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OfflineBrutkkus
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Growing room set-up_ Part 1: Humidity (Used lipa's calculations)
    #24920637 - 01/17/18 12:31 PM (6 years, 2 months ago)

So first want thank to this forum members(especially experienced members like lipa in this thread).In last 2 years I read a lot of good things here(+few books and many videos on the internet) and now want to open this topic so you can review my ideas and calculations and correct it if needed. 
I have an opportunity to use two small buildings for grow room(later lab) on my friend's flower farm,  I finally will make that step to go to bigger room/operation for growing tree oyster.

The farm is in Croatia(EU) and this discussion will be about humidity inside growing room. I will set up 20m2 grow room(220ft2), hight 4m(13ft), good insulated with 10cm EPS  outside/5cm inside with plastic sheeting cover, filled with tree oyster straw logs hanging on steel bars.

Here floor plan with equipment:



I will start with my calculations about humidity and water/hr needed for humidifier.

FAE important for humidity too , so here:

FAE (I go with max 10xFAE for calculation)

Vroom – Vbags = 83,3 - 7,2 = 76,1 m3 (2688 cf3)
10 FAE =  10 x 77,18m3 / 60= 761m3/h (448 cfm)

-Will buy intake fan 8″ (+ use passive exhaust damper 6″) that can exchange min. 530cfm or 900m3/h(771m3/h air + let's say 15% because of losses on installed plastic tubing with holes for better distribution of air in the room and avoiding air pockets).

Next message I start with calculations of Humidity...

Edited by Brutkkus (01/19/18 12:17 PM)

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OfflineBrutkkus
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Re: Growing room set-up_ Part 1: Humidity (Used lipa's calculations) [Re: Brutkkus]
    #24924951 - 01/19/18 06:35 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

Now lets go to humidity calculations in detail:

HUMIDITY


I used:

-this  lipa's calculations

-this formulas

-this chart



Formula:

                    Volume x Air changes hr x Grains of moisture required
H(lbs/hr) =      -----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                    Specific volume x 7000


Vroom = 20,82 x 4,0 = 83,3 m3 (2942 ft3)


USE CHARTS_for grain of moisture

INCOMING AIR(different moths):

1) January 36F / 80% humidity__read charts - grain of moisture =25
2) April 66F / 45% humidity__read charts - grain of moisture = 45
3) August 90F / 40% humidity__read charts - grain of moisture = 85


NEEDED AIR INSIDE ROOM:   

65F / 100% humidity__read charts - grain of moisture = 92


Subtract (needed - incoming):

1)Grains of moisture required = 92 – 25  = 68
2)Grains of moisture required = 92 – 45  = 47
3)Grains of moisture required = 92 - 85 = 7

Now back to formula...

1)Volume(2942) x Air changes(10) x Grains of moisture required(68) = 2000560
2)Volume(2942) x Air changes(10) x Grains of moisture required(47) = 1382740
3)Volume(2942) x Air changes(10) x Grains of moisture required(7) = 205940



CHARTS_specific volume for 65F / 100% humidity_ = 13.5(read on  tilted line)

Back to formula...

Specific volume x 7000 = 13.5 x 7000 = 94500

Formula_ „H“ for all three months:

                            2000560
1) H(lbs/hr) =          ---------- = 21.2 lbs of water
                              94500

                            1382740
2) H(lbs/hr) =          ---------- = 14.6 lbs of water
                              94500

                            205940
3) H(lbs/hr) =          ---------- = 2.2 lbs of water
                            94500



CALCULATION - gallons/hr

(1 gallon of water = 8.35 lbs)


WATER NEEDED TO GET 100% HUMIDITY AT 10 FAE

1) 21.2 / 8.35 = 2.6 gallon/hr (9.9 l/hr)
2)14.6 / 8.35 = 1.8 gallon/hr (6.8 l/hr)
3)2.2 / 8.35 = 0.3 gallon/hr (1.2 l/hr)



So what you think about calculations,  sounds a lot for that size of room, even 12 head ultrasonic(6 l/h) cant supply this much, so I will start testing with 6 FAE  and hope it will be enough for oysters + room will be full of logs, volume of bags will be 10% of room volume, after RR that should help too, can I then calculate with less water needed? All suggestions appreciated

Edited by Brutkkus (01/20/18 09:40 AM)

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OfflineBrutkkus
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Re: Growing room set-up_ Part 1: Humidity (Used lipa's calculations) [Re: Brutkkus]
    #24925863 - 01/19/18 02:46 PM (6 years, 2 months ago)

QUESTIONS ABOUT CHOICE OF HUMIDIFIER

After calculations, max water needed for humidity is 9.9 l/hr(2.6 gph) and that's a lot.  So let's see  first what to add or detract from calculated needed water because of conditions inside GR:

- after testing my GR I hope 6 FAE would be enough and can reduce needed water but  still will need cca 6l/hr(1.59 gph).

- The room will be full of substrates, that means substrates will be 10% of the volume of growing room(Stamets suggest this ratio too) so RR suggests not much to stress about humidity because substrates will partly take care of humidity in the room but how much I can reduce needed water I calculated?

- Not all fog will evaporate dependent on a chosen humidifier, droplet size etc., so here need to increase needed water?


HUMIDIFIER OPTIONS:

ultrasonic inside bucket with fan

1) When they say ultrasonic disc can deliver 5,5 l/h(1.45 gph), that means it need to work all 60 minutes without stop working?

2) Ultrasonic deliver 0,5 l/ hr(0.13 gph), I like  idea to go with multiple single-disc ultrasonics inside the same bucket so when one dies  others still working
...and they have perfect droplet size  5-10 micron,  but after these calculations that would be too many single-disc units needed, problem is that we have a bucket full of water inside GR and that's risk because of mold can show up?

