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Ggregmedina
Stranger
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Solipsism and reality
#24988385 - 02/12/18 09:32 AM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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Ok so it seems that many people on this forum are open to the ideas about reality being subjective and basically existing in only our brains but solipsism always seems to get shot down. Wouldn't one support the othe other though? If reality is basically what we imagine then what if other people are just
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secondorder
Amanda Hug'n'kiss
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Definitely possible. I often fluctuate between feeling a solopsistic view of the world and a more conventional view. The thing is, even if all of the people you are experiencing are just "imaginary", that doesn't mean that nobody but you exists, only the people you perceive. For arguments sake it could be the case that everyone you think you perceive is just a hallucination, or imaginary, but you're really just in an insane asylum being surrounded by a completely different set of people/beings, that you don't perceive (for whatever reason).
Edited by secondorder (02/15/18 08:02 AM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,063
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solipsism specifically loses in translation, i.e. why seek support/agreement/or even discourse from others if they are in your head.
obviously everyone is all in everyone else's head, as a consequence of existing outside of everyone's head.
but the projection into people's brains from outside is not solipsistical although it has the greatest supporting evidence (e.g sensation, nerves, body - anatomy, neurophysiology etc. all having objective consistency)
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Ggregmedina
Stranger
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Well shit That's what I'm afraid of
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rider420
Ghost in the machine
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Sadly solipsism lacks any type of empathy and leads people to believe only they matter. And it is used to deny the harm they cause others after all only they are real.
Its ok to care and if you understand the cause and effect reality in which we all exist you can make many people happy rather then just yourself.
Its too bad that spirituality leads to religion and that leads to righteousness. Not all Christians were Nazis but every last Nazi was Christian.
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remake
Registered: 01/05/16
Posts: 4,201
Loc: South Africa
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: rider420]
#24988533 - 02/12/18 10:57 AM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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Solipsism is for little children who are having tantrums!
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beforethedawn
Registered: 06/19/16
Posts: 1,859
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: remake]
#24988601 - 02/12/18 11:35 AM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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It's a tough one.
Not much literature on what is ACTUALLY true. The book My Big TOE by Thomas Campbell is kind of good.
People are like... not people, which means you are also not a person, you are many varieties of possibilities, many different things from different angles.
The angles are frequencies of consciousness.
It's like we're playing a computer game and understanding takes you to the next level where the situation presents itself to Mario or whoever you want to be.
It is AMAZING and BEAUTIFUL, so despair not.
But prepare to be bewildered, it is far more complex thank imagination permits. You didn't do it and there's only you.
-------------------- Hostile humankind Can't you see you're fucking blind?
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remake
Registered: 01/05/16
Posts: 4,201
Loc: South Africa
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If it's only me in here, I demand 1 billion bitcoins and a baby momma!
And adventure.
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Ggregmedina
Stranger
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: remake]
#24988621 - 02/12/18 11:49 AM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
FranniePilgrim said: If it's only me in here, I demand 1 billion bitcoins and a baby momma!
And adventure.
These are the typical replies regarding solipsism
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remake
Registered: 01/05/16
Posts: 4,201
Loc: South Africa
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If it's only me in here I want world peace!
And the coolest party ever! That never stops, and never begins!
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remake
Registered: 01/05/16
Posts: 4,201
Loc: South Africa
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What would you want, if it were only you??
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DisoRDeR
motional
Registered: 08/29/02
Posts: 1,158
Loc: nonsensistan
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: remake] 1
#24988643 - 02/12/18 12:09 PM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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variety, communication, discovery
something new
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pur3bind
Not all who wander are frost-y
Registered: 07/16/16
Posts: 748
Loc: Plan, Plant, Planet
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: DisoRDeR]
#24988678 - 02/12/18 12:28 PM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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SEX AND PANCAKES! \M/
-------------------- "There are times— and this would be a great study for somebody to do—there have been periods in English when there were emotions that don't exist anymore, because the words have been lost. There are colors that don't exist anymore because the words have been lost." — Terence McKenna (The Archaic Revival: 1991)
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Ferdinando
Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,695
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: solipsism specifically loses in translation, i.e. why seek support/agreement/or even discourse from others if they are in your head.
obviously everyone is all in everyone else's head, as a consequence of existing outside of everyone's head.
but the projection into people's brains from outside is not solipsistical although it has the greatest supporting evidence (e.g sensation, nerves, body - anatomy, neurophysiology etc. all having objective consistency)
that's quite a responsibility
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,063
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: Ferdinando]
#24989319 - 02/12/18 04:40 PM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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a solipsist is always up to the challenge!
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sudly
Quasar Praiser
Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 11,242
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Quote:
Ggregmedina said: Ok so it seems that many people on this forum are open to the ideas about reality being subjective and basically existing in only our brains but solipsism always seems to get shot down. Wouldn't one support the othe other though? If reality is basically what we imagine then what if other people are just
Solipsism is an arrogant, selfish and close minded view by definition.
Quote:
arrogant: having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities.
selfish: (of a person, action, or motive) lacking consideration for other people; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure.
close minded: having or showing rigid opinions or a narrow outlook.
I've tried stopping mosquitoes with my mind alone but they kept on chugging!
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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remake
Registered: 01/05/16
Posts: 4,201
Loc: South Africa
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: sudly]
#24990489 - 02/13/18 02:09 AM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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Solipsism in my opinion is dishonest and a go to "safe place" for coping with some form of egoistic concerns due to a self- or externally imposed "inadequacy".
The solipsist expects you to work for him...
He doesn't see the contributions of others for the whole.
I.E, He regards things like electricity as a self evident consequence of his immediate field of view.
"He" creates "it" through "observation" alone.
He doesn't see the sweat, blood and tears of other humans leading to the light bulb turning on.
Consequently the solipsist need only "think" himself above other things, with no genuine proof of him truly being "better".
Edited by remake (02/13/18 02:20 AM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,063
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: remake]
#24990908 - 02/13/18 09:41 AM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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everyone's reality is different, but is connected to the same basis of reality (body/sensation)
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beforethedawn
Registered: 06/19/16
Posts: 1,859
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: everyone's reality is different, but is connected to the same basis of reality (body/sensation)
-------------------- Hostile humankind Can't you see you're fucking blind?
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BrendanFlock
Stranger
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Yeah what we have in common is habit.. and what we don't have in common is novelty..
Anyone care to differ..?
Even if your a solipsist.. you can still notice similarity and difference in people..
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Middleman
Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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When it's seen that I and everyone else are nothing more than dream characters, my compassion for others increases. Why is that?
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BrendanFlock
Stranger
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: Middleman]
#24992550 - 02/13/18 09:57 PM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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Because you think they relate to you in a mystical way..?
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remake
Registered: 01/05/16
Posts: 4,201
Loc: South Africa
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: Middleman]
#24992803 - 02/14/18 01:28 AM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Middleman said: When it's seen that I and everyone else are nothing more than dream characters, my compassion for others increases. Why is that?
Perhaps our ego's.
I personally view our world as based in harsh reality, being physical, maybe a clear split between everything...and a slightly "mystical" aspect, being our personalities/imagination where we converge...
A dream of mine would be to manipulate matter in real time.
That'd be something!
We kind of do it already, I believe, just takes some time.
For now, art and music would suffice for such an "ability".
Anyway...
I think "solipsism" like most other things, depends on the person interpreting it, probably.
But it can't be denied, I think, that on face value what it represents seems not only scary, but requires a certain aspect of lying to oneself...
But for real, if it's only me here, give me money and a vacation, and boobies.
Edited by remake (02/14/18 01:41 AM)
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remake
Registered: 01/05/16
Posts: 4,201
Loc: South Africa
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: remake]
#24992827 - 02/14/18 01:47 AM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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Maybe this is completely retarded, no offence, but do you guys think in someway the internet is different than "real life". Because, in principle it isn't. It's as good as me sitting next to you, we just are too far away to see each other.
