Home | Community | Message Board


Out-Grow.com - Mushroom Growing Kits & Supplies
Please support our sponsors.

Feedback and Administration >> Shroomery News Service

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Original Seeds Store Buy Cannabis Seeds, Buy CBD   Amazon Scales

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineFennarioM
Registered: 03/29/15
Posts: 13,843
Last seen: 16 minutes, 43 seconds
Scientists studying psychoactive drugs accidentally proved the self is an illusion * 3
    #24979682 - 02/09/18 11:21 PM (7 months, 4 days ago)

Scientists studying psychoactive drugs accidentally proved the self is an illusion

By: Ephrat Livni

source


Philosophers and mystics have long contemplated the disconcerting notionthat the fixed self is an illusion.Neuroscientists now think they can prove it or, at least, help us glimpse this truth with some help from psilocybin, the psychoactive property in magic mushrooms.

Researchers around the world are exploring the drug’s transformative power to help people quit smoking;lower violent crime; treat depression,anxiety. and post-traumatic stress disorder; and trigger lasting spiritual epiphanies in psychologically healthy people, especially when coupled with meditation or contemplative training.

There are some limitations to psilocybin studies—they tend to be small, and rely on volunteers willing to take drugs and, thus, open to an alternate experience. But the research could have major implications in an age characterized by widespread anxiety. Psilocybin seems to offer some people a route to an alternate view of reality, in which they shed the limitations of their individual consciousness and embrace a sense of interconnectedness and universality. These trips aren’t temporary, but have transformative psychological effects. Even if we don’t all end up on mushrooms, the studies offer insights on how we might minimize suffering and interpersonal strife and gain a sense of peace.

Consider a study of 75 subjects, published in the Journal of Psychopharmacology last October. The study concluded that psilocybin leads to mystical experiences that can have long-term psychological benefits in conjunction with meditation training. The greater the drug dosage, the more potent the positive psychological effect was six months later. “Participants showed significant positive changes on longitudinal measures of interpersonal closeness, gratitude, life meaning/purpose, forgiveness, death transcendence, daily spiritual experiences, religious faith and coping,” the study concluded.

Meanwhile, in July, psychologist Richard Williams of John Hopkins University revealed an experiment involving clergy and psilocybin. Williams is enlisting priests, rabbis, and Zen Buddhist monks to take drugs, meditate, and “collect inner experiences.” (No Muslim or Hindu clerics agreed to participate.) The study will last a year, so no results are out yet. But Williams told The Guardian in July 2017 that so far, the clerics report feeling simultaneously more in touch with their own faith and greater appreciation for alternate paths. “In these transcendental states of consciousness, people … get to levels of consciousness that seem universal. So a good rabbi can encounter the Buddha within him,” Williams said.

To understand how mushrooms can change our worldviews, we must first explore how brains shape our sense of self.

The shared dream

Our awareness of existence—the ability to distinguish between the self and others—is created by the brain, neuroscientist Anil Seth explains in his TED talk, “Your brain hallucinates consciousness.” He says, “Right now, billions of neurons in your brain are working together to generate a conscious experience—and not just any conscious experience, your experience of the world around you and of yourself within it.”

Yet when you are unconscious, you continue to exist without perceiving your own presence. You cease to participate in reality but continue to live. When roused back into consciousness, you lack a narrative to explain the time away. The narrative of the story that seems to be your life is just a function of your brain’s mechanisms, not who you really are.

Still, the hallucination of consciousness is one we’re all having in tandem. When we agree about our hallucinations, we call it “reality,” according to Seth. In this agreed-upon reality, we are each separate individuals, whose stories begin with our births and end with our deaths.

But there are other ways to experience reality, which you may have already glimpsed, even if only fleetingly. Sometimes our consciousness shifts. The boundaries of the self seem to become less rigid and we commune with another person or thing, as can happen during drug-induced epiphanies, sure—but can also happen when people fall in love, meditate, go out in nature, or experience a great meeting of minds.

In The Book (pdf), philosopher Alan Watts writes that we aren’t individuals existing in lonely bodies. We’re a flowing segment in the continuous line of life. He and others—mystics, monks, poets(pdf), and philosophers from numerous traditions—argue that people are sad and hostile because we live with a false sense of separation from one another and the rest of the world. “This feeling of being lonely and very temporary visitors in the universe is in flat contradiction to everything known about man (and all other living organisms) in the sciences,”Watts wrote in The Book. “We do not ‘come into’ this world; we come out of it, as leaves from a tree.”