3)If using biggest ultrasonic with 9 disc 2.5l/hr(0.66 gph) or  12 discs cca 5.5l/h(1.45 gph) still  one unit not enough water needed for my room or?


nozzles

4)High pressure misting nozzles system is too expensive and normal pressure misting nozzles can supply much more water than ultrasonic discs, one nozzle deliver 2.3 l/hr (0.6gph) but they make to big droplets ( cca 60 microns) so they make a floor and mushrooms wet even I have 4m(13.1ft) high room that's not enough to  evaporate without making it wet and maybe danger of wet spot bacteria?

...I saw few farms and they use nozzle inside plasting tubing mounted on fan that push fresh air and droplets from nozzle. This grow rooms were big like mine and they grow oyster, but I think thats not option, its only one nozzle and it has place only 20cm inside the plastic tube and cant spread and evaporates completely so it drips a lot of water down the tube?


--------------------
IMO best start for newcomers:

VIDEOS
Let's Grow Mushrooms!

BOOK
Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms

Edited by Brutkkus (01/22/18 09:54 AM)

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OfflineQuadman
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Re: Growing room set-up_ Part 1: Humidity (Used lipa's calculations) [Re: Brutkkus]
    #24926511 - 01/19/18 07:12 PM (6 years, 2 months ago)

First step I would recommend is to drop the ceiling from 13' to 8' or so. That would help considerably. That would take 1000 cu feet off the room.


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OfflineMorePies
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Re: Growing room set-up_ Part 1: Humidity (Used lipa's calculations) [Re: Quadman]
    #24927411 - 01/20/18 07:18 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Quadman said:
First step I would recommend is to drop the ceiling from 13' to 8' or so. That would help considerably. That would take 1000 cu feet off the room.




High ceilings are good for evaporation, but add air conditioning costs. 13ft is a bit high. I'd settle out at 10.

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OfflineBrutkkus
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Re: Growing room set-up_ Part 1: Humidity (Used lipa's calculations) [Re: Quadman]
    #24927415 - 01/20/18 07:22 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Quadman said:
First step I would recommend is to drop the ceiling from 13' to 8' or so. That would help considerably. That would take 1000 cu feet off the room.




Good point, I am thinking that way too, but room is already that high, dropping ceiling make more sense for ultrasonic discs inside bucket because of small droplet size so it need to be on the floor, but if choose nozzles, this high ceiling is helpful because droplets have time to evaporate..

I would like  to go here more to  details about humidity and that maybe will help  people who will have same situation..

- OK now interested after calculation, how much will RRs suggestions hat substrate self(bags-room ratio 1:10) will help to decrease the need for humidity?
- How much of water will not evaporate if using nozzles an ultrasonic disc(lipa talked to add to calculation cca 30% and take bigger ultrasonic disc)?


--------------------
IMO best start for newcomers:

VIDEOS
Let's Grow Mushrooms!

BOOK
Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms

Edited by Brutkkus (01/20/18 09:14 AM)

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OfflineQuadman
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Re: Growing room set-up_ Part 1: Humidity (Used lipa's calculations) [Re: Brutkkus]
    #24927485 - 01/20/18 08:19 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

I know your looking for an exact answer, im not sure.

I would buy the biggest multidisc ultrasonic and hook to a humidistat and see what it takes to get humidity up.
If not enough then I would add the overhead nozzles , but point them downward over the aisle. Then hopefully your not directly misting. These I would put on a timer to allow for evaporation.

As far as RR and bags adding humidity. Sure they add ,but if they are adding then the blocks are loosing moisture. That is not really wanted either.

So basically im tell you to try and see what happens approach.


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Re: Growing room set-up_ Part 1: Humidity (Used lipa's calculations) [Re: Quadman]
    #24927587 - 01/20/18 09:26 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

The higher ceiling would allow you to work with much larger hanging logs, would it not? Obv heavier and awkward but with the reward of a higher yield in the same space. No idea if it would be worth it.

Just my common sense postulating a thought, I really have zero mushroom cultivation experience at all, just researching ideas for a first gourmet grow myself.

-will be following :cool:


--------------------
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OfflineBrutkkus
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Re: Growing room set-up_ Part 1: Humidity (Used lipa's calculations) [Re: NarkedAt90ft]
    #24927700 - 01/20/18 10:18 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

NarkedAt90ft said:
The higher ceiling would allow you to work with much larger hanging logs, would it not? Obv heavier and awkward but with the reward of a higher yield in the same space.
-will be following :cool:



Depends on few things, if nozzles on ceiling they need some space to spread water droplets, but if ultrasonic than maybe I can leave place for one more bag, because my "straw log" will be hanger with tree 70cm(2.30ft) bags, so  theoretically is possible to add one more place for 4th bag..but for now I think I will not overfill it and staw with tree bags on one hanger..


--------------------
IMO best start for newcomers:

VIDEOS
Let's Grow Mushrooms!

BOOK
Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms

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OfflineBrutkkus
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Re: Growing room set-up_ Part 1: Humidity (Used lipa's calculations) [Re: Quadman]
    #24927826 - 01/20/18 11:17 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Quadman said:
I know your looking for an exact answer, im not sure.






Yes I would like to come closer to the amount of water needed with this topic..and 9,9 l/h sounds much but its ok if thats water needed, so maybe here few people can check calculation or have similar room in cubic feets ..and than to see whats reall needed output of misting system



Quote:

Quadman said:


I would buy the biggest multidisc ultrasonic and hook to a humidistat and see what it takes to get humidity up.
If not enough then I would add the overhead nozzles , but point them downward over the aisle. Then hopefully your not directly misting. These I would put on a timer to allow for evaporation.

