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InvisibleFeroxx
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Re: Lophophora Growers Unite! [Re: Johnny Dont]
    #24990725 - 02/13/18 09:08 AM (4 months, 5 days ago)

I doubt peres roots can survive for long in the air


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OfflineSolipsis
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Re: Lophophora Growers Unite! [Re: Feroxx]
    #24991142 - 02/13/18 01:23 PM (4 months, 4 days ago)

Why would you want to uproot your peres before you graft to them?

I sowed some LW var Decipiens and LW Menchaca and Matucana Madisoniorum.. germinated quickly (I did my best on the conditions) and I am seeing some beautiful spherical seedlings on all :smile: Yellow and green almost neon colors and some mild red blushing, all of which is a little conflicting regarding too much vs too little light.
I have never seen them like this, I might have been doing it all too much on the dry side before.

It might have been a lot of condensation on the double layer of plastic wrap and some optical effects? idk, but 2x 36W CFL should be enough if not a little too much I think.


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OfflineMateo
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Re: Lophophora Growers Unite! [Re: Solipsis]
    #24991193 - 02/13/18 01:48 PM (4 months, 4 days ago)

I can guess non rooted graft stocks can give less problems with sap pushing scion but a good root system on the graft stock must give much faster growing scions.
People have adviced me that the better size and roots on the graft stock, the faster the scion grows.


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Re: Lophophora Growers Unite! [Re: Mateo]
    #24991205 - 02/13/18 01:56 PM (4 months, 4 days ago)

Just stop watering them for a while before grafting and sap won't be a problem. I have seen people graft onto freshly cut unrooted Opuntia pads, but pereskiopsis are much more susceptible to drying out.


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InvisibleFeroxx
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Re: Lophophora Growers Unite! [Re: Ethnonaught]
    #24991281 - 02/13/18 02:35 PM (4 months, 4 days ago)

opuntia shrinks very fast on the cuts if dry, you can use humidity but not much as it molds fast, vaseline can really help, it will shrink 50% slowlier, ime


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OfflineMateo
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Re: Lophophora Growers Unite! [Re: Feroxx]
    #24991426 - 02/13/18 03:45 PM (4 months, 4 days ago)

If i put some pereskiopsis cuts into my clooner/rooter thing, how long you think before they get roots?
The clooner/rooter uses 2 ultrasonic mist generators to generate fog for the underside of the peres.

I have some Loph seedlings a few mm big now.
I thought i try graft some when the peres get roots.


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InvisibleFeroxx
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Re: Lophophora Growers Unite! [Re: Mateo]
    #24991464 - 02/13/18 04:04 PM (4 months, 4 days ago)

In my case small roots appear after 10 days, but fogponics should be much faster i swear


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OfflineSolipsis
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Re: Lophophora Growers Unite! [Re: Feroxx]
    #24991652 - 02/13/18 05:25 PM (4 months, 4 days ago)

Holding out water on peres seems like a much better idea than grafting on uprooted or rootless peres. Uprooting can desiccate roots so you should expect to lose some, if you try to avoid that you probably defeat the purpose of uprooting.

Plants generally have a balance between roots and the above ground parts, so they will mostly invest energy in rooting if you take those away from them. So if anything, you should cut away a part of your rootstock so that it will invest energy rather than taking away roots.

I am not particularly savvy with peres and prefer other rootstock but in my experience if you stop watering them for long enough sap etc shouldn't be a problem, so if you have problems it may be other ones?

I guess 10 days sounds about right for rooting... I did a small trial with hydroponics and they do *really* well that way. I deprived the hydroponic ones of light because I needed to put a salvia in my shared humidity dome and they still look well.
It's really easy, with just a half strength 'regular' fertilizer solution and some air bubbling - without that you should refresh every week.

Anyway, what are your experiences with the hue of seedlings? I've had experience with quite red trichs that turned out alright and some lophs which I probably did not treat right and also wasted some on learning to graft.
I'll try to share a pic of my current loph seedlings, I think they look amazing!


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Edited by Solipsis (02/13/18 05:28 PM)


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Lophophora Growers Unite! [Re: Solipsis] * 1
    #24991660 - 02/13/18 05:29 PM (4 months, 4 days ago)

My theory on pereskiopsis grafts is that it's good for the scion to be really well hydrated and the stock less so, so that the stock initially pulls a bit of water out of the scion, getting the flow primed and creating a bit of suction to help hold it on. Unrooted stock works well in my experience.


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OfflineSolipsis
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Re: Lophophora Growers Unite! [Re: psi]
    #24991746 - 02/13/18 06:12 PM (4 months, 4 days ago)

Yeah I actually have that theory in my mind quite a lot and am trying to see whether I find that my experiences are consistent with that and so far they are. :smile:
Not quite sure whether there is any real capillary action that could be considered a sucking power but I'll settle for no overflowing power if you just withhold watering.
I'm sure that unrooted peres works well though with others it may really suck the scion dry. But also you have to consider the possible tradeoff of grafting success rate % vs. growth and strength afterwards. I personally haven't had a scion flowing off since I started taking care to stop watering properly so I'll take my chances with rooted stock.

I guess you are not the one who put the root in rootstock. :wink:


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Re: Lophophora Growers Unite! [Re: Solipsis]
    #24991763 - 02/13/18 06:21 PM (4 months, 4 days ago)

Interesting theory, might do something.
Keep in mind though, before any transportational connection is made a layer of necrotic cells will form on both ends with callus behind it before the necrotic cells disolve and connective tissue forms to then attach IIRC (may take a week or more i'd guess)


Edited by DualWieldRake (02/13/18 06:21 PM)


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Lophophora Growers Unite! [Re: Solipsis]
    #24991774 - 02/13/18 06:26 PM (4 months, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Solipsis said:
I'm sure that unrooted peres works well though with others it may really suck the scion dry. But also you have to consider the possible tradeoff of grafting success rate % vs. growth and strength afterwards. I personally haven't had a scion flowing off since I started taking care to stop watering properly so I'll take my chances with rooted stock.