Seeing the interconnectedness and timelessness of existence provides a grand scale. It helps put your problems in perspective. That’s why scientists are trying to find ways to trigger the epiphany Watts talks about. Drugs can help, especially since we think we now know how the brain generates the illusion of self.

Turning off default mode

Normal consciousness relies, at least in part, on the brain’s Default Mode Network (DMN), according to neuroscientist Robin Carhart-Harris, head of psychedelic research in the brain sciences division of the Imperial College of London medical school. The DMN is a network of interacting brain regions that acts as a cognitive transit hub, integrating and assimilating information. As the name implies, it’s the usual system of organization for your mind. Carhart-Harris says the DMN “gives coherence to cognition” by connecting different regions of the brain, and is considered the “orchestrator of the self.”

Carhart-Harris and his colleagues found what seems to be an important function of the DMN inadvertently. While studying brain networks, they got curious about what changes might occur when people are under the effects of hallucinogens. In studies analyzing theeffects of psilocybin on brain wave oscillation and blood flow, they found that when the DMN was inactive, an alternate network of consciousnessseemed to arise.

When some study subjects tested psilocybin, they reported a strong sense of interconnectedness, as well as spiritual, magical, and supernatural feelings.

In the alternate mode, brains produced a different world that offered other sensations and realizations than in everyday life. In this mode, the self wasn’t the protagonist of the narrative. Meanwhile, scans of blood flow and brain wave oscillations showed new, unusual—but orderly and synchronous—connections forming between cortical regions, as if the brain was reorganizing its network. This led Carhart-Harris to posit that the DMN generates the feeling we each have that we’re individuals, a feeling that manifests very strongly as reality. And that means we can temporarily switch off, or mute, this part of the brain.

Ego switch

According to psychoanalytic theory, the feeling of having a personal identity is known as the ego. It’s the boundary-maker and gatekeeper, drawing lines and dividing me from you. But as psychoanalyst Sigmund Freud notes in his 1930 essay “Civilization and Its Discontents” (pdf), the ego is mutable. Our sense of identity can shift—from infancy to adulthood, within relationships, and with certain practices, like meditation.

Living in a society means living within certain limits, for our own safety and that of others. We need the ego to draw lines, protecting us from people who may take advantage of too much kindness or too open a spirit. But muting the ego can be a good thing. Switching off the default mode changes the connections between cortical regions and activates new modes, new sensations and thoughts, allowing us to “lose the inhibiting influence on one’s own narrative, which leads to insights that are kept from consciousness,” Carhart-Harris says.

Experiencing this state of uninhibited consciousness can lead to lasting changes, even after the psilocybin wears off. For someone who is severely depressed, changing brain activity with psilocybin may be able to jolt them out of a cognitive rut, wherein their default mode repeats negative thoughts and feelings in a damaging loop, Carhart-Harris explains. And in someone who is psychologically healthy, the additional perspective provided by a peek at the alternate consciousness can also improve overall well-being.

As Shelby Hartman wrote in Quartz last January, the data (pdf) from three trials of psilocybin in 36 healthy volunteersshowed that brief drug-induced mystical experiences changed people over time, leading them to report better moods, heightened altruism and forgiveness, more closeness with others, and a sense of connection six months later. Two-thirds of study subjects rated the experience during a psilocybin session so meaningful that it fell within their top five life events, up there with the birth of a first child, for example. The researchers believe the memory of the drug experience—the trip, if you will—continues to influence people long after the drug itself has technically worn off.

Change you can believe in

Psychologists distinguish radical transformative experiences as “quantum changes,” as opposed to incremental behavioral-based shifts. But the two are not mutually exclusive. An epiphany prompted by psilocybin can give rise to a new enthusiasm, curiosity, or sense of wonder that can trigger behavioral changes or new interests, spurring travel, dance, contemplation, meditation, an interest in nature, people, or other cultures. Likewise, no momentary experience is so magical and profound as to make every moment thereafter easy to manage, which is why practitioners of meditation may experience illumination when sitting, but still struggle in day-to-day life.

Dissolving the ego doesn’t happen once and for all. The default mode network will resume its duties, and it can be hard to stay in touch with alternative states of consciousness. The epiphanies some people experience on drugs, then, offer a touchstone to which we can return when the brain’s default mode is on. That’s why neuroscientists are so interested in finding out how mystical experiences can be combined with meditation practices and other forms of spiritual guidance, the better to bring about lasting change.

In the Zen Buddhist tradition, practitioners meditate to cultivate a mind that is conscious of simultaneous modes, able to navigate the two planes of connected consciousness while recognizing the self’s presence. The Tibetan Zen Buddhist monk Chogyam Trongpa called this simultaneous perception “basic sanity.”

