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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: This is what antifascism looks like. [Re: Tulipslave] * 2
    #25368150 - 08/05/18 12:33 PM (5 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Tulipslave said:
I'm personally opposed to bigotry, sure.  But bigotry doesn't hurt anyone directly; while it can shape the view of the world of children still forming, adults, in reality, can only CHOOSE to be harmed by it.



Spoken like someone who has never had to deal with serious bigotry. Yes, the many people killed by racial supremacists over the years CHOSE to be harmed by bigotry.

The only people who can ignore the tendency for bigotry to find expression via physical violence (and political violence) are those who don't face serious bigotry in their daily lives.


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InvisibleTulipslave
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Re: This is what antifascism looks like. [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 2
    #25368167 - 08/05/18 12:44 PM (5 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Tulipslave said:
I'm personally opposed to bigotry, sure.  But bigotry doesn't hurt anyone directly; while it can shape the view of the world of children still forming, adults, in reality, can only CHOOSE to be harmed by it.



Spoken like someone who has never had to deal with serious bigotry. Yes, the many people killed by racial supremacists over the years CHOSE to be harmed by bigotry.

The only people who can ignore the tendency for bigotry to find expression via physical violence (and political violence) are those who don't face serious bigotry in their daily lives.






No, they were HARMED by violence.  This is akin to the concept of guns don't kill people, people kill people.  Concepts don't hurt or kill people.  Bigotry is a concept, a form of personal philosophy. 

By your line of thinking, it would be acceptable to start attacking and killing antifa members, as they MAY physically harm others at some point in the future.

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Offlineqman
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Re: This is what antifascism looks like. [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #25368169 - 08/05/18 12:46 PM (5 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Tulipslave said:
I'm personally opposed to bigotry, sure.  But bigotry doesn't hurt anyone directly; while it can shape the view of the world of children still forming, adults, in reality, can only CHOOSE to be harmed by it.



Spoken like someone who has never had to deal with serious bigotry. Yes, the many people killed by racial supremacists over the years CHOSE to be harmed by bigotry.

The only people who can ignore the tendency for bigotry to find expression via physical violence (and political violence) are those who don't face serious bigotry in their daily lives.




You're confusing violence with bigotry. You have to make a direct correlation to make your warped view of the world to make sense.

The problem with your reasoning is that there isn't any direct correlation.

If every bigot was violent, there would be non-stop violence. Obviously, that isn't happening.

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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: This is what antifascism looks like. [Re: qman] * 1
    #25368263 - 08/05/18 01:43 PM (5 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

No, they were HARMED by violence.  This is akin to the concept of guns don't kill people, people kill people.  Concepts don't hurt or kill people.  Bigotry is a concept, a form of personal philosophy.


 
Sure, but the presence of guns is still a requirement for someone to be shot; just as the presence of fascist ideology is a requirement for fascist violence.

Guns remain an accepted part of society because they provide a valid and useful function to society. What valid and useful function does fascist ideology provide to society, making it worth the inherent risk of violence?



Quote:

By your line of thinking, it would be acceptable to start attacking and killing antifa members, as they MAY physically harm others at some point in the future.



This would only be true if you are a fascist. Antifascist organizing is a threat to fascists, and similar justification of violence used by antifascists is also used by fascists. The difference is that, without fascists you would have no more antifascist violence - but without antifascists you would see fascist violence continue. One of these positions is inherently violent, the other only responsively violent - a significant difference.

Unless, I guess, you believe the MSM/far-right propaganda that antifascists represent a mob of indiscriminate violence which threatens average citizens. I don't really care enough to change you opinion, if this is it. The only medicine is learning the history of antifascism and/or directly participating in antifascist action.



Quote:

You're confusing violence with bigotry. You have to make a direct correlation to make your warped view of the world to make sense. 

The problem with your reasoning is that there isn't any direct correlation.

If every bigot was violent, there would be non-stop violence. Obviously, that isn't happening.