Yeah it definitely is not necessary to use unrooted stock just to prevent that problem. In some situations it can be convenient not to wait for stock to root first though.


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OfflineSolipsis
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Re: Lophophora Growers Unite! [Re: DualWieldRake]
    #24991785 - 02/13/18 06:30 PM (4 months, 4 days ago)

Yeah good theory, osmotic pressure and everything...

Quote:

DualWieldRake said:
Interesting theory, might do something.
Keep in mind though, before any transportational connection is made a layer of necrotic cells will form on both ends with callus behind it before the necrotic cells disolve and connective tissue forms to then attach IIRC (may take a week or more i'd guess)




Fascinating, I guess it makes sense that it is traumatic. So maybe a week for fusion and half a week for PTSD.


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Lophophora Growers Unite! [Re: DualWieldRake]
    #24991807 - 02/13/18 06:40 PM (4 months, 4 days ago)

Quote:

DualWieldRake said:
Interesting theory, might do something.
Keep in mind though, before any transportational connection is made a layer of necrotic cells will form on both ends with callus behind it before the necrotic cells disolve and connective tissue forms to then attach IIRC (may take a week or more i'd guess)



I wonder if the necrotizing effect can be minimized depending on technique. Someone had the theory that with cut flowers, re-cutting the ends of the stems underwater can make the flowers last longer. So maybe if there is no exposure to dry air in the first place, fewer cells on the cut surface will die. Whether it's doing the grafts really fast, wetting the blade with sterile water, or performing the grafts in a high humidity environment.


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Re: Lophophora Growers Unite! [Re: Solipsis] * 2
    #24991815 - 02/13/18 06:44 PM (4 months, 4 days ago)

I really want try grafting.


No strange looking seedlings to graft.


This one is pink, it´s probably going to change to ordinary green, or?


Closeup pink Loph seedling

I have seen similar seedlings that turned out ordinary green.
What you think, is it something i should try graft?


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Re: Lophophora Growers Unite! [Re: Mateo]
    #24991927 - 02/13/18 07:38 PM (4 months, 4 days ago)

I'm sorry, I meant unrooted, but auto correct got the best of me. :rofl:


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OfflineWeAreMushroom
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Re: Lophophora Growers Unite! [Re: Johnny Dont] * 1
    #24992271 - 02/13/18 10:02 PM (4 months, 4 days ago)

As promised, here's a picture of my first successful graft.



It looks a little shiny and moist due to the antibacterial ointment on the tapered bits of the pachanoi, to prevent it from corking up and pushing the graft off.

Seems to be growing almost fast enough to watch.

It's almost doubled in size since I grafted it a week ago. 

My other two grafts, one a caespitosa, the other a normal willamsii, also appear to have taken well.

I'll post pictures of them too when I remove the nylon strips from the grafts in a few days.

Grafting cacti is awesome!

:raisemyglass:


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Re: Lophophora Growers Unite! [Re: psi]
    #24993877 - 02/14/18 02:49 PM (4 months, 3 days ago)

Quote:

psi said:
Quote:

DualWieldRake said:
Interesting theory, might do something.
Keep in mind though, before any transportational connection is made a layer of necrotic cells will form on both ends with callus behind it before the necrotic cells disolve and connective tissue forms to then attach IIRC (may take a week or more i'd guess)



I wonder if the necrotizing effect can be minimized depending on technique. Someone had the theory that with cut flowers, re-cutting the ends of the stems underwater can make the flowers last longer. So maybe if there is no exposure to dry air in the first place, fewer cells on the cut surface will die. Whether it's doing the grafts really fast, wetting the blade with sterile water, or performing the grafts in a high humidity environment.




Yes, by cutting off a sliver of the rootstock after you tapered it, and placing it back immediately to prevent it from drying out while you prepare the scion.

I do sanitize my knife with alcohol which rapidly evaporates.

Performing the grafts in high humidity environment is probably desirable but I wouldn't exactly go out of my way to create such an environment if I don't have it.
With good technique it should be quick enough that the speed matters more than the humidity.

I imagine that failed grafts can involve improper connection or indeed just so much trauma that the scion is rejected before the aforementioned process can remedy it.
Obviously don't damage either of the tissues that are to be joined.

I do think these factors help determine the quality and success of the graft, but I also believe that the ones I lost were due to reasons which probably could not be fixed by reduction of necrosis.


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Re: Lophophora Growers Unite! [Re: Solipsis]
    #24993948 - 02/14/18 03:24 PM (4 months, 3 days ago)

My advice is to sterilize well but keep seedling and blade dry on cutting not to dilute the juices, as they contain stuff responsible for attachment.

As long as properly attached and sharply cut i'd say barriers are kept to a minimum and connection will eventually be able to form.
I've had some lophs (pups) still taking following slight reposition a week after the cut.

Some stalled grafts i had involved a bacterial infection, they were undoing the connection behind the scenes


Edited by DualWieldRake (02/14/18 03:24 PM)


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Re: Lophophora Growers Unite! [Re: Mateo]
    #24993962 - 02/14/18 03:32 PM (4 months, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Mateo said:
I really want try grafting.


No strange looking seedlings to graft.


This one is pink, it´s probably going to change to ordinary green, or?


Closeup pink Loph seedling

I have seen similar seedlings that turned out ordinary green.
What you think, is it something i should try graft?




My whitest seedling turned out green but a different shade than my other lophs


Edited by DualWieldRake (02/14/18 03:33 PM)


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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> The Ethnobotanical Garden

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