As far as RR and bags adding humidity. Sure they add ,but if they are adding then the blocks are loosing moisture. That is not really wanted either.

So basically im tell you to try and see what happens approach.




Can agree with this about bags and humidity, so will forget about that influence on humidity.

About humidistat, I am not sure I will have it from beginning even checked that options too. People have problem with sensor and wrap it inside polyfill or RTV silicon or it dies too fast or not read on high humidity..so need to play with that first..for beginning I searched for some good hygrometer and think this is good choice(I think Gr0wer suggest this one) 

hair hygrometer


Sound good, Ultrasonic and nozzles as back up ..I was thinking to add a nozzle to the plastic tube if ultrasonic would not be enough.


--------------------
IMO best start for newcomers:

VIDEOS
Let's Grow Mushrooms!

BOOK
Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms

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OfflineQuadman
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Re: Growing room set-up_ Part 1: Humidity (Used lipa's calculations) [Re: Brutkkus]
    #24927864 - 01/20/18 11:34 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

I think you will have to use a sensor. Main thing is they don't get wet.
Stick it through a plastic cup and silicone to seal. Hang upside down, droplets can't affect it. Sensors are replaceable. Inkbird is about $35 here in the states.


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OfflineBrutkkus
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Re: Growing room set-up_ Part 1: Humidity (Used lipa's calculations) [Re: Quadman]
    #24927914 - 01/20/18 12:04 PM (6 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Quadman said:
First step I would recommend is to drop the ceiling from 13' to 8' or so. That would help considerably. That would take 1000 cu feet off the room.




Good point, I am thinking that way too, but room is already that high, and make sense more for ultrasonic discs because of small droplets so they need to be on the floor, but choose if nozzles this high ceiling is helpful because droplets have time to evaporate, right?

OK now first things that will incrase / decrase  RRs suggesting that substrate take care of humidity

Ok thanks for the tip with cup, so no dropping water on a sensor, the only thing to check is the airflow come to sensor and read it correctly..I guess you have good experience and you tried already..


And I have exaclty this on my list, not expensive humidistat and sensor..

humidity controller_Inkbird


--------------------
IMO best start for newcomers:

VIDEOS
Let's Grow Mushrooms!

BOOK
Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms

Edited by Brutkkus (01/20/18 05:54 PM)

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OfflineQuadman
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Re: Growing room set-up_ Part 1: Humidity (Used lipa's calculations) [Re: Brutkkus]
    #24927974 - 01/20/18 12:30 PM (6 years, 2 months ago)

I don't use a cup. Mine actually hangs directly under my ultrasonic to keep water off.

If you put the sensor almost all the way through it should have good air flow. It's just a matter of setting the humidistat according to how the sensor reads.


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OfflineChwyn
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Re: Growing room set-up_ Part 1: Humidity (Used lipa's calculations) [Re: Brutkkus]
    #24927986 - 01/20/18 12:35 PM (6 years, 2 months ago)

Sorry I dont mean to go off topic but since we're talking about humidity sensors I wanted to get some opinions..

Im particularly interested in using micro controllers hooked to the humidity sensors so I can log data and graph, ect. How reliable are those inkbird sensors? Would they last atleast a few months?
So far I have had a difficult time buying "hobby level" sensors. They seem to be made for light humidity applications like home automation and become uncalibrated easily. I recently found a metal mesh encased sensor that can hold up in the high humidity enviornment but it needs air blowing over it to get an accurate reading.


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OfflineQuadman
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Re: Growing room set-up_ Part 1: Humidity (Used lipa's calculations) [Re: Chwyn]
    #24928136 - 01/20/18 01:14 PM (6 years, 2 months ago)

Mines just hobby, this sensor is close to year and a half old.


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OfflineBrutkkus
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Re: Growing room set-up_ Part 1: Humidity (Used lipa's calculations) [Re: Quadman]
    #24929869 - 01/20/18 06:02 PM (6 years, 2 months ago)

OK thx, then sensors should work, I think its fine if its accurate +-3% rH.


..and I hope there are some people that have an opinion about first three posts about calculations or someone with similar cubic feet room can tell about experience and what works best for humidity..


--------------------
IMO best start for newcomers:

VIDEOS
Let's Grow Mushrooms!

BOOK
Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms

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OfflineMorePies
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Re: Growing room set-up_ Part 1: Humidity (Used lipa's calculations) [Re: Brutkkus]
    #24931149 - 01/21/18 10:58 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

At that temp and fill density, I think your exhaust is conservative, as long as your incoming air is low in c02 it should be fine. They're not cheap, but for tall rooms only growing oysters an aquafog fan/mister combo works well. Or you could make your own with a mid pressure misting system and a humidity tolerant fan. Things are going to get wet, it's a sad fact. The answer is to position your humidity source appropriately. Have you looked into centrifugal humidifiers yet? Hydrofogger is one manufacturer, but there are a lot around.

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OfflineChwyn
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Re: Growing room set-up_ Part 1: Humidity (Used lipa's calculations) [Re: MorePies]
    #24931346 - 01/21/18 12:39 PM (6 years, 2 months ago)

I can vouch for hydrofogger. I have one in a 10Lx8wx7h room and it gets it foggy in less than a minute. They accidentally sent me an extra fogger haha. I was nice and sent it back, they better provide good customer service when I need parts in the future.


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OfflineRolledUhhp
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Re: Growing room set-up_ Part 1: Humidity (Used lipa's calculations) [Re: Chwyn]
    #24932774 - 01/21/18 11:50 PM (6 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Chwyn said:
I can vouch for hydrofogger. I have one in a 10Lx8wx7h room and it gets it foggy in less than a minute. They accidentally sent me an extra fogger haha. I was nice and sent it back, they better provide good customer service when I need parts in the future.