I'm not claiming every bigot or fascist is violent. As you say, many (most?) may not ever act on their beliefs in our present social/political environment. Still, sufficient studies confirm a causal connection between hateful ideology and speech to physical violence - take every single study on modern day genocides, for example.

The connection exists. See my first response in this post for why fascist ideology does not provide any redeeming value to society that compensates for the inherent risk of violence.


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InvisibleTulipslave
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Re: This is what antifascism looks like. [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 2
    #25369094 - 08/05/18 09:48 PM (5 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

No, they were HARMED by violence.  This is akin to the concept of guns don't kill people, people kill people.  Concepts don't hurt or kill people.  Bigotry is a concept, a form of personal philosophy.


 
Sure, but the presence of guns is still a requirement for someone to be shot; just as the presence of fascist ideology is a requirement for fascist violence.





Again, you're wrong.  One can be shot with an arrow.  One can be shot with a rock by a sling.  One can be shot by a roman candle or bottle rocket.  Guns are not a prerequisite for someone to be shot.  Your viewpoint is too narrow.

Quote:

Guns remain an accepted part of society because they provide a valid and useful function to society. What valid and useful function does fascist ideology provide to society, making it worth the inherent risk of violence?





Ahhhh, I see, so it all falls upon YOU to decide what is valid and useful within society.  Any other thoughts/opinions on this matter are clearly wrong.  So all hail emperor Shiva, decision-maker for everyone of the world.

DELUSIONS, plain and simple.  It's not your call, buddy, sorry.  It's not "your way or the highway", which is part of living in a society.  I almost suggested it earlier, but I must suggest it now.  You and all your crony-friends should really consider leaving the United States and buying an island somewhere.  Then you can create your own government and follow any set of rules you like.  Clearly, your ilk don't want to follow the rules set in place by the state and federal governments. 



Quote:

Quote:

By your line of thinking, it would be acceptable to start attacking and killing antifa members, as they MAY physically harm others at some point in the future.



This would only be true if you are a fascist.





Wow, the group of fascists who hate other fascists calling people that disagree with them fascists.  This seems par for the course for your group.


edit:  Do you not even see what you've done here?  I've explained to you that I disagree with the people you disagree with.  Yet, because I don't side with you, you call me a fascist.  YOU MAKE ME an enemy of YOU, simply because I don't agree with you and your tactics.  Where will this nonsense end?
/edit

Quote:

The only medicine is learning the history of antifascism and/or directly participating in antifascist action.





No, the only "medicine" is for antifa to realize that they don't get their way just because they want it.  YOU are the problem equally or moreso than the group(s) you "protest" against.

Edited by Tulipslave (08/05/18 09:53 PM)

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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: This is what antifascism looks like. [Re: Tulipslave] * 1
    #25369521 - 08/06/18 06:44 AM (5 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Again, you're wrong.  One can be shot with an arrow.  One can be shot with a rock by a sling.  One can be shot by a roman candle or bottle rocket.  Guns are not a prerequisite for someone to be shot.  Your viewpoint is too narrow.



Way to completely miss the point with that analogy.


Quote:

Ahhhh, I see, so it all falls upon YOU to decide what is valid and useful within society.  Any other thoughts/opinions on this matter are clearly wrong.  So all hail emperor Shiva, decision-maker for everyone of the world.

DELUSIONS, plain and simple.  It's not your call, buddy, sorry.  It's not "your way or the highway", which is part of living in a society.  I almost suggested it earlier, but I must suggest it now.  You and all your crony-friends should really consider leaving the United States and buying an island somewhere.  Then you can create your own government and follow any set of rules you like.  Clearly, your ilk don't want to follow the rules set in place by the state and federal governments.  



Well, I am an individualist anarchist, so yes I do place more value on my personal morality then the morality of society at large - and yes, I have no desire to follow the rules of the state merely because they exist as rules.

But once again you appear to miss the point here. I never once stated that fascism is wrong because I think it's wrong - I gave my reasons for why violence is inherent to fascism, and why such an ideology has no place in human society.

