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Offlineqman
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Re: Why does Trump brag about job creation when the numbers weren't very good? [Re: MagicMush123]
    #24905434 - 01/11/18 02:42 PM (7 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
And wages won't be soaring anytime soon because workers have no negotiating power.  One person can't just ask for a raise over their fellow workers and expect to get it without collective bargaining power.  Any company can lose one employee, even in a tight labor market.  Unemployment is never zero.



If the labor market is tighter you work for another company that pays higher wages because demand outstrips supply, that's called negotiating power.

If you don't pay more the worker leaves to work for someone else



But that's not how it works anymore.  Companies today are familiar with game theory and the Prisoner's Dilemma.  If one company pays more to attract labor, other companies will have to follow, and all companies lose.  Instead, companies now use a "going rate" for a particular job.  Sure, if you're the best at your job, you'll get more from either company.

This is evidenced by the fact that wages have remained stagnant over the last 30 years regardless of the unemployment rate.




"Instead, companies now use a "going rate" for a particular job"

Again, you're operating under the premise that there's no shortage of labor. If companies need workers they will hike the wage, that's not the case today. 

"wages have remained stagnant over the last 30 years"

Thanks to globalization, immigration and technology gains.  Do you really think companies were too stupid to keep wages down in the past?  They weren't, the labor market was tighter.

You better tell China about the "going rate" scam used by US companies. :facepalm:  https://tradingeconomics.com/china/wages

Yes, the law of supply and demand still works in China and everywhere else for that matter.



Dude i get what you're saying but that isnt going to happen. More people, more automation, less jobs. Even if for some reaon the labor market is tight. They simply wont raise wages to attract worker's. They already have a temporary foreign worker program for that. Falcon is right. The only way to get fair, higher wages, is worker solidarity. Unions and collective agreements. Unions are the answer. Its been proven agian and again that unions enjoy higher wages and better benefits. Fuck this right to work crap and get on board with unions.




"They already have a temporary foreign worker program"

Exactly, therefore we can't have a tight labor market. 

"Unions are the answer"

I'm not against unions, but what have so many companies done instead of paying union wages and benefits?  They moved out of the US. I understand not every union job can be outsourced, but we can see my point.

Also, unions don't deal with the potential loss of jobs, just look at the EU and their issues with unions.


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OfflinekoodsM
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Re: Why does Trump brag about job creation when the numbers weren't very good? [Re: qman] * 2
    #24905469 - 01/11/18 03:13 PM (7 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Non-union workers still made massive wage gains during that same time span, that's the result of economic fundamentals, not unions.




No. That is unions. Unions even help non union workers because unions force companies to pay higher wages and that mean other companies must raise their wages as well to stay competitive.

I think what you are ignoring is that without somebody rocking the boat, companies will not raise wages on their own - labor shortage or not.


--------------------
Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses, yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
Send these, the homeless, tempest tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.


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InvisibleCowb0yNeal00S
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Re: Why does Trump brag about job creation when the numbers weren't very good? [Re: koods] * 1
    #24906340 - 01/11/18 09:47 PM (7 months, 2 days ago)



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OfflinekoodsM
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Re: Why does Trump brag about job creation when the numbers weren't very good? [Re: Cowb0yNeal00] * 1
    #24906468 - 01/11/18 10:35 PM (7 months, 2 days ago)

Great input Neal


--------------------
Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses, yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
Send these, the homeless, tempest tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Why does Trump brag about job creation when the numbers weren't very good? [Re: koods]
    #24907429 - 01/12/18 10:59 AM (7 months, 1 day ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Non-union workers still made massive wage gains during that same time span, that's the result of economic fundamentals, not unions.




No. That is unions. Unions even help non union workers because unions force companies to pay higher wages and that mean other companies must raise their wages as well to stay competitive.

I think what you are ignoring is that without somebody rocking the boat, companies will not raise wages on their own - labor shortage or not.




If they need more workers which will result in greater profits, they will do what any sensible capitalist would do, hike the wage until it doesn't make any economic sense to do so.