I'm going to be using the same measurements for my FC also!

What are you growing in there? Does that size fit your needs, or would you have gone with something different 1 year later?

How many pounds are you producing per cycle?

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OfflineChwyn
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Re: Growing room set-up_ Part 1: Humidity (Used lipa's calculations) [Re: RolledUhhp]
    #24933228 - 01/22/18 08:30 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

I havent gotten to full production. Im too disorganized but this year may be different. Right now I just fill it as much as I can when I can to sell to friends. I calculated I could do about 40-60lb a week at full capacity. Thats leaving plenty of room to walk around. You could probably get more.

Im having trouble controlling my humidity. Every sensor I have bought so far has broken so now Im trying to just dial in a digital timer.

Right now Im growing lionsmane and king oyster blocks. Later on Im going to go back to phoeniox oyster. heres some pics from last year.




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OfflineBrutkkus
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Re: Growing room set-up_ Part 1: Humidity (Used lipa's calculations) [Re: Chwyn]
    #24933302 - 01/22/18 09:16 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Chwyn said:
I can vouch for hydrofogger. I have one in a 10Lx8wx7h room and it gets it foggy in less than a minute. They accidentally sent me an extra fogger haha. I was nice and sent it back, they better provide good customer service when I need parts in the future.




You have centrifugal humidifier for 5x smaller room. In specification for centrifugal humidifier, they say  that max capacity is 6l/hr(1.59 gph)
..so that means it must work constantly whole hour to deliver this max 1.59 gph, or it take rest time ..I was asking my self if it works all time, is that problem for the engine..so you should buy always with bigger capacity thanyou need?


--------------------
IMO best start for newcomers:

VIDEOS
Let's Grow Mushrooms!

BOOK
Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms

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OfflineBrutkkus
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Re: Growing room set-up_ Part 1: Humidity (Used lipa's calculations) [Re: MorePies]
    #24933425 - 01/22/18 10:09 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MorePies said:
At that temp and fill density, I think your exhaust is conservative, as long as your incoming air is low in c02 it should be fine.




You mean for that much substrate inside GR this fan with plastic tubing should be ok for tree oyster if I have 6 FAE per hour or 10FAE?

Quote:

MorePies said:
They're not cheap, but for tall rooms only growing oysters an aquafog fan/mister combo works well. Or you could make your own with a mid pressure misting system and a humidity tolerant fan. Things are going to get wet, it's a sad fact. The answer is to position your humidity source appropriately. Have you looked into centrifugal humidifiers yet? Hydrofogger is one manufacturer, but there are a lot around.



Here in Croatia most people use nozzles under normal pressure..and if you harvest the mushrooms after misting they really wet, but farmers  leave it almost without water for last day and it looks better, I would like to avoid that but if its only way to mist  than ok..if no wet spot bacteria and  not soggy when harvesting, its fine..

What  you think about calculation, that most needed supply of water in winter of 2.6gallon is realistic for my room or too much??

I found here nozzles that work under normal pressure(droplets cca 60micron, it's like raining) and high pressure nozzles cost 1500usd only for pump..didnt see any middle-pressure solution and whats that for pressure and how much smaller are droplets in microns?

Aquafog..agree about aquafog and hight of the room... but fan is costly..
..and centrifugal humidifier cost cca 600usd, this bigger deliver 1.05gph

hydrofogger

so that could maybe  work this or need two of them?


--------------------
IMO best start for newcomers:

VIDEOS
Let's Grow Mushrooms!

BOOK
Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms

Edited by Brutkkus (01/23/18 04:34 AM)

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OfflineChwyn
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Re: Growing room set-up_ Part 1: Humidity (Used lipa's calculations) [Re: Brutkkus]
    #24933578 - 01/22/18 11:18 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

It also depends how much air flow you do. I use a semi-sealed growing environment and just cycle out all the air a few times an hour. After a few minutes it looks like its raining in my room with he fogger on.


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OfflineBrutkkus
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Re: Growing room set-up_ Part 1: Humidity (Used lipa's calculations) [Re: Chwyn]
    #24935397 - 01/23/18 04:39 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Chwyn said:
It also depends how much air flow you do. I use a semi-sealed growing environment and just cycle out all the air a few times an hour. After a few minutes it looks like its raining in my room with he fogger on.




Of course depends how much air flow, that's why calculation in this post include 10FAE and came to 2.6 gph..of course I hope half of max 10 FAE that will be enough but that's still 1.3gph to manage, so searching checking here now what would be optimal misting option


--------------------
IMO best start for newcomers:

VIDEOS
Let's Grow Mushrooms!

BOOK
Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms

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OfflineChwyn
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Re: Growing room set-up_ Part 1: Humidity (Used lipa's calculations) [Re: Brutkkus]
    #24935542 - 01/23/18 07:20 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

my bad I forgot what OP was lol


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OfflineBrutkkus
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Re: Growing room set-up_ Part 1: Humidity (Used lipa's calculations) [Re: Chwyn]
    #24935678 - 01/23/18 09:02 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Chwyn said:
my bad I forgot what OP was lol



Yes, I can understand because I wanted to start first clearing how close is my calculation from the real need for humidity, but I wrote two longer posts so it can be confusing  hehh..

Thx for your comments..

..and you mention your sensors problems.. Quadman wrote here how it can be managed so it does not get wet..and I heard people wrap it in polyfill or lipa(must say this guy really reliable) said it best works if you silicon metal parts.. wires of a sensor and keep it in front of exit vent so it does not get wet and for better readings..