I'm asking this, because, I'm under the impression people think that interacting on the internet is like talking into some kind of magical vortex...which is partly true, but we're still in relation to one another on the same planet...
So, what I think, is that a lot of time is spent imagining that lame ol' pondering if my green is the same colour as your green...Which seems "interesting" but irrelevant in a lot of ways.
Realisation of oneself probably requires a degree of solipsism to follow through on what you want to do in life...But, isn't it then truly only a realisation of the personality? I think our personalities are custom, and where some fun can be held if we allow ourselves not to get too emotional.
Boobs.
Edited by remake (02/14/18 01:57 AM)
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Brian Jones
Club 27
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: remake]
#24992838 - 02/14/18 01:57 AM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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I accept solipsism to the extent that we can't be sure anything beyond our own mind is true. I don't accept extending it to, the world and other minds don't exist.
IDK, it's a bit like the difference between agnosticism and atheism.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Brian Jones
Club 27
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: remake]
#24992847 - 02/14/18 02:03 AM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
FranniePilgrim said: Maybe this is completely retarded, no offence, but do you guys think in someway the internet is different than "real life". Because, in principle it isn't. It's as good as me sitting next to you, we just are too far away to see each other.
I'm asking this, because, I'm under the impression people think that interacting on the internet is like talking into some kind of magical vortex...which is partly true, but we're still in relation to one another on the same planet...
So, what I think, is that a lot of time is spent imagining that lame ol' pondering if my green is the same colour as your green...Which seems "interesting" but irrelevant in a lot of ways.
Realisation of oneself probably requires a degree of solipsism to follow through on what you want to do in life...But, isn't it then truly only a realisation of the personality? I think our personalities are custom, and where some fun can be held if we allow ourselves not to get too emotional.
Boobs.
I think you're on to something. The internet is just a collection of people and technology, but it has become, seemingly, more than the sum of it's parts, and frequently does seem different than real life.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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BrendanFlock
Stranger
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If you were to disapear.. you would become one with the nothing void space.. the base absolute bottom and middle of Brahman..
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remake
Registered: 01/05/16
Posts: 4,201
Loc: South Africa
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I think because of the anonymity, people feel more free to express themselves.
Imagine if everyday life people lived out the full extent of their online avatars.
That'd be some crazy shit!
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Brian Jones
Club 27
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: remake]
#24992863 - 02/14/18 02:15 AM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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yes, have you ever encountered the internet "alternative reality" site called Second Life.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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remake
Registered: 01/05/16
Posts: 4,201
Loc: South Africa
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Only seen it as satire in TV shows, like The Office, where Dwight creates a Second-Second Life, haha!
But have yet to check it out myself...maybe I should.
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Brian Jones
Club 27
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: remake]
#24992882 - 02/14/18 02:29 AM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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People on there are always talking about SL and RL(real life).
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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remake
Registered: 01/05/16
Posts: 4,201
Loc: South Africa
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Man, I find it so strange. People are very shy, me too I guess...and we are racing so fast towards creating any different reality than the one we are already existing in.
All because, I think, of insecurities that can be cured quite easily!
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remake
Registered: 01/05/16
Posts: 4,201
Loc: South Africa
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: remake]
#24992908 - 02/14/18 02:46 AM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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So, maybe...I think, solipsism can go two ways, either realisation of the personality, or deeper within the cave...
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BrendanFlock
Stranger
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: remake]
#24992946 - 02/14/18 03:29 AM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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Nah, things are like this because of boredom.. since we owned our hunter and gatherer heritage we have become bored and need things to fulfill us..
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remake
Registered: 01/05/16
Posts: 4,201
Loc: South Africa
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That might be an answer, but I think it doesn't address the problem that the "things" we "need" to distract us from boredom can be fulfilled by - imagination. The place of a lot of our problems and solutions as human turds.
With imagination, the equipment we need to cure boredom, is not nearly as complicated as we make it to be.
Maybe we need all these existential outlets to avoid actual communication.
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Apples in Mono
Not a puppet
Registered: 09/21/17
Posts: 3,240
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Quote:
Ggregmedina said: Ok so it seems that many people on this forum are open to the ideas about reality being subjective and basically existing in only our brains but solipsism always seems to get shot down. Wouldn't one support the othe other though? If reality is basically what we imagine then what if other people are just
Solipsism is a subset of idealism, and i'm not really sure why one would consider the latter but not the former. And i think people hate on talk of solipsism because they don't understand the difference between solipsism as a metaphysical position, and solipsism as an epistemological or methodological position, aka the problem of solipsism
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remake
Registered: 01/05/16
Posts: 4,201
Loc: South Africa
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People are going to do what they want to do, regardless of other people's opinions, I guess.
It's remarkable anyone is still alive, tbh.
I once ate a potent brownie and spent the whole night shivering in bed thinking I was alone in the universe.
If that is true, keep pretending like your not me! Some sanity...plz
I'll just side step any solopsist through unimaginably idiotic behaviour in front of them.
What if I don't want to be "one" with you? What if I fuckn don't like you? Creep!
"Oneness" is the new religion...holy balls.
So, basically, if you don't "merge" with the "One", you're damned or asleep...man.
Sounds exactly like religion. And there's no room for authenticity.
I'm just venting because I'm a sleeping, unawake, -18 level buddha. I don't have the levelz of advanced magic yoga boobytrap scap slap.
Edited by remake (02/14/18 05:32 AM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,063
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: remake]
#24993324 - 02/14/18 08:10 AM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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internet communication is usually asynchronous except for skype or webex like apps which let you meet in voice, in video, even share screen or applications. in a way webex is more real than real life meetings, and you can get a video audio recording.
anyway this website is asynchronous - I am responding to a message posted over 6 hours ago. so it does not feel like a real conversation, it is a path that was possible before, or a path in a folded over reality where pieces from 6 hours ago seem like now to me because I loaded this page.
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laughingdog
Stranger
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,829
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funny thing is folks think Sollipsism is radical, but the 2500 years old teaching of 'not-self', or 'no-self' is more radical, imo
here is the latest, which can be used for more speculation
Worm 'uploaded' to computer and taught amazing tricks
Computer program or living being? Nematode's neural system translated into code
Date: February 6, 2018 Source: Vienna University of Technology Summary: The tiny worm C. elegans is the only living being whose neural network has been analyzed completely. It can therefore be transferred to a computer, creating a virtual copy of the worm which behaves in exactly the same way to external stimuli. Such a 'virtual worm' can learn amazing tricks -- its neural network can even be used to balance a pole, which is a standard control problem in computer science. Share: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/02/180206105828.htm
In real life, the worm reacts to touch -- and the same neural circuits can perform tasks in the computer. Credit: TU Wien It is not much to look at: the nematode C. elegans is about one millimetre in length and is a very simple organism. But for science, it is extremely interesting. C. elegans is the only living being whose neural system has been analysed completely. It can be drawn as a circuit diagram or reproduced by computer software, so that the neural activity of the worm is simulated by a computer program.
Such an artificial C. elegans has now been trained at TU Wien (Vienna) to perform a remarkable trick: The computer worm has learned to balance a pole at the tip of its tail.
The Worm's Reflexive behaviour as Computer Code
C. elegans has to get by with only 300 neurons. But they are enough to make sure that the worm can find its way, eat bacteria and react to certain external stimuli. It can, for example, react to a touch on its body. A reflexive response is triggered and the worm squirms away.
This behaviour can be perfectly explained: it is determined by the worm's nerve cells and the strength of the connections between them. When this simple reflex-network is recreated on a computer, then the simulated worm reacts in exactly the same way to a virtual stimulation -- not because anybody programmed it to do so, but because this kind of behaviour is hard-wired in its neural network.
