of the source they should not be ignored, of course not.



No one denies the DNC emails are real, and the DNC Chair was forced to resign as a result.

Did it matter if Russia, Seth Rich, or another person leaked them?

As for the Facebook ads, why don't you post an example of one that we should simply ignore if it came from Russia, but read if it came from an American?  I think it doesn't really matter just the same.  Reality is reality, and bullshit is bullshit no matter what the source.




I haven't looked into the ads, from the few I've seen they seem more or less innocuous. It's thing like this that more so concern me:

Quote:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/02/17/a-former-russian-troll-speaks-it-was-like-being-in-orwells-world/?utm_term=.c659550f879d

I arrived there, and I immediately felt like a character in the book “1984” by George Orwell — a place where you have to write that white is black and black is white. Your first feeling, when you ended up there, was that you were in some kind of factory that turned lying, telling untruths, into an industrial assembly line. The volumes were colossal — there were huge numbers of people, 300 to 400, and they were all writing absolute untruths. It was like being in Orwell’s world.


You got a list of topics to write about. Every piece of news was taken care of by three trolls each, and the three of us would make up an act. We had to make it look like we were not trolls but real people. One of the three trolls would write something negative about the news, the other two would respond, “You are wrong,” and post links and such. And the negative one would eventually act convinced. Those are the kinds of plays we had to act out.




That's a very deceiving tactic, I can even see myself falling for that and I tend to question and fact check everything. There's only so much time in the day though. Imagine those that tend to just believe anything that corresponds with their existing beliefs as is and doesn't question it much less verify the veracity there of?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: koods]
    #25008152 - 02/20/18 01:40 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
I wonder what the RNC emails were saying about Trump. What kind of bullsht were the republicans up to. We know they were OPENLY conspiring against trump.



Agreed.  That'd be VERY interesting information. 

Quote:

koods said:
But we will never know because the hacks were designed to be asymmetric



No, that's not true.  We KNOW the Russians attempted to hack the RNC as well, but either their security was better or people on the inside were more loyal or less careless.  Why do you keep making things up?

And we don't even know if it was the Russians who released the DNC emails.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: koods]
    #25008156 - 02/20/18 01:42 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

koods said:
he (Trump) acts like he's being blackmailed. Never a bad word about Putin. So strange



Did that become a requirement of The President after Hillary said she dislikes Putin?




Trump treats Putin differently than anyone else. Im not talking about dislike. Trump insults everyone. Except Putin.



No, Trump doesn't insult "everyone".  Quit making shit up.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: krypto2000]
    #25008170 - 02/20/18 01:46 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Conspiring with russia to do what? To let them run ads? They don't need permission, they back whatever horse they like best. Same as saudi arabia when they backed hillary or any other group.

The whole thing doesn't even rise to a mole hill, more like a small ant hill.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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Offlineqman
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: krypto2000] * 1
    #25008236 - 02/20/18 02:07 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
It sounds like you're saying you might be lacking in higher reasoning and critical thinking skills. That should have been your parents, community, and the education systems responsibility, but if they failed you then unfortunately it's now your own. Maybe you could find a local meetup group that might help with fostering those.




I watched some BBC on politics the other day, I was potentially influenced by a foreign government, how do I know if I'm safe?  It doesn't seem like you have any answers other than I must use my OWN JUDGMENT. How do you expect free thinking adults to do that?


Edited by qman (02/20/18 02:42 PM)


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25008243 - 02/20/18 02:09 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

koods said:
I wonder what the RNC emails were saying about Trump. What kind of bullsht were the republicans up to. We know they were OPENLY conspiring against trump.



Agreed.  That'd be VERY interesting information. 

Quote:

koods said:
But we will never know because the hacks were designed to be asymmetric



No, that's not true.  We KNOW the Russians attempted to hack the RNC as well, but either their security was better or people on the inside were more loyal or less careless.  Why do you keep making things up?

And we don't even know if it was the Russians who released the DNC emails.




The Russians hacked the emails. They released them.

They were on trumps side. The wouldnt release harmful documents


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: krypto2000]
    #25008257 - 02/20/18 02:14 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
I haven't looked into the ads, from the few I've seen they seem more or less innocuous.



I agree.