..I research a little bit about sensors and would do it that way, but for now I decide to go with timer and hair hygrometer and later implement sensor and controller.


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Edited by Brutkkus (01/23/18 09:09 AM)

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Re: Growing room set-up_ Part 1: Humidity (Used lipa's calculations) [Re: Brutkkus]
    #24935833 - 01/23/18 10:31 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Brutkkus said:

INCOMING AIR(different moths):

1) January 36F / 80% humidity__read charts - grain of moisture =25
2) April 66F / 45% humidity__read charts - grain of moisture = 45
3) August 90F / 40% humidity__read charts - grain of moisture = 85


WATER NEEDED TO GET 100% HUMIDITY AT 10 FAE

1) 21.2 / 8.35 = 2.6 gallon/hr (9.9 l/hr)
2)14.6 / 8.35 = 1.8 gallon/hr (6.8 l/hr)
3)2.2 / 8.35 = 0.3 gallon/hr (1.2 l/hr)






Never had to set up a room like yours, so little I know but I find it weird that you need about 10 times less water in Summer than in Winter to keep the humidity levels. The fruiting blocks will lose moisture more quickly, I would say during Summer you will need to mist more often that the value calculated.

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Re: Growing room set-up_ Part 1: Humidity (Used lipa's calculations) [Re: Metacanna]
    #24936121 - 01/23/18 12:23 PM (6 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Metacanna said:


Never had to set up a room like yours, so little I know but I find it weird that you need about 10 times less water in Summer than in Winter to keep the humidity levels. The fruiting blocks will lose moisture more quickly, I would say during Summer you will need to mist more often that the value calculated.




Yes I followed  only, maybe only one sirious calculation of humidity on shroomery and my  winter conditions was similar to lipas example..so expected to be ok

... but when calculated in summer "grain of moisture=68" for summer conditions and my goal conditions inside GR was to close with "grain of moisture=7" when subtracting it..

So I agree, that would be next question about summer conditions even more important maximum water needed for humidifier choosing


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Edited by Brutkkus (01/23/18 12:26 PM)

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Re: Growing room set-up_ Part 1: Humidity (Used lipa's calculations) [Re: Brutkkus]
    #24936320 - 01/23/18 01:48 PM (6 years, 2 months ago)

I'm digging in the same questions as I'm planning a fruiting chamber similar to yours.
So far, I'm inclined into installing a misting system, seems more appropriated and reliable for 20m2 + FCs. Plus it's easy to tweak the installation with more nozzles if required. I can get locally a low pressure system misting kit for 50€-100€. Low pressure operates between 1 and 3,5 bar (15psi - 53psi), my tap water varies between 2 - 3 bars (30psi - 45psi). Like this I could have the misting system working without a pump.
The more expensive pumps have a filter (like reverse osmosis) to diminish the mineral build up on the nozzles. I don't have that but nozzles can be easily replaced. Would it be possible to eliminate the mineral build on an acid bath?

Thing is, how does a low pressure system compares to an high pressure system when growing mushrooms? Thicker droplets, less dispersion?
I noticed some growers use a fan to help dispersing the droplets, that would help.

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Re: Growing room set-up_ Part 1: Humidity (Used lipa's calculations) [Re: Metacanna]
    #24951508 - 01/29/18 04:03 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Metacanna said:
I'm digging in the same questions as I'm planning a fruiting chamber similar to yours.
So far, I'm inclined into installing a misting system, seems more appropriated and reliable for 20m2  FCs. Plus it's easy to tweak the installation with more nozzles if required. I can get locally a low pressure system misting kit for 50€-100€. Low pressure operates between 1 and 3,5 bar (15psi - 53psi), my tap water varies between 2 - 3 bars (30psi - 45psi). Like this I could have the misting system working without a pump.
The more expensive pumps have a filter (like reverse osmosis) to diminish the mineral build up on the nozzles. I don't have that but nozzles can be easily replaced. Would it be possible to eliminate the mineral build on an acid bath?

Thing is, how does a low pressure system compares to an high pressure system when growing mushrooms? Thicker droplets, less dispersion?
I noticed some growers use a fan to help dispersing the droplets, that would help.




Yes, good thing about misting with nozzles on low pressure, easy to get desired water need and you can always add more nozzles..  droplet size is like raining but still work for farms I visited..droplet size is cca 60 microns. Needed droplet size is around 5 micron(thas plus of ultrasonic discs) and you get it with high-pressure pumps but they cost here 2000usd and that's not an option for me.

I am thinking is there some "middle pressure" system, not too expensive but with a pump that make smaller droplets than low-pressure system?? That sounds for me like the best way to go..maybe someone can guide to some product ..link?


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Re: Growing room set-up_ Part 1: Humidity (Used lipa's calculations) [Re: Brutkkus]
    #24951633 - 01/29/18 06:40 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

https://www.aeromist.com/misting-pumps.html

120$ - 150psi pump.

See the difference between low, medium and high pressure systems.



Additionally to the misting system, I will order 10 units of these cheap eBay foggers and connect them to a single AC DC 24V adapter. Let's see if they break in the first week or if they last a little longer.


https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pond-Fog-Machine-Atomizer-Ultrasonic-Mist-Maker-Fogger-Humidifier-Water-HOT-Sale/162853354555?epid=12007739212&hash=item25ead0fc3b:g:9WwAAOSwSwVaVy8V

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Re: Growing room set-up_ Part 1: Humidity (Used lipa's calculations) [Re: Metacanna]
    #24952455 - 01/29/18 02:23 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Good vid to compare, mid pressure pump looks better and in combination with high sealing maybe ok choice especially when I see the price.