The society we live in, for example, currently considers pedophilia to be something that provides no redeeming value that compensates for the inherent violence of pedophilia. Look at the history of how groups such as NAMBLA have been treated by the public, when they try to publicly organize and recruit. Does anyone here want to take pedophiles as their next free speech champions, once they're done with fascists? The slippery-slope is a fallacy - as a society, we are capable of not tolerating extreme views that provide no redeeming value to society, without plunging into totalitarian censorship of everything.

In fact, I clearly asked for you to explain why you believe that fascist ideology has a redeeming value to society, that compensates for the inherent risk of violence. Instead you chose the "leave if you don't like it" argument. Want to try that one again, with an actual answer this time? You are quite defensive over protecting fascists - so again, I'll ask why?

Why are you so up in arms about my free speech used to speak against fascism that you are telling me to leave the country, but you will protect fascist free speech right up until the point that they begin a program of extermination? Why the double-standard?



Quote:

Wow, the group of fascists who hate other fascists calling people that disagree with them fascists.  This seems par for the course for your group.


edit:  Do you not even see what you've done here?  I've explained to you that I disagree with the people you disagree with.  Yet, because I don't side with you, you call me a fascist.  YOU MAKE ME an enemy of YOU, simply because I don't agree with you and your tactics.  Where will this nonsense end?
/edit



I wasn't calling you a fascist, I was stating that if you (impersonal 'you') are a fascist, then yes antifascists pose a threat to you, and the same justification of violence used by antifascists when confronting fascists can be used by fascists confronting antifascists. In a fascist society, antifascism would have no redeeming value.



Quote:

No, the only "medicine" is for antifa to realize that they don't get their way just because they want it.  YOU are the problem equally or moreso than the group(s) you "protest" against.



Hey why don't you criticize the reasoning for why I am opposed to any fascist presence in my community, rather than frame it as a simple difference in opinions. I disagree with liberals and conservatives too, but I'm not out there shutting them down. Antifascism is the result of more than just a difference of opinions.

I would counter that the group currently responsible for multiple deaths, formation of homicidal terrorist groups, and holding an ideology predicated on violence, to be undeniable worse than the. group who recognizes that violence and engages in physical assault (at worst) to stop it. The "both sides are equally bad" requires you to forgo any sort of nuance in how you relate to the world. Try to see those shades of grey between the black and white.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: This is what antifascism looks like. [Re: Tulipslave] * 2
    #25369541 - 08/06/18 07:15 AM (5 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Tulipslave said:
When the white nationalists actually gain footing in politics and start directing policies that further their agenda, then things become more serious.  Until they start an unofficially recognized police or security force and assault/murder/imprison people, there is no issue.



Can you more clearly explain what this would look like because...

Law enforcement, the military, and politics in the United States have been infiltrated by white supremacists, who use it to recruit others and gain paramilitary training.

Portland Republicans to use militia for security as far-right rallies continue

The far-right was responsible for the majority of America’s extremist killings in 2017

US Family Detention Centers Not ‘Like Summer Camp’



White nationalists gain footing in politics? Check.

Start directing policies that further their agenda? Check.

Unofficially recognized security force? Check.

Assault/murder/imprison people? Check.


Looks like, even according to your standards, we have an issue.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: This is what antifascism looks like. [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #25369712 - 08/06/18 09:05 AM (5 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
By the time an organized program of extermination begins, it's probably too late to stop things before a whole bunch of people are killed. I'd rather stop things before that point.

Would you have told the Jews resisting the gradual oppression of the Nazis to "Wait until they're actually putting people on trains and exterminating people left and right, otherwise you're just as bad as them," too?





You dodged this question before, but on further thought I would really appreciate your answer. Let's use the historical example of Nazi Germany to try and pinpoint exactly when you consider militant antifascism to be an acceptable response. Help me understand, using the most researched and recorded instance of the gradual progression of fascist violence (in which we also have the full benefit of hindsight) as your rule of measure.

