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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: krypto2000]
    #24998713 - 02/16/18 12:23 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Again?  How many times have we been told this?


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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: krypto2000] * 1
    #24998761 - 02/16/18 12:48 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

The Washington Post is the "least biased source"?!?!?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: krypto2000] * 1
    #24998818 - 02/16/18 01:32 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

I've pointed out before that the Washington Post and CNN are the two leading fake news agencies.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: koods]
    #24999467 - 02/16/18 06:13 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
We now know the trump campaign coordinated with Russia.



No we don't.  Unless you have evidenced that hasn't yet been posted?

Even krypto2000 is now arguing this has nothing to do with Trump being involved.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: koods]
    #24999691 - 02/16/18 07:38 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Can you please quote the section where the Trump campaign coordinated with Russia?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: koods]
    #25000069 - 02/16/18 10:14 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/16/text-full-mueller-indictment-on-russian-election-case-415670

Page 4. Can't copy text to quote from images.



I didn't see it there.  But you can click on the "TEXT" tab and then copy/paste it for us.


--------------------
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: musiclover420]
    #25000156 - 02/16/18 11:01 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

musiclover420 said:
It seems clear that it did have some impact on the election though.



That's not what the Deputy Attorney General said:


"There is no allegation in the indictment that the charged conduct altered the outcome of the 2016 election"


Edit:  SirTripAlot beat me to it.


Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (02/16/18 11:08 PM)


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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: musiclover420]
    #25000235 - 02/17/18 12:14 AM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

musiclover420 said:
Notice the wording though, "there is no allegation in the indictment"... We will no doubt see many more indictments, and more allegations.



Oh, I know we will see more allegations.  We've seen one nothing burger after another and there's no reason to think it will stop.

Quote:

musiclover420 said:
Quote:

At a news conference Friday, Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein repeatedly emphasized that in this particular indictment, there is no allegation that the Russian operatives had any impact on the election's result. He also said that Friday's indictment does not allege that any American knowingly participated in the Russian operation.






When have they ever had an impact on the election?  Do you the facebook posts had an impact?

Quote:

musiclover420 said:
Then shortly after the first american was indicted :rofldrunk:

Quote:

White House press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders said in a statement Friday that the president is "glad to see the Special Counsel's investigation further indicates—that there was NO COLLUSION between the Trump campaign and Russia and that the outcome of the election was not changed or affected."




:lolsy:



Why the lolsy?  Have they found any evidence of collusion yet?  If so, can you please post it?


--------------------
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: krypto2000]
    #25001678 - 02/17/18 04:41 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
If Trump is innocent that's great, that's sure better than him being guilty, however if these things did happen I would want that knowledge to come out into the public domain, the criminals involved prosecuted, and measures taken place to restore and secure said democracy with the knowledge gained. Can both sides not agree on that at least? That is why I, and I feel everyone, should support the investigation.



Sure, I can agree with that.  I've said many times I'm not against the investigation; just that the investigation thus far has been a whole lot of nothing burgers.  I'm fine with it continuing...


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: musiclover420]
    #25001695 - 02/17/18 04:49 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

musiclover420 said:
What are everyone's thoughts on this:

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/374356-kushner-requests-more-intel-info-than-almost-all-white-house-staff

He has "temporary clearance" as he can't get permanent clearance, and is requesting more intel then half the white house?....



To be more honest, it's not that he "can't" get a permanent clearance, it's that he's still under investigation for one.


Quote:

musiclover420 said:
Then you have this:

Quote:

President Trump's son-in-law and now top White House advisor Jared Kushner proposed a secret back channel between the Kremlin and the Trump transition team




....

And I thought the whole "but her emails" thing was a big deal... This seems much much more shady...



Given the establishment's hatred of Russia for not allowing NATO to seize Crimea, this actually made sense for someone who wasn't yet aligned with the establishment.  But it never happened so it's not a big deal.


--------------------
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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: krypto2000]
    #25001708 - 02/17/18 04:55 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
I believe you said before that you did not believe the Russian's actually tried to influence the election and that there was no proof, have these indictments changed your opinion there? Why or why not?