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
It's thing like this that more so concern me:

Quote:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/02/17/a-former-russian-troll-speaks-it-was-like-being-in-orwells-world/?utm_term=.c659550f879d

I arrived there, and I immediately felt like a character in the book “1984” by George Orwell — a place where you have to write that white is black and black is white. Your first feeling, when you ended up there, was that you were in some kind of factory that turned lying, telling untruths, into an industrial assembly line. The volumes were colossal — there were huge numbers of people, 300 to 400, and they were all writing absolute untruths. It was like being in Orwell’s world.


You got a list of topics to write about. Every piece of news was taken care of by three trolls each, and the three of us would make up an act. We had to make it look like we were not trolls but real people. One of the three trolls would write something negative about the news, the other two would respond, “You are wrong,” and post links and such. And the negative one would eventually act convinced. Those are the kinds of plays we had to act out.




That's a very deceiving tactic, I can even see myself falling for that and I tend to question and fact check everything. There's only so much time in the day though. Imagine those that tend to just believe anything that corresponds with their existing beliefs as is and doesn't question it much less verify the veracity there of?



It sounds like this guy was working for a Russian businessman to add comments to Russian news articles to either support or contradict the message.  It's unclear whether this has anything to do with the Russian Government.  Regardless, let's say it's true, and that a Russian troll got assigned to work in the Shroomery.  Do you think people here pay any attention to the 'Stonebots' who keep saying the same thing over and over but who can't support their argument?  I don't think so.

On the other hand, let's say you or I are getting paid by Russia to post here (I should apply to get paid to do what I love!) - if we have a message that we can support with evidence, what's the harm of us posting here?  It's just an open exchange of ideas - that doesn't scare me at all.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: koods]
    #25008270 - 02/20/18 02:18 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
The Russians hacked the emails. They released them.

They were on trumps side. The wouldnt release harmful documents



That's your THEORY that you haven't proven.  I'm not interested in opinions.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25008418 - 02/20/18 02:52 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

krypto2000 said:
I haven't looked into the ads, from the few I've seen they seem more or less innocuous.



I agree.

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
It's thing like this that more so concern me:

Quote:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/02/17/a-former-russian-troll-speaks-it-was-like-being-in-orwells-world/?utm_term=.c659550f879d

I arrived there, and I immediately felt like a character in the book “1984” by George Orwell — a place where you have to write that white is black and black is white. Your first feeling, when you ended up there, was that you were in some kind of factory that turned lying, telling untruths, into an industrial assembly line. The volumes were colossal — there were huge numbers of people, 300 to 400, and they were all writing absolute untruths. It was like being in Orwell’s world.


You got a list of topics to write about. Every piece of news was taken care of by three trolls each, and the three of us would make up an act. We had to make it look like we were not trolls but real people. One of the three trolls would write something negative about the news, the other two would respond, “You are wrong,” and post links and such. And the negative one would eventually act convinced. Those are the kinds of plays we had to act out.




That's a very deceiving tactic, I can even see myself falling for that and I tend to question and fact check everything. There's only so much time in the day though. Imagine those that tend to just believe anything that corresponds with their existing beliefs as is and doesn't question it much less verify the veracity there of?



It sounds like this guy was working for a Russian businessman to add comments to Russian news articles to either support or contradict the message.  It's unclear whether this has anything to do with the Russian Government.  Regardless, let's say it's true, and that a Russian troll got assigned to work in the Shroomery.  Do you think people here pay any attention to the 'Stonebots' who keep saying the same thing over and over but who can't support their argument?  I don't think so.

On the other hand, let's say you or I are getting paid by Russia to post here (I should apply to get paid to do what I love!) - if we have a message that we can support with evidence, what's the harm of us posting here?  It's just an open exchange of ideas - that doesn't scare me at all.




I agree with you that stonebots(lol) don't do much, if anything, on the shroomery which is why I really like this place for open discussion. The community is rather small and it's not difficult to keep up with everyone, you recognize people, etc.

Where I see this tactic having an effect though are on sites like reddit, heavily trafficked forums like abovetopsecret, and youtube comments, social media, etc. There you are literally flooded with information, opinions, facts, lies, legit sources, and fake sources; it's simply hard to keep up. There's not enough time to fact check everything, I could definitely see someone forming false beliefs within those systems especially as you delve deeper you reinforce those beliefs. On reddit for instance /r/politics clearly has a left leaning, lots of the 'news' are opinion articles, /r/conspiracy is the opposite. With youtube it depends what channels/videos you watch (and in turn google recommends more based on what you watch further re-enforcing those beliefs).