About 1 disc pod fogger/ultrasonic, I found one good topic, where they talk about using few 1-head pond foggers on the place of one multiple head pond fogger

..so I didn't use multiple head pond fogger..so after that topic, every head disc is not dying one by one.. it's like when pond fogger dies it shut down and there no humidity?? Only then this topic makes sense to buy more one head pond foggers and when one dies others still working?

Ifs that correct then make sense to buy few one head foggers


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Re: Growing room set-up_ Part 1: Humidity (Used lipa's calculations) [Re: Brutkkus]
    #24953789 - 01/30/18 04:46 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

OK I read many answers about fresh air exchange and  is directly connecting to humidity level inside growing room..so what would be better way to keep good humidity inside room without  using misting system too much..it is better to reduce speed of controller so the fan work 24/7 and do enough air exchanges/hour or better to do it faster for enough air exchanger/hour and cut fan in and out

..what is your experience people for little bigger rooms
..what is a clear winner ..or they are pro and contras?


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Re: Growing room set-up_ Part 1: Humidity (Used lipa's calculations) [Re: Brutkkus]
    #24953864 - 01/30/18 05:58 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Thanks for sharing that topic.
If you have multiple 1 disk foggers instead of a single 5-6 disks fogger even if one or more foggers die overnight you still have the others going, reducing the risk of ruining the yield. Now, what I didn't know and learned in the topic you posted is that usually when they die they blow the AC/DC adapter fuse, in turn the box with multiple fuses is a great idea, that way the adapter still running no matter what. As suggested, probably it's worth to run them on distilled/rain water to reduce mineral build up, thus increasing life span of the transducer. 

For ventilation and humidity:

How often you have to FAE the grow room depends on the species you growing and the amount of fruiting blocks you have. Oyster require more FAE than shiitake for instance. I can't recommend a particular number as I don't have enough practical experience. I have seen growers having the fans on 24/7, others have the fans set to turn on a few minutes every 10 minutes or so. I guess the key point is to ensure too much CO2 doesn't build up inside the fruiting chamber, for us just starting it's painful to spend 100€ in a CO2 meter but it might be the only way to read what's actually happening inside the room. If we can read the CO2 it's easier to know exactly when to FAE.

For humidity I see growers using this: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Inkbird-IHC-200UK-Controller-Humidification-Dehumidification/dp/B018K3RAGU/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1517315745&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=inkbird+humidity ;

Set the humidity you want in your grow room, when the humidity goes below the threshold it will turn on your foggers / misters / humidibucket. The sensor dies after 6 months / 1 year. Replacement sensors cost 30€ for 5 units.
I will set mine like this: I will have 3-4 foggers on 24/7, then add another 3-4 to the Inkbird device to kick extra humidity whenever humidity drops below 75%-80%.

Again, I don't have much experience so don't take my word too seriously.

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Re: Growing room set-up_ Part 1: Humidity (Used lipa's calculations) [Re: Brutkkus]
    #24955828 - 01/30/18 09:42 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Brutkkus said:
OK I read many answers about fresh air exchange and  is directly connecting to humidity level inside growing room..so what would be better way to keep good humidity inside room without  using misting system too much..it is better to reduce speed of controller so the fan work 24/7 and do enough air exchanges/hour or better to do it faster for enough air exchanger/hour and cut fan in and out

..what is your experience people for little bigger rooms
..what is a clear winner ..or they are pro and contras?





So you have a 12ft x 19ft room  with a 13ft ceiling. This is a small room and I would just use either high pressure misters(1000psi or higher) or a centrifugal humidifier.  Low pressure misters are not for mushrooms sorry. Oysters don't like "WET". Your high ceiling gives you an advantage that allows you to use any type of humidifier you'd like.

For air exchange have a fan on minimum setting 24/7 for oysters, just enough to get your exchange rate. Air needs to be moving inside the room at all times. If you were growing other mushrooms like shiitake or eryngii I would recommend cycling the fan only when it needs it and having a circulation fan inside.

Your humidity calculations for summer are pretty low, but I don't know what the outdoor humidity is like in Croatia. If it is high that could be right. It is all about how much you need to add and how cold it is. You wont need much if it is cold. I live in a climate that is around 20-35% humidity most of the year sometimes lower and a temp between 70F and 90F. that's what I am use to.  I have 2 1560sqft grow rooms for oysters and I use one 1hp humidifan in each. I have tall ceilings and this helps a lot with using this style of humidifier. If the ceilings were shorter I would probably have gone with high pressure misters. I also am using a wet wall and the humidity coming off the face is around 70%, higher when it is hotter. This helps in my climate. If i were in a place like Oklahoma or Louisiana or South America this wouldn't work.



Another thing is if the room is insulated or exposed to the sun like a greenhouse.  An insulated room will be easier to maintain the climate. Also if you are using an air conditioner this can rob humidity as well. I can get away with this issue in my setup because the controllers proportionally control everything and can adjust for changes hot or cold.

Ultrasonic humidifiers don't last long enough for a production environment unless you want to buy new ones every year. They also "hog" electricity and are not ideal.

Edited by lipa (01/30/18 10:24 PM)

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Re: Growing room set-up_ Part 1: Humidity (Used lipa's calculations) [Re: lipa]
    #24955864 - 01/30/18 09:59 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Are you fruiting into alternating rooms so you can deep clean one each week? I always enjoy seeing all your builds Lipa. Very clean.