"This reflexive response of such a neural circuit, is very similar to the reaction of a control agent balancing a pole," says Ramin Hasani (Institute of Computer Engineering, TU Wien). This is a typical control problem which can be solved quite well by standard controllers: a pole is fixed on its lower end on a moving object, and it is supposed to stay in a vertical position. Whenever it starts tilting, the lower end has to move slightly to keep the pole from tipping over. Much like the worm has to change its direction whenever it is stimulated by a touch, the pole must be moved whenever it tilts.
Mathias Lechner, Radu Grosu and Ramin Hasani wanted to find out, whether the neural system of C. elegans, uploaded to a computer, could solve this problem -- without adding any nerve cells, just by tuning the strength of the synaptic connections. This basic idea (tuning the connections between nerve cells) is also the characteristic feature of any natural learning process.
A Program without a Programmer
"With the help of reinforcement learning, a method also known as 'learning based on experiment and reward', the artificial reflex network was trained and optimized on the computer," Mathias Lechner explains. And indeed, the team succeeded in teaching the virtual nerve system to balance a pole. "The result is a controller, which can solve a standard technology problem -- stabilizing a pole, balanced on its tip. But no human being has written even one line of code for this controller, it just emerged by training a biological nerve system," says Radu Grosu.
The team is going to explore the capabilities of such control-circuits further. The project raises the question, whether there is a fundamental difference between living nerve systems and computer code. Is machine learning and the activity of our brain the same on a fundamental level? At least we can be pretty sure that the simple nematode C. elegans does not care whether it lives as a worm in the ground or as a virtual worm on a computer hard drive.
Story Source:
Materials provided by Vienna University of Technology. Note: Content may be edited for style and length.
Journal Reference:
Mathias Lechner, Radu Grosu, Ramin M. Hasani. Worm-level Control through Search-based Reinforcement Learning. arXiv.org, 2017;
my comment - note the sentence: "But no human being has written even one line of code for this controller, it just emerged by training a biological nerve system," says Radu Grosu." anyway it should say: "training a simulation of a biological nerve system" also the last sentence is fun: "At least we can be pretty sure that the simple nematode C. elegans does not care whether it lives as a worm in the ground or as a virtual worm on a computer hard drive"
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,063
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I think the experiment on the nematode simulation is premature for any sweeping summaries.
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Vahn421
Awakening Moonlighter
Registered: 04/03/12
Posts: 2,162
Loc: Portland
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
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Solipsism, even if it was true for me, does not explain how the external world knows how mathematical and scientific principles exist independently of me, cuz I didn't know shit when I came into this world.
In other words, even if I only exist, I have to be more than my physical body because WHO discovered calculus? Who discovered gravity? I don't remember doing it, so if it's only me in this world, I must have forgotten somehow...
Or, perhaps, solipsism makes no sense.
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remake
Registered: 01/05/16
Posts: 4,201
Loc: South Africa
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: Vahn421]
#24995821 - 02/15/18 07:23 AM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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That's pretty good. A lot of what I am thinking as well. A solopsist might say he's here to gain knowledge from himself (being others) which he has "forgotten"...
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Vahn421
Awakening Moonlighter
Registered: 04/03/12
Posts: 2,162
Loc: Portland
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: remake]
#24995829 - 02/15/18 07:28 AM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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it's the same with my dream characters as well. They often say things that surprise me even though I know they aren't even real. LOL. So even my DREAMS don't feel solipsistic.
Of course, unlike dream characters, real human beings get very offended when you... A: Assume they don't exist or B: Assume they don't have a will of their own.
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remake
Registered: 01/05/16
Posts: 4,201
Loc: South Africa
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: Vahn421]
#24995835 - 02/15/18 07:30 AM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yes man, hundred percent. And you have to lie a bit to yourself, in my opinion.
I had a psychedelic experience on mushrooms once, and it clarified the uniqueness of everything, and through that, the interconnected nature...if that makes sense. It was really beautiful.
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Apples in Mono
Not a puppet
Registered: 09/21/17
Posts: 3,240
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: Vahn421]
#24995898 - 02/15/18 08:06 AM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Vahn421 said: Solipsism, even if it was true for me, does not explain how the external world knows how mathematical and scientific principles exist independently of me, cuz I didn't know shit when I came into this world.
In other words, even if I only exist, I have to be more than my physical body because WHO discovered calculus? Who discovered gravity? I don't remember doing it, so if it's only me in this world, I must have forgotten somehow...
Or, perhaps, solipsism makes no sense.
Do you know calculus? All of calculus? Can you comprehend all of calculus at one time? Maybe calculus doesn't exist. Maybe all that exists is the very limited concept of calculus that you're holding in your mind at this moment. Same with gravity. Same with your body. Same with the works of Shakespeare. I imagine that if we could extract and represent the entirety of your current, conscious model of any of these items- what your mind is actually holding at this very moment- we'd see something quite different, and much less complex- much less impressive
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Vahn421
Awakening Moonlighter
Registered: 04/03/12
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Loc: Portland
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
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Quote:
Apples in Mono said:
Maybe calculus doesn't exist.
Math is the purest philosophy of all. The word, "Calculus" is just made up, but math is very real. You'll never be able to change that 1 + 1 = 2 and 1 + 0 = 1
Still, *I* didn't figure all this shit out on my own, so clearly this playground is built for more than just myself.
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Apples in Mono
Not a puppet
Registered: 09/21/17
Posts: 3,240
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: Vahn421]
#24995930 - 02/15/18 08:22 AM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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Apples in Mono said:I imagine that if we could extract and represent the entirety of your current, conscious model of any of these items- what your mind is actually holding at this very moment- we'd see something quite different, and much less complex- much less impressive
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Vahn said: 1 + 1 = 2 and 1 + 0 = 1
Looks like we got our extraction and representation. Just as i suspected, much less complex, much less impressive
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Vahn421
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Quote:
Apples in Mono said:
Quote:
Apples in Mono said:I imagine that if we could extract and represent the entirety of your current, conscious model of any of these items- what your mind is actually holding at this very moment- we'd see something quite different, and much less complex- much less impressive
Quote:
Vahn said: 1 + 1 = 2 and 1 + 0 = 1
Looks like we got our extraction and representation. Just as i suspected, much less complex, much less impressive
LMFAO. What is this? First of all, what's, "complex and impressive?" To you? If my answer isn't impressive to you, surely you have some sort of standard to compare by if you're not just talking out your ass.
Second of all, you're implying that in some model of some Universe or existence of reality someWHERE, that 1 + 1 can equal something other than 2.
If you're asserting this, than you're either naive or willingly playing the role of a trickster hoping to deceive, so which is it?
Edited by Vahn421 (02/15/18 08:35 AM)
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redgreenvines
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: Vahn421]
#24996110 - 02/15/18 09:58 AM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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you could have taught yourself math. math is very basic, you could even have discovered calculus, you are way smarter than you think. HOWEVER, we do exist out here, and other people have written great books on math that create very stable thinking frameworks that function beautifully when you spend time getting to know them intimately. I know i have been too busy with other things to have written those books.
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Apples in Mono
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: Vahn421]
#25007247 - 02/20/18 04:26 AM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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Vahn421 said: LMFAO. What is this? First of all, what's, "complex and impressive?" To you? If my answer isn't impressive to you, surely you have some sort of standard to compare by if you're not just talking out your ass.
Second of all, you're implying that in some model of some Universe or existence of reality someWHERE, that 1 + 1 can equal something other than 2.
If you're asserting this, than you're either naive or willingly playing the role of a trickster hoping to deceive, so which is it?
I don't need a universal standard of complexity to realize that calculus is more complex than 1+1=2, just as i don't need a universal standard of height to realize that 6 ft is taller than 6 cm. I'm not sure what you're confused about here.