Many people get their news from those types of places. I mean I get my news largely from reddit, but I always verify anything remotely suspicious with multiple sources, I check for opposing views in different subreddits, independent research, etc. I used to, years ago, exclusively read the comment section on reddit even and not even bother reading the story but I could tell over time that it became less and less reliable. There were more bots, more gaming, more hive mind/group think, etc.

edit: I guess at the end of the day I do not so much worry that someone will change their minds so much as delve too far down a path that they otherwise wouldn't. If I only hung out in /r/politics I'd probably be a militant ANTIFA right now, instead I purposefully try to talk with and understand those against me. The result is that I often change my mind, I actually have come to understand some right wingers positions, and while I'm still rather far to the left, I do not view it so much as an us vs them as I otherwise would and more of a 'we need to understand each other.'

And remember after all, their goal as stated is to divide us and cause chaos and in fighting. That doesn't mean without them we would all agree, but maybe we would be more willing to sit down and have civil discussions as opposed to yelling and spitting at each other about emails, collusion, benghazi, etc etc.


Edited by krypto2000 (02/20/18 02:59 PM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: krypto2000]
    #25008434 - 02/20/18 03:00 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Fair enough.  I rarely pay attention to any of the comments after the articles I read, as I assume random posters aren't credible.

Perhaps the question is whether we want to make paid speech like that illegal.  :shrug:

Edit:  In response to your add, I personally don't think we're any more divided than we were under Obama.  Hard to know though.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: krypto2000]
    #25008435 - 02/20/18 03:01 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Looks like another small fish got hooked by Meuller:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-20/skadden-arps-lawyer-is-charged-with-role-in-u-s-russia-probe


U.S. Special Counsel Robert Mueller intensified legal pressure on ex-Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort and his deputy, Rick Gates, by filing a false-statements case against a lawyer who did Ukraine-related work with the two men.

Prosecutors accused the attorney, Alex van der Zwaan, of lying to the FBI and Mueller’s office about conversations related to a report supporting the legitimacy of a Ukrainian criminal prosecution of a former prime minister. That report has already come under the glare of Mueller’s team, which has previously accused Manafort and Gates of secretly funneling $4 million through offshore accounts to pay for it.


The two pages of accusations against van der Zwaan, filed on Feb. 16 and unsealed Tuesday, came in the form of a criminal information, which prosecutors typically file before a guilty plea. Van der Zwaan, 33, is scheduled for what the government calls a “plea agreement hearing” on Tuesday afternoon before the same federal judge in Washington overseeing the indictment of Manafort and Gates.




On Oct. 27, prosecutors accused Manafort and Gates of hiding their lobbying work in Ukraine and laundering millions of dollars. The two also failed to disclose lobbying work on behalf of then-Ukraine President Viktor Yanukovych and then tried to conceal that work as it came to light in August 2016, the U.S. said. Manafort left the Trump presidential campaign that month.

A month after Manafort’s departure, van der Zwaan communicated about the report with Gates and a second unidentified person, prosecutors said on Tuesday, and then lied about it when the FBI and Mueller’s office later asked about the exchanges.

Mueller, in his probe of Russian collusion in the 2016 presidential election, accused 13 Russians on Feb. 16 of a sophisticated disinformation campaign that targeted U.S. voters. Three others, including former Trump National Security Adviser Michael Flynn, have pleaded guilty and are cooperating.

Van der Zwaan was an associate in the London office of Skadden, Arps, Slate Meagher & Flom. The information doesn’t say whether he is cooperating with prosecutors or why he allegedly lied to the government.

Last year, van der Zwaan married the daughter of Russian oligarch German Khan, according to the London Tatler. Khan is a shareholder of Alfa Group, a Russian banking and investment concern, and a board member at LetterOne Holdings, the investment vehicle set up by the founders of Alfa Group. A spokesman for Khan didn’t immediately provide a comment.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25008454 - 02/20/18 03:09 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Fair enough.  I rarely pay attention to any of the comments after the articles I read, as I assume random posters aren't credible.

Perhaps the question is whether we want to make paid speech like that illegal.  :shrug:

Edit:  In response to your add, I personally don't think we're any more divided than we were under Obama.  Hard to know though.