At what point in time, between 1920 and 1945, did violence against nazi oppression become acceptable and why? (This question is open for all our resident fascist sympathizers)


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InvisibleTulipslave
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Re: This is what antifascism looks like. [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #25369911 - 08/06/18 10:44 AM (5 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
By the time an organized program of extermination begins, it's probably too late to stop things before a whole bunch of people are killed. I'd rather stop things before that point.

Would you have told the Jews resisting the gradual oppression of the Nazis to "Wait until they're actually putting people on trains and exterminating people left and right, otherwise you're just as bad as them," too?





You dodged this question before, but on further thought I would really appreciate your answer. Let's use the historical example of Nazi Germany to try and pinpoint exactly when you consider militant antifascism to be an acceptable response. Help me understand, using the most researched and recorded instance of the gradual progression of fascist violence (in which we also have the full benefit of hindsight) as your rule of measure.

At what point in time, between 1920 and 1945, did violence against nazi oppression become acceptable and why? (This question is open for all our resident fascist sympathizers)





I didn't dodge it.  I refused to answer it.  I'm not going to play your games of hypotheticals here.


We have fundamental differences of view on the matter.  Neither is going to change.  /end

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: This is what antifascism looks like. [Re: Tulipslave] * 3
    #25370066 - 08/06/18 12:13 PM (5 years, 7 months ago)

Hypotheticals? Its literally an historical example. Just one that doesnt mesh with your cobbled together ethos of pragmatic nonviolence, so we get "agree to disagree."


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InvisibleTulipslave
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Re: This is what antifascism looks like. [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #25370120 - 08/06/18 12:38 PM (5 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Hypotheticals? Its literally an historical example. Just one that doesnt mesh with your cobbled together ethos of pragmatic nonviolence, so we get "agree to disagree."






Wrong.  Answering the question, which has no accurate answer, opens the doorway to there being a time where his stance on the social-acceptability of violence against others would become acceptable.  It's all fantasy-land, aka hypothetical.

Edited by Tulipslave (08/06/18 12:47 PM)

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Offlineqman
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Re: This is what antifascism looks like. [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #25370141 - 08/06/18 12:47 PM (5 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

You're confusing violence with bigotry. You have to make a direct correlation to make your warped view of the world to make sense. 

The problem with your reasoning is that there isn't any direct correlation.

If every bigot was violent, there would be non-stop violence. Obviously, that isn't happening.



I'm not claiming every bigot or fascist is violent. As you say, many (most?) may not ever act on their beliefs in our present social/political environment. Still, sufficient studies confirm a causal connection between hateful ideology and speech to physical violence - take every single study on modern day genocides, for example.

The connection exists. See my first response in this post for why fascist ideology does not provide any redeeming value to society that compensates for the inherent risk of violence.




There's many factors that have connections to violent behavior, that really doesn't mean all of those POTENTIAL connections need to be addressed in any meaningful manner.

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Offlineqman
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Re: This is what antifascism looks like. [Re: Tulipslave]
    #25370149 - 08/06/18 12:50 PM (5 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Tulipslave said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

No, they were HARMED by violence.  This is akin to the concept of guns don't kill people, people kill people.  Concepts don't hurt or kill people.  Bigotry is a concept, a form of personal philosophy.


 
Sure, but the presence of guns is still a requirement for someone to be shot; just as the presence of fascist ideology is a requirement for fascist violence.





Again, you're wrong.  One can be shot with an arrow.  One can be shot with a rock by a sling.  One can be shot by a roman candle or bottle rocket.  Guns are not a prerequisite for someone to be shot.  Your viewpoint is too narrow.

Quote:

Guns remain an accepted part of society because they provide a valid and useful function to society. What valid and useful function does fascist ideology provide to society, making it worth the inherent risk of violence?





Ahhhh, I see, so it all falls upon YOU to decide what is valid and useful within society.  Any other thoughts/opinions on this matter are clearly wrong.  So all hail emperor Shiva, decision-maker for everyone of the world.