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Re: Growing room set-up_ Part 1: Humidity (Used lipa's calculations) [Re: MorePies]
    #24955914 - 01/30/18 10:18 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

No we have one single room for oysters that can output  from 600-1200lbs a week.  2 flushes going on all the time.  The only thing with this setup is that the water in the wall needs to be flushed once a day and a UV bulb needs to come on intermittently during the day in the reservoir to keep the wet wall fresh and free of organisms. Once a month you can run Phosphoric acid through the system for cleanup..  The wet wall also has a merv 8 prefilter outside that sits against a fence panel attached to the face of the air intake.



We have done a lot of work since these pics were taken. Haven't had time to take more but will when I get a chance. We are working on our pasteurization room and cooler right now.

The second room is used for overflow and indoor stropharia beds.

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Re: Growing room set-up_ Part 1: Humidity (Used lipa's calculations) [Re: Metacanna]
    #24961344 - 02/02/18 07:29 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Metacanna said:
Thanks for sharing that topic.
If you have multiple 1 disk foggers instead of a single 5-6 disks fogger even if one or more foggers die overnight you still have the others going, reducing the risk of ruining the yield. Now, what I didn't know and learned in the topic you posted is that usually when they die they blow the AC/DC adapter fuse, in turn the box with multiple fuses is a great idea, that way the adapter still running no matter what. As suggested, probably it's worth to run them on distilled/rain water to reduce mineral build up, thus increasing life span of the transducer. 

For ventilation and humidity:

How often you have to FAE the grow room depends on the species you growing and the amount of fruiting blocks you have. Oyster require more FAE than shiitake for instance. I can't recommend a particular number as I don't have enough practical experience. I have seen growers having the fans on 24/7, others have the fans set to turn on a few minutes every 10 minutes or so. I guess the key point is to ensure too much CO2 doesn't build up inside the fruiting chamber, for us just starting it's painful to spend 100€ in a CO2 meter but it might be the only way to read what's actually happening inside the room. If we can read the CO2 it's easier to know exactly when to FAE.

For humidity I see growers using this: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Inkbird-IHC-200UK-Controller-Humidification-Dehumidification/dp/B018K3RAGU/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1517315745&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=inkbird+humidity 

Set the humidity you want in your grow room, when the humidity goes below the threshold it will turn on your foggers / misters / humidibucket. The sensor dies after 6 months / 1 year. Replacement sensors cost 30€ for 5 units.
I will set mine like this: I will have 3-4 foggers on 24/7, then add another 3-4 to the Inkbird device to kick extra humidity whenever humidity drops below 75%-80%.

Again, I don't have much experience so don't take my word too seriously.




I has work do around  GR so wasnt at pc.

Yes before I thought is great that you can have multiple ultrasonic disc units and when one die you need only to replace that one
..so when I read this topic I saw that it die whole adapter or fuse and make no sense for me , thats not good deal to invest..if so,IMO  this option with few one head/or  three head ultrasonic units is much better option...
+ if one unit die overnight there is no risk to lose most of a crop.

Or maybe  it would work option with using few adapter with fuses connect to an extension(+ connected small fan) cord that is connected to timer ??

Controller with the sensor will come later for me when I am sure about how many  FAE needed on a timer, that would be nice only to automate humidity with turn on/of let's say on 85/95%..
You mention how many many units you will have, but how big area and hight of room you have?
-------------------------------
And about FAE I will test it of course, should be between 5-10 FAE, only not sure if I already know exact FAE for oyster .. whats better in the sense of retention of humidity inside the room..
..to reduce speed of fans controller so the fan work 24/7 and do enough air exchanges/hour or better to do it faster rotation of fan  and cut fan in and out..or no difference, its only important to have needed FAE..


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Re: Growing room set-up_ Part 1: Humidity (Used lipa's calculations) [Re: Brutkkus]
    #24961442 - 02/02/18 08:50 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

lipa, what is this wet wall you are talking about? I can see the PVC around the opening on the end of the house.


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Re: Growing room set-up_ Part 1: Humidity (Used lipa's calculations) [Re: lipa]
    #24961757 - 02/02/18 11:58 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


So you have a 12ft x 19ft room  with a 13ft ceiling. This is a small room and I would just use either high pressure misters(1000psi or higher) or a centrifugal humidifier.  Low pressure misters are not for mushrooms sorry. Oysters don't like "WET". Your high ceiling gives you an advantage that allows you to use any type of humidifier you'd like.

For air exchange have a fan on minimum setting 24/7 for oysters, just enough to get your exchange rate. Air needs to be moving inside the room at all times. If you were growing other mushrooms like shiitake or eryngii I would recommend cycling the fan only when it needs it and having a circulation fan inside.







Thx for feedback here on public topic Lipa, your posts verry useful.

So about low pressure misters  I agree completely I don't like idea too(even i own them)..farms here mostly use them but I bought their mushrooms and they are little bit wetter then it should be(biggest producer in Croatia have not second, its third class mushroom)
.. high-pressure misters are too expensive for this smaller GR, the whole system cost 2000usd, maybe but only maybe would use middle pressure misters if they can be good enough, but never saw how it looks in reality, only YT..so maybe you or someone saw it how it works and would it evaporate from 13ft ceiling?

About FAE, I will follow this tip to cycle it 24/7 on low settings because yesterday bought fan and guy who makes them said its better to run them that way and now read your tip so I will have it on low but continuously..

..for King oyster, I have plans too but for later after, I was in Asia and checked how they get this beutiful long stem small cap KO and think thats perfect product for restaurants...IMO mushroom cant be tastier and looking better than that style KO.