I certainly never implied that 1+1 could ever equal anything other than 2. Of course they couldn't, we define them that way. I can't figure out how you came up with that.
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redgreenvines said: you could have taught yourself math. math is very basic, you could even have discovered calculus, you are way smarter than you think. HOWEVER, we do exist out here, and other people have written great books on math that create very stable thinking frameworks that function beautifully when you spend time getting to know them intimately. I know i have been too busy with other things to have written those books.
You're falling into the same fallacy i highlighted in vahn's argument. You're failing to consider that perhaps those books were never written. Perhaps those ideas you think are in those books have never even been conceptualized. Perhaps there wasn't even any time for them to have been. Perhaps you only came into existence just now. Perhaps all that exists are the vague contents of your mind at this exact moment
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Middleman
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Those are bold statements.
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Apples in Mono
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: Middleman]
#25007257 - 02/20/18 04:47 AM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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A pretty standard, basic agnosticism, really. The inevitable result of a straightforward application of proper skepticism. A far bolder statement would be the claim to have solved the problem of solipsism
Edited by Apples in Mono (02/20/18 04:52 AM)
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redgreenvines
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or the underlying problem of all problems. the root cause of suffering. (probably delusion, since hatred and greed are also forms of delusion and they are normally provided as the 3 roots of all suffering)
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Ferdinando
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I could just see it maybe. it's like that those things are (the idea?) that a higher peak, like (in) quality is destruction. just saw it that way, just an image.
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Apples in Mono
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: or the underlying problem of all problems. the root cause of suffering. (probably delusion, since hatred and greed are also forms of delusion and they are normally provided as the 3 roots of all suffering)
You digress
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BlueCoyote
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redgreenvines said: or the underlying problem of all problems. the root cause of suffering. (probably delusion, since hatred and greed are also forms of delusion and they are normally provided as the 3 roots of all suffering)
There are two ways of suffering which overlap. One is the buddhist 'attachment'. The other one is real physical pain of being hurt. At one point of this, if one is too detached, this becomes lethal or leads to serious impairment.
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redgreenvines
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: BlueCoyote]
#25008233 - 02/20/18 02:06 PM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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Buddhist detachment can be seen as 1) NOT IDENTIFYING with the pain or irritating event, or 2) bare attention, i.e. using relaxed awareness to NOT REACT to stimuli with ideas, or anything.
suffering is mostly about cultivation of pain, reliving pain, avoiding relief of repetition of pain.
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BlueCoyote
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Yah, but if one wouldn't take pain as a warning signal, one seriously would head into death real quick, I would assume. So there needs to be a balance between those two concepts of suffering.
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BrendanFlock
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Quote:
Apples in Mono said:
Quote:
Vahn421 said: LMFAO. What is this? First of all, what's, "complex and impressive?" To you? If my answer isn't impressive to you, surely you have some sort of standard to compare by if you're not just talking out your ass.
Second of all, you're implying that in some model of some Universe or existence of reality someWHERE, that 1 + 1 can equal something other than 2.
If you're asserting this, than you're either naive or willingly playing the role of a trickster hoping to deceive, so which is it?
I don't need a universal standard of complexity to realize that calculus is more complex than 1+1=2, just as i don't need a universal standard of height to realize that 6 ft is taller than 6 cm. I'm not sure what you're confused about here.
I certainly never implied that 1+1 could ever equal anything other than 2. Of course they couldn't, we define them that way. I can't figure out how you came up with that.
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redgreenvines said: you could have taught yourself math. math is very basic, you could even have discovered calculus, you are way smarter than you think. HOWEVER, we do exist out here, and other people have written great books on math that create very stable thinking frameworks that function beautifully when you spend time getting to know them intimately. I know i have been too busy with other things to have written those books.
You're falling into the same fallacy i highlighted in vahn's argument. You're failing to consider that perhaps those books were never written. Perhaps those ideas you think are in those books have never even been conceptualized. Perhaps there wasn't even any time for them to have been. Perhaps you only came into existence just now. Perhaps all that exists are the vague contents of your mind at this exact moment
So what your left with is pure experience.. could you tell whats going on, but there is no cause and effect?
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sudly
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Quote:
Apples in Mono said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said: you could have taught yourself math. math is very basic, you could even have discovered calculus, you are way smarter than you think. HOWEVER, we do exist out here, and other people have written great books on math that create very stable thinking frameworks that function beautifully when you spend time getting to know them intimately. I know i have been too busy with other things to have written those books.
You're falling into the same fallacy i highlighted in vahn's argument. You're failing to consider that perhaps those books were never written. Perhaps those ideas you think are in those books have never even been conceptualized. Perhaps there wasn't even any time for them to have been. Perhaps you only came into existence just now. Perhaps all that exists are the vague contents of your mind at this exact moment
Consider it considered.
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It's useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into. - Jonathan Swift
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Apples in Mono
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Quote:
BrendanFlock said: So what your left with is pure experience.. could you tell whats going on, but there is no cause and effect?
Sure there is. Maybe it's just self contained. Or it could have a basis in something outside of itself which isn't included in the experience. It actually just leaves us with all of the same metaphysical problems that philosophers have been contemplating for millennia.
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sudly said: Consider it considered.
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It's useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into. - Jonathan Swift
I don't believe that you actually have considered it. And you seem to think that i actually hold this to be true or likely true. I don't. I haven't stated that i do, nor have i suggested that anyone else should. In fact, i feel quite confident that it isn't true. I'm merely pointing out that i can't honestly rule it out. I seem to have no way of doing so and I don't think you do either.
Descartes understood this well. And yes, he reasoned his way into it.
Welcome to philosophy
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redgreenvines
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when kids are very young they will ask "but why, daddy?" to everything you tell them. this could go on for hours if you let it, for days and years if you teach them to be totally self indulgent.
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Apples in Mono
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Philo sophia
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sudly
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What can't you rule out?
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Zanthius
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: sudly]
#25010759 - 02/21/18 02:31 PM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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Apples in Mono
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: sudly]
#25011004 - 02/21/18 04:04 PM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: What can't you rule out?
The possibility of some sort of solipsistic metaphysical reality
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sudly
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: Zanthius]
#25012210 - 02/22/18 12:24 AM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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That would be a sad existence
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sudly
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I may not be able to rule out the possibility but I can suggest that its probability is as likely as my next turd being gold.
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Apples in Mono
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: sudly]
#25012262 - 02/22/18 01:01 AM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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It's a philosophical thought experiment. And it would only be as sad as your current existence because it would be exactly the same
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sudly
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I don't see how believing that I'm in a virtual world would make it more immersive or fun.
I like to feel as though I'm a part of the natural world I find myself in, and in my view this sort of thought experiment is one that would disconnect us from nature, and dehumanise us.
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Apples in Mono
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: sudly]
#25012357 - 02/22/18 02:52 AM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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That's absurd. You aren't supposed to accept it as true or want it to be true. That isn't the point. There's nothing dehumanizing about a thought experiment. In fact, thought experiments seem to be uniquely human. Is this not the philosophy forum?
Edited by Apples in Mono (02/22/18 02:54 AM)
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sudly
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You're a part of a super computer that's connected to millions of plasma souls.. you're not really a lad or lass sitting in the grass.
To me that is a dehumanising suggestion.
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Apples in Mono
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: sudly]
#25012393 - 02/22/18 03:39 AM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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I said nothimg about computers or "plasma souls", whatever that means. And i never suggested that you aren't a human
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sudly
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I was referring to Zanthius's post when I mentioned a sad existence.
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Apples in Mono
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: sudly]
#25012399 - 02/22/18 03:44 AM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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Oh. I see
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Zanthius
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: sudly]
#25012436 - 02/22/18 04:41 AM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: I was referring to Zanthius's post when I mentioned a sad existence.