DELUSIONS, plain and simple.  It's not your call, buddy, sorry.  It's not "your way or the highway", which is part of living in a society.  I almost suggested it earlier, but I must suggest it now.  You and all your crony-friends should really consider leaving the United States and buying an island somewhere.  Then you can create your own government and follow any set of rules you like.  Clearly, your ilk don't want to follow the rules set in place by the state and federal governments. 



Quote:

Quote:

By your line of thinking, it would be acceptable to start attacking and killing antifa members, as they MAY physically harm others at some point in the future.



This would only be true if you are a fascist.





Wow, the group of fascists who hate other fascists calling people that disagree with them fascists.  This seems par for the course for your group.


edit:  Do you not even see what you've done here?  I've explained to you that I disagree with the people you disagree with.  Yet, because I don't side with you, you call me a fascist.  YOU MAKE ME an enemy of YOU, simply because I don't agree with you and your tactics.  Where will this nonsense end?
/edit

Quote:

The only medicine is learning the history of antifascism and/or directly participating in antifascist action.





No, the only "medicine" is for antifa to realize that they don't get their way just because they want it.  YOU are the problem equally or moreso than the group(s) you "protest" against.




:kaneclap:

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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: This is what antifascism looks like. [Re: Tulipslave] * 2
    #25370291 - 08/06/18 01:58 PM (5 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Tulipslave said:
I didn't dodge it.  I refused to answer it.  I'm not going to play your games of hypotheticals here.



Most call that 'dodging the question'. :lol:


Quote:

Tulipslave said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Hypotheticals? Its literally an historical example. Just one that doesnt mesh with your cobbled together ethos of pragmatic nonviolence, so we get "agree to disagree."






Wrong.  Answering the question, which has no accurate answer, opens the doorway to there being a time where his stance on the social-acceptability of violence against others would become acceptable.  It's all fantasy-land, aka hypothetical.



So, let's make sure that we're clear here.

(1) We both agree that, at some undefined point, militantly confronting fascists is appropriate. Here's a post you made earlier stating as much.

(2) It appears that much of the criteria you listed for when we have a serious fascist problem has already happened - yet confusingly, despite this, you are still adamant in your denouncing of any and all militant activity. Here is a post (which you once again dodged) illustrating this.

(3) I suggest we use Nazi Germany as a measuring stick, with which to better guage what criteria must be present before militant antifascism becomes acceptable to you. I chose this example because it is a real world example where we have the benefit of hindsight, and none of the confusion and uncertainty that exists in events as they happen. You refuse to answer.



So, to summarize, you are telling me (and all militant antifascists) that the time to act is not now - but you also refuse (or are unable) to clearly explain what criteria must be present before such a time occurs. And you expect those who are vulnerable and affected by the early stages of fascist violence to be appeased by such an unsubstantial position? Wait, wait, wait - until it's too late.

There's a relevant poem by the German Lutheran pastor Martin Niemoller about the cowardice of German intellectuals following the Nazis' rise to power and subsequent purging of their chosen targets, group after group. I'm sure you've heard it before.

This is why I call the centrist viewpoint the position of the coward. Either one is too cowardly to truthfully examine the reality of the situation, and the possibility that perhaps you may be guilty of support through inaction - or, one is a fascist too cowardly to admit to this belief, and so they must dress up their support for fascism in the dress of "both sides".


Quote:

Tulipslave said:
We have fundamental differences of view on the matter.  Neither is going to change.  /end



You obviously felt differently when you bumped this thread. Guess the line of questions got too challenging - better bow out now before you might have to evaluate your beliefs.


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Edited by shivas.wisdom (08/06/18 03:14 PM)

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: This is what antifascism looks like. [Re: Tulipslave]
    #25370354 - 08/06/18 02:40 PM (5 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Tulipslave said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Hypotheticals? Its literally an historical example. Just one that doesnt mesh with your cobbled together ethos of pragmatic nonviolence, so we get "agree to disagree."