I sure feel more divided, but that's not really something I can quantify so who knows? I've lost friends, I've had heated debates with my parents (which we did under Obama too), and to me it seems like violence and social unrest has risen. I mean was there anything like the charlottseville rally or similar events under Obama that actually resulted in both sides fighting and killing each other? That's in my backyard so, literally, it hit pretty close to home to me. Maybe there was and I just do not remember it, I was not as politically active back then so it may be cognitive bias.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #25008477 - 02/20/18 03:18 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

That has NOTHING at all to do with Russia (does it?)  As I've said many times, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Trump's team was found guilty of a lot of things.  But collaboration with the Russian Government doesn't appear to be one of them.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: krypto2000] * 3
    #25008479 - 02/20/18 03:19 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

That's why I post here. The forum is impersonal to a degree. What's the worst that can happen, someone rating you 0 mushies, ha? I have a strained relationship with some family, so hearing a blow by blow of the Fox News channel, will only make me waste brain cells...I will just eat the turkey, thank you.


There are countless political forums online, but I like this little corner of the internet.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: krypto2000]
    #25008482 - 02/20/18 03:22 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
I sure feel more divided, but that's not really something I can quantify so who knows? I've lost friends, I've had heated debates with my parents (which we did under Obama too), and to me it seems like violence and social unrest has risen.



I don't know either, but I believe crime statistics show things are getting better.

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
I mean was there anything like the charlottseville rally or similar events under Obama that actually resulted in both sides fighting and killing each other? That's in my backyard so, literally, it hit pretty close to home to me. Maybe there was and I just do not remember it, I was not as politically active back then so it may be cognitive bias.



Sure there was - the Ferguson riots as one example.  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25008485 - 02/20/18 03:23 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
That has NOTHING at all to do with Russia (does it?)  As I've said many times, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Trump's team was found guilty of a lot of things.  But collaboration with the Russian Government doesn't appear to be one of them.




Hear, hear. If only there was a special consul for every politican. For example, why did Steele not register as a foriegn agent? Or is it because he is not Russian?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25008495 - 02/20/18 03:28 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
I sure feel more divided, but that's not really something I can quantify so who knows?



And one more thought on this - I feel like CNN and the Washington Post are the ones dividing people.  Posting fake news and nothing burgers over and over again.  Let's wait until something actually comes out of all this - until then, shut up!


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #25008503 - 02/20/18 03:29 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Hear, hear. If only there was a special consul for every politican.



Ha!  Wouldn't that be nice?  :toast:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interferenc [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25008646 - 02/20/18 04:31 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
That has NOTHING at all to do with Russia (does it?)  As I've said many times, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Trump's team was found guilty of a lot of things.  But collaboration with the Russian Government doesn't appear to be one of them.




Idk. This is mysterious indictment because I think this guys is actually a bigger fish than it appears. For one, it looks like they went through Gates to get this guy, then he pleaded guilty. He's clearly got info mueller wanted. Who knows what it is, but the fact that this guy the son/in-law of a Putin crony and banker may be important.

Quote:

Van der Zwaan is accused of misleading investigators about the last time he talked with Gates when he was questioned Nov. 3 by U.S. authorities regarding the work. He told investigators that his last contact with Gates was an innocuous text message in mid-August 2016, when they actually spoke the following month about the Tymoshenko report in a call the lawyer secretly recorded, the information says.

Prosecutors say van der Zwaan lied about his talks with someone else, who they identified only as Person A. The lawyer told investigators he last spoke with Person A in 2014, when in fact they spoke in September 2016 during the secretly recorded call with Gates.




I think Manafort monetized his access to the campaign to and that is what mueller is trying to crack


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NotSheekle said
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Offlinekrypto2000
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Registered: 12/05/06
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25010107 - 02/21/18 08:55 AM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

krypto2000 said:
I sure feel more divided, but that's not really something I can quantify so who knows?



And one more thought on this - I feel like CNN and the Washington Post are the ones dividing people.  Posting fake news and nothing burgers over and over again.  Let's wait until something actually comes out of all this - until then, shut up!




Yeah, I think that's likely a bigger problem than the russians for sure, but again that's nothing new either, if anything I think that's what has lead us here, to the point where we are so open to manipulation. I mentioned that before with the appeal of the fairness doctrine. I really think the 24hr news cycle does a lot to stir up needless shit. The facts do not change but when you have talking heads constantly reminding you of it and encouraging outrage and divisiveness.. Well.. You're going to have civil unrest and be more inclined to view those who disagree as enemies as opposed to peers with different views.


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