Well, I got this idea after an Ibogaine experience, when it seemed like the external world was literally dissolving in front of my eyes. It also felt like I had access to much more processing power from the supercomputer that our viritual world exists inside of. I also got this wierd idea that Ibogaine hadn't really always existed in the history record for this virtual world, but that it had somehow hacked itself into our history record.
Natural or virtual. I don't know if it really makes so much difference in the end. There is something called the holographic principle, which kinda seems to imply that it is just a matter of perspective if you see the world as natural or virtual.
Entropy in thermodynamics and in information theory are not necessarily two separate phenomena:
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We present an experiment in which a one-bit memory is constructed, using a system of a single colloidal particle trapped in a modulated double-well potential. We measure the amount of heat dissipated to erase a bit and we establish that in the limit of long erasure cycles the mean dissipated heat saturates at the Landauer bound, i.e. the minimal quantity of heat necessarily produced to delete a classical bit of information. This result demonstrates the intimate link between information theory and thermodynamics. To stress this connection we also show that a detailed Jarzynski equality is verified, retrieving the Landauer’s bound independently of the work done on the system. The experimental details are presented and the experimental errors carefully discussed
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1503.06537.pdf
Edited by Zanthius (02/22/18 05:28 AM)
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sudly
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: Zanthius]
#25014580 - 02/22/18 09:08 PM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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The word virtual doesn't even come up in that PDF..
If it doesn't appear to make a difference if the world is virtual then it being real seems the easier fit, no need for the weird extra stuff about space computers and plasma souls.
What do you think is the benefit of a virtual world? Or at least the perspective of it, because to me it sounds like an idea that projects fear of there being no afterlife.
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akira_akuma
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: sudly]
#25014616 - 02/22/18 09:25 PM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Entropy in thermodynamics and in information theory are not necessarily two separate phenomena:
except that they are, kinda. but you can extrapolate (in my opinion) that the two are not entirely dichotomous, for obvious reasons, hence you can interpret the processes and contrast the two.
https://www.minds.com/blog/view/788651379341135872 On Significator/Potentiator Matrix
In the Determinate Structure of "Spacetime", you have four pathways of note, four nodes-- 1: Station, your overall coordinates' start and end points, simultaneously (like a circular pattern)-- 2: Character, your overarching character that your start point entails you to have and that which you develop and evolve over time (like cycles, or "waves", or "gyres")-- 3: Position, your exact coordinates within any specific timeframe, as it's been visited or that you are presently visiting-- 4: Time, the manifold framework/operations/mechanics of the universe providing the Standpoint from which to perceive and grow, through spacetime, as a field and/or "matrix", in which "potentiators" and "significators" actualize (with which we "Disseminate : Conceive : Perceive : Receive" information, that which information goes through Modes Of Dispersal, which include the Hot1, Wet3, Cold2 Cycle-Revolution-Process [remember Dialectics of three] of entropic and biological tendencies as with rocks, just the same as mind and language and games, memetics, information, et al).
It then follows that therein the Intellectual Structure of the Mind, or "Nous", the Circuit of the Psyche, Ego, and Consciousness, has within it the four pathways of note-- 1: Aesthetics, the framework and "ideal" (thus subjective- or if objective, strictly religious, ie, a metaphysics twain with Godhood instead of any sort of Agnosticism) with which to perceive, and aim to construct, the world-- 2: Magical, the notational and notional, the receipts and recordings of The Circuit via memory, or via extraneous ("astral") sources, eg, intelligence-- 3: Factual, this includes philosophy, economics, technology and politics (et al); the precipitable self (but not "Atman") as current trends develop and theories evolve, and the mapping of what outlays are preferable or useable to the Present Self (or "Atman"), or unconsciously driven, as the Absent Self (Precipitable Self) (Doing With Nothing Significant To The "Atman")-- and 4: Precipitable, eg, the empirical or phenomenological, interpreting the texts and signs (Hermeneutics) of Non-Individuation (The Text), the Collective Will (via Historical Propaganda???), for the sake of Consensus --- The formative world as constantly reformatting itself, consistently as a child does, coming apart, and then reintegrating itself in order to learn from it's surroundings and it's own self, and it's own "potentiators and "significators" that are given therein. Addendum:
People get bored with each other through lack of intellectual (and other) stimulation, it is a constant power struggle, which includes other potential beings as well...one must keep the other on a pretty tight leash, but also must not forget to maintain dominance in the hierarchy, that of which depends on the marriage, but ultimately which depends on control, even if it's artificial, such as entertainment- ie, "well, look at that- ain't that something, but you can't have it, because there is no way it's going to be as good for you as it is for me", or something to that effect (which can be applied to mates as well.) The mundane, like lunch, is conformed to the Positive-Incentive For Hunger. One collects variety in order to "Stock Up" and store for the sake of survival...storage and recording are facets of the mind, the human condition, that needs to be explored evermore.
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sudly
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1. Shibashabadu 2. Batman 3. My chicken drumsticks were delicious
What ever the fluck you people are on, don't throw your needles down the drain, I don't want to have to pud on waders to collect them and put them in the bin.
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akira_akuma
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: sudly]
#25014646 - 02/22/18 09:35 PM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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sounds excellent for you to wade though needle filled waters, after all, it's a unique sensory experience, something you'd admire, no?
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r00tcmplx
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Quote:
Apples in Mono said: Philo sophia
Ayyyyy
Quote:
akira_akuma said: ...
Quite the discussion going on in here. You guys are definitely ready for a play date. I'm very excited and I hope you are.
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sudly
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Quote:
akira_akuma said: sounds excellent for you to wade though needle filled waters, after all, it's a unique sensory experience, something you'd admire, no?
Usually there aren't needles in the water, just swamp hens and ducks, and lots of typha.
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Apples in Mono
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: sudly]
#25014688 - 02/22/18 09:57 PM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: 1. Shibashabadu 2. Batman 3. My chicken drumsticks were delicious
What ever the fluck you people are on, don't throw your needles down the drain, I don't want to have to pud on waders to collect them and put them in the bin.
Like i said, welcome to philosophy. If you aren't a fan of philosophizing, you might consider another forum
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sudly
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I ain't into magic yo.
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Apples in Mono
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: sudly] 1
#25014732 - 02/22/18 10:17 PM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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Apparently you are, because you seem to think that you have access to some superior epistemology that the rest of us don't. You seem to think that you've outdone Descartes, Kant, Socrates, etc.
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sudly
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You all have access to it too.
Descartes was a nut who thought the world existed only in his mind, dunno about Kant or Socrates and I don't see how they're relevant.
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Apples in Mono
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: sudly] 1
#25014759 - 02/22/18 10:29 PM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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No, Descartes did not believe anything of the sort. He merely recognized that he had no way of escaping his experience and validating it externally. Kant understood this as well. So did Socrates. So did every great thinker who ever expressed their epistemology. And they're relevant because this is a philosophical discussion in a philosophy forum. Am i missing something?
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akira_akuma
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Quote:
You all have access to it too.
and you have access to it too.
Edited by akira_akuma (02/22/18 10:38 PM)
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sudly
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I've validated it externally =)
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Apples in Mono
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: sudly]
#25014779 - 02/22/18 10:37 PM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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Well please elaborate. How so?
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sudly
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I exist, and I type, and I feel the sensations I do, and I understand that when I think a certain way my body responds by releasing adrenaline and providing me with the energy to run away.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Apples in Mono
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: sudly]
#25014802 - 02/22/18 10:45 PM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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So you're saying that you have an experience. And?
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sudly
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I'm saying I am an experience, and that I'm geared into this reality through the virtue of nature.
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Apples in Mono
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: sudly]
#25014820 - 02/22/18 10:55 PM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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But what do you have access to that doesn't come to you through your subjective experience?
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sudly
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You and I, we share the same nervous system.