No.  Have you seen the ads they printed?  None of them would change my mind (or likely anyone's mind) about who to vote for (if I'm wrong, post one of the best ads you've seen that might change your mind).

People have a right to voice their opinions on social media; even the Russians.  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: musiclover420]
    #25001730 - 02/17/18 05:04 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

musiclover420 said:
Here's a good timeline of all the shady stuff that's happened so far:
Quote:

November 2013: The Trump-owned Miss Universe pageant is held in Moscow, sponsored by VTB Bank.[5] The event’s $20 million dollar licensing fee is paid by a Moscow real estate development firm called the Crocus Group, whose president is Aras Agalarov and Vice President is his son, pop singer Emin Agalarov.[10] Following this event, Trump tells Real Estate Weekly that "the Russian market is attracted to me, I have a great relationship with many Russians".






Did you know that a LOT of American companies are in Russia now that they're capitalist?  I visited Russia this summer, and the most disappointing part of my trip was all the international companies that were there (McDonald's, Sony, Versace, etc.); pretty much every international company I've heard of.

All the rest of the stuff we've previously discussed as nothing burgers as well.  I'll link you to the discussions if you have a topic you think is most 'shady'.

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
Ho hum, a bunch of gossip.  :cookiemonster:



I'll link you to the discussions as well, though I believe you were part of most of them.  Tell me which one you believe is the most 'shady'.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: krypto2000]
    #25001738 - 02/17/18 05:08 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
I'm only trying to establish that they interfered at this point, not that they changed the outcome. However per the indictments they did far more than post ads anyway, or do you disagree?



Yes, they did more per the indictments, but none of it appears to be "election interference" (and again, if any was, please post your best example).


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: krypto2000]
    #25001803 - 02/17/18 05:39 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
We could go with the worst example, some poor ad that had no popularity, how does that not count as election interference? Are you confining interference as altering the outcome?



Maybe, maybe not, depending on the specifics, but the ones I've seen so far don't live up to "interference".  Again, maybe you can change my mind by posting a good example.

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
I think the worst aspect of the indictments is that they held campaign rallies on US soil and contacted Trump compaign officials, presuming innocence on their part, to try and trick them; that seems much more serious and threatening than simply buying ads to me.



Again, that depends on the specifics.  High level US Government officials such as John McCain and Victoria Nuland traveled to Ukraine to rally the people there against their own elected Government.  Something like that would count as election interference to me.

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
Outside of these indictments I would say the worst relative to the evidence supporting it are the DNC/RNC hack followed by the Trump tower meeting, though I believe you still do not believe the hack actually happened despite Dutch intelligence having video proof and full data logs from the attackers end with direct ties to SVR officials.



I agreed the hack happened in my discussion with you here, and I even defended you on it here.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: krypto2000]
    #25001847 - 02/17/18 05:55 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
I think I'm confused on what your definition of interference might be, can you explain?



It's a fair question, but a few thoughts are manipulation of actual voting results, incitement to go outside of a country's established voting process, illegally funding a candidates campaign...


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: krypto2000]
    #25001877 - 02/17/18 06:05 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
In that case then I do not believe I can change your mind at this point as we can only speculate how much impact the ad campaigns had.



Ok then, how would you define election interference?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: koods]
    #25003645 - 02/18/18 01:10 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Here we have finally found the mythological paid shills, and now it's "meh." LOL.  These people had millions of dollars to buy social media influence, to promote or fabricate fake news, to coordinate with campaigns.



Until someone shows evidence that they were doing significantly more than selling Bernie coloring books, or pushing slogans that racism is evil, it's pretty much a "meh".

Quote:

koods said:
I think the most effective part of the Russian media operation was to poison Clinton in the eyes of sanders supporters.



IF they revealed the truth about the DNC (Assange said it wasn't the Russian Government) then they deserve a whistleblower medal.  Or do you like to be ignorant?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: krypto2000]
    #25003687 - 02/18/18 01:31 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
It's known and now accepted that they also hacked the dns and rnc emails as well which had a significant impact.



We still don't know who released the emails to WikiLeaks.  Assange said it wasn't Russia, so it's NOT known and accepted that Russians had a significant impact.