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OfflinekoodsM
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Re: Why does Trump brag about job creation when the numbers weren't very good? [Re: qman] * 1
    #24907452 - 01/12/18 11:10 AM (7 months, 1 day ago)

There are no more workers in a labor shortage. Employers understand that they don't gain anything by raising wages when they will not gain any advantage over their competitors who will simply match those wages. rasing wages does not increase the amount of labor in the short or medium term. It's not like slashing prices, which increases the pool of customers.


--------------------
Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses, yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
Send these, the homeless, tempest tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Why does Trump brag about job creation when the numbers weren't very good? [Re: koods]
    #24907473 - 01/12/18 11:21 AM (7 months, 1 day ago)

Quote:

koods said:
There are no more workers in a labor shortage. Employers understand that they don't gain anything by raising wages when they will not gain any advantage over their competitors who will simply match those wages. rasing wages does not increase the amount of labor in the short or medium term. It's not like slashing prices, which increases the pool of customers.




No two companies are identical and therefore they compete on many different levels, that includes the ability to pay their employees and still remain highly competitive.

What happens to companies that can't match the higher wages required to acquire the needed labor?  They go under.


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InvisibleBodhi of Ankou
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Re: Why does Trump brag about job creation when the numbers weren't very good? [Re: qman]
    #24907672 - 01/12/18 12:52 PM (7 months, 1 day ago)

haahaha when koods hits the 70 mark his dick is gonna go permanently soft and he will have ZERO family members to fall back on.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why does Trump brag about job creation when the numbers weren't very good? [Re: qman]
    #24909579 - 01/13/18 03:26 AM (7 months, 21 hours ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Companies today are familiar with game theory and the Prisoner's Dilemma.  If one company pays more to attract labor, other companies will have to follow, and all companies lose.  Instead, companies now use a "going rate" for a particular job.  Sure, if you're the best at your job, you'll get more from either company.

This is evidenced by the fact that wages have remained stagnant over the last 30 years regardless of the unemployment rate.



Again, you're operating under the premise that there's no shortage of labor.  If companies need workers they will hike the wage, that's not the case today.



No, I'm not operating under the premise that there's no shortage of labor.  And no, if companies need workers they WON'T hike the wage because most every CEO (or the people who work for them) understand Game Theory and Prisoner's Dilemma.  Other companies will follow suit and all companies will lose.  Koods gets it.  It's a simple concept.  And the empirical evidence proves the point.  Quit spouting what the billionaire class wants you to believe.

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
We KNOW this is the case (companies don't raise wages when there is a labor shortage) because wages have been stagnant for the last 30 years, regardless of unemployment.



Thanks to globalization, immigration and technology gains.  Do you really think companies were too stupid to keep wages down in the past?  They weren't, the labor market was tighter.



No, they weren't too stupid to keep wages down.  They couldn't previously keep wages down because of collective bargaining and minimum wage increases.  Again, look at the empirical evidence and pay extra close attention to the time BEFORE "globalization, immigration and technology gains":



The correlation slaps you in the face, yet you HATE real world data as it ALWAYS proves you wrong.  I look at real world data FIRST, and then form my opinions based on what the real world data tells me.


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"Sure, liberal policies appear to be working better now, but you just wait, someday conservative policies will prove to work better" - Most conservatives on this board


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InvisibleBodhi of Ankou
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Re: Why does Trump brag about job creation when the numbers weren't very good? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24909584 - 01/13/18 03:33 AM (7 months, 21 hours ago)

Falcon doing his damnedest to backpedal on his personal dogma when it comes to economics. "oh this stuff wont matter, theres other theories that come into play when this happens, thus we need 90 million immigrants to make society work correctly"


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why does Trump brag about job creation when the numbers weren't very good? [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #24909704 - 01/13/18 05:00 AM (7 months, 19 hours ago)

Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
Falcon doing his damnedest to backpedal on his personal dogma when it comes to economics. "oh this stuff wont matter, theres other theories that come into play when this happens, thus we need 90 million immigrants to make society work correctly"



Where did I say we need 90 million immigrants?  Or any for that matter???

Bodhi doing his damnest to lie so he doesn't look like such a complete fool.


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"Sure, liberal policies appear to be working better now, but you just wait, someday conservative policies will prove to work better" - Most conservatives on this board


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