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Apples in Mono
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: sudly] 1
#25014859 - 02/22/18 11:18 PM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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Well, no. We definitely don't. We each have our own. But what i'm asking is how you are able to verify to yourself that such a thing as a nervous system, or anything else, exists objectively outside of your experience? That anything else is actually what Kant referred to as a "thing-in-itself"?
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akira_akuma
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: sudly]
#25014860 - 02/22/18 11:20 PM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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logic dictates that one cannot be a thing and simultaneously be an observer of that very same thing, without separation- this is the self.
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sudly
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We may not share the same physical one, but anatomically we certainly do, that's evolution baby.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Apples in Mono
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: sudly]
#25014869 - 02/22/18 11:24 PM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yes, it's very similar to yours, but that's irrelevant to the question at hand
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sudly
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Pretty sure I have a heart.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Apples in Mono
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: sudly]
#25014893 - 02/22/18 11:36 PM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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As am i, but pretty sure isn't certain
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sudly
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The probability that I don't have a heart isn't something I'd make a bet on.
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Apples in Mono
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: sudly]
#25014902 - 02/22/18 11:43 PM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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Good. You'd be retarded to do so. But that's entirely beside the point. It's still a probabilistic confidence, never arriving at 100%. Which means that you don't get certainty. Which means that you never technically prove anything to yourself. And on that very slim chance that you're incorrect about your nervous system, or anything else- or perhaps even everything else, you have no way of verifying it
Edited by Apples in Mono (02/22/18 11:51 PM)
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sudly
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What even is your stance? I think solipsism is borderline schizophrenic and narcissistic, the idea that I'm the only person in the world that matters and that my thoughts effect the physical world in and of their own.
I say I like nature. I say I'm real, I say I exist. I say I experience, I say I feel. I say I am certain I have a heart.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Apples in Mono
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: sudly] 1
#25014928 - 02/23/18 12:06 AM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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My stance is that there is a gigantic difference between a metaphysical solipsist(an individual who actually believes that the external world doesn't exist objectively), and a methodological/epistemological solipsist(an individual who recognizes that they have no way of actually verifying an objective external world outside of their experience). It's a huge distinction that you and many others don't seem to grasp, and it seems to cause many of you to become offended, as if i'm telling you that i don't recognize your existence, or that i'm minimizing your existence, or that i lack empathy. None of this is even remotely true. I'm just trying to be philosophically consistent
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sudly
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There is no difference, just ignorance, which means not knowing.
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Apples in Mono
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: sudly]
#25014936 - 02/23/18 12:17 AM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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I have never, to my knowledge, even met a metaphysical solipsist. I suspect you haven't either
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sudly
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I have met some freaky people, one lad brought a snake to the ping pong table, another mentioned how he wanted to punch people who thought the mind was physical.
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Apples in Mono
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: sudly]
#25014947 - 02/23/18 12:25 AM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yeah, i've met some real nuts too, who very well may have believed they were a brain in a vat, but i'm talking certifiable nut jobs
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sudly
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I believe I am a mind that is greater than the sum of its parts.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Apples in Mono
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: sudly] 1
#25014960 - 02/23/18 12:35 AM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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Well it really does seem that way. That's what David Chalmers calls the "hard problem" of consciousness; how a series of physical processes could possibly translate to subjective experience- how to draw a logical line from the physical to the mental. Dan Dennett disagrees that the hard problem even exists. He thinks it's just a series of small problems, and that the hard problem is a bit of an illusion
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sudly
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I can feel my own fears and excitement.
Quote:
Property dualism is quite different – it states that the mind is fully a property of matter, but that it cannot be reduced to the the simple processes of the brain. There is some non-reducible aspect of consciousness that requires a separate (but physical) explanation other than neurons firing and exchanging neurotransmitters. It is astounding that Egnor would use the arguments of a property dualist to support his cartesian dualism – without ever making the distinction clear. Egnor uses a tactic well-known to his creationist buddies – mine for quotes that can be made to seem as if they support your position, when they don’t.
As we can see, Dr. Egnor is profoundly confused on multiple levels. He has confused different types of dualism, he has misrepresented Chalmers’ arguments and position, he has mischaracterized my position in multiple ways, he has confused philosophy and science, and he has confused different scientific questions – most notably the question of “does” the brain cause consciousness with the question of “how” the brain causes consciousness.
https://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/michael-egnor-cartesian-dualism-david-chalmers-and-the-hard-nonproblem/
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Psychaesthetics
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: sudly]
#25015103 - 02/23/18 03:06 AM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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Once you get the feeling or insight that you are the universe, you shouldn't become an inflated solipsist, although this often happens.
I think it SHOULD abolish all separation, and that the distance/difference between 1 observer and another is incalculable.
-------------------- As below, so above
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sudly
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Quote:
You are a part of the universe.
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Psychaesthetics
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: sudly]
#25015142 - 02/23/18 03:47 AM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said:
Quote:
You are a part of the universe.
Saying you are only part of the universe implies that whatever part you don't make up, is not you. I think this is false and that we should abandon absolute thought.
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sudly
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It seems pretty evident we consist of stardust, don't think I'd go so far as to say you make up the moon.. because I think that's absolute crap.
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Psychaesthetics
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: sudly]
#25015154 - 02/23/18 04:07 AM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: It seems pretty evident we consist of stardust, don't think I'd go so far as to say you make up the moon.. because I think that's absolute crap.
Well then I have to ask what is meant with "you". Does it not include one's sensory awareness?
The problem arises when looking from an egocentric point of view, as if one says "I am the universe and you are therefore me, but I am not you."
This is not what's meant.
When you abandon all absolute thought/measure, it won't get to your head when you feel/see that You are the entire universe. It would be humbling actually.
-------------------- As below, so above
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akira_akuma
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: sudly]
#25015548 - 02/23/18 09:39 AM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: It seems pretty evident we consist of stardust, don't think I'd go so far as to say you make up the moon.. because I think that's absolute crap.
sure, don't address anything. just put your blinders on and feign ignorance.
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Apples in Mono
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I gotta give it to sudly on this one. To say that there is no meaningful distinction that can be drawn between different items in the universe is a bunch of psuedoprofound, new age, drivel. Or a bunch of pseudoprofound, old-school, eastern drivel. Either way It's essentially meaningless
Edited by Apples in Mono (02/23/18 09:51 AM)
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Psychaesthetics
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Quote:
Apples in Mono said: I gotta give it to sudly on this one. To say that there is no meaningful distinction that can be drawn between different items in the universe is a bunch of psuedoprofound, new age, drivel. Or a bunch of pseudoprofound, old-school, eastern drivel. Either way It's essentially meaningless
It actually goes in theory when you study sound or air pressure. You come to realize that these things are omnipresent.
You must be confused by thinking that such a thing as "empty" space exists, but there has to be a medium to define these differences, you can't just say: "Here's something, and there's nothing."
This is proven to be false by science. There are media everywhere.
-------------------- As below, so above
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akira_akuma
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Quote:
Psychaesthetics said:
Quote:
Apples in Mono said: I gotta give it to sudly on this one. To say that there is no meaningful distinction that can be drawn between different items in the universe is a bunch of psuedoprofound, new age, drivel. Or a bunch of pseudoprofound, old-school, eastern drivel. Either way It's essentially meaningless
It actually goes in theory when you study sound or air pressure. You come to realize that these things are omnipresent.
You must be confused by thinking that such a thing as "empty" space exists, but there has to be a medium to define these differences, you can't just say: "Here's something, and there's nothing."
This is proven to be false by science. There are media everywhere.
yep.
sucking-in-and-expelling-out. a universal force.
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Apples in Mono
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One can create a seemless color wheel. This does not mean that there is no meaningful distinction to be made between yellow and purple
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redgreenvines
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heavy topic drift going on
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Apples in Mono
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They started it
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Psychaesthetics
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In regard to the topic. I think solipsism is a super schizophrenic and one-sided view that literally sounds like a vacuum without release (impossible).