Quote:


Your humidity calculations for summer are pretty low, but I don't know what the outdoor humidity is like in Croatia. If it is high that could be right. It is all about how much you need to add and how cold it is. You wont need much if it is cold. I live in a climate that is around 20-35% humidity most of the year sometimes lower and a temp between 70F and 90F. that's what I am use to.  I have 2 1560sqft grow rooms for oysters and I use one 1hp humidifan in each. I have tall ceilings and this helps a lot with using this style of humidifier. If the ceilings were shorter I would probably have gone with high pressure misters. I also am using a wet wall and the humidity coming off the face is around 70%, higher when it is hotter. This helps in my climate. If i were in a place like Oklahoma or Louisiana or South America this wouldn't work.



Another thing is if the room is insulated or exposed to the sun like a greenhouse.  An insulated room will be easier to maintain the climate. Also if you are using an air conditioner this can rob humidity as well. I can get away with this issue in my setup because the controllers proportionally control everything and can adjust for changes hot or cold.

Ultrasonic humidifiers don't last long enough for a production environment unless you want to buy new ones every year. They also "hog" electricity and are not ideal.




Humidity is high, First I liked idea about cooling with costeffective  swamp cooler but because of humidity would not be effective.

My calculation for winter temperature and humidity looks like it can be right amount of water with this 2.6gph but this low summer needed amount of water I am not sure because reading "grain of moisture" from the graph, I not 100% sure did I use the right curve and read it right..

We have in winter cold wether around 41F,32F, or sometimes in the night 23F(rH 80-90%)
..in Spring and Autumn 50-60F (rH 45%) and Summer 85-95F(rH 45%)..
..So extreme need for humidity is winter

Average temperature(blue) and relative humidity(red) in Croatia month by month



Great set up of greenhouse on pictures, my 3-5yrs plan is to have something similar only with a lot insulation.


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Re: Growing room set-up_ Part 1: Humidity (Used lipa's calculations) [Re: Brutkkus]
    #24962679 - 02/02/18 07:43 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

high-pressure misters are too expensive for this smaller GR, the whole system cost 2000usd, maybe but only maybe would use middle pressure misters if they can be good enough, but never saw how it looks in reality, only YT..so maybe you or someone saw it how it works and would it evaporate from 13ft ceiling




All I can say is initial cost for growing mushrooms is pricey. If I had your size room and I couldn't spend 2000$ I would get one of the centrifugal humidifiers and set it into the incoming air .

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Re: Growing room set-up_ Part 1: Humidity (Used lipa's calculations) [Re: lipa]
    #24963662 - 02/03/18 08:39 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

lipa, impressive setup!

For you oysters, you indicated you get 600-1200 lbs/week for a 1560 ft2 grow room? How many pounds of substrate do you normally run at a time?


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Re: Growing room set-up_ Part 1: Humidity (Used lipa's calculations) [Re: lipa]
    #24963680 - 02/03/18 08:52 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


All I can say is initial cost for growing mushrooms is pricey. If I had your size room and I couldn't spend 2000$ I would get one of the centrifugal humidifiers and set it into the incoming air .




Thx for tips.. I agree about centrifugal humidifier that is good choice for smaller rooms and practical and no dripping water, so one like this




..but not sure how to centrifugal humidifer "set it into the incoming air"..but agree is maybe best choice for smaller GR if high pressure nozzles to pricey.


I think your humidifier inside bucket is good idea and other good option for smaller GR
lipa_humidifier inside bucket

Or this guy humidifier inside bucket with two outputs for two rooms/greenhouses.. it's interesting because I can  expend to another growing room(280ft2) next to this one I talk about and have the hallway between(possibility for plenum for AC preconditioning, but not ready for that yet)
..this guy has 9 disc pond fogger inside bucket for two rooms but he didn't said how big rooms are..definitely interesting but I guess 9disc pond fogger not enough for 200ft2, and especially for two rooms like that..so need  to play with that

9 disc pond fogger inside bucket for two greenhouses

Edited by Brutkkus (02/07/18 06:15 AM)

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Re: Growing room set-up_ Part 1: Humidity (Used lipa's calculations) [Re: Brutkkus]
    #24985367 - 02/11/18 10:20 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

CONCLUSIONS FOR HUMIDITY

So I had some exact calculations for humidity needed for different seasons.

Most of the humidity needed in Croatia is winter with low temperatures and high humidity 36F / 80%, calculatedneeded water inside growing room =2.6 gph.


We get few good suggestions about different size of grow rooms:

I asked about my smaller room(220ft2 and 13ft high)_CONCLUSION:

- high pressure misting nozzles system (best but expensive)
- low pressure misting nozzles system  can do the job but it is not close to perfect because of too big droplets(50-60 microns) and even people use it a lot (at least here in Croatia, EU), that  droplets will make mushrooms wetter and floor too
- centrifugal humidifiers (good choice if they have enough water capacity for
  your room)
- bigger ultrasonic multidisc + if needed more water need to add misting
  nozzles



Bigger rooms like big greenhouses_CONCLUSION:

- humidifan (better than high pressure nozzles if high ceiling)
- high pressure misting nozzles system(if not that high room)

..so I hope it will be helpful for others too


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Edited by Brutkkus (02/21/18 11:07 AM)

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* oyster mushrooms are easy to grow Mitchnast 6,632 7 05/30/01 09:54 PM
by Mitchnast
* Nice Edible Shrooms that Grow similiar to Cubies DarK_SavioR 5,508 18 07/31/16 06:23 AM
by Lennybernadino
* growing edibles Chibboleth 2,426 4 10/16/02 12:55 PM
by GSAfarmer
* How the hell do you grow this one? (Lepista saeva) armedia 3,941 2 10/25/21 03:52 PM
by mjn56
* Growing Morels without cultures Chief_ 9,155 5 03/04/02 10:25 PM
by Azure
* Post deleted by Administrator Anonymous 2,589 6 08/02/02 06:21 AM
by SumGuy

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