For Trongpa, expanded perceptions of alternative forms of consciousness were not a particular prize, but a tool to be applied to everyday life. An epiphany may be initially thrilling, but that’s not the point. Trongpa advocated existential cool. You don’t have to shout from the rooftops about how we’re all one interconnected organism, or feel lonely when the ego howls its song of alienation.

Extraordinary experiences become normal, and personal dramas become boring, once you perceive the brain’s prankster at work—and then you can really relax. As Trongpa writes in his1984 text, Shambhala: The Sacred Path of the Warrior, “Life is a humorous situation but it is not mocking us.


--------------------
All Is Mind



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleMicromicology
Stranger

Registered: 10/14/17
Posts: 123
Re: Scientists studying psychoactive drugs accidentally proved the self is an illusion [Re: Fennario] * 2
    #24979931 - 02/10/18 02:03 AM (7 months, 4 days ago)

So I didn't read anything that got anywhere close to proving the self is an illusion,  though I do not dissagree with the thought.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinerider420
Ghost in the machine
Male

Registered: 02/11/16
Posts: 460
Last seen: 2 days, 1 hour
Re: Scientists studying psychoactive drugs accidentally proved the self is an illusion [Re: Fennario]
    #24980340 - 02/10/18 09:44 AM (7 months, 4 days ago)

Quote:


Yet when you are unconscious, you continue to exist without perceiving your own presence. You cease to participate in reality but continue to live. When roused back into consciousness, you lack a narrative to explain the time away. The narrative of the story that seems to be your life is just a function of your brain’s mechanisms, not who you really are.







No when you are unconscious you cease to exist until the system reboots just like a computer. Between the time you dream and awake you simply cease to exist MRI studies have proved this as a fact.

Sadly its just religious people desperately trying to prove their ideology that soles are real because they can't reconcile their instinctive need to survive with the intellectual scientific inevitability of ceasing to exist after death.

BTW self awareness is a higher function of a brain and nervous system working together while shrooms might make you feel that awareness is universal but in reality its just the effects of the drugs no matter how surreal it feels. :wink:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineFractalMind
"PUFF" the magic dragon
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/13/14
Posts: 355
Loc: USA Flag
Last seen: 5 days, 14 hours
Re: Scientists studying psychoactive drugs accidentally proved the self is an illusion [Re: rider420] * 2
    #24980459 - 02/10/18 10:50 AM (7 months, 4 days ago)

Thats like saying a computer ceases to exist in the physical realm when you turn it off... which is bullshit. We all have a sense of self for a reason. Nobody will ever achieve true ego loss, only temporary glimpses, until we die.

Now if every time we tripped we physically dematerialized and literally flew away to the 4th dimension, this would be an accurate statement.

As above, so below. We must understand we are a part of a cosmic consciousness, while also maintaining our own self-care and individuality.

Also "free love" only leads to miserable orphans, and high std rates


Edited by FractalMind (02/10/18 11:01 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinedurian_2008
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 5,805
Last seen: 13 days, 12 hours
Re: Scientists studying psychoactive drugs accidentally proved the self is an illusion [Re: FractalMind]
    #24980530 - 02/10/18 11:29 AM (7 months, 4 days ago)

The scientists still chose to keep their legal names, were paid for their work, and fed their (illusory) selves.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineMorel Guy
Stranger

Registered: 01/23/13
Posts: 9,070
Last seen: 44 minutes, 24 seconds
Re: Scientists studying psychoactive drugs accidentally proved the self is an illusion [Re: durian_2008]
    #24980558 - 02/10/18 11:54 AM (7 months, 4 days ago)

I do not cease to exist when I sleep.  My existance changes.  I am more aware of threats, usually.

The self is not an illusion anymore than any other operating system.  It's all about physiology.

The self is a PRODUCT.


--------------------
All comments by Morel Guy are fictional opinions and nothing legally binding therein.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinedurian_2008
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 5,805
Last seen: 13 days, 12 hours
Re: Scientists studying psychoactive drugs accidentally proved the self is an illusion [Re: Morel Guy]
    #24980568 - 02/10/18 11:59 AM (7 months, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Morel Guy said:
I do not cease to exist when I sleep.




Because, you wouldn't sleep, very well, with indigestion, or a plastic bag over your head.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinesearching
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/08/11
Posts: 3,832
Last seen: 22 hours, 45 minutes
Re: Scientists studying psychoactive drugs accidentally proved the self is an illusion [Re: rider420] * 1
    #24980701 - 02/10/18 12:42 PM (7 months, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Trongpa advocated existential cool. You don’t have to shout from the rooftops about how we’re all one interconnected organism, or feel lonely when the ego howls its song of alienation.