I think however, saying that one is the universe is simply an observation that can be made during meditation, or spiritual insight. Spirit comes from the Latin word 'spiritus', meaning 'breath', or 'wind'. Hence my comment about media.
Matter is not separated by space, and in the same way there is no distinction between self and other.
-------------------- As below, so above
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Psychaesthetics
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Quote:
akira_akuma said:
Quote:
Psychaesthetics said:
Quote:
Apples in Mono said: I gotta give it to sudly on this one. To say that there is no meaningful distinction that can be drawn between different items in the universe is a bunch of psuedoprofound, new age, drivel. Or a bunch of pseudoprofound, old-school, eastern drivel. Either way It's essentially meaningless
It actually goes in theory when you study sound or air pressure. You come to realize that these things are omnipresent.
You must be confused by thinking that such a thing as "empty" space exists, but there has to be a medium to define these differences, you can't just say: "Here's something, and there's nothing."
This is proven to be false by science. There are media everywhere.
yep.
sucking-in-and-expelling-out. a universal force.
Yes The Universal Equilibrium!
-------------------- As below, so above
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Apples in Mono
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*metaphysical solipsism
And yes, there is a difference between purple and yellow
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akira_akuma
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Quote:
Psychaesthetics said:
Quote:
akira_akuma said:
Quote:
Psychaesthetics said:
Quote:
Apples in Mono said: I gotta give it to sudly on this one. To say that there is no meaningful distinction that can be drawn between different items in the universe is a bunch of psuedoprofound, new age, drivel. Or a bunch of pseudoprofound, old-school, eastern drivel. Either way It's essentially meaningless
It actually goes in theory when you study sound or air pressure. You come to realize that these things are omnipresent.
You must be confused by thinking that such a thing as "empty" space exists, but there has to be a medium to define these differences, you can't just say: "Here's something, and there's nothing."
This is proven to be false by science. There are media everywhere.
yep.
sucking-in-and-expelling-out. a universal force.
Yes The Universal Equilibrium!
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Apples in Mono
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"Matter is not separated by space, and in the same way there is no distinction between self and other."
"sucking-in-and-expelling-out. a universal force."
"Yes The Universal Equilibrium!"
A ypu guys plagiarizing from this site?
http://sebpearce.com/bullshit/
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Psychaesthetics
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Quote:
Apples in Mono said: "Matter is not separated by space, and in the same way there is no distinction between self and other."
"sucking-in-and-expelling-out. a universal force."
"Yes The Universal Equilibrium!"
A ypu guys plagiarizing from this site?
http://sebpearce.com/bullshit/
No, but you sound like your education ceased as soon as you left school. Or like a Newtonian patriot who thinks that an inertial frame of reference is realistic.
You also sound like you don't know what we are actually talking about.
-------------------- As below, so above
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Psychaesthetics
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Quote:
Apples in Mono said: *metaphysical solipsism
And yes, there is a difference between purple and yellow
Whatever, the title doesn't say metaphysical solipsism.
Also I would like to hear your concept of the 'Self' as you seem to draw a distinction between "normal" solipsism and "metaphysical solipsism"...
Actually the difference between purple and yellow is frequential. Let me give you an analogy:
The rims of a car spinning at a slow speed seem like slow spinning rims. As this car accelerates, the rims begin to LOOK like a flat disc. Have the rims changed? Nope. Has its appearance changed? Yep.
Purple and yellow are the SAME LIGHT at difference frequencies.
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sudly
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Quote:
Psychaesthetics said:
Quote:
sudly said: It seems pretty evident we consist of stardust, don't think I'd go so far as to say you make up the moon.. because I think that's absolute crap.
Well then I have to ask what is meant with "you". Does it not include one's sensory awareness?
The problem arises when looking from an egocentric point of view, as if one says "I am the universe and you are therefore me, but I am not you."
This is not what's meant.
When you abandon all absolute thought/measure, it won't get to your head when you feel/see that You are the entire universe. It would be humbling actually.
I would say you, the being in control of your fingers, has the ability to take up sensory information from the environment you find yourself within, though I would not include the things in the environment that you are aware of as you. Otherwise that would mean that when you're looking at a rock, or looking at a tree, that you are the rock, and that you are the tree, or that when looking at a dildo, you are the dildo.
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Psychaesthetics
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: sudly]
#25016688 - 02/23/18 05:30 PM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said:
Quote:
Psychaesthetics said:
Quote:
sudly said: It seems pretty evident we consist of stardust, don't think I'd go so far as to say you make up the moon.. because I think that's absolute crap.
Well then I have to ask what is meant with "you". Does it not include one's sensory awareness?
The problem arises when looking from an egocentric point of view, as if one says "I am the universe and you are therefore me, but I am not you."
This is not what's meant.
When you abandon all absolute thought/measure, it won't get to your head when you feel/see that You are the entire universe. It would be humbling actually.
I would say you, the being in control of your fingers, has the ability to take up sensory information from the environment you find yourself within, though I would not include the things in the environment that you are aware of as you. Otherwise that would mean that when you're looking at a rock, or looking at a tree, that you are the rock, and that you are the tree, or that when looking at a dildo, you are the dildo.
I would say that. And I would also say that whatever inspired me to move my fingers is me too.
This is a very common Eastern notion, and it should be studied, not blindly discredited. (I'm not saying that you are blindly discrediting, but some in this post are)
Alan Watts was great at translating this point of view, he did it much better than I could.
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sudly
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Quote:
akira_akuma said:
Quote:
sudly said: It seems pretty evident we consist of stardust, don't think I'd go so far as to say you make up the moon.. because I think that's absolute crap.
sure, don't address anything. just put your blinders on and feign ignorance.
What am I not addressing? Could you sum up whatever it is.
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Psychaesthetics
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But having said that, I have to add that this disagreement is part of the whole, and therefore I think I might step away from a never ending argument.
The dog won't catch its own tail.
-------------------- As below, so above
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sudly
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Quote:
Apples in Mono said: I gotta give it to sudly on this one. To say that there is no meaningful distinction that can be drawn between different items in the universe is a bunch of psuedoprofound, new age, drivel. Or a bunch of pseudoprofound, old-school, eastern drivel. Either way It's essentially meaningless
What is the difference between believing in solipsism and believing there is no way of varifying an objective world.
In my view they both posit of an entirely subjective view point.
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sudly
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: sudly]
#25016709 - 02/23/18 05:38 PM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said:
How you and I began
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Psychaesthetics
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: sudly]
#25016718 - 02/23/18 05:41 PM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said:
Quote:
Apples in Mono said: I gotta give it to sudly on this one. To say that there is no meaningful distinction that can be drawn between different items in the universe is a bunch of psuedoprofound, new age, drivel. Or a bunch of pseudoprofound, old-school, eastern drivel. Either way It's essentially meaningless
What is the difference between believing in solipsism and believing there is no way of varifying an objective world.
In my view they both posit of an entirely subjective view point.
Imagine you were the only point of awareness in YOUR universe, this could only be balanced/fathomable if you apply multiverses. And I really think this is already the case, right here, right now.
Because I previously stated:
"I think it SHOULD abolish all separation, and that the distance/difference between 1 observer and another is incalculable."
Literally incalculable. "Universes" apart.
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: sudly]
#25016724 - 02/23/18 05:43 PM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said:
Quote:
Apples in Mono said: I gotta give it to sudly on this one. To say that there is no meaningful distinction that can be drawn between different items in the universe is a bunch of psuedoprofound, new age, drivel. Or a bunch of pseudoprofound, old-school, eastern drivel. Either way It's essentially meaningless
What is the difference between believing in solipsism and believing there is no way of varifying an objective world.