Wrong.  Answering the question, which has no accurate answer, opens the doorway to there being a time where his stance on the social-acceptability of violence against others would become acceptable.  It's all fantasy-land, aka hypothetical.




The answer is a matter of opinion.

At what point in the rise the Third Reich would you personally deem violent opposition necessary, or even acceptable?

Its a simple question.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: This is what antifascism looks like. [Re: qman] * 3
    #25370355 - 08/06/18 02:41 PM (5 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

You're confusing violence with bigotry. You have to make a direct correlation to make your warped view of the world to make sense. 

The problem with your reasoning is that there isn't any direct correlation.

If every bigot was violent, there would be non-stop violence. Obviously, that isn't happening.



I'm not claiming every bigot or fascist is violent. As you say, many (most?) may not ever act on their beliefs in our present social/political environment. Still, sufficient studies confirm a causal connection between hateful ideology and speech to physical violence - take every single study on modern day genocides, for example.

The connection exists. See my first response in this post for why fascist ideology does not provide any redeeming value to society that compensates for the inherent risk of violence.




There's many factors that have connections to violent behavior, that really doesn't mean all of those POTENTIAL connections need to be addressed in any meaningful manner.




What I'm seeing here is someone excusing some causes of violence while simultaneously decrying antifa on the sole basis of them being violent.

Squaring that circle quite nicely my guy.


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Offlineqman
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Re: This is what antifascism looks like. [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #25370701 - 08/06/18 05:41 PM (5 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

You're confusing violence with bigotry. You have to make a direct correlation to make your warped view of the world to make sense. 

The problem with your reasoning is that there isn't any direct correlation.

If every bigot was violent, there would be non-stop violence. Obviously, that isn't happening.



I'm not claiming every bigot or fascist is violent. As you say, many (most?) may not ever act on their beliefs in our present social/political environment. Still, sufficient studies confirm a causal connection between hateful ideology and speech to physical violence - take every single study on modern day genocides, for example.

The connection exists. See my first response in this post for why fascist ideology does not provide any redeeming value to society that compensates for the inherent risk of violence.




There's many factors that have connections to violent behavior, that really doesn't mean all of those POTENTIAL connections need to be addressed in any meaningful manner.




What I'm seeing here is someone excusing some causes of violence while simultaneously decrying antifa on the sole basis of them being violent.

Squaring that circle quite nicely my guy.




I'm not excusing any causes of violence. I'm suggesting that there's so many different causes of violence that's it's impossible to attempt to selectively address a few of them and think it would make any difference in the overall outcome.

Even SW acknowledged that even most people with bigoted ideologies aren't likely to ever be violent.

What Antifa does is similar to the to Bush Doctrine, correct?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_Doctrine

"a strategy of preemptive strikes as a defense against an...perceived future threat"

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,752
Loc: 'Merica Flag
Last seen: 3 hours, 56 minutes
Re: This is what antifascism looks like. [Re: qman] * 1
    #25370820 - 08/06/18 06:31 PM (5 years, 7 months ago)

Is the sky blue? Who can say? There are literally so many colors its impossible to selectively address it.


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Offlineqman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 8 hours, 33 minutes
Re: This is what antifascism looks like. [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #25370862 - 08/06/18 06:47 PM (5 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Is the sky blue? Who can say? There are literally so many colors its impossible to selectively address it.




http://abc7chicago.com/66-shot-12-fatally-in-chicago-weekend-shootings/3892234/

Must address a violent ideology against non-whites with preemptive violence. 

Where's Antifa when you need them? :lol:

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Offlinelowbrow
Paddy Time!!!!
Male

Registered: 09/12/08
Posts: 9,785
Last seen: 4 hours, 49 minutes
Re: This is what antifascism looks like. [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #25375415 - 08/08/18 04:30 PM (5 years, 7 months ago)

Quit calling yourself an anarchist.  You're not.


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Amanita86 said:
Sui is trying to mod right now.  Kinda like a newborn calf tryin ta stand fer the first time ain’t it..

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