:manofapproval:

Quote:

FractalMind said:

As above, so below. We must understand we are a part of a cosmic consciousness, while also maintaining our own self-care and individuality.






What you said here is pretty similar to the quote above. I think you're right.



Quote:

rider420 said:
Quote:


Yet when you are unconscious, you continue to exist without perceiving your own presence. You cease to participate in reality but continue to live. When roused back into consciousness, you lack a narrative to explain the time away. The narrative of the story that seems to be your life is just a function of your brain’s mechanisms, not who you really are.







No when you are unconscious you cease to exist until the system reboots just like a computer. Between the time you dream and awake you simply cease to exist MRI studies have proved this as a fact.

Sadly its just religious people desperately trying to prove their ideology that soles are real because they can't reconcile their instinctive need to survive with the intellectual scientific inevitability of ceasing to exist after death.

BTW self awareness is a higher function of a brain and nervous system working together while shrooms might make you feel that awareness is universal but in reality its just the effects of the drugs no matter how surreal it feels. :wink:




I get what you're saying but I completely disagree. You make a good argument, especially about the instinctive need to survive. There is real scientific evidence that our consciousness is not just a process happening inside our heads and that it actually has an affect on the physical world around us.

The double slit experiment.


If consciousness is nothing but some neurons firing the  why does an electron behave as a particle when you're observing it and a wave when you're not observing it? This strengthens the theory that our consciousness is somehow linked to the entire universe around us. We don't understand it fully yet but the idea that we're just a sack of bones and flesh does not agree or co-exist with this evidence. That sack of bones hypothesis goes in the scrap yard. It's time for us to move on and build a new model of understanding.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleStonehenge
Alt Center
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
Re: Scientists studying psychoactive drugs accidentally proved the self is an illusion [Re: searching]
    #24980856 - 02/10/18 01:03 PM (7 months, 3 days ago)

Through meditation you can feel your essence without thought. This same essence is present when you sleep. Thought and rational processes are not you, its the self which has thoughts and engages in reason which is you. Thoughts as well as dreams are just a product of the mind. Neither is the mind you, its just a useful tool. Find yourself by turning off the mind and just sensing self. Psychedelics can help do that too.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleDualWieldRake
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/17/16
Posts: 1,080
Loc: Zone 8b
Re: Scientists studying psychoactive drugs accidentally proved the self is an illusion [Re: Stonehenge]
    #24981631 - 02/10/18 01:55 PM (7 months, 3 days ago)

Nice clickbait :thumbup:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineMorel Guy
Stranger

Registered: 01/23/13
Posts: 9,070
Last seen: 44 minutes, 24 seconds
Re: Scientists studying psychoactive drugs accidentally proved the self is an illusion [Re: DualWieldRake]
    #24983687 - 02/10/18 07:13 PM (7 months, 3 days ago)

I also don't find that taking drugs that alters perception of reality and self, as proof that there is no self.

Self is a somewhat subjective thing, but not entirely.  It's largely based on reactions.

Transcending self in the sober sense without chemical aid, seems to be very different than with chems.  There is no outwardly exploration with the sober mechanism, versus the chemically allied.


--------------------
All comments by Morel Guy are fictional opinions and nothing legally binding therein.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinedurian_2008
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 5,805
Last seen: 13 days, 12 hours
Re: Scientists studying psychoactive drugs accidentally proved the self is an illusion [Re: Morel Guy]
    #24985630 - 02/11/18 02:20 PM (7 months, 2 days ago)

In that fine line, between genius and insanity, the poets, inventors, and statesmen found a muse, did not think of themselves as inanimate objects.

Type B's have no sense of self, anyway. Drug use is besides the point.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCracked out
Roamer

Registered: 03/14/17
Posts: 19
Last seen: 6 months, 3 days
Re: Scientists studying psychoactive drugs accidentally proved the self is an illusion [Re: durian_2008]
    #24988400 - 02/12/18 11:39 AM (7 months, 2 days ago)

I didn't realize we had so many psychologists on shroomery. Know it all's everywhere around here.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinedurian_2008
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 5,805
Last seen: 13 days, 12 hours
Re: Scientists studying psychoactive drugs accidentally proved the self is an illusion [Re: Cracked out] * 1
    #24988417 - 02/12/18 11:49 AM (7 months, 2 days ago)

If you don't know everything, you weren't doing it right. :shrug:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCracked out
Roamer