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
It also raises the question what did they do with the rnc emails? Why not release those, nothing interesting bc the gop are all so clean? What do we still not know, is there more to yet uncover?



Two problems here:

1.  You still assume it was Russia who released the emails to WikiLeaks.  They might just be sitting on both DNC and RNC emails.
2.  It was never shown the Russians successfully hacked the RNC; only that they attempted to hack it.  Again, this just tells us that Russia spies on other countries, just like the US does, and just like the Netherlands did with Russia in the article you posted.

Should we pretend to be mad when we do it all the time?  Sure, I guess so.

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
13 russians and 3 firms indicted for a widespread multi million dollar campaign to push trump and hurt clinton?



Wrong.  13 russians and 3 firms indicted for a widespread multi one million dollar campaign to push trump and hurt clinton “sow discord in the US political system” by supporting both sides.  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: krypto2000]
    #25003904 - 02/18/18 03:11 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
They had a $1.25 million MONTHLY budget. Yes, that means multi million.



Ok, my mistake.

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
They supported Trump and Bernie and attacked Clinton, Cruz, etc. Where are you getting this both sides narrative from?



From the ads themselves?


Let me share a story that explains my perspective and what I'm guessing is going on (admittedly, this is speculation, but so far I've seen nothing to show my speculation is wrong).

Well before the election, I posted about how Hillary wants us to hate on Russia.  I know a good number of Russians living here in the San Francisco Bay Area, and it's clear I wasn't the only one who noticed this.  Many of the Russians I know found Hillary's aggression troubling, and some Russian Democrats (US Citizens) actually said they would not vote for Hillary (Bernie was their man, and previously Obama was).  When Bernie lost, some of them plugged their nose and decided to support Trump over Clinton (though I may have convinced a few to 'waste' a vote on Jill Stein).

As American citizens, I know these people are politically active, and give money to their favorite candidates.  My theory (I haven't asked them) is that some of those Russians whose English isn't that good donated to Russian language anti-Hillary websites (not necessarily pro-Trump).  These may have been the organizations in Saint Petersburg that were just indicted.  Many of the adds would be consistent with this.

It's currently a fact that "Mueller’s indictment did not tie the meddling effort to the Russian government" and that it has nothing to do with the actions of Trump or the Russian Government.

Just some food for thought on what might have happened.  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Special counsel Indicts 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities in '16 election interference [Re: musiclover420]
    #25004174 - 02/18/18 05:42 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

musiclover420 said:
more funny news today:

Quote:

I never said Russia did not meddle in the election, I said “it may be Russia, or China or another country or group, or it may be a 400 pound genius sitting in bed and playing with his computer.” The Russian “hoax” was that the Trump campaign colluded with Russia - it never did!




Quote:

Trump last year said he believed Russian President Vladimir Putin when Putin said he didn't meddle in the 2016 election.

“Every time he sees me he says, ‘I didn’t do that,’ and I really believe that when he tells me that, he means it," Trump said last November.

Trump later sought to clarify his comments on whether he believed Russia meddled in the 2016 presidential race, saying: "I believe our intel agencies."




:lolsy:



Nothing funny here.  This all goes back to what is meant by "meddling in the election".  Trump believes Russia didn't do anything to influence the election, but he believes the DNC emails were hacked by someone in Russia.  I believe the same.

Quote:

musiclover420 said:
Funniest part is Putin denied even talking to Trump about this...

So is Trump lying, senile, or corrupt?... Or possibly a mix of all 3 and then some :uhoh: Really not a good look either way.



Nothing funny or abnormal here either.  Putin issued statements that he had no involvement, and Trump likely considered those statements "telling him" that.

Quote:

musiclover420 said:
Has everyone seen the recent NRA videos?

There's a bunch of these, funded by Russia of course.

It's insane that those videos are actually from the NRA, as they are blatant violence inciting propaganda....



Huh?  What are you saying here?  That the NRA put out videos against their own will?  :flowstone:

All we know that a lifetime member of the NRA is a Russian banker.  And the conclusion from that is that he's holding the NRA at gunpoint to produce these videos?  :wtf:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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