In my view they both posit of an entirely subjective view point.
And what if you throw in empathy? Is that something to be disregarded by the solipsist?
I always used to say: "if you treat something as your own, it is yours"
-------------------- As below, so above
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sudly
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Imagine if you were a potato, you could be a chip in another universe, or a dip in the next. I am the potato chip, I am the dip.
Treat others right, probably not as your own..
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Psychaesthetics
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: sudly]
#25016779 - 02/23/18 06:07 PM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: Imagine if you were a potato, you could be a chip in another universe, or a dip in the next. I am the potato chip, I am the dip.
Treat others right, probably not as your own..
Actually I was talking more in terms of a body part.
Treat somebody as you would have your own body treated in a given situation.
Fuck material "possessions", if you apply the other things I've said then you can't own property, but only be it.
The word "possession" itself should already say enough.
-------------------- As below, so above
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Apples in Mono
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Quote:
Psychaesthetics said:
Quote:
Apples in Mono said: "Matter is not separated by space, and in the same way there is no distinction between self and other."
"sucking-in-and-expelling-out. a universal force."
"Yes The Universal Equilibrium!"
A ypu guys plagiarizing from this site?
http://sebpearce.com/bullshit/
No, but you sound like your education ceased as soon as you left school. Or like a Newtonian patriot who thinks that an inertial frame of reference is realistic.
You also sound like you don't know what we are actually talking about.
I've encountered your argument many times. Deepak Chopra uses it often. He also embarrasses himself often. You're claiming that science validates your new age woo woo. It certainly doesn't. You actually just described one meaningful distinction between purple and yellow yourself. There are also others at other levels. There are meaningful distinctions at the level of subjective experience or qualia, there are meaningful distinctions at the molecular level of the pigments. There are very useful, meaningful reasons why we call purple and yellow by different names. The same can be said of individuals, as well as other items within the universe.
Yes, there are also ways in which lines of interconnectedness can be drawn, but that does not invalidate the meaningful distinctions we make, nor does it validate new age woo woo.
And i don't know what "normal solipsism" means. I've already made abundantly clear the distinction between solipsism as a metaphysical or ontological position, and solipsism as an epistemological or methodological position. The former believes in a solipsistic metaphysical reality. The latter does not. HUGE difference. If you guys can't see that yet then i really don't expect you too now, and to be honest, it baffles me
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sudly
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Everything is created subjectively or everything is subjective, take your pick.
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Apples in Mono
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: sudly]
#25016846 - 02/23/18 06:29 PM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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False dichotomy. And a bizzare one given my stated positions. Did you understand antrhing i just said? Is this thing on?
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Psychaesthetics
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Lol.
I'm just gonna keep it at: "The dog won't catch its own tail."
Good luck with finding your self, Apples in Mono.
-------------------- As below, so above
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Apples in Mono
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You mean finding us? I don't hsve to look. I already know that we are everywhere and everything. And that is a totally meaningful and profound statement
Edited by Apples in Mono (02/23/18 06:52 PM)
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Psychaesthetics
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Quote:
Apples in Mono said:
Quote:
Psychaesthetics said:
Quote:
Apples in Mono said: "Matter is not separated by space, and in the same way there is no distinction between self and other."
"sucking-in-and-expelling-out. a universal force."
"Yes The Universal Equilibrium!"
A ypu guys plagiarizing from this site?
http://sebpearce.com/bullshit/
No, but you sound like your education ceased as soon as you left school. Or like a Newtonian patriot who thinks that an inertial frame of reference is realistic.
You also sound like you don't know what we are actually talking about.
I've encountered your argument many times. Deepak Chopra uses it often. He also embarrasses himself often. You're claiming that science validates your new age woo woo. It certainly doesn't. You actually just described one meaningful distinction between purple and yellow yourself. There are also others at other levels. There are meaningful distinctions at the level of subjective experience or qualia, there are meaningful distinctions at the molecular level of the pigments. There are very useful, meaningful reasons why we call purple and yellow by different names. The same can be said of individuals, as well as other items within the universe.
Yes, there are also ways in which lines of interconnectedness can be drawn, but that does not invalidate the meaningful distinctions we make, nor does it validate new age woo woo.
And i don't know what "normal solipsism" means. I've already made abundantly clear the distinction between solipsism as a metaphysical or ontological position, and solipsism as an epistemological or methodological position. The former believes in a solipsistic metaphysical reality. The latter does not. HUGE difference. If you guys can't see that yet then i really don't expect you too now, and to be honest, it baffles me
Also what argument are you talking about. I didn't state anything, just what I thought you sounded like.
I don't know this Deepak guy and I probably will not resonate with his interpretation.
I suggest you listen to Alan Watts, because, like I said, he words it better than I do. Says, the same stuff, and does not embarrass himself whatsoever.
-------------------- As below, so above
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Psychaesthetics
Learner
Registered: 10/16/13
Posts: 100
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 5 years, 11 months
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Quote:
Apples in Mono said: You mean finding us?
No, I actually meant THE Self.
-------------------- As below, so above
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sudly
Quasar Praiser
Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 11,242
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Quote:
Apples in Mono said: And i don't know what "normal solipsism" means. I've already made abundantly clear the distinction between solipsism as a metaphysical or ontological position, and solipsism as an epistemological or methodological position. The former believes in a solipsistic metaphysical reality. The latter does not. HUGE difference. If you guys can't see that yet then i really don't expect you too now, and to be honest, it baffles me
So what does the latter believe in?
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
Edited by sudly (02/23/18 06:57 PM)
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Psychaesthetics
Learner
Registered: 10/16/13
Posts: 100
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 5 years, 11 months
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Quote:
Apples in Mono said: You mean finding us? I don't hsve to look. I already know that we are everywhere and everything. And that is a totally meaningful and profound statement
Oh, so now you agree with my statement?
I thought you first said there was a very meaningful DISTINCTION between purple and yellow, and that you disagreed with me saying that it is the same thing, at a different rate.
I'm confused now.
-------------------- As below, so above
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sudly
Quasar Praiser
Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 11,242
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If you like listening to Alan Watts;
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Apples in Mono
Not a puppet
Registered: 09/21/17
Posts: 3,240
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Quote:
Psychaesthetics said:
Quote:
Apples in Mono said: You mean finding us? I don't hsve to look. I already know that we are everywhere and everything. And that is a totally meaningful and profound statement
Oh, so now you agree with my statement?
I thought you first said there was a very meaningful DISTINCTION between purple and yellow, and that you disagreed with me saying that it is the same thing, at a different rate.
I'm confused now.
I was being facetious. Sorry
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Psychaesthetics
Learner
Registered: 10/16/13
Posts: 100
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 5 years, 11 months
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Re: Solipsism and reality [Re: sudly]
#25016922 - 02/23/18 07:00 PM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: If you like listening to Alan Watts;
So simplistic, yet so profound.
Reassuring thoughts through a soothing voice.
-------------------- As below, so above
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Psychaesthetics
Learner
Registered: 10/16/13
Posts: 100
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 5 years, 11 months
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Quote:
Apples in Mono said:
Quote:
Psychaesthetics said:
Quote:
Apples in Mono said: You mean finding us? I don't hsve to look. I already know that we are everywhere and everything. And that is a totally meaningful and profound statement
Oh, so now you agree with my statement?
I thought you first said there was a very meaningful DISTINCTION between purple and yellow, and that you disagreed with me saying that it is the same thing, at a different rate.
I'm confused now.
I was being facetious. Sorry
Hard to tell through text.
I hope you know purple and yellow are the exact same, but behaving differently.
I hope you also see therefore, that all you consider as yourself, and all that you consider as other than you, is the same, behaving differently.
-------------------- As below, so above
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sudly
Quasar Praiser
Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 11,242
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There is wet bread on my lawn.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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