Registered: 03/14/17
Posts: 19
Last seen: 6 months, 3 days
Re: Scientists studying psychoactive drugs accidentally proved the self is an illusion [Re: durian_2008]
    #24988843 - 02/12/18 03:56 PM (7 months, 1 day ago)

Wow, you must have always done it right then hotshot.
I'll have to watch my tongue, now that I am in such superior intellectual company.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinedurian_2008
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 5,805
Last seen: 13 days, 12 hours
Re: Scientists studying psychoactive drugs accidentally proved the self is an illusion [Re: Cracked out]
    #24991056 - 02/13/18 12:50 PM (7 months, 23 hours ago)

I assumed that some people do have a sense of self.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineMorel Guy
Stranger

Registered: 01/23/13
Posts: 9,070
Last seen: 44 minutes, 24 seconds
Re: Scientists studying psychoactive drugs accidentally proved the self is an illusion [Re: durian_2008]
    #24996197 - 02/15/18 12:45 PM (6 months, 29 days ago)

I don't believe it's people don't have a sense of self.  Torture would prove they do.

However, I do believe that all people can at times transcend the self.  Some are likely just finding that easier a majority of the time.

But it's important to have a sense of self.  It's what protects you and keeps you alive.  It's difficult to learn how to be at peace with the truth that the self is easily boiled away.

We are very vulnerable and most of you have incredibly ignorant sense of self.  Most people do on the internet and so many in the real world.

Just because you can create an illusion of how things went, doesn't make your statement of how you perceived it true or at all concrete.


--------------------
All comments by Morel Guy are fictional opinions and nothing legally binding therein.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinedurian_2008
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 5,805
Last seen: 13 days, 12 hours
Re: Scientists studying psychoactive drugs accidentally proved the self is an illusion [Re: Morel Guy]
    #24996251 - 02/15/18 01:14 PM (6 months, 29 days ago)

As I consider the subject more, and am reading different opinions, I get the idea that people are confusing a physical with a mental self.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineMorel Guy
Stranger

Registered: 01/23/13
Posts: 9,070
Last seen: 44 minutes, 24 seconds
Re: Scientists studying psychoactive drugs accidentally proved the self is an illusion [Re: durian_2008]
    #24996987 - 02/15/18 07:20 PM (6 months, 29 days ago)

There is no confusion.

There is always a self.  A observer at the least.  Suppose it has to do with connection, harmony.  Not being in conflict.

But there is always a self, in one state or another.  Deeply asleep or fully awake.  To say there isn't is misguided.


--------------------
All comments by Morel Guy are fictional opinions and nothing legally binding therein.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinedurian_2008
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 5,805
Last seen: 13 days, 12 hours
Re: Scientists studying psychoactive drugs accidentally proved the self is an illusion [Re: Morel Guy]
    #24998170 - 02/16/18 09:04 AM (6 months, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Morel Guy said:
There is always a self.  A observer at the least. 




All values-judgments aside, I still think there are people, who can't pass a Turing test.

In a dissociative state, they appear as inanimate objects, or lower orders of life.

Is the ego a matter of physical or psychological perspective. Some people lack the ability of self reflection, or what you call the observer.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Original Seeds Store Buy Cannabis Seeds, Buy CBD   Amazon Scales

Feedback and Administration >> Shroomery News Service

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Scientists Study Mushrooms For Potential Cancer Treatments motamanM 974 0 11/11/03 09:31 AM
by motaman
* Psychiatric study for cancer patients AnnoA 1,120 1 03/11/04 05:47 AM
by Dreamer987
* Mother wants others to heed lesson of her son's drug death
( 1 2 all )
motamanM 5,308 21 09/25/03 08:59 AM
by sirreal
* Goodbye ecstasy, hello 5-Meo-DMT motamanM 6,016 11 03/01/04 01:54 PM
by debianlinux
* Experts debate benefits, risks of hallucinogenic drugs motamanM 1,993 1 12/01/03 08:49 PM
by DailyPot
* Study Shows Vaporizer Can Drastically Reduce Toxins in Marij Hermes_br 3,336 10 05/18/03 11:15 PM
by Hermes_br
* Post deleted by Administrator Alien 2,870 9 09/11/03 04:27 PM
by Seuss
* Are psychedelic drugs good for you? motamanM 3,954 6 12/03/03 06:44 AM
by sirreal

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: motaman, karode13, Alan Rockefeller, naum, Mostly_Harmless
2,218 topic views. 0 members, 13 guests and 2 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
World Seed Supply
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2018 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.044 seconds spending 0.005 seconds on 18 queries.